One issue I never could pin down on this old bird is the bleed down of the boom. It is not severe but when you are trying to precisely place or hold something, it becomes an issue. The book seems to indicate a certain amount of drift is acceptable but I am tired of it. I have rebuilt both boom cylinders due to leaks so I know that is not it. Drift occurs with machine running or not. Looks like there is a make up and relieve valve for each side of the spool for the boom. I am not sure where this leakage commonly occurs? It seems pretty basic but I am hoping someone does not say "your boom spool is worn out, you're hosed"
Do you have the Service Manual or Hydraulic System schematic of the machine so that you can see how the boom circuit works..? If you want a copy PM me with the machine Serial Number.
Yes, I have all the way it is explained sucks IMO. I am going to run over and test it and verify if the raise side of the boom cylinders connects directly to the valve block or not. There is talk of a "boom check" specifically to hold position but then you see diagrams in the same book that don't include that! There is also a "load check" right at the spool in the valve block. I am trying to figure out which could be leaking. For digging holes, this is a non-issue but I need to use it to construct a new building so holding still will be pretty important for safety.
A boom check valve is included in the Hydraulic Schematic that I'm looking at.......I picked a 76U S/N prefix. If I had your machine S/N I could tell you if the check valve was included in the schematic.
Nige, the serial is a 51U23xx. I believe there is a boom check as the lines go through a box before going to the valve body and spool. The rod side goes directly to the valve body. I did some tests and this is what I have so far. Boom, bucket, stick reaching out as far as possible = .75" drift in 10min Stick vertical, bucket neutral (trying to isolate any drift from other cylinders but this reduces load on the boom) = .25" drift in 15min Boom holding side of machine in the air (down force) = 1.0" drift in 5min Now, to probably move over to a new and bigger issue.... I was walking it around running some tests and one track is not running right. It is not really popping but repetitively hanging up on something somehow. I don't think it is actually the tracks though, I suspect something in the motor/brake/gear reduction box but I hope not. However, during my inspection, The motor is physically loose from the brake unit and there is oil leaking from there. I am not sure if this is related or not. When I engage the tracks, both sides take off smooth and everything feels normal if I just creep but when I push the pedal harder for more speed, the RH track starts jumping or binding somehow. I thought it was that my links are so worn that they are presenting to the sprocket wrong but I need another set of eyes to look at this. It is bad enough to jolt the whole machine and bog the engine. Something is getting in a terrible bind. Can the brake do this or is it on or off? What I am feeling is a very repetitious clogging. I again don't hear any audible popping though.
Your drift rates seem damn good for a machine of that vintage, I think you may be looking for something the machine is not designed to do. I've seen the same with forklifts, one outfit wanted to hold up boats on long forks while they sanded and painted the hull bottom... not. Had to have mechanical support. If you need less drift than that I would recommend a crane, that's what they're made for, no offense.
If those tests were done with the hydraulic oil at normal operating temperature then I would say the drift rates are within what would be expected. .50" of drift on the boom cylinders in 5 minutes is pretty much the standard to determine if drift is excessive or not. As Lantraxco says the excavators of that vintage were not really considered as lifting appliances, therefore the hydraulic systems were not designed with that in mind. Anything non-critical like placing pipes and lifting material concerned with an excavation would be fine but that's about it really. You will note that there is no SWL lfting table for older machines like there is for newer models and most machines like your 225 that I worked with in their heyday never had a hook or lifting eye on the back of the bucket unless someone had welded it there. Today pretty much all buckets have them. The boom check and relief valve is shown on the Hydraulic Schematic I have for your machine. The document reference is SENR7890. If you con't have a copy in your manual send me a PM with your email address. Maybe the diagram below could help you. If anything is leaking it will be the valve #30 which is the check valve that closes when the boom is raised and the pilot control is put into neutral. Regarding your travel issue I think I would sort out the leak first and see where it goes from there. It could be the leak is from the brake.
Regarding the travel motor, I had a 215 years ago that did the same thing and it was bad news. The grinding and hanging up was chunks of piston binding up and grinding into the swash plate. It finally pushed the seal out of the end of the motor and had oil pouring out about where yours is. Being too dumb to know any different, I tore into the motor and rebuilt it myself (probably not to factory spec). It cost about $1500 and a flush of the hydraulic system and it served me well for several years after that.
BTW that motor was really simple to work on. I used normal tools and it took a few hours. But I was broke at the time and needed the machine to run, so I replaced what was broke and obviously wore and put it back together. Not a professional rebuild.
Thanks for the replies. It seems the track issue might have to take a front seat right now as I obviously can't use it with that much of an issue. I am curious, the track when lifted up seems to run fine and seems smooth at slower speed. It almost seems foot pedal related rather than speed but I might be imagining that. When I am barely on the pedal, it runs smooth, then starts to hang up as I give more pedal. When I am looking at the track, the track almost looks like it is in a bind. I am trying to imagine how the motor or brake could act like this? I could see the motor do strange things if self destructing but you can actually hear the hydro system and engine get under load like the motor is fighting something. Is the brake a self contained unit if I run the machine with the motor disconnected?
I think I will need to focus on smoothing out some controls and fixing the track issue right now. Took RH track motor off and ran it. Oil is gushing from brake. not motor. Motor ran great. Pulled oil check plug for final drive.. Water..... Brake on other side is also filling up the final. Both seem to work though. I am not sure if my issue could really be the brake? Reason I ask is I installed some old D4 lower rollers on this machine a while back and has not been run around with them on. The flange on the rollers is taller than the OEM 225 rollers but I figured it would help them track right. There are several spots on the links, only tracked about 100ft, that are bright metal and some metal is actually sheared away a little bit. I am wondering if the track is binding in the rollers causing this? Not sure how to fix it yet because technically they should fit. The link belt width is 5.75" and roller width is 6.0" On the swing, I posted a link. I am slowly giving more and more stick. You ca see she starts off normal, then goes WFO real quick. I think the return of the spool is about the same. Hard to stop smoothly. I need to protect what is left of the machine so get this tuned is sort of important. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uE0MQBCVf0&feature=youtu.be
I have possibly sourced the track binding to frozen link pin sleeves? They don't rotate and I determined every time I hear/feel a pop, the chain jumps deeper into the sprocket. I see the pins strike the front edge of the sprocket, no where near the tip of the sprocket but certainly not at the root either. As the sprocket rotates, the pin/sleeve pop deeper into the sprocket and since the sleeves do not spin, I think the friction has to be overcome to get the sleeves ride down into the sprocket. I am open to thoughts but I am thinking about motorcycle chains. The sleeves are the rollers that rotate in the sprocket. If this is the case, I think we are close?
The bush (or sleeve as you refer to it) is actually pressed into one end of the track links, so it does not rotate in quite the way I think you imagine it does. It's not like a mtorcycle chain that has bushes which rotate freely on the pins. In the diagram above the pin #4 is pressed into the "wide" end of the track links and the bushing #3 is pressed into the "narrow" end of the links. So the pin #4 and the links #5 & 6 are actually a fixed assembly, as is the bush #3 and the links #9 & 10. You may have some pins in your track links that are lacking lubricant that is causing the tightness between pin & bush and therefore the bushings attempting to jump the sprocket. Does it happen worse when you are moving the track in the forward or reverse direction..?
Very much so Nige! reverse is MUCH worse! The machine has been used for a couple things but technically has not been tracked in 2 yrs. I too was looking at the pivots of the pins and looks like they sort of stay at an angle until they hit the sprocket. maybe they need a little love? The binding I am getting is more than just a bump. It actually pulls the engine down a bit and causes machine to change directing a bit. Looking down at the pads when running, they seems to get angled around, not staying straight. "lubricant"??? What is that??? lol. there are a few pins that the previous guy just found some steel bar and installed. If the machine proves itself, I will get these issues fixed right. I might need a little advice on how to better assess these track issues. I know for sure the links have seen better days but I don't need brand new performance, I need need to walk around a bit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8PHHbvu3ng&feature=youtu.be Here is a poor but existing video if this helps you? Or at least would this help eliminate the finals as a potential? The track was in the air so lower rollers are not the issue. I think load is the issue causing more friction and bind. I would think I would be hearing a quite different sound if this was the final causing it. Every time you hear that little pop at the end of the vid, the pin/bush are working their way towards the root of the sprocket. They kind of stick/slip their way in but the bushings certainly are not striking the sprocket at the very tip of the sprocket.
If the machine has not been tracked in 2 years I would expect quite a few either partially or totally sized joints in the track links. The best method I know is using diesel on the affected joints. It may be that you only have something like 10% of the total joints affected. Identifying them is your first job. I would use something like a garden spray that you pump up and that has a nozzle that sprays a fine mist on to the area. The method is to do one track at a time. Swing the upper frame 90 degrees and set the bucket on the ground then jack up the machine until the bottom run of the track on that side is completely off the ground. Go in with your spray and try to get the diesel into the area where the seals #11 & 12 are located in both ends of the pin - the parts diagram only shows them at one end but they are actually at both ends. Once you've got all you can access on the bottom run of the track move the travel motor and do another section. I'd guess each side will take 3 moves. Once one side of the machine is done repeat the process with the other side. Let the machine sit overnight then pick each track up in turn and run it. Once you identify which joints are still tight mark them and repeat the process with the diesel. Repeat as necessary after that until everything is freed up.
If the problem is worse in reverse then you also need to check the front idler bearing. If it has collapsed then the idler will get pulled back into the yoke which acts as a brake on the idler tread.
Here are some pics and specs. I tried to measure things out. It looks like the chain pitched measured over several pins is 6.81" on the RH and 6.79" on the LH. Sprocket tooth radius is pretty consistent radius of 1.5" RH, 1.45" LH. Root diam of RH is 22.50".
There are couple spots you can see the pads are angled, not sitting straight. One of those places, the link on the back side is broke. The other does not appear broke. The tooth face width is 1.625". I did not measure the idlers as they seem pretty good and don't think that is contributing to issues. PN on both sprockets is 3V1727
What CM was referring to regarding the idler is the condition of the shaft bearing which if it has collapsed then the idler will get pulled back into the yoke which acts as a brake on the idler tread. The broken track links aren't helping maintain a consistent track pitch, that's for sure ........ It's obvious from the last photo showing the wear in the track frame that at some point that idler has been grinding lumps out of the frame, maybe due to a bad bearing. Another suggestion. Take a close-up look at both tracks from the side (inside and out). If they are genuine Cat links up at the top of the them, right under where the track shoe bolts, ought to be a Part Number cast into the links. Can you see any signs of those numbers..? if they are there it will give some clue as to what the complete undercarriage system measurements ought to be.
That video of the swing looks about like how my 215 does when swinging, hard to feather it real smooth. I would suggest checking all of the linkage on top of the pilot control and make sure its alined properly, if you have something slightly binding it will cause it to be jerky. Oh and I wish my machine only drifted that much lol Your numbers don't seem too bad at all.
Sorry, the links are 9K6628 and 9K6629 (inner and outer?). There are some newer links that are 9K6629H and there are a few that are aftermarket. Asparco? or something like that but could not get a certain PN from them. I know these chains have seen better days and frustrating because it really doesn't need to go far these days but if it can't track, that is an issue. I have 2" of slack in the tracks right now between the top roller and idler. I think the target pitch on these is supposed to be 6.75" I am not sure what a reasonable wear limit is on the pitch but at this point, I am not sure where the issue is to determine what to do about it. I don't think it would be too wise to try to patch things too much rather than just replacing and I would be I will have my work cut out trying to press those pins. Well, some of them are literally steel bar stuck in there and welded!! There were running it around with bad lower rollers and grinding on them until they were VERY flat. Is there a way to determine if the pins are very frozen to where lubing them could help for now? Tracks are so heavy that it makes assessing things difficult. I know when I jump on them, they seem to move pretty free. Regarding the idlers, maybe I am wrong but I would think if that was the sort of my binding I would either see the track slip on the idler causing heavy marks or fresh meat where the idler was making contact with something? When I look at how the pins ride the sprocket, they make contact with the front side of the tooth, then "pop" in steps down into the root of the tooth, then exit on the opposite side of the tooth. As well, I read in another post where someone mentioned that binding and track issues can further cause final drive failures? Is this due to the extra load or something else?
If you have 47 links per track then Part Numbers 9K-6628/6629 are LH and RH links and correct for your machine. The specified link pitch is 6.75". To measure any pitch extension due to internal wear measure 4 links (pin #1 to pin #5 in other words and you should get a measurement of 27.00" when the links are new. A measurement of 27.50" is equivalent to 100% wear limit on pins & bushings, 27.70" is equivalent to 120% which is the scrap limit. For link rail wear measure a few links from the underside of the track shoe to the bottom of the link where it runs over the rollers & idler using a straight edge across the link. New links measure 3.75", 100% worn 3.51", & 120% worn 3.45". 3V-1727 sprockets are original and correct for 6.75" track pitch. In view of what you've posted regarding the "repairs" done to the links by previous owners it might pay you to look for a set of used links to which you can install your existing track shoes. If there is nothing available see if there is a low-hour option available from Cat. I'm not sure what they call it these days, maybe light duty or something like that. It's fairly obvious that the tracks have been patched at one or more instances in the past and that has brought you to what you have now. Continued patching-type repairs are only going to result in throwing good money after bad IMHO. Regarding whether to lubricate or not, why not try it..? It shouldn't take a massive amount of time and even if it doesn't work you've lost nothing, but TBH if the machine was standing for 2+ years I would be very surprised if some track pin joints were not seized. A complete new standard link group (2 reqd.) for your machine currently sells at $2,000.
OK, from your specs, it looks as though the chain pitch is not WAY out of spec and not even to max wear limit. I have provided a quick drawing of how the pins are striking the sprocket. When I tested the pitch, I measure over 6 pins to get a more accurate value. To obtain a 27.50" wear limit value, that is a pitch of 6.875" which, even accounting for some inaccuracy, I am certain I am not at. Due to that, I am wondering if I should do some repairs to the chain. questions: 1. How can I determine if the pins are binding up? I know they move under force but not sure how to quantify an issue here? 2. if I obtain a few pins to replace the junk the other guy installed, will I have any luck with a big hammer approach to install? I will assume new interference fit will not be achieved. 3. Can you see the way the pins hit the sprocket as abnormal? As I mention, when I hear the popping, it is most certainly coming from the sprocket area, not the idler or anywhere else. Each time it pops, you can see the pins stick/slipping their way into the root of the sprocket. They don't casually slide in. I am also wondering about the bushing or pin wear that cannot be seen by testing the pitch? I think I was measuring the bushings at about 2.00" and I think new is 2.12"?
Not to hi-jack fastline's thread, but I too have a 225 51U26xx. I have 7 frozen pin/bushings. 5 on the RH track, 2 on the LH. They were frozen when I bought the machine in 2009, and I thought when I used the machine they would free themselves up, they never did. Here are some pics: http://i.imgur.com/nplmykL.jpg http://i.imgur.com/gOSW0nm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/17zyBbB.jpg http://i.imgur.com/WUhAt7n.jpg http://i.imgur.com/qxRK7pL.jpg I have been using a mixture of diesel + used motor oil on just one seized pin/bushing to see if I could get them free. I put the entire weight of my Ford 575D backhoe on this joint and it didn't move. Next step will be to place a piece of firewood on the round and try to run it over in a way to back bend this link under the weight of the machine. I dunno, so far, it doesn't seem like I'm going to get this to break free. These links have been seized for ~8 years now... If I can't break them free with Diesel, is the only other option to field press the pins out? What about drilling a hole in the top of the bushing to get oil/penetrant in between the pin & bushing then welding back up, taking care not to weld the pin to the bushing (even a small spot of weld would break free easily if I left the pin dirty)? Also, about fastline's track popping. I too had terrible track popping on one side only for many years on my machine. It wasn't until one of the track drive hoses blew that the problem was fixed. I guess if you have a track drive hose that is leaking, the drive can surge generating a cab shaking pop. Ever since I replaced all the track drive hoses, I have never had any more popping when tracking.