I need a wiring schematic for a 2017 Cat 259D FTL08734. If anyone has one laying around I’d appreciate it!
The reason I’m looking is I’m having problems with my coolant temp. The advanced display constantly reads 140°. Not sure if anybody has any insight into this? I’ve attached pictures I have 1 active event.
Attached schematic. Middle of 3 serial number series.
Have you tried resetting the display.?
Thank you I appreciate it!
Horrible sensor to get to. Need to check voltage across those wires with the sensor plugged in somehow. Signal wire voltage should vary between .1 and 4.9 volts or close to it. Start and warm engine. If the voltage doesn't change well that explains what the display is showing (sensor or eng harness issue). If it does change you most likely have a data link or display issue. For what it's worth try resetting your display as Nige suggested first. Takes 5-10 seconds. Literally press and hold the far left and the far right button on the display for 5 or 10 seconds.
I’ve tried resetting the display with no change. I did check voltage at the plug it said 5v. I’m not sure about checking voltage with the sensor plugged into the actual plug. I’m still curious as to why it doesn’t throw a code when unplugged. There is no changes. Even with a scanner hooked up still reads 140° from engine ECM.
You need what’s known as a set of “spoons” to attach to the ends of your meter leads. They are curved to the profile of the cable and can be slid along the wire inside a connector to make contact with the metal pins inside it. See this link. Other options are available. Electronic Specialties 616 Spoon Probe Backprober | eBay Electronic Specialties. Compatible with 4mm banana plug test leads, like ES 142-1 for example. About JB Tools. Permatex 24350 Surface Insensitive Threadlocker Blue, 50Ml Bottle. Milton 155 Siphon Spray Nozzle. www.ebay.com
Thank you I’ll get ahold of some and report back with what I find out!
So am I. It should also throw another code when you jumper the two wires. Below .1 volts and above 4.9 volts on the signal wire are supposed to be the trip points. Spoons are great but I'm not sure you'll be able to get them in there in that location. You might. Just do what you need to do and re-insulate the wires afterwards, not ideal but there's a right way and a wrong way to do it. Spoons will definitely work on the ECM end of those wires (EDIT: no they won't, ECM is Kubota).
I may be able to hook my scanner up and get readings possibly. I’ll have to check to make sure. That’s why I’m kinda worried it’s not throwing codes. I’m thinking it might be something in the Engine ECM.
My money’s on the sensor. But who knows, that’s why we troubleshoot. I’d prioritise getting voltage readings from the circuit before anything else.
Alright I can do that I’ll get back with you! I appreciate the help!
Might be a silly question but are you doing your measurements on the correct sensor.?
I’m almost certain it’s the right sensor it’s definitely a stretch to reach back too it.
My question stems from the fact that the sensor does not throw a Code whether it is connected or disconnected. You should double-check by confirming the wire colours/numbers (406 Purple & 221 Black) on the machine side of the sensor harness connector.
I double checked. It is the correct wiring in looking at.
Could it possibly be in the machine control module?
Could be the Engine ECM, could be the Display module. Worst case scenario it could be both. Flip a coin, do you feel lucky.?
Well like I said with a scanner hooked up reading from ecm it always says 140° from live feed also so probably leaning more towards ecm.
Expensive if it's the engiine ECM. Even if a Reman Part Number is available you could be looking at something like $3k+.
Why would we consider replacing ECM's without checking voltage on the sensor circuit? Just sayin. Scanner will only read the information supplied through the data link, which comes from ECMs, which comes from sensors.
Looking for a wiring diagram for a 259d SN FTL08239. Is there any wiring going to injection pump that would keep motor from starting?
Check your message inbox for an electrical schematic. The ECM controls the operation of the suction valve in the HP fuel pump so that would be a yes. However there is a lot more to the fuel system that that. What symptoms are you up against and what has been done so far in the way of maintenance or testing.? Does the electric fuel priming run for approximately 30 seconds then stop after you turn the key switch to the ON position.?
Motor was rebuilt and just installed. Hydraulic pump etc is not connected to motor. Motor cranks. Lift pump runs, but I need to test the flow and the duration. New fuel filter. Doesn't appear to be a line issue / plumbing. Not getting fuel to rail. If a sensor that was part of ECM circuit was not connected would that keep it from starting?
If it was an engine-related sensor probably yes. Can't say I have any experience of testing an engine that was not installed in a machine with all the drive and implement systems hooked up. Are you getting engine oil pressure.? Any warning lights on the dahs.?
Have fuel to the rail. Noticed when Im cranking I have no engine RPM. Have a running 279d and when that gets cranked it registers at about 200rpm. Is the RPM taken off the crank, Cam or some other sensor.
It's taken from both crank and camshaft sensors and if one or both signals is missing then it will throw a Code. Somehow it needs ET hooked up to the machine and download a PSR for study. You may have multiple issues and you really need to know exactly what you are dealing with in order to be able to accurately troubleshoot it. Problems inside the engine wiring harness can often cause an engine speed sensor Code. that's a very common one. I would imagine the harness was removed/refitted during the enging rebuild.?
So, how do you do that? I'm having the exact same issue. I have never seen a successful fix posted. Have you?
Did you get a successful fix??? I have the exact same issue.
Post a photo of your display please. Not all the available types of display have the capability of being reset. If you want to go further then a Serial Number is required.
I'll go get a Pic. It's a 2016 259d I was curious if the guy solved the problem of the gauge stuck at 140°? Did he fix it? personally I'm leaning toward it being the ecm. I have a brand new wiring harness and a new tstat and sensor. Plugged or unplugged it reads 140°. Even after an hour of run time.
Get the Serial Number as well while you are there. Which harness.?
FTL06865
The main one for the whole engine. Was like 1500 bucks
You have the Advanced Display. To reset, turn the key ON and allow 15 seconds or so for the panel to boot up. Press and hold the two outermost buttons on the bottom row for 5 seconds, then release. Turn the key OFF and leave it off for 60 seconds. When you turn the key ON again the display should be reset. I take it you have Diagnostic Codes.? Which ones.?
Main harness for the whole engine. It was like 1500 bucks I think
No codes
I'll give it a shot.
Diddly squat. Tried it 5x. Key on 15 sec to boot Press and hold 2 outside buttons for 5 sec Turn key off, waai 1 min and nothing. Still shows 140° on the water temp.
My money is the ECM.
Last throw of the dice. Disconnect both battery cables and leave overnight. Reconnect and see what happens. You might be right. The engine harness failure is more common but a faulty ECM is always a possibility. BTW the engine ECM is a Kubota part (munfactured by Denso IIRC) despite it also being sold under a Cat Part Number. Question: What resistance do you measure on wires 406-PU and 221-BK between the 2-pin connector at the coolant temp sensor and the Pins 15 and 5 of the engine ECM connector J2.?
I'd tend to agree with that other than the fact the harness is brand new and was installed at western states CAT. I tried jumping the pins in the connector and there was no change. The readout is showing what it's being told to display and I see no way that140° is some default readout if a component fails. To me it would read nothing if there was an open.
Sure wish that Matthew guy would reply
He hasn't been back in almost a year unfortunately.
If he's not replying, then either he got it fixed and doesn't need more help or he gave up trying. I'd just install an analog gauge if all I was looking for was an accurate temp, but as it never sees anything but 140° it always goes into high rpm in an attempt to get the engine up to operating temperature by throttling up. Too many bells an whistle on these things these days. I liked the good ol days when everything was analog and simple. They were made better then too.
It's an unfortunate symptom of the forum that a large pcercentage of posters never come back to give feedback on what the fix was.
Thanks for your help even though it didn't fix it. Gonna have to hit the books and start a tracing process. I can't even sell this this way. I wouldn't feel right. It's turned into a money pit. I'll never buy anything CAT again. Seems they're all falling off on quality anymore. I see where GM has to replace like 800k+ engines in vehicles they sold where they have faulty rod bearings and some have blown up even with less than 6k miles on them. Sad.
I'll be sure and come back if I find a proper fix.
If you disconnected the sensor and there were no codes, and you've replaced the engine harness, that smells very ECMish to me. Comes down to how much you want to gamble. Me, I would do this... 1) Remove the 80-pin engine ECM J2 plug. 2) Remove the two wires for the temp sensor (pins 5 and 15) and let them dangle. 3) Install two brand new wires into those pin 5 and pin 15 slots. Zip tie em out of the way somewhere. To do this you need to make use of the Kubota ECM plug repair kit (Cat p/n 423-1563, which comes with 5 replacement female terminals and a pin extractor tool). 4) Fire up engine and run it. After a few seconds you should get a 110-3 Engine Coolant Temperature : Voltage Above Normal code on the display. 5) Now connect the other ends of the new wires to create a short circuit. A 110-4 Engine Coolant Temperature : Voltage Below Normal code should appear. After all that, if engine temp still displays 140 deg F, no codes appear and those ECM connectors are clean, dry and free from damage, your ECM is bad. I hate to rub salt into the wound, replacing engine ECM will throw out your DPF soot/ash loading which means DPF will need to be cleaned/replaced at the same time, engine out job. If you weren't in Montana (cold weather, think hard starting) I'd almost suggest installing an aftermarket temp gage. (EDIT: Come to think if it, I think being stuck at 140 deg F will just give you aftertreatment issues in the near future. Only option is to repair or sell IMHO.)
Thanx for the info! 140° must be some default setting in the ecm. Do you know if this comes up or has come up before this thread. I couldn't find anything, but then this thread did not come up how I would normally word a question about this issue either requesting a wiring schematic. Also, what did you mean by"after treatment" issues. Unless that's a wink. Then I'll get it.
I'm guessing it means that the aftertreatment system will not function (regen) unless the coolant temperature is above a certain minimum value, or maybe it has to be within in a range of coolant temp values. I would consider "normal" coolant temp to be over 180 and possibly might also have to be below 210 for those purposes.
That's what I thought he was referring to. So then, it follows that it is a factory default setting of 140 as the temp to call for the engine to go into high rpm in order to get the engine to operating temperature until it reaches a preset threshold, like any diesel engine that is cold started, and really is not tied to the regen cycle. I'm under the impression that is cycled by time/hours of operation and sensors related to air flow. I'm not a mechanic, but it's how I interpret diesels work these days with all the emissions controls. I could very easily be wrong in this thought process. Just seems to me there would be multiple factors involved in calling for a regen cycle and not a base operating temperature. Those, to me, would be separate issues. Similar result and function related to temperature, but for two different functions. If the ecm never senses the engine reaches normal operating temperature it's going to continue kicking it into high throttle until it does. One would think oil temperature would be involved in this process, not just coolant temperature. Without the ecm ever recognizing a legitimate operating temperature it would never throw a code or shutdown override for overtemp.
I think it's more complex that that, but I'm not an expert in the field so I'll go no further than that. A not unreasonable assumption, but seeing as the engine doesn't have an oil temperature sensor then obviously it doesn't work that way. The System Operation says the following, but does not go into any detail regarding what are the trigger points and/or criteria necessary for a regen. Regeneration is required to remove soot from the DPF. Regeneration is a chemical process that converts soot (primarily Carbon) into carbon dioxide and water when in the presence of heat. There are two types of regeneration: Passive Regeneration This engine primarily uses passive regeneration with active regeneration as a secondary method to remove soot from the DPF. Passive regeneration occurs during normal machine operation by using heat in the exhaust stream to oxidize soot accumulations in the DPF. Passive regeneration is more effective when the engine is worked harder and the exhaust temperature increases. Idling and low to mild engine demand produces less heat, making passive regeneration less effective and causes soot to accumulate faster. Passive regeneration is most effective when the aftertreatment inlet temperature is above 350°C (662°F). Active Regeneration The engine ECM may automatically implement high temperature active regeneration to remove soot deposits in the DPF when soot levels reach 100%. This is visible in ET under “DPF Performance Status” screens. Note: The DPF soot load percentage will never show greater than 100 percent The high temperature active regeneration solution used by this engine is based on an oxy-exotherm design, also known as dosing. With this system, fuel is injected into the cylinder late in the exhaust stroke when the aftertreatment inlet is greater than 250°C (482°F). The unburned fuel is carried by the exhaust stream through the exhaust manifold and into the DPF canister where it chemically reacts with the catalytic coating on the DOC to produce heat. This chemical reaction enables exhaust temperatures to reach 650°C (1202°F) before entering the DPF, resulting in regeneration.
When a coolant temp sensor code becomes active, the system defaults to a much colder setting (below 0 deg F) on startup, then I believe once it gets going it defaults to normal operating temperature. Your 140 deg F is just an oddity. What I meant was, if the ECM thinks the coolant temp is 140 deg F, I'm not sure an active regen would ever initiate. Maybe it will, who knows. The only people that would know are the ones who wrote the software (and you eventually if you keep running it). Most regeneration on these machines is done passively anyway, using just exhaust heat. So if the existing soot/ash load isn't excessive, and you work the machine hard you might just be ok. My issue is, if the ECM thinks the engine is only running at 140 deg F, that could cause the injectors to slightly richen up the air/fuel mixture. That creates soot, which ends up in the DPF. The extra fuel added might be negligible, who knows. That's probably propriety information held by Kubota and possibly Cat, so we'll never know. Correct. Time, fuel burned and DPF pressure sensors. All three will trigger an active regen at a certain threshold. That's according to the book. So at some point in the future an active regen is going to be needed. Once you've absolutely determined this is an ECM fault (see post 51 above), I wonder if this ECM could be repaired by an aftermarket mob?