I have a 1900 hr 257b that I just bought. Near the end of the first tank of fuel, it went down on power(like I let off the throttle) it would surge like it was starving for fuel. When I took the cap off, it was "suctioned" to the tank. I refueled and it worked normal for quarter of a tank then went down again for maybe 45 seconds then ran normal. Since then, it has happened several times after about 1 to 2 hours of constant use. Today (at about just below 1/4 tank) had the same issue till I filled with fuel. Is it possible the fuel cap "vent" is not letting air in and vapor lock is forming? It seems that it only happens at low fuel or sustained run times, but is cured after the fuel cap is removed Is there a fuel pickup "tube" that can be blocked in the tank?
Could be the cap is bad, but you may have sucked up some crap into the filter, or have a filter that needs changing. Have you checked the water separator and drained if necessary..? When was the last time the fuel filters were changed..? This should be a regular maintenance practice. The fact that when you went down to 1/4 tank the 2nd time and had the same issue again suggests that the check valve in the fuel tank cap is not working properly.
The filter was changed by the dealer when I bought it. I have "looked at the separator" (the clear bowl right?) but have not emptied it since it happened on 1st, 2nd and 3rd tank of fuel since it was changed and it didn't appear to have any water in it. I' m suspecting the cap too, mainly due to the suction the first time, and the re-occurrence after continuous use. Hopefully, someone with previous "faulty cap" issues will chime in before I spend $$. The 1/4 tank thing may be poor indication and operating on a slope. This mornings occur acne was after only 10 minutes, but was at 1/4 tank, That's why I asked above a fuel pickup tube (airplanes and race cars use them due to bank angles and sloshing). Thanks for your help
Was there suction on the tank when it happened this time? These machines also have an electric fuel pump that fails quite regular. Can you hear the pump running when you turn the key to the start position with the armrest down.
Except for suction the first time, haven't really noticed any. Will listen for fuel pump tomorrow.Do the pumps go out gradually or just quit for good? I.e. Work intermittently? Or would it run for awhile without the pump working, and just bog down when you burn some fuel off and get on a slope? If it acts up, can I shut it down but leave it in run and listen for the pump? Or will that "reset it" where I won't be able to listen for it? Thanks
It will run without the electric lift pump working but it will have low power. As the tank gets lower it will get so that it only idles and it will cough and sputter if you try to revv it up. The pumps can fail slowly. There is a changeup pump that is supposed to last longer.
I listened for the pump and couldn't hear anything obvious (although it's hard to hear with the stupid beeper going.. I still don't know what purpose the beeper serves since I sat in seat, lowered arm, fastened seatbelt and beeper still goes....maybe a battery run-down protection) Anyway, best I can tell, no pump running (2007 257B series 2) if it is the pump how $$$$bad is it?
ok fast fix to see if it vapor locking on fuel cap drill a 1/8 hole in fuel cap but make sure you have if off and nothing falls in tank ...next if that's doesn't fix it pull pickup tube outta tank its clogged and cant get enuff fuel
The pump is mounted on the filter . You can take the line off that comes out of the filter to the fuel injection pump and put it in a bottle or jug . If you can then get someone to start it or reach in yourself and pull the armrest down and turn the key to start. It wont crank but the pump should run for about 10 seconds after you let go of the key. The pump is about 300 bucks . Its a little more for the better one It depends on your serial number whether you have the new pump already or not Description of Change: New pump groups are now being used on the machines that are listed above. These new pump groups will enhance the reliability of these machines. Adaptable To: The 349-5327 Fuel Priming Pump and Primary Filter Gp will replace the 258-3442 Fuel Priming Pump and Primary Filter Gp. The 349-5328 Fuel Priming Pump and Primary Filter Gp will replace the 305-6411 Fuel Priming Pump and Primary Filter Gp. The 361-3869 Fuel Priming Pump and Primary Filter Gp will replace the 232-5877 Fuel Priming Pump and Primary Filter Gp . Effectivity Model Adaptable to Machines Effective with Machines 259B3 S/N:YYZ1-416 S/N:YYZ417-UP 279C S/N:MBT1-1925 S/N:MBT1926-UP 289C S/N:JMP1-1738 S/N:JMP1739-UP 299C S/N:JSP1-1375 S/N:JSP1376-UP 257B3 S/N:B7H1-554 S/N:B7H555-UP 267B S/N:CYC1-1482 S/N:CYC1483-UP
I disassembled the fuel cap and cleaned the foam filter....It seems to be getting worse. It's doing it now at 1/2 tank when on an incline. It did it today and I opened the cap. It did not help the problem. It was still down on power and didn't get better after a few minutes. I refueled it and it got better within minutes. I think the cap is ok.i will try the pickup tube if I can figure out where it is.
I called cat today and they said $98 for a "transfer pump" I asked if that was the only one they had and they said "no, they have a priming pump also" I didn't get the price since they mentioned the transfer pump first. I asked if the priming pump was primarily for starting or running and the "parts guy" said it's mainly for starting. I will try your test of the "one on the filter". I was hoping the $98 pump was the one I needed, but sounds like it might not be.
I don't have a pump on top of my filter except "hand priming button. I have 3 fuel lines that go through the lower bulkhead: 1 goes to the injector rail (I assume return to tank) 1 goes to small filter before 3 inch pump mounted on side of engine (I assume it's called transfer pump, from this pump, fuel goes to the large filter in the picture, then to the fuel injector "manifold?") and 1 goes towards the cab (can't locate where it goes without raising the cab) I will pull the hose off the injectors this morning and test, then tilt the cab and check out the other lines. I guess I will have to tilt the can anyway if that small pump needs to be replaced.
Okay. I guess I should have gotten your serial number. I thought you had the newer style with an electric transfer pump. The mechanical pump was more reliable but can still give problems. Make sure you have good flow from the tank to the transfer pump. The pump on the engine should have a lever you can pump by hand. If you take the outlet line off that pump you should be able to see it pumping fuel when you stroke the lever. What is your serial number so I can give you more info.
0slk09627 2007 257b2 os1
If I can get into the system I'll try to post a diagram showing what the fuel lines look like on your particular machine.given the symptoms though I would say that the fuel transfer pump is starting to fail.
Thank you very much for your quick replies....by the way.
After THOROUGHLY cleaning the engine compartment, I can get a better view. After putting a light close to the small fuel filter and shaking it, I can see some garbage that has settled in the bottom. I will change it shortly and run the machine for awhile and see if that could be the issue (or a contributing factor). Still leaning towards the fuel pump, but start cheaper and work your way up I guess.
You can remove and wash the bowl under the filter. It gets used again so long as it is not damaged. You ought to replace the seal that goes between the bowl and the filter, should be a couple of $ - no more. If you have not replaced the filter recently I suggest that you do that at the same time. I would (in no particular order): - Clean fuel line from tank to filter/priming pump. Prove that hand priming pump is pulling fuel from tank without too much effort (do this with filter removed). Replace filter, clean bowl, replace using new seal. Prove fuel lines from filter to transfer pump are good by removing the incoming line at the pump and use the priming pump to flush the system. Prove the transfer pump by removing the fuel delivery line from it to the engine and manually operate the transfer pump. Here is a diagram of what your fuel lines look like. You can clearly see the priming pump/filter assembly and the transfer pump. I note you are missing the external drain hose from the tap on the bottom of the bowl to the ground. This is item 30 in the illustration, listed as 33cm of 8C-6959 Hose - price about $4. This is what your priming pump/fiter breaks down to. Item 1 is listed as a 156-1200 Element. Check the Part Number installed on your machine to make sure it's the same. If it is then all the following numbers are good. The bowl at the bottom is a 112-9401, you should not need to replace it unless the old one is cracked or damaged. The kit of seals for the filter, bowl, & drain tap is a 128-8614, you WILL need this kit to install the new filter. The seal kit is listed at $3.17, the filter itself at $18.46. Prices at your Cat dealer may vary a bit from these numbers but not by that much.
Thanks for the diagram..it really helps.I am using the machine daily (building my own house) and cat dealer is 1 hour round trip away, so I can't spend a whole day repairing, so I will have to take it in steps. I removed the fuel line, cleaned lines and changed the small filter.it was loaded with silt. I have switched to ultra low diesel so I can see through the filter better. After changing the filter, I primed it and another small load of silt filled the filter. I ran the machine for about 2 hours (7/8 tank down to 3/4 without issues)I will know better when it gets lower on fuel. The large filter was changed about 2 tanks of fuel ago (12 hours?)don't know if the dealer cleaned the bowl. I will remove and clean it next time I have a bog down or I have some free time.I wonder if there is a lot of crap in the tank that could be drained when I get down below 1/4. Is there a drain valve? Is it covered by a removable panel on bottom?
Appreciate your position needing the machine and the distance to the dealer. If the dealer changed the large filter 12 operating hours or so ago then the bowl had to be removed and installed on the new filter. The filter should still be good. If silt is accumulating in the bowl then try draining it daily and see what you get out of it. I don't think there is any sort of inspection cover to allow the tank to be drained and cleaned. I will check though and get back to you.
Thanks for your help. The silt is accumulating in the small filter between the tank and the engine mounted transfer pump. I'm considering getting a hand pump and syphoning the last qtr tank out through the fuel pickup to try and speed the cleaning process. Those small filters are $13 each, so if I can spend an hour trying to suck the grit out, it might save me a few filter changes. (It was owned by a tree service with 4 loaders so they probably pumped fuel out of a large tank and didn't bother with a screened funnel like I use)
According to the Service Manual there is a drain plug on the tank for water and sediment. It is located under the machine at the left rear corner. See illustration. Make sure you partially unscrew the cap to relieve any pressure that might be in the tank before removing the plug. The manual also suggests that the draining process be done when the tank is almost empty.
You are awesome....thanks!
You can remove and inspect the transfer pump on the engine before replacement there a small rubber diaphragm inside that does the pumping if it's ripped its won't work correctly. There's like 6 screws on top of it and a screen inside there as we'll Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I have seen the screen inside the pump be covered in crap and cause issues like your having, good place to look.
An interesting thread (subscribing). I have the very same machine, same year too. No fuel problems yet, thankfully.
To prevent this type of issue is quite easy. Make sure the water and sediment is drained from the filter bowl on a regular basis, how often really depends on how many hours a week put on the machine. Also maybe once or twice a year drain the crap out of the fuel tank.
Wondering if it was the silt causing the problem?
I have the same problem with my 257b. When it gets half a tank it sputters I’ve blew all the lines out changed fuel filters pulled the pick out thinking it might be broken. Still doing it. I’m wondering if it could be the transfer pump.
Welcome to the forum Calint.. Its very possible the lift pump is getting some age & should be checked.. U can take it apart & have a look & at the very least, clean the screen.. U say u blew the lines out.. UNLESS ur taking them off & blowing them out.. All your doing is blowing that "stuff" back into the fuel tank.. How about running it low & using the drain screw on the tank, get u a clean white or yellow bucket & SEE whats in there.. Good luck & let us know how u made out..
Never had anything to with a 257, but every machine we had at the quarry that had any kind of drain that would allow you to control the fuel coming out I would crack that open at every oil change and let it drain while I did the oil change. Very seldom got more than a couple drips of water but if not done for a year those few drips would have added up to a big mess in tank and filters! Same thing needs to be done on what ever tank you fill the machine from!
Had the same problem with my JD CT322 when I got it, would run for about 2 hrs than just fall on its face. Kept plugging the in line fuel filter at the tank. Found there was a bunch of dirt in the tank. Like you said, those filters get expensive. I bought 2 of the glass fuel filters that you can take apart and blow out the screens, whenever it would act up I would swap the filter out and clean up the plugged one so it would be ready to go next time it acted up again. I think I pretty much have all the dirt from the previous owner run out of it now as I haven't had any plugging problems in quiet some time, but it took several tank fulls of good clean fuel and numerous filter changes to run it out.
Hi guys. I know this is an old thread, but I read it with interest as I have had similar issues with my Cat 257B. Mine is a bit older (2005) but low hours. (Serial number SLK05345) The interesting thing is that there is no filter on the suction of the transfer pump (that's what Cat calls the pump that feeds the fuel rail pump). The filter is after the transfer pump. I have drained the tank, replaced the transfer/lift pump, and changed the water separator and fuel filter multiple times. I've also cleaned the screen in the transfer pump a number of times. I still get issues occasionally, and always on a lower tank level. I wonder if the transfer pump has enough suction head to pull fuel through a primary filter, if I install one. There are many after-market filter and filter housings available. Any thoughts on this? Also, I'm beginning to wonder if there is wear on the cam lobe that drives the mechanical transfer pump. There is nothing wrong with the pump or the diaphragm inside..
if the problems generally only rear their head when the tank level is low have you considered the possibility of an air leak in the fuel suction line inside the tank that only happens when the fuel level gets low enough to expose the dodgy section of the suction tube..?
Hi Nige. Thanks for the reply. I guess that's a possibility. Getting the unit out of the tank to check it will be a nightmare, but it seems I have exhausted most other possibilities.
Try draining water and sediment out of the tank and see if that helps. See post #22 above. Do you have an Operation & Maintenance Manual for it.?
I drained the tank last night and I'm on my way to get some fuel filters to start over. Hope it works. Did you consider my question regarding a filter prior to the lift pump? Is there a screen on the fuel pick up? Yes i have an operations and maintenance manual for it.
The jury's out as far as I'm concerned, although I think I would try to get it running right before introducing another unknown into the system. Heymccall, a member here, swears by an inline filter in the system. A link to it is below. HeavyEquipmentForums
Agreed. The lines to the tank are clear. The drained fuel was less than clean. I'll replace all the existing filters and new fuel and try again. I'm hoping the sediment has more or less drained out with the fuel. It would be helpful if the tank wasn't flat bottomed.. Ill be buying a few filters and change them again after running the machine a few hours or at least a tank of fuel.. I'll keep you posted.
Suggest that you should try to drain the tank of water and sediment on a regular basis until you are sure there is nothing left to come out. The cr@p ought to slop around the bottom of the tank as the machine moves and eventually work its way to the drain. At that point your new filters have half a chance of living.
Hi Nige. That's the plan for now. I drained the tank and replaced the main water separator filter, as well as cleaned the screen in the lift/transfer pump. I also installed a transparent in-line filter on the line from the tank to the transfer/lift pump. I used a small electric fuel pump to prime and bleed the system and to fill the filter(s). I then removed the electric pump and bled the remaining air from the system in a normal fashion. I worked the machine for a few hours. No issues yet and the suction in-line filter still appears to be clean.. I assume the sediment will make its' way to the suction tube eventually and be caught in the in-line filter. So far, so good.
Take the filter head apart. Ensure there is no debris in the head inlet, or the top of the filter housing. Pinch off your fuel line from tank and unscrew top plastic ring from filter head. Lift off primer. Lift out plastic funnel type insert. Clean out everything. If crap is found, use an inline screen between tank and filter (like in the before referenced thread. Your symptoms indicate a blockage/ restriction in the filter head. Unfortunately, it is very common.
Thanks heymccall.. That's good advice. Anything not caught in the left/transfer pump could accumulate in the filter head. I have installed the inline filter in the line from the tank to the lift pump. Initially I was concerned that the lift pump would not have enough suction head to pull through an inline filter, but it seems to be working fine. If it becomes partially plugged I suspect there could be issues with fuel starvation. So far, 4 days of work and no issues.
Hello all. I am having a problem priming my fuel system. I am not getting fuel into the fuel-water separator, therefore I’m not able to prime the fuel rail. Any suggestions? I have a 2005 257B. SLK00532
It was built 02/09/04. This hand primer is removable from the filter head. Once removed (by spinning off the plastic collar), you can inspect the diaphragm for distortion. Also, it is not uncommon for debris to accumulate and block the inlet to the separator housing. So, when you are inspecting the priming pump, it would be the perfect time to ensure that the inlet isn't plugged from the inlet elbow to the outer passage here. The thread listed above by Nige kinda covers it, but I thought I would clarify.
Seems like there's been a run of the same issue recently. I think this is the 3rd in a week if memory serves.
Thank you for the photos and clarification. Hopefully this will get it to prime.
Arrow points to diaphragm that distorts. And, did this happen after changing the filter? It is not uncommon for the O-ring to be omitted or lost when changing the element and reinstalling the water bowl. Arrow points to that here. If you lost or forgot that, it will never prime.
If it has a mechanical pump, there is a screen that never gets cleaned inside it. Pump is located on the block and it has a bolt on top. Loosen bolt and remove cap, be careful it has a small o-ring on the inside of the cap on the bolt. Take a pair of needle noise pliers and remove the screen. They are usually stopped up with debris. Good luck.
Hi everyone, I have a 2007 cat 257B perk 3024c unit loses power during WOT and moving forward it low rpms and when I let go of joysticks it seems to take 15s and rev’s back up. Also to add it seems fine when I have a full tank. What I’ve done- changed fuel/water separator, changed hoses, and also cleaned screen in manual fuel pump. Seems to be a fuel problem but also had milk in hydraulics so have changed that now as well.SN:SLK03916
It’s a supply and demand situation.. So it’s probably a partially clogged filter/screen somewhere.. When u DEMAND MORE FUEL, it’s not available.. Reread the past posts and go from there..
You said it runs good with a full tank.... check you pick up tube or hose in the tank....possible cracked above fuel level when not full. Milky hydraulic oil, try to find out where it's getting in at. Long term that not good for the hydraulic system. Hope you get it fixed soon. Good luck
So after further test I am mistaken I’m down to a quarter tank and it runs great at like a happy medium throttle but full throttle out of nowhere it bogs down and when you stop touching joysticks it picks back up within 30sec and then works like a dream. Seems to happen frequently when at full throttle. It’s like something is telling it to shut fuel down for a min and then when machine is standing still it revs back up. It’s strange- also to add I placed GoPro in compartment to watch fuel filter and it’s not losing fuel in filter
It won't "lose" fuel, just have reduced flow, which you cannot see.
It sounds like trash in the tank....I had a excavator do the same thing....it was a piece of plastic...like the kind around new filter.....it would float around in the tank and would get suck up by the pickup screen....and when it would be idled down or shut off it would float away from the pick up screen. Check your tank for debris of trash. One question, when you remove the fuel cap dose it hiss at you? Check your fuel cap, make sure its venting. It's hard to troubleshoot with out being hands on...lol...good luck
I’ve dumped the tank already and found lots of rust and black algae so when I filled back up I added cleaner for the algae. I’ll probably end up taking it to cat and seeing what it is. I’m over my head on this thing already- bought for 12k and have close to 30k in it now. New rollers tracks rebuilt motor hyd ecm- the guy before me bypassed the 2nd ecm so sooner or later I’ll be into a new one of them
If u put a “biocide” in the tank w new fuel.. its made to kill the algae..(obviously) NOW u got dead algae in the fuel. And guess where it ends up.?? in the lines and filters.. U always have to keep changing filters till it’s gone..