Hi, I have a 2013 CAT 272D XHP that I am having an issue with. When I turn the key on, the following will turn on - head lights, ac/heater fan, display light one bucket leveler, windshield washer. But display monitor will not come on, also if I turn key to try and start, it will not try to start, I don't even hear any relay clicking of anything when I do that. It has a bank new battery. I have check the following. ground strap under cab, and positive and negative cables at the battery and starter. I see it have two control module apparently, one on the engine (engine control) and one under the cab (machine control). The machine control is silver and not made of plastic, does it need dissembling to look for loose solder connections? Would you please help me out with this? I have been looking online for a service/troubleshooting manual and so far all I found was a similar schematic, and operators manual.
Can you post a machine Serial Number please. You will need an electrical schematic to assist you in tracing power.
Are you referring to this ID #
Oh machine serial number, sry about that, I will look tomorrow
Yes I am. The last 8 characters of that PIN are the machine Serial Number. Check your message inbox for an electrical schematic.
If the monitor is not powering up I would suggest you straight to the connector on the back side of it, and using the electrical schematic check powers & grounds both with the key in the OFF and the ON position. Pin 1 is constant battery+ provided the master switch (if equipped) is ON. Pin 8 should be energized when the key switch is turned to the ON position. Check both the above to Pin 2 - Ground.
So I tested pin 1 and its 12V and pin 8 is 12v when key is on, so its good there just no display, I tested the CAN wires on Connectors A and B unplugged along with battery disconnected, pins 25 and 26 on the A connector reads 62.8 ohms, and pings 23 and 31 on the B connector reads 73.4 ohms, so I think that means that is good, checking all four of those pins to ground for ohms the all read between 15M ohms to 17M ohms, so that check good is my conclusion??
I did check the CMM as well for 12V on pins 84 and 85 on the A side as wells as grounds 81 and 82, all looked good, with key on pin 69 on the A did have 12V.
I think your Monitor panel has died. Really need an oscilloscope to test the CAN signal. It’s the only way I know of.
Just to emphasise what Nige wrote in post #5. Are you back-probing the plug with it connected to the display, power on, when checking for power and ground? Front-probing for battery voltage with a DMM with the display unplugged doesn't necessarily mean you have enough current to power the display.
Yes, on the Display, I tested both with back probing and disconnected plug, and both had power/ground.
I think I have it down to this part as the most obvious, but I cannot this part on the schematic, does anyone have any idea, or what the proper name is and an after market part that will work?
I can see the last few digits of the Part number "080" so if the complete Part Number on the bottom line is 117-9080 then it is the relay for the air intake heater. Cat refer to it as a "Magnetic Switch Group". Oh, and make sure you're sitting down when you ask the price.. They are NOT cheap........
That could easily be retrofited with a Cole Hersee Relay that is high amps capable. They have a web site that lists them all. Worth less than around $50 US and will do the same job. I did this to a machine years ago, and it ran and started fine with it. It was at a mine in the far north that couldn't wait a few days to get one. Might have to make a plate to help mount, but will work. Simon C
Cole Hersee 24059 is one that I have used before. If unsure how to wire I will explain. Simon C
it looks like is switching 12v battery line (2 huge wires on top) and small two black lines are for 12v coil , but not sure of the circuit it drives
Nige said it is to send power to the Air Intake Heater to help with fuel air mixture ignition. Those grid heaters draw a fair amount of amps, there is more than 1 type on the Cole Hersee site. They vary in price. If the Cat one is close in price, then go that route, but if 2 or more times the price then there is options. I always have a 12 volt and a 24 Volt one at home for the next job. Have used them to replace all kinds of relays,. Simon C
I will say that the old one was quite rusted on the big cable stud hook up. Let us know what you end up doing. Simon C
There are two of them that I know of, I was trying to determine the circuit, this one is on the firewall on the right side by the starter. And another one is on the firewall under the cab behind where the seat is.
Don't have that exact schematic. Have other D series schematics, but not yours. Simon C
You have the electrical schematic. It’s easy to identify which one is which by looking at the wire numbers/colours connected to each one.
You are fortunate to have the A-Team already replying to your dilemma. I notice you are a fellow Texan, home to many rats & mice. Have you thoroughly searched for poop & the accompanying chewed wires? Especially under/behind access cover plates under your cab? I resolve many of my issues by repairing chewed wires. Interestingly, recently I found skunk hair inside an open electricals door of an excavator. A week later there was a pile of dung instead, ID'd by ScatID as a bobcat's.
Here are two snips from the electrical schematic. The easy way to tell which is which is by the two small 18 SWG wires that connect to the coil in each case. Also the fact that the main red power into one relay is 10SWG, the other one is 6 SWG. Big difference.
Thank you, I see it now, i missed that.
I would think even something as this or similar, would work as long as it can handle the amps. https://a.co/d/ezSlEK3 $20
That would work. The question I could not answer is for how long. Simon C
I understand , At this point, I'm just trying to get past no display no start condition and that's just one of the items I found
I keep finding things thinking it's going to be the fix, but not yet, lol. Thanks for everyone's help!! So far I found and fixed - 1. a melted relay, but still functioning (replaced) , 2. the 117-9080 all rusted to where nut was partially gone, 3. bare wires on the left side taillight area 4. A nail directly shorting two wires that go to the bucket lock release. For sure nice digging thru it all so I know all the things that need addressing. This morning I have a tech coming out with a scanner that will hopefully rule out the ecm, cmm, and point me in the right direction.
So the tech is saying that the display is causing the CAN to not communicate with the rest of the system and it needs to be replaced. His scanner is coming back with incomplete. "cat ecm detected on cdl data link not detected on j1939" I would think even with a dead display it would at least crank, but he is saying because of all the safety features without the display it will not allow it to crank. I bench tested the display later that day and with pins 1 and 2., and its only draws .4 milliamps , which I think it means that the display is totally dead, I would think that with power applied there would at the very minimum be a faint backlight, but it has nothing. The part number is 378-1006.02 does anyone know if this would have to be programmed if I buy a replacement and if this is the current suggested part number 543-1326, 5431326? These are pricey so I would like to be sure. $1,100-$1,400
There doesn't seem to be any clarity one way or the other. The operating software for the Advanced Display module has had a variety of Part Numbers over the years. I see 553-1194 being replaced by 578-6309 which in turn was replaced by the latest number 608-9077. Your local Cat dealer may be able to provide more information. If you could track down a used display then it would be guaranteed to have software loaded. Maybe not the latest Part Number, but it would certainly be plug & play as regards operation. The 378-1006 Part Number display was replaced by 543-1326, which in turn was replaced by the latest number 657-4558. There is also a Remanufactured Part Number of 20R8760 where your old display would be taken in part-ex for a remanufactured component.
Hello everyone, I'm finally able to look at this skidsteer again. Here my update. So I did purchase a new display and now it cranks, it will start only if I put one small squirt of starting fluid into the breather. Attached are the only two codes it has, currently my auto leveler (inclinameter) is missing so that is why I have that error. The fuel gauge most likely is because when I got the skidsteer the stock fuel tank was no longer used and it has an add on tank it's using. Also I am wondering if these two code are why the machine ecm shows incomplete. When I start on starting fluid everything appears to be working fine. Forward, reverse, turn, lift, lower, tilt bucket. I have SIS on a laptop but the program is kind of difficult to navigate and find what I need, currently I would like some sort of manual for troubleshooting, I'd like to test the fuel pressure but not sure if there is a port for they and where. Is there a general overall manual for troubleshooting I can purchase that someone recommends. Do anyone have any ideas on where I should look next or what my issue may be, it was working before as the previous owner started so I really don't think it is compression. I checked the hose out of the filter to the secondary pump is what I think it's called and it's clear, when I turn key on that line only has 10psi, not sure if that's normal, but I thought in the fuel rail it should be higher and so I'm trying g to figure out the best way to test that.
Did you prove yet whether or not the glow plug heater is working through the relay. It will need to work or it will need Starting fluid otherwise. That will be a good start. Simon C
No I have not, I will look the relay, I ended up disconnecting all the connections to the filter housing and verified all the ports are clear. Also I don't think I mentioned I did measure 10psi of fuel pressure coming out of the filter housing
I'm not sure mine has glow plugs, I could not see any, i going to look and see if my has an air intake heater instead. Another side question, does any one have a clue why the beeper always beeps and also what the red box symbol that is lit up is for? The yellow triangle blinks and beeps like every 2 seconds and never stops, and the red box also lights up see attachment.
Did you read the electrical schematic you were sent.? Your machine is equipped with an air intake heater, although somone has messed up the schematic by using an illustration with the icons for four glow plugs with a title of Air Inlet Heater under it..
I would suggest that you consider getting hold of an Operation Maintenance Manual at the earliest opportunity. Search for Caterpillar Publication reference SEBU9084. To answer your questions: - The flashing yellow alert indicator on the left is the general driver alert. It is usually an indication that something is wrong elsewhere because another indicator may also be lit at the same time. Machines equipped with aftertreatment systems generally use this indicator to show a problem with emissions equipment such as a failure of the DPF to regen. The red alert indicator signifies that the hydraulic system lockout is engerized. I suppose your next question is going to be which is the switch that de-energizes it.? Back to my recommendation above regarding a manual.
Sorry if I used the wrong terminalogy, but yes he needs to see if what I always called a toaster oven is working or not. Good of you to have posted the correct picture or else he would of been looking for it a long time on top of the head instead of the air intake where it is located. I always look for a large red cable and usually there is where I hang my micro clamp meter that can read up to 400 amps and fits in tight spots and tells me how much juice if any is flowing through. Better to always have the correct terminology or sometimes we might lead some down a rabbit hole. LOL Simon C
The Intake Heater is powered by a large Orange #6 cable coming from the Intake Heater Relay. The relay coil is energized by Wire F793-RP5 OR18. If your machine is outside and cold, there should be 12 volts at this small wire when trying to start. This relay may not work if the outside temperature is too warm. I seen a chart before that showed how they are controlled, and they are temperature controlled by the ECM to be on only as required. They can be on for a few seconds after start up to help get engine running smoother. If the heater is working then you will be looking at injection problems or something else. Needs to be verified good or bad. Simon C
Remember (as has been discussed before on other threads) that the intake heater strategy, like the one for the glow plugs, depends on the engine coolant temperature. A coolant temp sensor that is faulted or producing erroneous readings could potentially inhibit the operation of whichever start aid system the machine happens to be equipped with.
Thanks, the unit does have an operators manual I found, but it's difficult for me to follow. It's not like spelled out. My has a high pitch beep with the flashing amber light, but I don't thing the high pitch is the horn as it cannot be heard outside of cab with door closed
That beep (apparently coming from somewhere behind the dash panel as you sit in the seat) is the alarm associated with the Monitor System. Cat refer to it as the Cab Alarm. See Page 33 of the attachment which should be the same as the text in your Operation & Maintenance Manual. The audible Cab Alarm plus the flashing Driver Alert signifies a Level 3 Event requiring immediate safe shutdown.
I did end up find these cheaper on eBay and went ahead and replaced the 3rd party one I originally installed in case some one else needs one $25 delivered. https://ebay.us/m/1EX5te Thanks everyone
Nice, Would this cause or be considered a Level 3 event
Yes.
Ok, thank you very much. I want to try and get this running first then try the regen or get the item cleaned out professionally. I've heard it's a 1/2 to a day job to remove parts to clean/replace. Hopefully not really expensive to fix.
Update, so all the injectors were leaking, was another part of my problem, now that they are replaced along with the hp overflow limiter replacement on the fuel rail it starts right up every time. Thanks again for everyone ones help, now I have to deal with a couple more lingering issues I have in other threads and I should be ready to put it to work,.