I am at my wit's end. I drove it down onto a house pad and when the back end dropped off the 1' ledge the engine immediately quit. Hasn't started since. I had to have it craned out so we could continue work on the house. I've gone through every setting and sensor in ET and pulled a PSR (attached) and everything looks fine except low voltage on the Aux solenoid. Removed both air filters and sprayed ether ("Engine Starting Fluid") into the throat of the air intake, and it still cranks but simply will not kick off, even with ether. Diesels are so simple that it is incomprehensible that it won't kick over for at least a few seconds on ether. Cranking draws a heavy load on the battery so I'm pretty sure there's good compression. I've been studying the engine manuals and have almost gotten through fuel injection, but no ideas yet. I should also mention that it had been throwing a 'fuel rail leaking' code, so I removed the fuel rail and took off the overpressure valve, and found that the seat had eroded a groove for some reason. I'd replaced the fuel rail just a year ago for the same darned thing and it was $1,400. So I had a machine shop make a special plug out of bronze so I could use course then fine valve grinding compound to wear away that groove. The seat is not polished but it doesn't seem too bad so I put it back together. A groove eroded should not happen, especially in a Cat and especially not after about 200 hours and especially not with green fuel. Even if that valve is leaking or even if the whole fuel system doesn't work, the engine should still kick off with ether. Any suggestions? Need this machine or else have to rent one this week.
I agree with the either thing. Are all the start conditions meet in et. What’s rail pressure. The transfer pump on those, if it is the square one with the filter attached to it are junk. Will it fill up a dry filter. Cat recommends not filling the filter when changing it to help verify the pump is working. Had a 259 the other day with a tank full of mulch that should die and not start back. Remember with common rail they will not sputter out and die. Once fuel pressure drops below threshold in rail it will power down like you turned the key off. Double check rail pressure with desired. Leaking injectors can cause pressure to be dumped backing into return system. Usually ether will spin it hard enough to overcome the leak and start. Cap off injectors to find this.
Good question, what is rail pressure? Here's the engine; transfer pump doesn't look square. The pre-charge fuel pump does clatter for about a minute when ignition on -- right after I replaced the fuel rail it was loud then it quieted down as it primed. And the filter fills about an inch. Yikes. Maybe I need to loosen an injector pipe to let the rail fill. Then again, the injectors are supposed to be firing so they should let out the air. Understand, with the plunger chamber bypass, but the engine was running fine before the bump. Used to be when I had trouble starting for other reasons ether would start it just fine for a few seconds. But not now. It's defying the laws of physics. I've learned that the fuel rail overpressure valve activates at over 36,000psi! Wow. Maybe my grinding job is not good enough yet, but I won't know until it starts and throws the rail leaking code. The fuel pump's gear pump feeder should have no choice but to feed fuel from the main filter to the piston pump, and the piston pump then should feed fuel through the check-valve, although the pressure regulator could interfere with that. But if fed the check valve should allow rail pressure to build up even when just cranking. I'll check more stuff today. Thanks Mbar .
Is it throwing the fuel leakage code now? If so what exactly is the code? I see it's not on the PSR which is a good sign but is it coming up on the monitor? If no codes, what's your transfer pump pressure? Need 12psi deadheaded and .5 gal/min straight from the pump. Sucking any air? This achieves nothing in common rail systems and is bloody dangerous.
Rail pressure is the pressure in the common rail that the injector lines come off of. As stated. Losening lines does no got. If filter fill not fill change transfer pump after ensuring line is not clogged
Rail pressure is the pressure in the common rail that the injector lines come off of. As stated. Losening lines does nothing. If filters will not fill change transfer pump after ensuring line is not clogged you can get plugs to cap off lines coming off rail and monitor pressure with et.
It's not throwing a rail leakage code now or while cranking on the monitor. That sounds like good news. I do get a low battery code, but then I jumper and voltage goes up to 13.2. I'll check the pressures and gpm. Don't know what deadheaded means. And the manual doesn't refer to a 'transfer pump' so not certain what that is. There's a 'precharge pump' before the filter, a 'feed pump' (the gear pump after the filter), and a 'supply pump' (the main piston pump) according to the manual. I won't loosen an injector line, thanks. Idk if it's sucking air, haven't gotten to that part of the manual yet but it looks like a sight glass is needed.
Fuel transfer pump aka lift pump aka prime pump aka precharge pump. They're known for blowing fuses too, there'll be a fuse for it in the fuse box in the cab. The other pumps you mentioned are part of the HPFP (High Pressure Fuel Pump). Deadheading just means plugging the line you're testing. In other words, disconnect the outlet hose of the transfer pump, in you're case at the inlet to the main fuel filter housing, stick a guage in the end of the hose, then key on to give it 12 volts. You also want to hear that pump pulsing. I would also be charging those batteries. Hate for it to be something so simple.
As I stated. If it is that square pump that is picture above. If it will not fill a empty fuel bowl and no restrictions in the line. Throw that pice of crap in the trash. Just because they make noise doesn’t mean they are working. Cat keeps them in stock for a reason. The high pressure fuel pump is not designed to draw fuel from the tank. If you’ve been filling your filter housing and not letting the transfer pump so you it is bad you may have a failed pressure pump. Did you see what rail pressure is compared to desired during cranking.
Ohhh, yeah I do have that piece of crap. It only fills the filter with about an inch of fuel but I thought that was because it hadn't started. I'll show pics while cranking, in case I've missed anything. (click to enlarge) Should the Start Aid Relay be off while cranking? Looks to me like fuel rail pressure is 4,437 psi and delivery rate is 78.4 cubic mm, if I'm not mistaken. Looks like the engine is getting fuel, but where's it going? The oil doesn't smell like fuel. Getting fuel but not kicking is consistent with it not kicking on ether. I can not understand why it doesn't run. But I will be getting a new transfer pump.
Your 200 psi away from the desired psi. That means no start.
O! Transfer pump? Any idea why it won't kick on ether like it used to? Is it electronically inhibited somehow due to low rail pressure? HA! From SIS2: ... and my model is included.
Can’t explain the ether thing. If there is a throttle valve and not opening due to low pressure. Wouldn’t make a habit of trying to find out why
Unfortunately, no dice. Bought a new transfer pump, and it turned out the old one was the new part too. Installed it and no change. While cranking fuel pours into the filter but it never fills up, as if it's draining right back into the tank, just like before. Here are the new readings while cranking. The PSR is attached. I think the key is whatever the reason is that it will not start on ether. I do not see how that is possible though with a diesel. Is there a butterfly valve in the intake that's stuck closed? Or some other way intake air is being stopped? Edit: The only thing in the intake air path is the turbo compressor. This can only mean that the only thing determining engine speed is the length of injector squirts ?! This seems implausible, but has to be the only way. But I think that failing to kick on ether is the drop-dead Tell. Even if my fuel rail overpressure grinding job was schite it should still kick on ether. I wonder why fuel flows out of the filter as fast as it comes in while not cranking and the transfer pump is still clattering? Where's it going? Back to the tank somehow? Should I shoot myself in the head in the parking lot?
After reading all the above, let me throw out an idea. The problem is, and always was, a failing HP fuel pump (not the transfer pump). That, and a combination of rail leakage referred to above by the OP, is what originally threw the Low Rail Pressure Code. Replacing the rail with a new one fixed some of the leakage, enough of it that the failing HP pump was able to generate sufficient rail pressure to exceed the "Desired Engine Injector Metering Rail" pressure - so enough to light the fires. Now 200-odd hours later the wear in the HP pump has reached a point that even with what is effectively a leak-free rail the pump still can't generate enough pressure to cause the electronics to come out to play and inject fuel.
I'm also thinking this. The suspicious sign as Mbar mentioned above is the actual rail pressure 200 psi below desired rail pressure... ~100 psi should be ok, 200 psi could be just under meeting conditions required to start. This is consistent with (and will trigger) your fuel leakage codes, the ones I'm guessing you cleared before taking the PSR. The only other items that cause these fuel leakage codes are bad injectors and a faulty fuel level sender in the tank. Your soot levels look ok, you'll know if the fuel gage reads incorrectly, so this too leads towards the HPFP. The other thing that worries me is the failure rate of these fuel system components on your machine. It's done two fuel rails (given that the parts you replaced/repaired aren't technically serviceable from Cat) and likely now a pump at just over 2000 hours... first thing that comes to mind is fuel quality. Water is the likely culprit of erosion damage in fuel systems. Did you take any pictures of this overpressure valve you repaired? Would love to see. I've seen this a few times on perfectly running machines with this style of filter housing. The air lock only occurs after replacing the filter and quickly goes away once engine is running. I wouldn't base any assumptions on this alone. It's in there... Finally if you do the HPFP yourself don't forget it's timed to the engine and requires a calibration once complete. Also a really good idea to get that software upgraded by a dealer (I'd be inclined to do that first if it were me).
Thanks guys. I don't understand how the HPFP could fail. The gear pump should be bulletproof. Although the pressure regulator system might be suspect. Funny you should mention the fuel sender; it's reading almost empty when I'm quite sure the tank is at least 3/4 full. I'll try and get the sender out to physically confirm. My lapping job on the overpressure seat was not the greatest. Probably didn't spend enough time with the fine compound as the surface is definitely not polished. I had no idea it works at such high pressures and could be leaking; don't know whether it would show a rail leaking code on crank, but should remove the rail and do a better job. Pics? Sure! The rail. The eroded gaps. The special bronze tool I had made at a machine shop which fits perfectly square in the threaded hole. In the process of lapping. Put a piece of paper towel in the center hole to reduce the grinding compound that gets into the rail body. Hemostats are to carefully remove the paper towel. Completed and cleaned with brake cleaner. Water in the fuel. I'm one of those dummies who doesn't know where to buy red fuel in Everett, WA so I buy from the gas station, almost always a 76 station. Yes I had prior cleared all of the logged Events and Diags, among them '1239-1 fuel rail leak', 'water in fuel' (opened up filter housing and there was sludge in the bottom, so cleaned), '523603-15 Coolant temp high'- (don't know when this could have happened), '1761-17 catalyst tank low' (not true), '3516-11 catalyst reagent concentration other failure', E232-1, E232-2, E570-2, E571-2, E875-1, E875-2, E875-3, 2212-5 . None have recurred. (yet) Egh this is embarrassing. But I can't get past the idea that even if the whole fuel system is shut down, the Laws of Physics say a diesel should kick with ether. It is violating the Laws of Physics...
The fact is that on this type of common rail engine unless the Actual Rail Pressure equals or exceeds the Desired Rail Pressure during the cranking phase then the electronic system will not activate to fire the injectors and that's why no smoke comes out of the exhaust. Simple. It is wearing out, probably as a result of various types of contamination (water, dirt, etc) that has passed through it during its lifetime. This is not a common or garden gear pump designed for pumping some sort of lubricating oil, it is one manufactured to much tighter tolerances made to pump fuel to almost astronomically high pressures. As you mentioned Events logged for "water in fuel" and also you "opened up filter housing and there was sludge in the bottom" then there are the two likely suspects staring you right in the face. Common rail engines don't like contaminated fuel.......... On slightly larger models of Cat common rail engines diagnosing low rail pressure events went something like this:- 1. Replace the Rail Pressure Control Valve which on those engines was a separate serivceable part. If that didn't fix it........ 2. Replace the Rail. If that didn't fix it........... 3. Replace the HP Pump. Basically it was working from the cheapest to the most expensive parts-wise. Please note very carefully Chrisso's comment regarding the fact that the replacement HP pump will require timing to the engine if it is changed. I can't explain that unless there is another problem, also caused by contamination, that the engine is lacking compression. If the fuel system was as bad as your comments then what's the chances that the air intake system maintenance was of a similar standard.? The only thing you can do is fix the problems as you come across them. Get the HP fuel system playing ball first, then see what happens. My opinion (*other opinions are available).
The condition has to exist for a certain number of seconds to log a code, or maybe engine has to be running. Cat is known to fix/improve these issues in software upgrades. Helps with diagnosis. It's not embarrassing, it's just Tier 4 Final crap. Next time take a "before repair" PSR with all the faults listed and post that instead, that way we can see the full story. The "water in fuel" logged event tells everything. As Nige said it looks like you're going to be replacing parts from cheapest to the most expensive. It's not uncommon in your case to replace a fuel tank sender, rail, HPFP and all 4 injectors in that order until the issue is resolved. The book states the throttle valve is only used during during active regeneration. In reality who knows what it does the rest of the time. That info isn't readily available. It probably makes some kind of sense to keep it closed until all start conditions are met, ie adequate rail pressure.
But of course step #1 should be cleaning that tank out to remove that sludge you found in the separator.
Which would be really easy to do while the engine was out.....
Ok understand. When I found the sludge in the fuel filter canister I did drain and attempt to flush out the fuel tank, but it probably wasn't very effective. This is why I believe the actual fuel level to be about 3/4 because of what I put back (after filtering), rather than almost empty as it displays. I'll try and pull the sender today. I'll pull the rail and polish the overpressure seat better this weekend. The overpressure solenoid is not a separate part you can order from the fuel rail, understandably because of the seat in the rail. But still the rail is $1,400. I'm trying to not think about how much the HPFP would cost. More than the machine is worth? Luckily I did pull a PSR before I cleared the codes. Attached.
I don't think that was necessarily a good move. The old fuel should really have been used for another purpose and replaced with new fuel IMHO.
You're right. Have the sending unit out and there doesn't seem to be sludge. It moves freely. I was mistaken about the fuel level, it is almost empty. It was months ago so I guess I took the old fuel to recycling. I'm in the process of removing the fuel rail to better polish the seat.
Oh, for the second polishing of the fuel rail, it's not looking so good. After much work with the fine grit it went from being 'grindy' to absolutely smooth. I thought I was hot sh*t. Then I had a look at it cleaned: This was the clearest shot I could get but it definitely did not look 'polished'. I got out my high-mag Coils and there are clearly striations around the seat. Checking the bronze plug, same thing. So assuming the seat is brass, which it looks like, then it will be softer than the bronze plug, which evidently had the striations from the course grit. It is definitely improved from before but only a fraction of the surface will be in contact with the solenoid plate. Maybe I should ask the machine shop to re-mill the plug. I don't understand why they wouldn't take a mil or so off the seat; maybe I shouldn't have told them how much the part costs. DOH!
Whelp, I had my bronze tool refaced and ground the seat as best I could. But fuel rail pressure is much worse. In retrospect this should have been a steel tool to match the steel seat. (Threads are recessed away from the hole) Since nothing else has changed I suspect it is my wonderful lapping job. I have to buy a new rail now. Although, when reinstalling the rail I left off the feed from the HPFP and cranked it to flush the line. I expected a firehose... but it only piddled. For red fuel I've found the local CFN distributor (Nelson Petro) and have applied for a card there. Obviously 76 is bad news. And, saving 75 cents/gallon isn't so bad when 5 gallons cost $27. (!)
Have you ordered a new hpfp yet to go with the new rail
I'm trying to avoid the idea of a new HPFP. It has got to be preposterously expensive. I am planning to take it apart to see whether something has gummed it up. Remember the failure happened suddenly when I went down a bump, not gradually over time. I haven't checked yet whether individual parts inside the HPFP are orderable yet. But the advice on keeping its timing is well taken; I don't understand it yet but will when I read the procedure.
Just remember there is always a last time for something to work. Every time I change a starter it creates a argument. I get the saying “I mean it was working fine or “ it hasn’t been acting up “. You can check with Carolina Powertrain in Charlotte. Darrel York is who you need to talk to. I think your motor is kubota if im not mistaken.
And how much are you prepared on spend on other stuff that is 99% certain not to fix the problem rather than to shell out for a new "preposterously expensive" HPFP.? See post #15 on Page 1. There are no serviceable parts in the HP pump, neither is a Reman option available.
Oh, we don't have to be that way, now do we?
This doesn't make sense. To find TDC for cylinder 4, "Remove the cover on the flywheel for the Top Dead Center (TDC) mark. Rotate the flywheel counterclockwise and align TDC mark (3) with the TDC mark on the flywheel (2)". I don't see a cover on the flywheel other than the main big cover. And how can there be only one TDC? Isn't this a four-stroke so that the correct TDC is every other revolution? And what if I'd removed the idler gear? It doesn't say how that should be set, for the flywheel and pump.
The instructions state that you are finding TDC on one particular cylinder, not the other three. In actual fact you are finding TDC on #1 & #4 because on a 4-cylinder engine both those pistons rise & fall together. According to the instructions the Cover (1) is what they are referring to. Inside it you should find an arrow mark (2) and as you turn the flywheel the TDC mark (3) will appear. Line them up and off you go.
Understand but I've read those instructions over and over and there is no 1TC mark on the big gear visible when the pump cover is off. That big gear is an idler off the crank gear, and it drives the pump idler and cam gear. Is that the flywheel? My pump gear and idler look like this: I removed its idler gear assembly and turned the crank CCW over and over but no such markings on the big idler gear. And there is no other cover on the front engine cover which might expose this symbol. On the big idler there is one white marking which annotates two teeth, and another which annotates one tooth. I put an extra mark on one with a Sharpie but that went away when it got dipped in oil as I turned the crank. Good to know that 1 & 4 compress at the same time, and there are definite points while turning which compress. But it's a 50-50 chance of being 1-4 or 2-3, seems like. Seems like TDC ought to be annotated on the crank gear, not the big idler, but there doesn't seem to be a way to get at that other than pulling the whole front of the engine. It is a Kubota. I took apart the HPFP but there sure wasn't much to take apart. I blew out all I could with brake parts cleaner and put it back together. I'd like to try it before I shell out $2,600 for another pump. Here's what the pre-pump gear looks like, quite good: I have to suspect that the problem must be in its pressure regulator, but I took it apart as far as I could figure out and never found it.
And according to the instructions - "If the fuel supply pump gear timing mark (4) aligns with the idle gear timing mark (6), then piston number four is at TDC. If the timing marks do not mesh, rotate the flywheel counterclockwise one revolution and recheck the timing marks."
Understand that. But this presumes that the pump idler is aligned to the big idler. I'd removed my pump idler trying to find the infernal TDC marks. I could rotate the crank all day long and make the pump idler line up with the pump gear. But the big idler and crank gear must also be at TDC, and that is the problem. Am I being thick? So it seems to me that: a. First the crank must be at TDC for cyl 4, but I have found no apparent way to determine that. Fortunately the big idler is still aligned/timed with the crank gear. b. The pump idler must then be coordinated with the big idler, but the instructions assume that it has already been aligned to the big idler. They give no procedure for setting the pump idler to the big idler, which evidently it must be as it has a mark. Mine is no longer aligned/timed since I'd foolishly removed the pump idler. c. THEN, and only then, can I turn the pump gear and make it mesh with the pump idler so that the marks match. Maybe it's because I have a doctorate and come from the computer world, that it looks to me like there are large gaps in the information. For something this important, detail matters. Unless I am completely misapprehending the situation somehow.
TBH the opinion of the HEF massive is that, unlike a "conventional" (inline or rotary) fuel injection pump, the HPFP on a common-rail engine does NOT need to be timed in order to ensure accurate fuel injection. The reason for this is that the pump supplies a constant flow of HP fuel to the rail, the injection of which into each individual cylinder is controlled by the ECM "firing" the solenoid of each injector on command. The thinking is, and I have not personally seen it officially confirmed anywhere, that the pump should be "timed" to the crankshaft for reasons of correctly maintaining reciprocating/rotating mass balance of the engine components. That theory makes sense to me but as I say I have no independent confirmation that this is actually the reason. On a mechanical injection fuel system a specific volume of fuel is sent by the injection pump to a certain injector at a certain time, and each injector on the engine has its own dedicated HP fuel line from the pump right to the injector. You obviously have access to SIS. The section titled "Idler Gear, Remove and Install" may shed some light. That shows the engine with the front cover off. However It also makes mention that there may not be marks on all the gears. Yours may be one such engine. I quote - "Ensure that timing marks on the gears are aligned. Alternatively, make temporary timing marks on the gears in order to show alignment." - unquote. If you want a simple method of setting #4 piston on TDC of the firing stroke, do this: - 1. Remove the valve cover. 2. Turn the engine in the direction of rotation and observe the operation of the valves on #1 cylinder . 3. At some point the exhaust valve on #1 cylinder will be still closing while the inlet valve is just starting to open. Those two valves are what's known in the trade as "on the rock". 4. Find that point on the valves of #1 cylinder and #4 cylinder is guaranteed to be at TDC on the compression stroke.
Please allow me to be a dissenting voice in the massive. Despite supplying a "constant" flow of fuel, the HP pump is still a piston pump which delivers in pulses. The pump needs to be timed so the pulses coincide with the injection events. Carry on.........
Oh. My. Gosh. This makes all the sense in the world. There's a check-valve on the HPFP which the pump overcomes to keep the fuel rail charged, but the rail is effectively a storage tank. It only needs to remain charged to a minimum pressure and so there really is little/no timing requirement. No wonder Cat is so frickin' flaming vague. Alright, it's not worth it to me to remove the valve cover in the limited space, and with the risk of introducing leaks. I know the two compression peaks, so will pick one which hopefully corresponds to a white mark appearing in the HPFP's gearbox. Then I'll put in the pump idler with the mark aimed at the pump shaft, and the pump gear to match the white mark. I suspicion that any timing requirement in this case would be to provide a surge from the pump at a time of demand by the injectors. It'll probably work well enough if it works at all. Very well done Nige. Thank you. I'll keep y'all posted. Edit: Cmark it would be helpful if you provided insight on setting that timing.
I can live with that.
I can't really add anything beyond what Nige has said. Set the engine so that #4 is at TDC on its compression stroke and see if the timing marks are there. Because of the ratios between the crank gear, big idler and small idler the timing marks will only line up once every n revolutions. If they don't happen to line up, you will have to remove the front cover and reset the idler gear.
Oh. And I believe some confusion has arisen about the timing marks for setting TDC. I think they are behind the cover #6.
I have. found. the. problem. Today I decided to take apart the HPFP to have another look when, you know, I wasn't drinking. I noticed that I hadn't taken off the piston head. So I proceeded to work on the four bolts, but the first one was uh, LOOSE. WHA?! Loose as in a tiny gap under the bolt-head. I took off the head and this is what I found: (click to expand) The O-ring for the high pressure head had been carelessly installed, with no oil, and so the O-ring had been smushed. Whoever it was just tightened it up and it lasted a couple years. When I went down the ledge with a -bump- it was enough for the final loosening of the bolt, the head leaked, and the engine quit in a classic mechanical failure syndrome. Then I opened up the cover for the gear pump and that O-ring had also been smushed. I'll bet I'm not the only one this has happened to. DOH'Reilly Auto Parts only had fat O-rings and NAPTHA was closed, so it'll have to be Tuesday and a hydraulic hose shop to find decent O-rings.
So this timing thing doesn't make sense. I turn the crank 10-11 quarter-turns, and the mark comes up on the large idler gear. It is very clear during one of these full cycles, the two compression points, although I can't know which is 1-4 or 2-3. And neither of these compression points correspond with appearance of the mark on the large idler. I've looked everywhere for access to the flywheel but there is none on the front of the engine: The yellow mark on the HPFP's idler gear has disappeared, although there is a single dot on one side and a double-dot on the opposite side. I guess the single-dot is where the yellow mark used to be. Maybe I do have to resort to removing the valve cover. But that can only give an approximation of TDC, within several gear teeth.
Try looking at the rear RH side of the engine (opposite side to the starter motor) for the Plug #6 as posted by Cmark in the illustration a few posts above.
Oh, Ok thanks. It is just impossible to get to.
I am going to assume that the first compression in the rotation is 1-4. (I am too chicken to remove the valve cover, dropped bolts into the abyss, etc) Now all I have to do is determine direction of rotation. Docs say manually rotate CCW, but that's opposite of most gas engines.
The documentation should state something like "viewed from" either the front or the rear of the engine. Which way you happen to be looking makes somewhat of a difference.
If you can't get to the flywheel housing and don't want to remove the valve cover, the front housing is going to have to come off. In fact this is probably your quickest and simplest option anyway. And rotation is CCW from the flywheel end.
Yup. CW on the back end.
That's it. I can't fix this piece of ****. And I'm not putting in no $2,600 HPFP or $1.400 fuel rail. I am getting rid of it. I have far more important things to do.
That's the spirit
Wanna sell it
Yes I am selling it on Equipment Trader or at auction. I am banned at Cat so I can't have them fix it, after buying over $26k in parts to renew this PoS, and due to the old SIS being crappy misordered $2,400 of parts. They refused to credit them to me and so we have a disagreement. (Nothing to do with the engine) No more Cats for my company. It's Volvo or Deere. I am trying to build 9 houses, and am prosecuting three legal actions. I simply have more important things to do. I would get a new HPFP but I do not have the additional mental resources nor time to figure out the timing with precision. Their terrible, vague instructions are useless.
I can tell you in about three or four simple sentences how to reset the timing if you like?
Get at the back/side of the engine which is inaccessible, to reach the timing window? Remove the gear cover with its 25 bolts dribbling into Hades, not to mention pulling the harmonic balancer? Something else to do in a weekend following my countless other working weekends? I am curious though.
Yes. Perhaps I'm over simplifying it but. Remove crank pulley and timing cover. Rotate the crankshaft so the timing mark is at the 12:00 position. The camshaft timing mark will now be either pointing towards the big idler gear or away from it. If it is pointing away, rotate the crankshaft another 180 and the camshaft timing marks will now be pointing to the big idler gear. Remove the big idler gear and reposition it so its timing marks line up with the crank gear and cam gear timing marks. Position the small idler and pump so their timing marks line up. Reassemble.
This is very clear. And I remember that drawing. As daunting as it is to go through this exercise, I think it's worth a try, probably today. I'll stuff rags or something so bolts aren't as likely to fall under the engine. I guess I have to do it all over again, and maybe more, if I have to put in a new HPFP. But I can do that.
My apologies. This should be 360.
Thanks Cmark, but I just can not do it. Got most everything off today and tackled the crank pulley. Could not crack that bolt. Used a strap wrench but between the oil and coolant it just slipped. Paper towels didn't help. I'd borrowed a harmonic balancer puller, but the three holes in the pulley do not expose any bolt-holes anywhere around the diameter, so no way to lock the pulley. Used a hammer on the breaker-bar to try and shock it, but no dice. When I was younger I had the wherewithall, although then I did not have the massive mental pressures I have now. I just have to sell the turd.
I would use a 3/4 drive impact gun, but that's no use to you if you don't have one. Sorry for your frustration.
Well against my better judgment, I tried again. This time I put a pipe wrench on the crank pulley and was finally able to crack that crank bolt. So I carefully pried off the timing cover. Care must be taken at the crank while removing as a bearing gear there is close. The docs say to turn the crank CCW to set timing, and I'd assumed this is to allow for gear lash -- but this doesn't make sense. It's the crankshaft which drives everything and it turns CW. So I don't understand why docs say manually turn CCW for timing. Are they confused? I found the mark on the crank gear and wiped the oil off, but the -mark- came off instead, just as with the fuel pump gear! Is this a kindergarten engine here? So I marked it with a Sharpie. Now if you look carefully you'll notice three marks stamped in the gear in a triangle, one tooth away from the mark. Why wouldn't the stamped marks be TDC? Or is it? Second thing you'll notice in this picture is how loose the crank teeth are in relation to the large idler. This is disturbing. So I turned the crank CCW until the camshaft gear met the idler gear exactly, as in the drawing above. This is where the crank gear landed: Yep, it's off. The cam and crank gear are both supposed to be right at the idler gear... but they are NOT. I couldn't believe it so I turned the crank for two more full rotations of the cam gear, and same result every time. This is where the crank gear ends up. Where do I feel max compression? Here: Right where the crank should be, whether for 1-4 or 2-3, but the cam gear is definitely OFF. Or -is- it? Zoom in on the picture and there are two stamped dots on the cam gear which line up correctly at this position. Are the yellow marks just bogus? None of my pics captured the whole cam gear but it appears to have about 4x the number of teeth as the crank gear, which would make sense for a 4-stroke engine. I suspicion at this point that when I went down the 1' ledge with a *bump*, the crank gear teeth slipped, and the engine instantly died. Looks to me like the large idler gear bearing is worn so it is loose?! It appears that the crank gear slipped about 4/5 of a revolution. This would also account for why it won't kick on ether. It would be a miracle if I haven't crashed valves. How can a 2016 Cat have this kind of problem? Is the bearing/gear replaceable? Have I crashed valves? Seems to me that I should have -two- compression points in the cam turning cycle, one for 1-4 at TDC and one for 2-3 180 degrees away. I notice only one compression point, where I've shown. If I have crashed valves for 2-3, is there any sense replacing just them? Could the guides/seals be damaged as well? If so, is there an aftermarket source for rebuilt heads? Or would it be better to have this one rebuilt? I guess I could get valves/guides/seals, etc and provide to a machine shop. Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?
Ok, Reset. It now looks like the gap I thought I saw between the crank and big idler was actually the crank gear had slid proud of the idler and there's no gap after all. And I'm going to say that the paint dots are QC marks... not the timing marks. That the stamped engravings are the true marks. That's my decision and I've made up my mind. When I had the crank at TDC, looking carefully at the cam gear its two stamped dots are in the correct position. And I notice that the big idler also has stamped dots. I'll bet that when I remove and turn that idler, its dots will match those on the cam and crank when the timing is right. So then it's a simply matter to set the fuel pump idler and gear, quick put the cover back on without sealing and try it. When it still fails order a new HPFP. But this leaves open the question of why it would not kick on ether? And what is that other dot on the cam gear?
Correct. This was discussed earlier. Kubota apparently reference turning CCW from the flywheel end, which means CW at the pulley end. Not that it makes any difference for what you're doing.
A new $3,000 HPFP did -not- fix it.
And replacing the $1,300 fuel rail did not fix it. No change in the symptom. Cranks but will not start, even with ether.
See? Everything is perfectly fine. Except it will not start. It's a 15,000 pound brick.
I know you say it won't fire on ether, but just out of curiosity - does the throttle position % respond to the dial or is it always at zero.
Rail pressure still doesn't look right. Desired = 4641 psi, actual 4000 psi. A few months ago you were getting 4400 psi actual. Wouldn't surprise me if injector leakage is troubling this engine. However, did you do this this time around...
I'm not familiar with your engine, but I was looking at the data that you provided. And a few things jumped out at me. The engine rpm looks a bit slow while cranking. Your engine torque is at 65% and the load is at 87%. I would think that the rail pressure although lower than the desired pressure would start it if the engine was turning faster. I am wondering if you don't have a parasitic load on the engine from either the implement pump stroking up. Or the travel pump stroking up. I don't want to steer you in the wrong direction and hopefully someone more familiar with your engine could shine some light on this.
Cmark, I'll check. I'm pretty sure in the past the reading has responded to the dial. Chrisso, did not do a Fuel Pump Calibration Override. Will study. BigWrench the Aux solenoid is not working for some reason. (first image) I wonder if this is supposed to open for start, although that doesn't make sense as the Aux connections are closed on the arm. All solenoids are practically new, although there is a hydraulic leak at a connection above the solenoids which I haven't been able to fix. Don't understand "stroking up". Cranking the engine does indeed put a large strain on the battery, even when I'm jumping it from my SUV. While jumped with my SUV engine running, the voltage can go as low as 8. Seems very suspicious. The engine died instantly when I went down a 1' ledge, and the back end got a thump.
The pumps in your machine are axial piston pumps. They have a swash plate that is controlled by what is called compensator valve. If the valve has failed or for some other reason it is receiving load sense. Then the swash plate is moved to the full stroke position (stroking up). If this is the case then one of your pumps is putting out full flow. Thus you have a parasitic load and the the starter can't overcome the load to spin the engine fast enough. Like I said this is something that I observed through your data. I don't know enough about your machine to be certain. But the voltage drop you described on top of the data. Makes me lean towards my observation. I hope that someone more knowledgeable of your machine will clear this up. I don't want for you to chase ghost on my account.
David, next time you have ET hooked up, go to Diagnostics > Diagnostic Tests. Under your engine ECM you'll see an "override parameters" section. Tell me what's in there. The SIS procedures are vague but seem to suggest there's a fuel pump calibration "overide" function that needs to be done. I'm thinking you may need to "override" these parameters to get it running, then follow a calibration procedure once it is running... possibly. I always thought engine load factor while cranking should be 100%. At least that's what I've found a few times on other perfectly running engines. Load factor is just a calculation made by the ECM (actual fuel used divided by max theoretical fuel it can use for that particular condition). In reality I've seen load factors on cranking engines all over the place. I usually pay more attention to them when the engine is running. I'm by no means saying there's not potentially a parasitic load on this engine, there could be, I just think we need more evidence... Which brings me to cranking speed... needs to be at least 120 RPM while cranking on a new engine. Engines with higher hours (and less compression) need more, say 130 RPM or so. Battery voltage while cranking... needs to be at least 9 - 9.5 volts to keep power to the ECMs. Below this gets dicey. 10v is perfect. Now's the time to make sure that battery is perfectly charged.
That's the feedback that I was hoping to get. When it comes to machines that I work on the most. I am more familiar with those idiosyncrasies and would know if it was normal or not. I didn't want to have Dave chasing after bad information.
Cmark, the throttle position % does respond to the dial in E.T., from 0% to 100%. Chrisso, I couldn't find anything in UENR3423-22 about a fuel pump calibration override, even though it's referred to in the fuel pump install instructions. Well it looks like I've accidentally deleted the engine override paramerters, but it was only three items, none to do with the fuel pump.
This is slightly concerning... because this should generate a new diagnostic code if the engine ECM can't rectify this after a certain period of time, so I would definitely try to override these parameters. Here's a thought, override it from 0% to 100% and make sure you can hear it actuate. From what I understand, 100% means wide open. I would also try the same thing with the EGR control. For reference, here's a screenshot taken from a 299D3 at low idle, operating temp. Note the 25% throttle position and 14% EGR valve. But more importantly, desired values equal actual values. My gut feeling is still injector leakage on this, and I remember saying it's not uncommon to replace pump, rail & injectors on these in that order. Add to that list an ECM. But here's the thing... generally a dealer wouldn't go that far without some sort of consultation with their Technical Communicator, which is the person who talks to the Cat engineers... hence from here on the mechanic would be acting under guidance from Cat engineers, which is a good thing. Failing my abovementioned checks, I really think your only options here are to take another gamble and replace all 4 injectors (which you're going to need a dealer version of ET to program the injector codes) or take it to another dealer. The first thing a dealer needs to do is upgrade your software.
What do you think of the fact that it won't even fire on ether? That's what's confusing me. david_. How does it sound when cranking? Even, regular beats? Something else?
I figured the intake throttle must be closed, which is pretty normal if start conditions aren't met. But I am thinking a compression test will have to be done sooner or later... as well as a valve set & visual inspection of the rocker gear while cranking engine by hand. Thing that's got me beat is rail pressure. Desired should equal very very close to actual, even during crank. but we're still 640 psi out.
Cranking sounds normal although maybe a bit slow. I think at this point it's time to take it to the dealer for repair. I guess this is beyond me.
I think you've done well to get this far on a Tier 4 Final engine, considering this isn't something you do every day. Keep us in the loop.
Hi guys, I’m an idiot with diesels.. especially with these new CAT tier4… these filters were eventually replaced by me after …… local CAT dealer recommended replacing the engine due to 3 cylinders having low compression(did not get the actual psi readings from their diagnosis) and was leaking past the rings. I pulled the engine to put new rings in it and never actually confirmed their diagnosis because I’m stupid.. when I got to the pistons/rings… rings looked great. Cylinder walls had great cross hatchings(machine has 1500 total hrs) didn’t look like that was my actual problem and began suspecting this wouldn’t fix it…Well it didn’t fix it. Still a crank-no-start…next- I see these filters and replace them/clean bowl. Transfer pump fills bowl very fast but new filters have picked up what I believe is rust... I removed solenoid from top of HPFP and found the coil spring beneath had rusted and came apart. I was able to get a solenoid and spring off another engine. Still a crank no start. I haven’t had any actual codes set except engine speed sensor #2 data invalid/erratic.
Machine is 2017 299D2 XHP Serial # CAT0299DHDX202119
I never adjusted/removed anything with timing during all of this(left injection pump bolted to engine during repair) the above picture was after putting engine @ cylinder #4 TDC(flywheel marking 1 TC to its notch) I spun to that mark over and over and it was always one tooth off… also when I had the front cover off, the crank-idler-cam gear markings would never all line up together(always checking at the 1-TC mark on flywheel housing)
Basically during tear down, before pistons had been removed, when I got the front cover off I began trying to set engine to #4 TDC for teardown—why is CAT stupid and require #4 @ TDC in all its repair info for this engine when it’s always #1 TDC???? Any help is appreciated guys..
I feel so stupid for just jumping on their diagnosis and recommended repair♂️♂️ this has been an ordeal, I’m a small business owner/mobile mechanic, this customer was wanting to avoid the local CAT dealers $30k diagnosis/engine replacement since they won’t rebuild and just have me replace rings etc… had to purchase CAT adapter 3 and ET Version 2020a online though so that’s cool..
I didn’t own CAT ET until after the “repair” didn’t fix and didn’t even know about PSR’s until reading this thread…. So sorry I don’t have that..
Dav David, did you ever take yours to the dealer or get a diagnosis?
Also wanted to let you guys know. With my 299D2. It will run on ether, also my actual fuel rail pressure is and will exceed desired fuel rail pressure. I will try to get back over to machine and get a picture of the fuel usage data PID group while cranking engine
This thread has been a huge help and understanding this machine so wanted to thank you all for that. Any response and help is again very appreciated.
ANY UPDATE ON WHAT YOU HAVE FOUND THANKS
Sorry for the late response. The fix ended up being a new HPFP and all 4 injectors.
And the most likely reason was the dirt in the fuel filters shown in the photos in your Post #81 at the top of the page. Did you ever drain the fuel tank and clean all the cr@p out of it before completing the repair.?
Theese new fuel systems are Soo tight tolerances a little bit of water or dirt will wipe them out FAST! Essential to have clean fuel. Have done a few with gas being poured in the system and wiping pumps and injectors out fast also. Save your old fuel lines and make caps out of them, then you can cap off the rail and see if pump builds pressure, eliminated fuel injectors as with the 299 injectors suck to replace under valve cover. Top fuel pressure relief is up to 30,000 psi now on these fuel systems so be careful but cautious.
That’s a really good idea.
Just out of curiosity David, did you ever get to the bottom of this?