I have a 2003? 216 cat ski steer 4nz02280 that is having some fun issues with the seatbelt light and parking brake coming on after about 1 foot of movement. The machine starts up great every time. The seat switch had been bypassed by the previous owner, and it still looks good. The safety bar switch seems to be working fine as well. The machine has been working fine like this for 3 years that I've owned it. I can start the machine, seatbelt light goes out after a second and I can disengage the parking brake. I'm able to drive maybe a foot before the seatbelt light flashes and the parking brake flashes and the machine stops moving. Engine is running. If I restart I can sometimes move it again about a foot before it stops again. If I just sit there and can disable the parking brake it will also start flashing after about 20 seconds. I have noticed recently that the controls seem extra jerky or that could be me as I don't use it a lot. Its also been smoking a bit more when in use. Coupled with the seatbelt and parking brake problem I'm thinking its the ECM? yikes! Any thoughts on this? Anyone to recommend for repair? I'm just a homeowner using it for small jobs around the house. Any help would be appreciated! located in Rockford MI.
First up kudos for posting a Serial Number. It makes things so much easier. Not surprisingly we've been here before...... Click this LINK for a thread where what sounds to me like the identical symptoms to yours were discussed and subject to at-length troubleshooting. What you will need in addition to an appropriate electrical schematic are the documents attached below because they are a little different for your machine than they were for the 226B on the linked thread. Keep an eye on your messages. I'll send you a schematic. Once you have gone through the linked thread and had chance to look at the schematic come back and post any additional questions you might have.
User ‘Nige’ and other very seasoned cat veterans will jump in soon. I’ll spare you the lecture on bypassing safety devices on these machines. It is very dangerous. Now- while the situation that I experienced with my 2000 226 was different, it had some similar issues. You can search my posts to see what I experienced. Nige and others will guide you to some cat documented testing proceedures. You will need a wiring diagram to start. Then a crash self taught course on reading cat wiring diagrams. A couple of great ytub video’s are out there. Remember this, when reading cat wirining diagrams for these vintage machines; the wire number is printed on each wire. Regardless of the color, the numbers are consistant and make it easier to trace both in the diagram and on the machine. Like my 2000, your 2003 is an old machine. As such, things are brittle and rusty. Keep that in mind while you gingerly remove, unbolt and disconnect things. Good luck!
Thank you! My apologies, I should have searched for a similar thread first. Duh. And yes, indeed, the seat switch is an issue I need to address. I hadn't known it was bypassed until I began searching for the cause. Looks like I have a lot of reading to do! Thanks again for the help! I'll report back after I get a chance to check more things. The machine is off at my brother's place, which makes it more fun to diagnose.
A quick comment about the seat switch just so you understand. If it is bypassed then under certain condtions the implements can be operated while nobody is sitting in the seat. In the worst of circumstances people have been crushed by the lift arms coming down unexpectedly.
Let us know how it goes. Ask questions here- and learn from these guys. I am a nube myself and these guys walked me thru things. I fought an intermittent interlock issue (flashing seat & bar light causing no propel) for four months. Within a few of hours of joining; these guys had dialed-in on where to go and what to look for. The serial number specific diagrams and test procedures are paramount in tracing this down.
Thanks for the replies so far. And yes I appreciate the safety of having working seat switches. I plan on fixing it once this is solved. So far working through renr2864-05 on step 6, checking contact 29 to contact 24 I read 20 ohms. However I forgot I had the work tool detent coil disconnected. I realized that after coming home. Doh! If the machine is cold, I can have control of the drive and boom for about 30 seconds. Then the lights start flashing. Typically in sync but somethings the seatbelt and parking brake alternate. If I shut down and restart I get control again for about 10 seconds. restart, I get control for a short time then flashing again. After about 5 restarts it immediately flashes the seatbelt and parking light. I'll go back later and check. The ECM looks great, No damage at all.I'll have to take it apart soon I guess.
Somewhere in that thread I linked are a number of posts where it was discovered that the test procedure was WRONG. It wouldn’t surprise me if RENR2864 had the same error. Be warned….
Okay, that makes sense. Same stumbling block so to speak. So I'm measuring two coils in series! So yeah. I'm thinking module again. Oh well. To send for repair or just buy a remake? Even amazon sells them!
I suggest that you need to have another read through the earlier-linked thread starting from Post #25 on Page 2. The error was confirmed in Posts #55 & #56 on Page 3. Before you go condemning a high-value component such as an ECM I suggest you make sure you've done all the relevant testing and done it right. If you want a recommendation of a place to buy a replacement ECM drop a PM to the fella who created that linked thread. Whether or not his purchase option is still available under today's import regulations to the US I don't know. FYI a Reman ECM is likely priced around $3k from a Cat dealer.
I will reread the thread, good advice. On cats online store the part is this: https://parts.cat.com/en/michigan/154-4233 almost 6K. That's crazy. I wish there were an easy way to bypass and test before spending money on repair or a remake.
The only way I know is to get the loan of a known good ECM for testing purposes. Also there is a 10R8097 Reman control available at about half the price if my memory serves me correctly. The guy on the other thread got an aftermarket replacement for somewhere around $1k.
Does the 154-4233 module control anything on the engine at all with the 216 machines?
Not exactly the engine per se, but it is tied into the start relay circuit and receives power from the key switch when said switch is in the ON position. Follow wire #307 from the key switch into the Interlock Control and then wire 306 out of the Interlock Control to the start relay. Provided that the engine starts and runs that side of the Interlock Control would appear to be working correctly.
Thanks for the help. The Machine starts up flawlessly every time. That has never been an issue. Wires checked fine. I did try a replacement ECM module from amazon. It arrived in 2 days. No programming needed. I installed it and experienced the exact same issues. So my ECM seems fine. Would air in the hydraulic lines cause this issue? I had replaced the fan motor a month ago and thought I bled all the air out. I had talked to catepillar and asked if there are codes to read and there aren't. I'm lost at this point.
Just an additional bit of info: When I was testing it yesterday I was able to run both the drive and the boom. Then after the lights flashed and I had to restart, it only worked the boom. Very odd to me
Maybe it is worth pointing out that the Interlock Control you acquired through Amazon is not guaranteed to be in working order. IMO the only way to rule it out is to get hold of a "known good" one, even just for testing purposes. This usually involves borrowing one from a donor machine which I understand is not as simple as it sounds.
Going back to this comment. Personally I think it might pay you to dig deeper into the issue of wiring harness integrity and the test steps from REHS2864. Maybe it would help for you to go through those test steps again in order and post your results. Please bear in mind that in Step 6 where it states "Measure the resistance at the wire harness connector from contact 29 (wire H416-GN) to the following contacts: contact 1, contact 11, contact 13, contact 24, contact 42, contact 47, contact 58, contact 60, contact 62 and contact 70", DO NOT TEST between contacts 29 and 24. You will get spurious results. Also bear in mind the text error in Step 8 that should read " CHECK THE CIRCUIT OF THE WORK TOOL PILOT SOLENOID FOR A SHORT TO + BATTERY Measure the resistance at the wire harness connector from contact 68 wire 975-WH to the following contacts: contact 1, contact 11, contact 13, contact 42, contact 47, contact 58, contact 60, contact 62 and contact 70."
This is a bit winded but worth mentioning. Have you carefully inspected the machine chassis to frame and chassis to cab ground points? Including straps, lugs and landing studs? Nige or someone with machine specific knowledge will need jump in here for clarification. But on my 2000 226, there are two significant ground points. On one end you have a large braided strap sinched down on a ground stud. On the other end of these straps; it also has a number of smaller lugged conductor grounds sinched with the braided strap lug. Granted your symptoms are somewhat different, grounds could be a contributing factor. My machine would sometimes start and operate perfectly. Then suddenly, it would start and not move. Or suddenly it would stop moving. Then other times it wouldn’t do anything. Not even console lights would illuminate. It turned out that these ground attachments were significantly rusted and oxidized. In my case, the upper braided ground strap itself was also deteriorated. And the lug connections on each end were compromised by oxidation. If your 2003 is similar to my 2000; among other things, each of the ECM interlock safety components on my machine are individually grounded in these two locations. I initially called myself inspecting these grounds. But it wasn’t until I actually removed the nut and washers on the 4 ground studs, that I was able to identify the issue. Thick paint was hiding the rust and oxidation. BTW, if either of the large ground straps are brownish gray and kind of powdery brittle, it is bad. Clean the connections thoroughly and apply a no-ox grease to ‘all’ surfaces. Clean stud threads, sinch nuts & washers and apply no-ox. And as HarleyHappy suggested, star washers work well in this application.
The alternative method of proving the Operator Interlock Control is to install either (or both) of the controls you have on to another machine that is known to work correctly and see how they perform.
@Jointery - do you have any photos of the affected areas that might help the OP.?
Just had one the other day, No Start, body ground hiding under a frame ground broken off. Those flat braided straps can be clean on the outside, but the braid hiding inside can be green and unseen. I could not fix the one in place for the guy, but putting in a new cable resolved it all. Rust hiding under bright paint is another good reminder. Simon C
Attached are pictures of the two locations where these grounds are located on the 226. Sitting the machine- Top side cab to chassis ground over your left shoulder. You may or may not need to raise the cab to gain adequate access for cleaning and inspection. (This where I found a bad braided strap). The lower ground is located inside the engine compartment. Open the back door and look down to your left near the frame. You will see two studs and a short braided strap. On one stud you will see the smaller grounds along with the braided ground. (these connections were rusted/oxidized on my machine)
Thank you all for the great advice. I just need to find someone near Rockford MI with a 216 to test with! I'm assuming the module doesn't need to be coded to the machine then if I can test that way. I will check the grounding straps again. Thats a really good point about the visual check not good enough. In the pinball world, we always tell people to check fuses with a meter, not visually. Shame on me!
Oh. And the machine has started 100% of the time. That has not been an issue.
The list of machines that use the 154-4233 Interlock Control is much longer than just a 216. Below is the list of early "A-Series" machines.
And here are the B & B2-Series machines. All use the same P/N of Interlock Control. Any one of this humungous list will do as a test mule,
Nige, Thanks for the list. I hadnt realized so many machines used that same part, wow! I am on the hunt for a machine to test in, thank you. I did retest the module I got from amazon and it acts almost identically to the current one I have. Grounding points were checked, cleaned and redone. I metered everything before and after and had/have good grounds everywhere. Grounding straps are all in good condition. While testing I experienced a situation where the boom wouldn't work but I had movement. That was odd.
The possibility still exists that it could be bad. There is a reason that OEM controls cost what they do and knock-offs are available at 20% of OEM price. Anecdotal evidence suggests that well over 50% of aftermarket controls are bad right out of the box. Remember - "New" only means never tested in operation, not "guaranteed to work." If you study the electrical schematic carefully and the names on the various pins you will find that the Interlock Control interfaces with both the drive system and the implement system. e.g. Pin 13 is for the parking brake solenoid and Pin 29 for the Transmission solenoid. That being the case and your "on again, off again" symptoms that screams wiring to me. Instead of testing the continuity or resistance of a particular wire with a multimeter (as per the requirements or RENR2864) try testing it with a fused 5A test light connected to one end of the wire and whatever is the other end of wherever you are testing hooked to machine frame ground. Often a wire or wires (especially on an older machine) can behave very differently when they are asked to pass 5A of current instead of a few milliamps which is all the multimeter puts through them to test for continuity. You can manufacture your own test light quite with a regular automotive lamp holder with a 60W lamp installed in it and an inline fuse spliced into one of the pigtails.
I was waiting for you to bring out the intermittent problem finder in a harness. ( 5 Amp Test Light ) . Worth mentioning that I have run mine through my meter and watch the amps. If you suddenly are more in current, then you have something stealing from the wire being tested, or if it is running low on amps it points to a wire that has degraded internally which after enough years all wires start to turn blackish in coulour and don't conduct like when they were bright copper. Have seen some other Cat Skid steers that have the tiniest flat braided ground strap that goes if I recall correctly under one of the mounting studs. How would a guy know if one of them is not corroded or the section that goes into the controller is oxidized inside. By stabbing the case of the controller and stabbing the center of battery ground with the multimeter leads a person could see if that little strap is no good. ( too much voltage loss on ground side ) Have to agree with what you said about faulty out of the box aftermarket controllers. Have read enough about them on this site. Simon C
If you had a moment, while testing, where boom didn’t work but did, then that leads me to believe it a wiring integrity problem. Either current or ground or both. I am skeptical if this module is the problem now.
Thanks all. I really, really appreciate it. I will rig up a tester with a decent load on it and monitor the amps when testing pins 13 and 29 And thanks for the great pics Jointery!! So using the lamp probe, the wires all check out fine. For fun I started testing points in the fuse box and noticed some of the circuits that turn on with the key were lighting the bulb pretty dimly. I found that odd because I had tested the voltages before. Even with the voltmeter I was only seeing 5 volts with the engine off, 6.7 with the engine running. I had tested the voltages earlier when starting this but that was with a meter, no load. So the lamp probe helps. Checking the Direct Current Magnetic Switch I see 12.8 volts going in and only 5.2 coming out when the engine is off. 6.7 when the engine is running. https://parts.cat.com/en/michigan/3E-9171 What an expensive part! lol. Cat!! Sheesh The low voltage would explain the interlocks erratic behavior and the erratic locking/unlocking of the boom/drive. The poor solenoids aren't getting full voltage. Any thoughts? Is that part fixable? it looks pretty well sealed in its can.
It appears as though you have two alternatives. Genuine new OEM replacement part or aftermarket. Even aftermarket it comes up at $265. Apparently these switches are prone to failure if the terminals are side-loaded with either large diameter cables (I imagine 4-8 SWG) or large numbers of smaller diameter wires.
What a switch will do under load versus just measured without load reminds me of a hard lesson I learned in a fuse box years ago. Tested all the fuses with a Fluke meter and all good. No power down stream of 1 fuse. Decided to use test light to recheck the fuses, and look and learn came into play, 1 fuse had only power on 1 side. It had blown and poorly re-welded itself enough that the low impedance multimeter read full voltage. It would not light the test light. 3 hours and 1 fuse later problem was fixed. Simon C
Compliments on your progress! Have you by chance inspected the back side of the fuse/relay panel? (And the ground) you are looking for charred and/or green living things. Nige mentioned this to me early on in my adventure. It sounds like that you are definitely hot on the trail of your problem. When my machine went flaky, initially it threw a low voltage code on the headlight circuit. I was able read low voltage across the power and ground pins of the light circuit while turned on… but 12 volts turned off. Replaced ‘all’ fuses and relays in the fuse box, and the light switch as well. All without doing a formal load test... But the switch was charred on the back and it was sticking. (Overheated) Money not wasted, but the problem was not resolved. It wasn’t until I heard a relay chattering that I realized low volt/current was at play. Had a Kioti tractor do this to me last year. Relay chattered lime crazy! That machine was in pieces for two weeks… It turned out to be crystalized copper ring lugs on the battery hot and ground cables. Never seen that before until then… Interlock/ECM’s no like low voltage…neither do the relays that connect the circuits to the ecm pins…
like crazy
My Kubota spends half its life outside. The damn fuse box has a terrible habit of corroding in the back where you can’t see it. Every couple of years, I have to remove it and sandblast the back connections and slather then in NoOx.
So I installed the catepillar part for the great price of $340 and the skid steer is working great so far! I was only able to run it 1/2 hour as I didn't have any more time, but before that I could only get 1 minute at most. I'm considering this solved. As a side note, the lockout module I got from amazon worked flawlessly as well. thanks so much for the help everyone. This forum is amazing!!
Excellent news. Now you can put it up for sale on eBay for the same as you paid for it with the bonus that it has been "tested on a machine and proved to function as intended", which is more than can be said for most aftermarket controls.
Flowed current through a switch or wire can reveal all kinds of things. Glad you got it figured out and big thanks for posting it for others to learn from. Simon C
Okay, so I used the machine for a couple of hours yesterday and everything is fine. That part did it! Thanks again for the help!!
I just re-read the title of your thread. It gives me the impression that you went into this diagnosis with a preconceived mindset that the ECM was bad which is never a good thing. Especially when the root cause of the problem was found to be something else and despite nothing actually pointing to the ECM you spent money on a replacement that you didn’t need. I can’t imagine you’ll be doing that again.
Quality troubleshooting is a must before dropping the hammer on big tickets items. Seen a few too many times. Meter proven diagnostics is a good way to go. Seen a guy drop the hammer on a Cat tele-handler for a new computer without testing out ET on another machine only to find the plug on ET was not in correctly. $12000 was the bill to the mine in the Yukon for that oops. Simon C
Thanks for sharing and congrats!