I have a 2012 CAT 252B3 with 2,100 hours on it and C3.4 engine. Since our temps have dropped below freezing, I've been having intermittent issues with losing power and smoking. It happened this past Monday when I went out to use it for moving snow. It was about 20*F out and it started fine (I use a block heater), idled fine for 15 minutes then even ran at high idle for 15 minutes but at higher RPM and under load it would lose power, sputter, and smoke. I'm not the best at judging smoke color but it wasn't dark black and it wasn't white. It just looked kinda blue grey. I was running straight number 2 in it then since our stations didn't have winter blend last time I filled up. But I did have hot shots secret in it and I added Lucas injector cleaner. After at least 1-1/2 hours of warm-up, it operated just fine, I got the snow clearing done, then went to town to get winter blend. I now have winter blend in it which is 20% kerosene and I added more hot shots secret. I cleared snow Tuesday and Wednesday with no issues. A normal warmup cycle and she ran just fine. Temps were in the 20s and low 30s. Then today it was 4* this morning. I ran the block heater for 2 hours and it started right up. I let it idle for 15 minutes, then went to high idle for 15 minutes, worked the cylinders to move the hydraulic oil around and everything was fine. I let it run at high idle for another 5 minutes and it started to smoke and sputter again. Within a minute it would clear itself up and run at high idle again but a few minutes later RPM would drop and it would start sputtering again. This cycle went on for 20 minutes and finally it was running as it should. I cleared snow for 10 minutes without issue and then it started sputtering again. It sputtered off and on for 10 minutes and finally died. It had never actually died before. It started back up, smoked, sputtered, had no throttle response and died again. I put a heater on the fuel filter, plugged in the block heater so at least it wouldn't cool down and let it sit for 20 minutes. It then started and ran just fine as I drove it for 5 minutes to get it out of the way and into its parking spot where I left it. The injector pump was at least 60*F, the block was around 150*, the fuel filter was right around 32*, and each exhaust port was about 180* when it died. I crack the water separator on the filter every day but I never get anything out of it. Some days I'll hear gurgling when I open the valve and some days I don't hear anything but I never get anything to drain. It's a new CAT fuel filter with less than 50 hours on it. This is my second winter with the machine. Last winter was colder than normal with more snow than normal and I never had these issues. I did have to warm the fuel filter last year when temps were below zero but I don't remember ever losing power and having the sputtering. Any help is greatly appreciated. Some questions at the top of my mind are: 1. Should I run some iso-HEET in the tank and is that safe for the injectors? 2. Shouldn't I at least get diesel out of the water separator when I drain it? Or do these separators somehow keep the diesel from draining? 3. Should I be draining the separator after operating when at temp or before operating? I'm thinking after operating any water would be liquid and drain vs being frozen. 4. Any other suggestions on what I should try? TIA
1. No, iso heet is alcohol for gas lines freezing up, which isn't an issue anymore since most gas is 10% alcohol. 2. YES, you should get diesel dripping out, that means you can close it, you might have to pump a priming pump, or crank the engine a second to get fuel out of the water separator. Or turn the key on for a second if you have an electric fuel pump. Put a clean pail under it to catch what comes out to see if there's water. Repeat until you get no more water if you do get some water. 3. Shouldn't matter, but ice won't flow, and ice takes a long time to melt. 4. After working for ten minutes, the block should at least 180. The exhaust manifold might cool off quick so that doesn't mean much, but the block will hold heat for a bit. I'd idle it for a minute, then work gently for five minutes, and then hammer down. You may have other issues besides waxing and gelling or water, like plugged strainer, filter, suction air leak, fuel tank cap vent plugged, etc. that only show themselves in the stress of the cold.
Good summary, Delmer. Boreal could leave a quart of that fuel sitting in a jar, outside, overnight and see if it’s gelling. Maybe. Lots of variables. The “winter blend” may not be “winter blend”. It would be nice to rule that out.
Yeah, Minnesota, could have 20% bio in there...
Thanks guys! I'll try leaving some out in a mason jar and see what it looks like. Other than that, I'm at a loss on how to test the potential issues Delmer mentioned since the problem seems intermittent and temp dependent. I did pull the fuel cap today when it happened and that didn't seem to change anything. It'll be in the single digits here again tomorrow. I'll try running through a warmup and see if she bucks. If it's bogging again, any other diagnostic or fuel system cleaning tips would be a huge help. It's snow season now and I need my cat running
2. YES, you should get diesel dripping out, that means you can close it, you might have to pump a priming pump, or crank the engine a second to get fuel out of the water separator. Or turn the key on for a second if you have an electric fuel pump. Put a clean pail under it to catch what comes out to see if there's water. Repeat until you get no more water if you do get some water. Do whatever it takes to get diesel to drip out of the water separator, then you'll know if there's a water problem or not. 4. After working for ten minutes, the block should at least 180. The exhaust manifold might cool off quick so that doesn't mean much, but the block will hold heat for a bit. I'd idle it for a minute, then work gently for five minutes, and then hammer down. Those temps are cool, either the engine isn't working very hard, or the thermostat isn't closing enough. Could try cardboard over 90% of the radiator if you watch the temp gauge. The fuel should warm up faster than that also, I'd think, could be ice holding the 32 temp. You may have other issues besides waxing and gelling or water, like plugged strainer, filter, suction air leak, fuel tank cap vent plugged, etc. that only show themselves in the stress of the cold. Basically you're doing most things right, we don't know what's going on, not an easy one, so just some vague suggestions. I would try to run it low on fuel, then fill up with the winter blend to dilute the summer fuel as much as possible. this "hot shot's secret" is it specifically an anti gel anti waxing product? Don't be afraid to run a hair dryer on the fuel filter to be able to run it to use up the old fuel. The cardboard might help a lot there too. Or run a garden hose on the filter, very fast thawing.
What's your air filter like? Could it possibly have ingested some snow that thawed and re-froze?
Are you running the winter version of Hot Shot's Secret diesel fuel additive (either "EDT + Winter Defense" or "Diesel Winter Anti-Gel"? It sounds like your problem started when the temperatures dropped when you still had summer diesel in your CAT. The addition of a quality winter diesel fuel additive will give you about 20 deg F (11 C) reduction in Cold Filter Plug Point (CFPP), which is the temperature that wax crystals restrict fuel flow. Around here (Alberta), our summer diesel has a CFPP about 30 deg F (- 1 C), so with a winter diesel fuel additive, the CFPP of summer diesel can be reduced to about 10 deg F (-12 C). Your winter diesel fuel should have a considerably lower low temperature rating ... for example, the winter diesel in Southern Alberta is rated for -27 deg F (-33 C). The CFPP for winter fuel can be reduced further by using a quality winter diesel fuel additive. When you switched from Summer Diesel to Winter Diesel, you would have still had some Summer Diesel in your tank, resulting in the the CFPP being somewhere between summer and winter diesel. You might want to get a sample of the actual fuel in the tank to check it for cloud point with a jar test ... you might also want to put a jar of fuel in the freezer to check it at a lower temperature. If the fuel is clear and you can see through it, the wax is still dissolved in the fuel. If it is cloudy at all, that means that the wax has started to come out of solution and is forming wax crystals. When enough wax crystals form, they will plug your fuel filter / fuel lines and eventually cause the engine to starve for fuel and shut down. I suspect this is what is happening in your case. As Coaldust and Delmer suggest, the jar test should give you a good visual of what is happening. If you want to sacrifice a fuel filter, cutting open a cold and possibly wax plugged filter might give you a pretty good visual on what is happening too.
Boreal - Here is a link to some fuel system plugging problems on some CAT skid steers ... just in case your problem does NOT turn out to be a fuel gelling (waxing) issue. HeavyEquipmentForums If you still have your old fuel filter kicking around from 50 hours ago, you might want to cut it open and see what is inside to assist with your trouble shooting.
ThreeCW thanks for the link. That gives me some more ideas. It seems inspecting and cleaning the pump/filter assembly will be a good idea just for maintenance also. The diesel I left out last night is not cloudy but does have a clump in it maybe an inch in diameter that looks like snow. It's 3 degrees out right now. I'll see if I can get a clear picture to post of the clump. This sample was from my transfer tank which had 10 gallons of #2 in it when I filed up with 40 gallons of the 80/20 winter. The loader had maybe an 1/8 of a tank of #2 when I filled it from the transfer tank so there would have been some diluting of the 80/20 winter. I thought the Hot Shots would protect me though. The Hot Shots I used was the winter anti-gel. The air filter was new 50 hours ago but I'll inspect it today before startup. The thermostat could be at issue as well. Thanks for the idea Delmer. There's no gauge cluster in the cab but I'll see if I can monitor the hose temp during warmup to see how the thermostat is functioning. I left the cab heater off yesterday to conserve engine heat but turned it on as the windows fogged. That was shortly before it started stalling.
You've got wax. Warm the fuel up, and/or burn it up, and/or see if the cardboard helps. I assume you have a non contact thermometer, can you see the top if the radiator without opening the door? check the temp there, or other painted metal surface on the engine. Hoses are insulated enough that the outside is influenced by the air temp as much as the coolant temp. If it stumbles after running more than five minutes, shut it off and come back in ten minutes, the engine heat might work better without the fan going.
Thanks Delmer! The sun is out today and we could hit 20 so maybe that will help also. Guess I'll run it this afternoon when ambient is on my side. I got quite a bit of water from the separator. I have heat tape wrapped around the filter so the filter and head are about 42 degrees now. I had to run the lift pump from the cab about 5 times until I got diesel from the separator. Glad I know that trick now. I uploaded pics from the overnight sample and pulled the snow looking piece out for a separate pic. I didn't expect the wax to clump like that. I thought it would just gel. Maybe it's an effect from the additives. It's an IR temp probe. I'll cover the radiator with cardboard and take temps from there. Radiator is mounted above the engine so easy access with the door closed. Assuming I can run it and get the fuel warmed up today, should I run to town to get kerosene to add or just add more hot shots or is there something else I should do? Thanks again for all the help!
I have been running Stanadyne Performance Diesel fuel additive which is their all season additive which includes wax / crystal modifiers for cloud point reduction. With the Stanadyne, they say you can run up to 2 times treatment concentration. I don’t suggest mixing different brands of additives , but perhaps your Hot Shot brand may also list an upper concentration limit. Hot Shot also has an emergency treatment winter gel control that you may consider adding … it is not for daily use but for emergency situations such as yours.
Just had a look at your photos … you say it looks like snow … that snow is likely ice from water contamination in your fuel. It looks like you may have a water contamination issue rather than a wax issue. Try melting down that plug and see if it is water or wax. That will help you to determine what you are testing for.
Not sure where you are getting your water from. Perhaps you are buying some wet fuel. It might be time to try another fuel vendor. As a comparison, I have been using a 300 gallon (1200 L) farm diesel fuel tank for the past 20 years. I treat with 1.5 times the additive concentration and only fill the tank every year or two. I have never had to drain water from either the tank filter or the machine filter. Perhaps I am lucky with water but quality fuel in = quality fuel out.
ThreeCW I had the same thought about it maybe being ice crystals. I put it on the woodstove and it was mostly clear with just a hint of offroad dye so guessing it's crystallized water. I'm sure the water could be from condensation. I don't have a drain on my bulk tank (55 gallon drum). Do I need to get some water finding paste? I couldn't wait for warmer temps this afternoon. I decided I wanted to see if I could get it going while it was still single digits. I blocked off the radiator with cardboard, it started right up as always, and I crept the RPMs up as much as I could without it loading up then did some light work for 10 minutes, opened her up and started plowing. I figured as long as the heater core was blowing cold, I wasn't gonna overheat. It performed great for 40 minutes. I kept checking the block temp with IR and it hit 230 so I removed the cardboard. Within 5 minutes she started loading up again so I replaced the cardboard and drove back home. It's sitting in the sun now. I figure I'll let the built up heat radiate while ambient warms up and I'll top it of with kerosene and more hotshots. But if it's a water issue, is kerosene gonna help or do I just need to keep dumping the separator?
So just went out to try and dump the separator and got nothing out. I ran the lift pump 5 times. No diesel, no water, nothing. The filter was 36 degrees so wouldn't think there'd be ice blocking it -- especially since I was able to dump it before I ran it. I plugged the heat tape in to see if that gets anything to flow...
I would try the Hot Shot’s Diesel Winter Rescue if can find some. It will be compatible with your existing treated fuel. https://www.hotshotsecret.com/diesel-winter-rescue/ You will need to get rid of the water in your fuel. The water is heavier than diesel so it will accumulate in the bottom of your tank. You might want to siphon fuel from the top of your drum into a jerry can. You could then tip the jerry van over and drain off the bottom thru the vent to remove any water. And keep draining off the fuel separator on your CAT.
I wouldn't consider this an emergency, and I wouldn't use any "emergency" fuel product. I probably wouldn't use more kerosene in a 2012 either. I'd keep trying the same thing until you get rid of the water and old fuel. How much of the radiator did you cover? leave an inch or two of the end of all the fins exposed and it should keep cool enough. if it gets that hot, then open it a quarter or half, but don't remove the cardboard if you need to run.
You will want to pull the drain plug on your 252B fuel tank at some point as well and get rid is as much water from the fuel tank as you can.
Depending on how much fuel is in the tank right now this would be the first thing I'd suggest doing. I don't see any point in continuing to suck gobs of water from the tank only for it to freeze up in the lines & filters. The fuel tank drain plug is located underneath the machine at the left rear corner. Remove the fuel tank cap first so that there is no pressure in the tank. The plug needs some pipe sealer on it when you reinstall it.
If the filter has ice in it, then the tank is not going to be any warmer. Need to run this until the tank is warm, or you get warmer weather this week to check the tank for water. Or put a heater under the tank, or run a garden hose down the side of the tank if you have well water.
Time to drain the tank and start over fresh. Over concentration of fuel additive is a real thing and causes problems. Those “emergency” additives, even the legit products, are sketchy, at best. Most of my customers are additizing with Power Service this winter. (In the white bottle). Actually, 275 gallon IBC’s of it. Ask your fuel supplier because they may already be mixing additive. You may be doing more harm than good by playing chemist.
It makes the most sense to drain the fuel tank, change the filter and drain as much of the rest of the fuel supply as possible and start with fresh fuel directly from a clean jerry can to eliminate any condensation/contamination coming from your supply tank. Then you know what you have for fuel instead of a home made concoction of who knows what concentration. Once running properly you could add some fuel conditioner in modest quantity if desired.
Delmer, why no more kerosene in a 2012? Just wanting to learn I attached a pic of the cardboard. The fan still blows it up a bit so maybe it's net 70% covered when the fan is running. I ran it this evening with the snow blower. It was 20 degrees out. I didn't even need the glow plugs to start it, I kept the radiator covered as in the picture and everything worked great. After an hour of blowing with the cardboard in place, the block was 190 degrees. Guess I'll just keep doing this until the watery fuel is gone.
Just keep checking the drips from the water separator. And loosen the tank drain and see if you can get some drips if it gets much above freezing, or you can warm the tank up to melt ice. There could be a layer of ice, as long as the plug sticks up higher than the ice, diesel will flow out and you won't see the water. I don't know what fuel injection system that has, an old inline pump would be fine to run 50% kerosene, or some percentage gas. I wouldn't do that in common rail, or even some sensitive rotary pumps.
Thanks everyone for all the input! We have some warmer temps coming this week. The highs should get closer to freezing so I'll try to run it and warm the tank as much as I can then drain off the bottom to hopefully clear any significant water. The CAT tank is still 3/4 full so almost 20 gallons in it. Then another 25 gallons in the bulk tank. If I transfer it all to Jerry cans and flip them over so I can drain water from the bottom, can I still get some use from this fuel? If the CAT will run on it like it did today, should I burn what I can getting work done? Or do I just need to plumb an oil burner into my shop woodstove and get rid of it that way?
I would use it up. Check the tank when it's warm, check the water separator every day-make sure it drips, tip the bulk tank so the water goes away from the inlet, or raise the inlet/outlet so you don't suck anything off the bottom 4" and you should be fine. I don't think that cloud was ice, you'd see it for sure if there was water and fuel in the melted result, put it in a jar lid out of the recycling and let it melt, I bet there's no separation.
Here is a technical article from Donaldson Filtration Solutions titled “Water is the Enemy of Diesel Engines”. Read the article and draw your own conclusions. An oil burner in your stove might be an appropriate solution for your wet diesel. https://www.donaldson.com/en-sg/bulk-fluid-storage/technical-articles/water-enemy-diesel-engines/ And if you want even more information about water in fuel, you could check out this Donaldson video:
Obviously, ThreeCW, you have seen your share of injector tips blown off and seized up pumps.
Actually I have not personally experienced that yet. Perhaps it is because I am a fan of clean, filtered fuel and of using a quality fuel conditioner. This discussion reminds me it is probably time to drain my tank bottoms the next time my fuel tank is low.
Is your tank insulated, have a roof, or stored in the shade? I'd imagine your temps fluctuate somewhat like ours. We go from 80 and humid to -40 in a year. We also get very foggy stretches from lake superior and plenty of precipitation. I'm thinking the breather on my bulk tank is bringing moisture in as the temps change. Maybe moving it to the shade and adding a roof would get me closer to your results. I fill the barrel 3-4 times a year so the fuel is never sitting very long. Really wanting to add a drain to the bottom though now have all this hassle. Maybe even a separator inline on the bulk tank when fueling.
So I eventually got diesel out of the separator yesterday after running the heat tape. There was no visible water this time. That was before I went and ran the blower. I'll heat the filter up again today to see if there is any water from running it last night with the snow blower. If not, this could just be that the separator was full since for whatever reason it wouldn't drain when I was checking it previously. But now that I run the lift pump and warm it until it drains, maybe that will be the end of the issue. Now my thought is that I can keep running it as long as it performs and I'm not getting significant water out of the separator. The separator will be my guide each day. Then when the tank is nearly empty, I'll drain off the bottom to see what I get. As far as the dangers of running water in diesel, how efficient is the separator supposed to be? If it isn't filled past capacity and you don't have excessive water in the fuel, is the idea that it's collecting enough water to keep the pump and injectors safe? My sample from the bulk tank is clear as can be now that temps are a little warmer. There is no indication of water, gelling, or crystals in it at all. This further makes me think the issue might have just been a full separator and maybe a little wax crystalizing. The separator being only 50 hours old could have been filled just by the diesel releasing water from the drop in temperature. That 50 hours has seen temps change from 60s to single digits. Any excess water from the summer was released and collected in the separator as the fuel cooled. Just a thought. If the water is in ice form, it could be hindering performance by starving fuel before the injector pump (e.g blocking at the filter). The big problem seems to be when the water becomes liquid and gets into the injection system. Right now I have no idea if the problem was solid or liquid water I guess. Also on that thought, if there was water in the bulk tank, it should be in solid ice form now and not an issue. Is that right? Or maybe some water is in solution with any alcohol or similar carrier in the fuel but the bulk of the water should be ice (if there is any bulk of water). I guess I can keep pulling samples from the bulk tank as I use the fuel to see if any water separates.
ThreeCW thanks for the links. That's great content from Donaldson I just went out to drain the water separator. I had the heat tape on it so any water would be liquid. The filter temp was 62 when I drained it. After a little gurgling, I got a nice stream of pure red diesel. No visible water. Didn't even need to run the lift pump. That's after snow blowing last night and should represent any water from the fuel I burned last night. That is twice I've drained it with no water. I'll go blow some more banks back tonight and see how it runs. My thinking is still if it runs, throttles, has power, and I'm not getting water in the separator, then no need to drain the tanks. At least not until they are almost empty.
The only potential fly in the oitment I see is the possibility that the filter element above the water separator bowl could have become contaminated with water such that the fuel will not pass through it if the water happens to freeze. that gurgling you heard gets me worried that the fuel is not passing through the element the way it out to. I may be wrong - just throwing it out there.
Doesn't bother me one bit. Keep checking the drains every week, or more often if it keeps having problems. The water got there somehow. If it's in your barrel, you can drop a rope/twine to the bottom when it's warm, then pull it out when it's cold to get the ice, tip the barrel so it all flows together on the bottom. or wait til it's low, and siphon it off when frozen.
I'm pretty sure it has gurgled like that even in warm weather. The separator really has me confused. It's a new CAT 361-9555 filter/separator with 50 hours on it and it had the same CAT filter on it before. Both filters never drained the separator the way I would expect. The maintenance manual makes it sound so easy, open the valve, drain, and close the valve, but that has never been my experience regardless of temperature. If I have power issues going forward, I'll throw a new filter at it again. Then I can cut this one apart also.
Air or fuel has to go into the filter for anything to come out of it, so don't be surprised by gurgling or having to use a pump to get fuel out. I just broke a water separator drain on a cummins that had two prongs over an inch long past the threaded part, I assume so you could unscrew the drain plug completely, let it hang there on the prongs and jiggle it to get the fuel/water to flow without turning on the pump etc. I wouldn't bother changing the filter until it's scheduled, assuming you don't consistently get water out of it again.
That's good to know cause I'm always afraid I'm gonna thread it out too far as I keep turning hoping something will come out. And the vacuum holding fluids makes sense. No performance issues tonight. It was 22° out and she purred like a CAT for a couple hours of snow blowing. The block got to 200° but thermostat housing was only 150ish. The cardboard is still on the radiator and I had cab heat. I figure the cardboard is only helping it hold temps so I'll leave it on. I tried draining the separator but got nothing out even after cycling the pump twice. I gave up and figured I'd try again tomorrow.
I've seen this many, many, too many times. Marke and remove all lines from filter head. Rotate lock ring on top and remove ring with electric pump together. Take care to not lose large square cut seal. Now rotate lower ring and remove filter and ring. Remove entire filter head from machine. Take and thoroughly inspect inlet to filter head, going so far as to run a wire all the way thru to the outer concentric filter stem. Dollar to donuts, the inlet path is restricted. Page two here HeavyEquipmentForums even has pictures. And, add a 3972 Napa inline screen after cleaning it out.
If the machine is not being stored where it gets above the freezing point, then if there is some water in bottom of the fuel tank of this machine. it will most likely not thaw out from just running it for 30 minutes at a time So lets say there is some frozen water sitting in fuel tank in the area of the fuel pickup tube, there is always the possibility the restriction is right at the end of fuel pickup tube
A lot of snow machines are left outside so they don't get condensation and icing problems from going into a heated shop for an un-determend amount of time. Having a machine partly thawed and then re-freezing can cause all kinds of problems.
Quick update since I'm sure everyone is dying to hear We had a break from snow and cold but today we dipped back to 12° after getting four inches so I figured I'd test the CAT out. She plowed for 2 hours with no issue. It's the same fuel as before. The only difference is the successful draining of the water separator and I'm still running cardboard over 90% of the radiator. Block was 197° when I shut it down taken from an IR gun. So far so good. Thanks everyone for the help! We'll get below zero this weekend for another test.
I'd cut about a 6" hole in the middle of your cardboard. Have heard of problems blocking too much of the rad.
Good point, front covers are supposed to be opened from the center to avoid uneven load on the fan making it vibrate.
We had 5 below today and I went out to clear snow. I plugged it in for an hour, let it idle for 10 minutes, then 15 minutes of light plowing in the yard, and I went hammer down to plow the road. I made it a 1/4 mile when she started smoking and losing power. I heated up the separator and only got diesel dripping out. I had to leave it in the road as I couldn't keep it running. I'd start it after a little hard cranking, it would start, smoke and within a minute the fan would kick on and it would die. Not sure why the fan was kicking on but I didn't have my temp gun to take any temps. I still have the radiator covered just as before and this is the last 1/4 tank of the same fuel from before. I haven't had any issues for weeks but temps were also above 0 and we haven't had much snow. The fuel sample I have out looks fine and flows nicely in the container. It's supposed to be 20 tomorrow so I'm hoping I can get it out of the road. I'm tempted to plumb a small temporary fuel tank with known good fuel to eliminate everything before the filter. But I'd probably have to wait until it's below zero again to test it. I'm also thinking I should test the thermostat. Is there any way I can do it without draining the radiator? Maybe I can crimp and plug the hose to keep from draining all the antifreeze. Anything else I should check? I'm back to thinking about Delmer's original list of potential issues that are just exasperated in colder temps. (plugged strainer, filter, suction air leak, fuel tank cap vent plugged, ...) cause it has been running just fine otherwise. I suppose I could pull and clean the filter head passages also. Maybe they are just plugged enough to show issues with thicker/cold fuel.
I'll plan to do this over the weekend also and I ordered the 3972s. Should've done it earlier but I thought the problem was solved. My filter head looks like the attached picture.
I got some lovely 30 degree temps today so I took advantage and got that filter head inspected. Overall it was pretty clean. No real sludge, grit, or grime but there was a leaf plugging the inlet port. It looked like a birch leaf. No idea how that got there but it was a relief to find something. I picked it out with some wire, flushed it with diesel, blew it out, reassembled with a new filter, and she runs like a champ. It wasn't 5 below so not a real test but I can't imagine that leaf was helping anything. I'll try not to run it again until the inline screens get here but we do have snowmageddon coming next week so I hope they get here soon. Thanks everyone for all the help. I felt overwhelmed when the problem first occurred but I've gained some more experience and knowledge now thanks to you all.
So I'm not out of the woods yet. We got 34" of snow in two days and I burned through a couple tanks of fuel with no issues but temps were near freezing. Then we dropped into the single digits and the issue is back. Since my Napa strainers just arrived on Saturday, I didn't have one installed yet. I figured another chunk of leaf worked its way into the filter head but after tearing it apart, i found only ice in there. I cleaned it out, installed the inline strainer, and started trying to figure out how I'm going to drain ice from the tank when we will barely make it above zero for a while. I came up with a plan to recirculate the fuel through a coil in a heated bucket of water until the fuel has been above freezing for a few hours. When I went out to hook up my heat exchanger system, I saw these perfect square sheets of ice in the strainer (attached). The heat exchanger seems to warm the fuel just fine. I'm hoping to run it most of the day today and get that fuel drained.
Ive never seen ice form squares like that in a filter. Seems odd. It would be interesting to see what’s in that tank.
The squares match the screen support grid. Myself, I'd go down the road of treating the fuel with Power Service White Bottle, followed by changing the separator filter after 50 hours or so.
Yeah, it took me a minute of staring at it to figure out how they were so perfectly formed. I've got the tank to 32° now. I plan on letting it continue heating and recirculating for a couple hours then fully drain it. I have new fuel in Jerry cans and I'll replace the filter/separator and blow out the inlet and return lines. Not sure if I should blow out the lift pressure side from the injector pump side. Are you saying you'd do power service white bottle in addition to that or in place of all that?
Is it ice or wax? Use a hair dryer to warm up that inline filter, and see if water drops out. That will tell you which direction to go. White power service at the dose on the bottle will help. Is this the same fuel, or have you bought new premium winterized fuel. Even #1 if you can find it.
Yeah, that looks like paraffin, not ice.
Definitely wax. Not worth draining the tank for that. I use Power Service White Bottle a lot, especially when going down below 20°F. Never has it not worked, or left me, or the fleet, stranded. You're gelling up. #2 diesel, summer blend, has paraffin (wax) added, to increase the BTUs. That wax will begin to solidify around 17°F.
If those squares were ice, that would be a lot of water in your fuel.
I'll go melt it now to see what happens This is new winter blend from our station that is 50/50 #1 and #2. And I added Hot Shots Secret Winter Anti-gel again. I sent the picture to the hot shots secret lab
I'm no expert but it seems to melt like wax. It runs clear when melting but looks like a candle melting instead of ice. Below is a picture of it melting. I got the tank drained but I guess that was in vain. Not an easy task in -22°F wind chills. Fuel was 60°F coming out of the heat exchanger but was only 29° when I drained it from the tank. I had to melt some ice to get the tank to drain. Hopefully water should be out of the question now. I replaced the screen and filter/seperator after starting. The screen was plugging up with new wax every 10 minutes or so as I tried to burn some fuel off before draining. Below is a picture of the screen after draining with only 50/50 blend fresh from the station with no additives. You can see some waxing but not nearly as bad. Machine ran for 30 minutes with no issue -- it was about 8 below F. Now I'm not sure if I should add the Hot Shots Secret that I ran all last winter without issue or switch additives -- maybe to Power Service White Bottle. It'll be -15F here in the morning with windchills hitting -30 to 40 the next couple days. I probably won't run it until the next wave of snow is done on Saturday.
That's not a good sign. You had a fair bit of water in the separator before, didn't you? I was guessing it was wax in the filter but warming it up should show if it settles in the bottom as water or not. I wouldn't think the new fuel in MN should wax up. In any case, I wouldn't expect the tank to be empty of water after one draining with some ice in there. I'd put five gallons more than you expect to use, then when it's been above freezing all day, warm the fuel up, get it sloshed around and drain it again. Repeat until there is no more water found.
What is the purpose for the inline filter? Don't know why you'd need it on a diesel and think it could be contributing to your problems. I know some people don't recommend them on gravity feed gas engines. Seems like it would be an easy way to get an air lock and being small would plug much easier. I've always seen they have a small air pocket and aren't 100% filled with fuel. Diesel needs pretty much a closed system from tank to IP with no air anywhere.
If the "50/50 blend fresh from the station with no additives" is still waxing up on you, then that "winter" fuel is not blended for the low temperatures you are experiencing. A properly blended winter fuel should not be waxing up on you (causing filter plugging) and you should not "have to" add an additive to achieve low temperature operability ... additives that provide cold weather protection can be used to provide "additional" protection, but the winter diesel fuel must be properly formulated (blended) to meet your low temperature requirements. I suggest talking to your fuel supplier and find out the temperature rating of the diesel you are buying. Based on your waxing problems, it appears that the fuel your are buying does not meet your low temperature requirements. One of the reasons for out of spec fuel can be if it is old inventory ... blended for September or October temperatures ... which will not work for you in December ... even with the addition of a fuel additive. Your best option would be to find an alternate fuel supplier with diesel fuel that is correctly blended to meet the low temperatures you are seeing today and the low temperatures you expect to see the rest of the winter. As an example, I have attached a chart for Alberta diesel fuel showing the seasonal operating temperatures. You may be able to find a similar chart for your region. It is a handy chart to have for deciding on when to purchase your winter fuel requirements.
Yeah, the problem is looking like it could be 3 fold: 1. I definitely had water out of the separator and ice in the tank 2. I found the leaf blocking the filler head inlet 3. Now potential waxing The good news is I'm learning a ton and I think we're making progress. The screen was added because of the leaf I found blocking the filter inlet. I haven't had any debris in the screen since adding it. I suppose with a freshly drained tank, I could remove the screen now but it sure is nice security and for visual inspection.
This makes sense. Who knows how empty the station tank was when they got the winter blends. Maybe there is residual summer blend in there before I get it. The two tags of winter blend info from the station are below. But I've been adding HotShots Winter Anti-gel to every tank since we first broke before freezing for added protection. I know we get colder than the station is prepared for and sometimes I have to buy my fuel a month or two at a time. Right now it's -20F and you can see the station blend only claims good to -15F. Temperature can change a lot in a month so I always like to add the additive. I also add it for the lubricity and moisture demulsiphier. So my big curiosity now is why did I get waxing with the hotshots anti-gel. And the fuel isn't cloudy. You can see in the pictures of the screen the fuel around the wax is nice and clear. So is this just considered "waxing" and not "gelling?" The videos I've seen of gelling look like cloudy molasses when poured. My fuel looks like nice clean diesel. The only evidence of a problem is the blockage in the screen. I picked up 10 more gallons in fuel cans from a different station last night. I guess we'll see if anything changes.
The screen won't cause a problem by itself. It will make any plugging happen faster, and make it visible, and easy to fix. The water is a problem. The fuel mix should not be a problem above zero. The additive shouldn't be needed, but shouldn't cause a problem, but COULD cause water to suspend and make ice, wild guess. OR, somehow the water and/or additive cause the waxing? another wild guess. Still not positive that's wax or ice in the filter, maybe it doesn't matter. Fix the water and it might all go away.
The water separation from the additive is likely what was causing the water problem no idea on the waxing problem yet. But like you say, maybe they're somehow connected. I talked to the guys at the Hotshots Secret lab yesterday and since the Winter Anti-gel has a demulsifier and I add it to my bulk tank, the water is falling out in the bulk tank. That's good and fine if I had a drain to periodically drain it and if my pickup wasn't on the bottom. Since my pickup was on the bottom, I was getting a high water concentration. I raised the pickup yesterday 3" off the bottom. I won't fuel from the bulk tank again until I have a better understanding of what is happening to cause that freezing or waxing but at least I won't be sucking off the bottom anymore. When the weather is nicer, I'll weld on a drain. In the equipment, the demulsification is intended to drop the water to the bottom where the pickup is and send it to the separator. Of course, draining it off from the tank drain once in a while is a good idea as well. I thought it was interesting that they intended the water to get sucked into the pickup and removed from the tank through the separator. Maybe less of an intention as just a fact of the pickup needing to be on the bottom. It sounds like they are going to want a sample of the fuel sent to them to figure out what is going on. Hopefully all this is helpful to someone else out there as well.
That's your problem right there IMO. The tank should be installed sloped away from the feed end so that the water accumulates at the other end and can be drained periodically. You can get the 3" elevation difference simply by inclining the tank during installation. To me the 3" elevation difference should be measured between the top of the nipple for the drain to the bottom of the nipple for the feed. The filter in the illustration shown below would be optional.
The additive didn't put the water in the fuel, and didn't cause that amount of water to drop out of the fuel. MAYBE it caused some water to make that ice and that's what's in the filter? One trick to get water out of a storage tank, especially a horizontal round tank, when the tank is above freezing, or if you heat it enough to melt the ice, wet the end of a rope in water and drop it to the bottom of the tank, once it freezes you can pull the ice up. Of course if you have a small hole and a large chunk of ice it won't work, but if you can drain off the worst of the water, the rope will get most of the rest.
According to your photos at the pump, your Winter Blend Diesel already has Cold Flow Improver in it. It may be possible that the addition of another additive (Hotshots Secret in your case) might not reduce the wax point of your fuel further ... and hopefully does not cause problems resulting from additive incompatibly. If you want to continue using your Hotshots Secret, you might be better off sourcing an additive free diesel with a low temperature operability.
Yeah, this mess has me rethinking my whole storage and treatment plan. Maybe I should upgrade my bulk tank to an IBC tote. I'd get 5x the storage, a built-in sloped bottom with drain, no need to worry about rust, probably less condensation with plastic instead of metal, and a built-in skid. As I think all this through, if I'm adding my own anti-gel why do I bother with station winter blends. Right now I try to plan out my bulk tank being empty with the station finally getting winter blend just in time. The Hotshots anti-gel is probably a more efficient way to drop cloud point compared to adding kerosene and unknown additives like I get from the station. I like running the Hotshots for the other benefits too so I'm most likely gonna keep using it. Plus the guys over there are going to test my fuel to see what is going on, send me an emergency kit (that I'll keep for a real emergency), and a replacement gallon of the anti-gel just in case I got a bad batch or something. Seems they want to know what's happening as much as I do. In Minnesota, we have a 5-20% bio requirement with 5% required in the winter. Apparently, there is no known way to stop bio from waxing. Maybe that is why I have wax mixed with clear fuel -- only the bio waxed and the petro-fuel is fine. In my 5-minutes of research online, the bio-proponents think 20F is "cold." It seems bio blends might be fine for winters above zero but here we will spend weeks below zero and can hit -40. Canola has one of the lowest bio cloud points at 32 and is a solid by 20*F -- I can't imagine that helps my fuel any. If I switch to a 250-gallon IBC tote for storage, maybe I can drive across the border to Delmer's land and get some real non-fatty fuel once a year and just treat it myself. Or maybe they're stuck with bio too.
If anyone wants more information on Winter Diesel, here is a good article to review: Biodiesel Cloud Point and Cold Weather Issues See: https://farm-energy.extension.org/biodiesel-cloud-point-and-cold-weather-issues/
I'm still not too sure about the inline filter. Some people with Lincoln welders experienced harder starting when an inline filter was installed on gas engines. Most of the ones I've seen still have a little air bubble in them. I'm not sure if that air bubble could cause a problem further down the fuel system. Diesel's have a good filter system to begin with so don't see the need for the inline filter. People have used clear hose to look for air bubbles but they are a temporary diagnostic tool.
Your perception about the air bubble is unfounded and untrue. And, that's technically not a filter added inline, it's a SCREEN. Big, big, big difference. Perhaps you haven't seen the umpteen threads where tank debris actually blocks the separator filters inlet? Or been around anything Caterpillar 314E and up since, say, 2015 or so? Or read the updates on adding an inline SCREEN on many, many, many skid steers? I'd be happy to link them here, to satisfy curiosity. I usually start by searching "3972".
Welder Dave, In post #48 ( HeavyEquipmentForums ), Boreal found a birch leaf in the inlet of his filter head. The concern of more debris in the fuel tank resulted in him installing the inline filter. I had a similar debris problem on my 242B and installed a clear basket screen filter between the fuel tank and the fuel pump ... it provides a good pre-filter that can be visually checked and is easily replaced if debris is present. The basket screen filter provides little flow restriction to the system ... unless plugged with debris or plugged with wax. If a supplementary in-line filter was not installed, the restriction would still occur further down stream in the fuel filter screen of the fuel pump (if equipped) or in the fuel separator / filter ... both which are not able to be visually checked. I am in agreement with heymccall that the in-line filter is beneficial for both operational and troubleshooting purposes.
OK, I know a lot of machines have a screen at the tank but didn't think an inline screen was a permanent addition. A leaf would likely get caught in the tank not further down the fuel line.
Water separators were sometimes built with a clear bowl and worked great, except when the inlet was restrictive I guess. The bowls get clouded and dirty though. Stanadyne used to use square glass filters that made diagnostics so easy. Even Cav used glass bowls on the bottom of the primary filter. At least glass could be cleaned if you kept up with it. Those all had their issues, but they worked good. The inline filter/screen does the same thing, even easier to see because the depth of fluid is less.
My tractor with a Perkins has the glass CAV agglomerator. The drain screw somehow got seized in place. I don't have many problems with water so didn't want to risk breaking the glass bowl. It is nice for seeing if you have water in the fuel.
I'm making progress. It's about 11 below now with -35ish windchill. I just got in from 6 hours of snow clearing. I kept 10 gallons of fuel inside the house so I could top it off with some warmth to help things along while she warmed up. With all the fuel being straight from the station in fuel cans, I still had the waxing but it was less severe than before. That could be because I added the warm fuel today. I just thawed the strainer with the heat gun until the wax was gone and we were back in business. I had to do that 3 times over a couple hours before the fuel warmed up enough to stay clear on its own. After the screen was staying clear of wax for a while, I added 1/2 a tank of fuel from my bulk tank then went in for dinner while I let it idle to circulate. I then ran the snowblower for about 3 hours with no issue. The strainer stayed clear the whole time. Since I have no idea what I'm getting for bio in my fuel and I don't have any simple solutions for non bio fuel, I think my only solution is to run some 12v heat tape with insulation along the inlet fuel line, strainer, and filter so I can heat them for the first hour of operation or so. Before I shut the machine down tonight, the fuel filter and screen were both 17° and clear. Of course that's the external temp taken with IR so the fuel is warmer than that. So whatever is waxing, was happy enough with that temp.
If I am reading it correctly, for the blend of 50% #1 and 50% #2 B5, the B5 would indicate 5% Biodiesel in the #2 fuel which works out to 2.5% Biodiesel in the blended 50% / 50% fuel. According to the paper I linked in Post #70 above, "Low blends of biodiesel tend to perform the same as diesel fuel in cold weather. Studies funded by the National Biodiesel Board indicate that blends of B2 or B5 have minimal or no effect on cold-flow properties of diesel blends."
The tobacco board says cigarettes are good for you. I wonder what a study funded by the petroleum board would find. Or a study funded by the cold climate snow pushers board. All I know is I have waxing when I shouldn't and high cloud point bio seems likely the culprit. Hopefully, it is just B5. I don't know how filling stations work but if the tank was 1/2 full of #2 B20 when they filled with the winter blend, did the guy filling accurately account for that? Our statute states they need a minimum of B5 in the winter. Maybe the sign is just showing they meet the minimum. Also, in the same paper you posted (a very good read thank you), "Winterization is the process of removing saturated methyl esters by cooling the fuel to cause crystallization and then separating the high melting components by filtration.... Winterization is generally not an efficient way of improving cold flow properties because of the high yield loss. It is also not practical in many cases to store the high CP fraction which was separated for summer use or to transport it to a warmer climate region, so it must be used as a lower-value fuel." it seems to me I am performing the winterization filtration. Anyhow, it'll be interesting to see what the Hotshots lab finds from my sample.
ThreeCW do you guys have bio in your winter fuel up there? Your climate is similar to ours right now. Curious if your equipment sits outside and has any waxing issues. I know you said your fuel is rated to -27 deg F but does it have bio?
The regulations vary throughout the country. In Alberta, the Renewable Fuels Standard requires a minimum annual average 2% renewable diesel in diesel fuel sold in Alberta by fuel suppliers. In my prior chats with my fuel supplier, the biodiesel content is higher in summer diesel so that a lower biodiesel content can be used in our winter diesel (if there is any at all in our coldest winter blend) ... in order to meet the annual average requirement. I have kept equipment in a heated building (+5 C / 41 F) and also in an unheated building. I buy untreated winter fuel typically 1000 L (265 USG) at a time when the coldest winter blend is available (-33 C / -27 F low temperature operating limit), put it into an empty tank and treat it with 1.5 times the recommended concentration of Stanadyne Performance Formula All Season Diesel Fuel Additive. The recommended treatment reduces the cold filter plug point by up to 25°F (13°C), depending on the base fuel. I have operated a cold stored machine down to -35 C /-31 F with no fuel related problems.
You might want to talk to other diesel users in your area to see what problems they are having (if any), find out where they are getting their diesel from, and what additives (if any) they are using.
I plan on it but most of the winter equipment around here is older and can probably handle a little waxing. Most of my neighbors have heated shops also where they keep their snow pushers and fuel. Probably a reason for that. I still think the inline heater is the solution. I think I found exactly what I want but it won't ship 'till January.
Which inline heater are you buying?
I'm just looking at getting some 12v heat tape and wrapping it in insulation. I have 120v heat tape on the filter now but that's only good while plugged in. I did some math on it the other night and if I can apply just 15 watts, it should raise the temp 20° during light work. Three feet of tape will give me that and only cost 1.25 amps. I plan to wrap the filter, screen and inlet line.