It gets sluggish after running for about 20-30 min, fuel separator was half full, and priming pump blew fuse, changed fuse and the priming pump, have blown fuel lines to/from tank (no bloackage), now, no power to primer pump connection, checked ground side also, no problem there. Seems like no power to the fuse block…most of the fuse spots aren’t reading 12v, a few do. Any suggestions?
Someone will be along in a second and post a link to the thread showing where to look in the head of the water separator/fuel filter for blocked passages along with other snippets of where you may find two O-rings instead of one - or maybe none at all. Regarding the power (or lack of it) to the fuel pump, post a Serial Number and you are welcome to an electrical system schematic.
A serial number could prove quite useful.
Ftl17696
The priming pump isn’t getting power to the fuse or to the connector at the pump
Try post #4 here... 259D no start w/key will start with power relay I have a 259D (FTL14492) (ESN 8HN5725), with a rather confusing issue. cold: with key no start. key on engine off if you press in the relay it will start no issue cold - warm: will start same with relay, and will kind of start eventually after a few cranks with key and flutter pedal hot... HeavyEquipmentForums
Electrical schematic on the way. Check your messages.
Heymccall, doesn’t look like my setup for some reason, mine cranks fine, just not getting power to fuses or priming pump
Thanks for the electrical schem., but I’ve tried to check power, and not getting it to the fuses in the block for several and this machine only has 180 hrs, purchased it new! Just Saying
What is your dealer doing about it.? That machine should be under warranty
With several fuses in the fuse panel not having power, check the fuses under these covers. Circled.
If you are not getting power to one half of the fuse panel that looks most likely to be a failure of a power module relay or the fuse that supplies it. Look on Page 8 of the schematic, Grid C-11. There are two fused relays at that location. One outlined in red feeds the bottom half of the fuse panel via wire 112-C64. The other one, outlined in blue, feeds the top half of the fuse panel via wire 112-C63. As HMC said, check the 20A fuses that live right next to those two relays and/or swap the relays over. If power disappears to the other half of the fuse panel but comes back to the half that didn't have power before, you've found your culprit.
Out of warranty by the years
Sorry I'm used to machines having 180 hours on the clock by the end of the 2nd week of ownership. Back to the schematic it is then.......
I’ve checked those 6 fuses behind the block, all are good
Swapping the relays does nothing to help the situation, those three relays are all the same numbers
And that's why I suggested swapping them around, because they are identical makes it possible without anything going bang. Back to the schematic. At this point go looking for power. Pull out two relays, the one in the centre and the one on the right. They are the two that feed the two halves of the fuse box. Test for power at Pin 30 (circled) of the connector in the cab firewall into which the relay fits. The back side of the relay where the terminals are should have Pin 30 marked on it to help you figure out which one it is. there should be power on Pin 30 of all three of those relays so long as the battery is connected.
My relays are top to bottom set up, but I will do that in the morning, if you don’t mind.
Once again, thank you for replying, but that’s not my set up for some reason
it’s common for the layout on the machine to be different to that on the schematic. I suggest that you can identify which relay is which by using the schematic to identify the wire numbers & colours. For each relay the wires will be slightly different. It could easily be that the main power relay (the one on the left in the schematic) is located elsewhere.
If you can post a photo of your relay setup that will help us to help you.
I will post photos of front and back in the morning
Nige, can you forward a copy of schematic to me?
So, this morning, all fuses are getting 12v as well as all 3 relay pin 30 getting 12v, but no power to the plug connection for the priming pump.
I keep seeing "mine don't look like that". The image I posted earlier is from my 262D3, and is the same as yours, save my image only has two relays. Yours has three. I think the issue here is that you haven't lifted the cab, as my image is the back wall of the cab, after the cab is tilted up. I confirmed this after Nige sent the machine specific schematic. #47, 48, & 49. You are looking behind the cab, right?
Yes, behind the cab, backside of fuse box, was saying “mine doesn’t look like that”, due to having 3 relays and more cartridge fuses to be specific, but your picture may be misleading to my eyes
OK, looking at wire colours coming out of the 3 relays in your photo above it's easy to identify which is which. They are exactly as they are laid out on the schematic. The relays supplying the two halves of the fuse panel are the centre and the RH ones. I'm not sure I completely understand. Does that mean you have power back to both halves of the fuse panel now.?
Now, as we chat, the fuses are barely getting readings, earlier this morning I was getting full voltage
HMC, I have done that repeatedly, there’s no power going to the priming pump, it’s supposed to be clicking while it’s priming. I’ve check the voltage going to the plug and the is no power.
On your photo there are some weird "colours" on some connectors around the relays. A sign of condensation/corrosion maybe.? Open everything up, get in there with aerosol contact cleaner as a start. This situation would be especially true on a 5 year-old machine with only 180 hours on it.
The whitish color is from the marker as a inspection check. The have green and white marks all over fittings, connections etc
I’m getting 10.6 v at the 3 terminals and buss bar
What do you measure across the battery temrinals.?
11.91
11.91
Two things IMO. 1. Your battery is goofed. Should be 12.6-12.7v when full charged. 2. You have a major voltage drop somewhere in the system if you are losing 1.3v between the battery and the fuse panel. Back to my previous comment about corrosion/contamination.
Well, now I’m taking the fuse block off to change a stud that I broke off, and trying to get the stripped Phillips head out of the front of the fuse block…. Not a good day
I understand your frustration but the problems you mention you have to fix are probably also as a result of corrosion.
Got the fuse block back together and still no power to the fuel priming pump
Have you now got full (battery voltage) power to both halves of the fuse panel.? Have you charged/replaced the battery.?
It’s still sketchy at the fuses, battery is good
I’m only getting 6 or so volts to some of the fuses
Good as in what voltage exactly.? Back again to that word that no-one shall utter - corrosion…. How far from away the battery do you have to go to see a voltage on your meter that is more than 0.1v below what you measure across the battery terminals.?
I has to wonder, where are you grounding your multimeter when voltage testing? However you have to rig it, the multimeter ground needs to be on the battery negative. If that then shows good voltage at the fuse panel, then R&R the ground strap at the back of the cab, making sure all contact surfaces are clean from corrosion.
I’m touching the red pin at the priming pump and the black(ground) to the battery and no power.
I’m not getting good voltage to the fuse block
No argument over fuel pump not having power. The grounding the meter to the battery negative was in regards to the low voltage at the fuse panel.
11.76 v at the battery terminals, behind the cab on the fuse block studs, reading 11.5 when key is on, (ground is attached to the battery ground). Also the 3 studs below the fuse block reading 11.7 same as battery
Amuse me...leave lap bar up, and turn to CRANK and then release to RUN. Does the pump now come on?
No
No
found the problem, the pin that plugs into the back of the fuse block to accept the fuse leg in the front, needed to be spread open to put more pressure on the fuse leg
So all good now or are you still having the intermittent low power issues.?
Not sure, going to run it a lil tomorrow and see.
Still running sluggish after about 20-30 minutes
Back to fuel system then. To start with......... Have you replaced the screen in #7.? 416-5884 is the Part Number. See this thread for in-depth diagnostics - HeavyEquipmentForums
Yes, it’s new, it came with the new priming pump. It primes fine and filled the water separator as it should have
I thought you said that the water separator bowl was only half full when you had the problem with the power loss.? Is it still the same.? It may be full when you first start up but what is it like when it becomes sluggish.? See the link I posted above. Refer to the illustration of the fuel filter in Post #20 on Page 1. Remove the entire fuel filter assembly from the machine, remove the element, then finally remove ALL the fuel line fittings and blank plugs from the head. Clean each of the passasges in the filter head using either compressed air or by pushing a length of wire through it. Then make sure all the fittings are clean by blowing through each one in turn. Reassemble everything and see how you go.
The fuel separator wasn’t filling due to the bad fuse/priming pump, I was hoping that was the issue, but when it was running sluggish, I checked the separator and it was full.
I would pull the separator anyway and clean the head. It's another box ticked. Also don't forget to check the O-Rings in the head. Again the thread linked above touches on that subject also. @heymccall posted some info regarding what he found. The next step would be to drain any water & sediment from the fuel tank. That's the logical place to start when diagnosing any fuel issue.
I’ll try that tomorrow morning
Removed filter, head and lines, and fuel drained, all good, still sluggish after 20-30 min
OK, time to get into the electronics. Do you have the Advanced Display (digital gauges) panel on the RH side of the cab.?
Yes
I take it that when the engine power loss occurs there are no messages regarding Diagnostic Codes or Events appearing on the screen at that time.? None of the digital gauges suddenly reading "weird".? Press the soft key located directly under the "settings icon" (#40) on the screen. That should get you into the Main Menu. Scroll and find the "Service" section and then to the "Diagnostics" sub-menu. AFAIK it should have 4 sub-sections - Active Diagnostic Codes, Logged Diagnostic Codes. Active Events, & Logged Events. First check for any Active Diagnostic Codes or Events. If there are none then go to the sub-menu for the Logged Codes/Events. Take a note of everything that is listed there, noting also the hour meter reading at which the Code/Event occured. Post back with your findings.
No active events, logged events are E459-2, E875-2, E876-1, No active diagnostics, logged diagnostics are 653-1 engine 652-3 engine 653-3 engine 41-4 machine 91-3 machine 144-5 machine 346-5 machine 350-3 machine 458-3 machine 458-4 machine 1627-5 machine There are not any clock time reading on any of the alerts
I was afraid of that. I think maybe ET would be the only way of relating Codes/Events to Diagnostic Clock hours, bugger. Starting with the Events. E875-2 is low system voltage, E876-1 is high system voltage. Could be an indication of an alternator starting to go on the fritz or nothing more than a battery connection that needs to be removed, cleaned, reinstalled & tightened. You should do that anyway as a next step. I left the doozy for last. E459 is a "power mismatch" Event. Sometimes this can be so serious that the engine won't even start. I have something regarding E459 that I'll send to you on a PM.
Not sure when the codes appeared, but I’m leaning on the electrical having been when changing the fuse block/disconnectin connections, when I was spraying the contact cleaner
The three in the engine that I'm going to dicsuss below are created from within the Engine ECM, so very unlikely that they are related to you messing with the wiring, which I assume you did with the key off. Most or all Codes/Events will only register when the key is ON. These three below are specifically related to the E459, or at least I am reasonably certain that they are, and the 2nd one should explain your loss of power........... 651-3 TWV1 Driving Circuit Error. Battery voltage is normal. Open circuit of discharge in ECM 652–3 TWV4 Driving Circuit Error. During injection. Engine derates 25%. 653–3 TWV2 Driving Circuit Error. CPU is normal. EGR stops. So in summary remove/clean/reinstall all the battery connections, repeat with all the ground cables you can find (I think there are 6 in total) and do the specific stuff I sent you related to the E459 Event.
Do you have a diagram where the six grounds are located?
They're on the schematic I sent to you which is searchable. Go to the schematic on Page 8 and search for "GND" or "GROUND" using the Acrobat search function. Locations such as the example below will pop up. Hover your cursor over the Hyperlink and click, it will take you to an illustration (on Page 16 on this example) of where the ground strap is located on the machine. Hover your cursor over the "35" hyperlink and and click again; it should take you back to the same location on the schematic from where you originally started. The ground strap locations I found were 35, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, and 164. One of them on the engine block you will be checking as part of the E459 issue. Also check the engine ECM which may have its own short ground strap from the ECM body to one of the mounting bolts.
All I had was my phone, thanks
Ah, I see. In that case you would be best to download the Adobd pdf document on to a PC or laptop and open it from there.
Did you get any further yet.? I have a feeling that one or more of the high-voltage injector driver circuits inside the ECM are breaking down when the ECM warms up.
I haven’t checked the grounds, (been busy), but I’m not thinking that’s the issue.
It's simply one of the diagnostic steps on the way to finding the root cause. I agree that there is a chance it's probably not the issue but unless you have cleaned all the grounds and ticked the box the process can't move one. I'm trying everything I know here to avoid you having to buy a replacement $2k ECM, but if you want to shell out for one right now knock yourself out, don't let fear stop you..........
I understand process of elimination, I’ve got the grounds on the schedule for the weekend
Got the ground checking on the schedule for the weekend
Grounds cleaned with contact cleaner, same issue still
While you were working on that I was trying to find more info on the Diagnostic Codes that were recorded in the Engine ECM and posted on the previous page. Thanks are due to HEF member @ahart for his suggestions & assistance. 651-3, 652-3, & 653-3 are SAE J1939 Diagnostic Codes as opposed to Cat Datalink (CDL) Diagnostic Codes. I suppose this is what comes of Cat purchasing a proprietary engine from an outside supplier in which the electronic system does not conform to the standard CDL diagnostic protocols we all know & love.......... In short those three Diagnostic Codes are open circuits registered in either the wiring harness or in the solenoid coil of the fuel injectors for cylinders 1, 2, & 3 of the engine. Please see the attached troubleshooting procedure, you will need to work through the Steps in Table 6 on Page 9 for "all other Codes". You will also possibly need to refer to the electrical schematic that I sent to to you a while back and also the the appropriate abridged injector schematic and tables on Pages 6/7.
Mine isn’t having problems starting, when I say it loses power and is sluggish, it loses horsepower. Looked like the last schematic and download was if it wasn’t starting.
I didn't see that anywhere, and I just read the document right through again just to make sure.... On Page 1 for all four of the -3 Diagnostic Codes (651 thru 654) it reads:- Conditions [under which the Codes will occur] - Engine is running . Battery voltage is normal. Occurs during injection. CPU is normal. Notes [aka sypmtoms] - Open circuit occurs eight times or more. Engine derates. EGR (aftertreatment) stops. Intake throttle is open 100 percent. Warning Level 3. Other injectors continue to operate, which will cause increased vibration. I think what is happening is that there is a defect in the injector wiring harness that only occurs when the engine is warmed up. This is confirmed by the fact that you can run 20 minutes from cold before the engine derates. The problem could also be in the solenoid coils of the injectors but it would have to be 3 separate faults, one for each of injectors #1, #2, & #3. This is less likely but still possible. I would suggest to carry out the troubleshooting procedure when the engine has been warmed up because this is the only time the fault occurs. Refer to my post above re troubleshooting "Table 6". Be careful of hot engine components and wear gloves.
Guess I’m lost, the above schematic is about engaging the starter and engine not starting.
I don’t believe I was sent the entire troubleshooting attachment, I only see 3 pages and no Table 6
Nevermind, it was downloading somewhere else
You found "UENR3423-23 Injector Solenoid Test"..?
yes, found it
Cgray! Did you ever fix this issue? We are having the same exact problem of our cat 259D losing power after warms up. It will be great to see a solution. Our CAT259D is very close proximity serial as yours.
I have not fixed the issue, it had the same problem several years ago (about 3 yrs old and only 130 hours). They said it was an injector and they changed it, I don’t run it long enough daily to see if that actually fixed it. It started doing the same thing again about 180 hrs. I’m not convinced it’s an injector issue. Keep me posted on what you find out. Good luck
Ok thank you for your reply, at least we can cross the injector off of the list. Our machine has only 450hrs!
I'd be nterested to hear the thinking behind that statement.
It was based on Cgray’s comments that he doesn’t think its injectors. If you think it is the injectors, please let me know the part numbers that I can order and my buddy has a car shop and can replace them.
Just because it wasn't the root cause of a problem on one machine doesn't mean it cannot be the root cause of a problem on a different one, albeit of the same model. Before loading the parts cannon and emptying your wallet, to paraphrase the IKEA instructions, "some diagnosis required"........
I agree, I just don’t know where to start to diagnose or even how ☺️
Sorry, wrong thread.
Got it fixed, it was two injectors were bad, see my write up below if interested 2019 CAT 259D Lose Power after warm up Hi fellas, we have 259D and when we use it for a while like 1hr later it will slow down if it has just a bucket, but will crawl if any attachments like power rake on it. It operates like a champ before this happens. Machine serial: FTL21717 We have the following event codes present E459-2... HeavyEquipmentForums