OK so today I was watching this video. At the 435 mark he states that Caterpillar 259D when it reaches the 3000 hour mark the computer throws a code and put the machine into limp mode.Can anyone shed some light on this? Is there any truth to this?He states that only a dealer is able to reset the computer and the EGR Regen code thereby restoring the machine to full working order.Sounds very expensive if you ask me, Ken
I'm pretty sure what he means is once the DPF filter is full it will do what he's saying. I'm pretty sure they give you a range of hours though, from somewhere around 3000 hours to somewhere around 5000 hours, it all depends on how hard the machine gets run as to when the DPF will need to be cleaned. At least that's what I think he's trying to say, I'm sure someone here probably has a little more knowledge on the subject than I do though.
It's been discussed here many times before. All machines with DPF installed need to have the snot run out of them so that they regen correctly at the correct intervals. They do not take well to puttering around or idling stationary for long periods at low engine RPM. If the machine is run right the chances of it requiring a reset by the dealer are minimized. Basically he's talking out of his *** when he desribes the "reason why". If that's what he's thinking having just taken delivery of his new machine then God help him.
DPF has to be removed and the ash cleaned out at some point between 3,000 and 5,000 hours on Tier 4 interim machines. Those are generally the machines that don't use DEF Fluid. It used to be that someone had to hook up a lap top and use SIS to tell the computer that it had been done. I've been away from them for a bit so it may be different now with the use of DEF.
First off, thanks for the replies. Would it be possible to remove the filter and vacuum or clean it manually? I suspect that the filter is basically a honeycomb design and is require to get very hot to burn the contaminants inside.On a skid steer this doesn't sound very likely, with the rpm being raised and lowered the temperature more than likely will never get to the "REGEN" temperature. If this situation happened to me with my temper i'd pull the filter off, put some diesel fuel inside and light the damn thing. Anyway thanks for the replies, Ken
Those machines have passive regen so there is nothing you have to do except run them hard enough to keep the exhaust hot. As far as the built up ash in the exhaust goes, I don't know of anyway other than some kind of machine used to clean them out with. As far as I know there is nothing that can be done manually to clean them out. Cat dealer do provide exchange units that just swap in and out when the time comes. As far as I know, you still have to have the brain reset. If you find out something different, let us all know.
It won't work. Don't ask me how I know this.... That's what I mentioned before, you have to run the snot out of this type of engine to get the exhaust temperature up, not putter around or leave it idling for long periods. To anybody who worked with 2-stroke engines in years past it was a standard practice to burn out the carbon in an exhaust by getting it hot with an oxy-acetylene torch and when it took fire just feed it pure oxygen until it was burned out. I've never had the nerve to attempt that with a DPF although I was sorely tempted on one occasion. TBH any machine of that size that gets to 3000 hours is probably only fit for the knacker's yard anyway.
Ok, I don't want to hijack the thread, but I have googled many things on this, many claim the filter can be cleaned or exchanged, how much does this cost? Example Kubota has a exchange program, take yours out , install theirs, send back the core if you would. How much is that? Does CAT or DEERE offer this in house? equipment to burn off, or do you have to buy new and if so I can't imagine , and would ET software be needed at all to reset anything?
I know Cat offered the exchange program when I left there. I don't know how much it costs. It probably depends on the type of machine and size. When I left it did require a lap top and software to reset the program.
I didn't watch the video and im not sure what hours the compact equipment does what. What i do know is a D8T with tier 4 final engine will turn on emmission service required message at 5k hours ,but it will still run fine no limp mode unless there is a problem. Sent machine to cat at 5600 hrs for the emmission service after they did the tracks and undercarriage, i went and inspected removes parts burner head aka ard head was getting eroded ,spark plug was definatly about toast and fuel injector was getting pretty coked up . Filter was reman exchange and et required to reset. Small machines suck and im pretty sure engine has to come out to service filter, quite a few truck dealers or for me a local radiator shop cleans dpf filters if your up to the diy task of getting them off.
I think most of CAT skid steers have a DPF service interval of 3000 hours. To my knowledge, no it will not de-rate once it hits 3000 hours. There is a service counter in the monitor and it will most likely just throw a warning reminder on the monitor at every key on to service the DPF. The dealer needs to come out and reset the derate if an operator allows the DPF to reach too high of level of soot. At its highest stage, you're buying a DPF because it is no longer useable. CAT actually does pretty good with the regen on their skid steers. There's a catalyst ahead of the DPF. When the DPF needs a regen, fuel is injected into the exhaust to "dose" the DOC. The diesel reacts with the DOC and creates the heat needed to perform the regen.
@walkerv on the skid steers I usually just go in from under the cab. I think its easier than yanking the engine out.
That's what the O&M recommendation is. I agree. There is nothing in the SysOp that indicates the engine will derate once the "Service the DPF" reminder message comes up on the monitor. I would've thought that with most users of this type of equipment moving their machinery around on a tag trailer then to get a reset done it would be just as easy to swing round to the dealer and have the reset done while the machine sits on the trailer. For those who aren't aware of it, the monitor contains "service counters" for all sorts of things. These include oil changes, filter servicing, etc, etc. When the appropriate hours clock up the monitor shows a message telling the operator that such-and-such is up for servicing. Some of thse intervals can be changed by the user to suit their specific servicing philosophy, others can't.
There are two types of regen. Passive regen. This occurs during normal operation of the machine IF the machine is being worked hard enough to get the exhaust hot enough. If the machine is not worked hard enough for passive regen to occur, then active regen must take place. Active regen. For this to happen either the operator must run the machine with the throttle dial in the upper range for a period of time, or the machine must be parked for the active regen to be carried out automatically. The exhaust temperature is raised by altering the fuel injection timing. If the operator doesn't allow active regen to take place, after a series of warnings, the engine will start to derate. If active regen STILL isn't allowed to occur, the engine will derate to almost idle and ET will be required to carry out the regen. Note also that active regen won't happen if the engine has any active fault codes present. The regen process burns the soot from the DPF. The DPF then collects the ash. The ash loading is calculated by the ECM based on time, fuel used and other variables. 3000 hours is the time limit recommended to either clean or replace the DPF. Nothing will happen if it isn't replaced at 3000 hours except the ash load will continue to increase. As the calculated ash load increases, active regen will occur more often. If the ash load gets to the point where regen is occuring more than every half-hour, error codes will be logged. When the DPF is either cleaned or replaced, ET must be used to reset the ash loading. Information in SIS on the emissions system is pretty fragmented and the above is based both on this and my own first hand experience. It applies only to D series skid steers with the Tier 4 interim Kubota engines. (Non SCR emissions systems, that is, engines that don't use DEF)
Well said, my 2015 CAT 908M 99% sure uses a Kubota engine(pretty sure I saw that on engine, made for CAT etc.), my machine has 1300 hours, when I get to 3,000 hours or so CAN THE DPF filter be burnt out or cleaned by independent sources or is this controlled by CAT? 1.) would I unbolt bring it to my CAT dealer and pick it up a day or so later? and how much to "burn/clean" 2.) Do they exchange one for mine etc. if so what would that cost in us dollars? 3.) And as others say, I then have to have them come to my shop, hook up the laptop and reset, etc another large field service bill....
Yes, independent shops offer DPF cleaning and no, it isn't controlled by Cat. Not many dealers actually clean in-house and will use independent shops as above. You will have to ask. Exchange or new DPFs are available through the Cat parts system. This is the easiest way though not necessarily the cheapest. Yes, the ash loading will have to be reset, either by your dealer or an independent mechanic with ET. Just a note on the cleaning. They are not "burnt out". The burning of the soot takes place during regen. The cleaning is removing the ash. It's done either by high volume compressed air or by washing with some kind of liquid cleaner. *Edit. And another thing to note. To maximise the time between DPF cleanings make sure you are using the recommended Ultra Low Sulphur engine oil.*
Thank you very much for the informative explanation !
You got that right. Finding emissions system information is like looking for a needle in a haystack. What amazes me is that unless I'm missing something Cat dealer techs ought not to have access to any more information about emissions equipment online than we do.
Well I just looked up CAT #436-1068 kit-catalyst=$2,605.33 ! (gosh knows what other misc. parts), I think I would find an independent to clean, then call CAT to re-set with software, when the time comes, gosh do the bigger units that take DEF have issues like this or cheaper to maintain?
It's not a question of size. Tier 4 final engines which use DEF don't, as far as I know, have a requirement to clean the DPF. I think we need a glossary: SIS - Cat's Service Information System ET - Cat's Electronic Technician DPF - Diesel Particulate filter SCR - Selective Catalytic Reduction ie. engines that use DEF DEF - Diesel Exhaust Fluid (urea)
But that's not what we were talking about............ that's the cat, not the DPF. The DPF is available as a Reman Part Number. Try pricing 20R-8036
Ah ha! Nige/Mark you are correct, MUCH better! $1,451.67 w/core ...$1,827.50 w/o my mistake. Look I didn't want to hijack the thread, but, the large CAT engines (100 hp and up) that use DEF Fluid, when something goes bad(meaning emission stuff, are the parts more expensive then my 908M that doesn't use DEF Fluid? I'm just asking as a general question, I learned a lot on this thread!
Lots changed when they got to Tier 4 Final and the use of DEF. DEF makes it so they can run the exhaust temperatures up again making for fewer particulates, less NOX production and far less soot production. The recommendations for ash removal changed drastically when the DEF systems were added. I've been out of the Cat system for more than two and half years now so maybe someone can comment on the newer systems.
C3.3B in the skid steer line does not use SCR as its under the HP threshold. The C3.8 in the 299D/272D has an SCR catalyst. To my knowledge, only those 2 models use the C3.8.
Some of the Cat engines have also been updated to delete the EGR system and rely on DEF and DPF/DOC to control the emissions
A step in the right direction IMO. Keep that emission crap off the engine.
My cat dealer just informed me of a 3 week turn around if they do the dpf....engine removal filter removal filter sent to be put in an oven for a week filter returned then tractor reassembled
As a matter of interest did they quote you a price..?
No they did not just informed me of how long i would be without my machine.....
Why not ask them, just for sh1ts & giggles.? I'd be interested how much the estimate would be compared to a Reman DPF unit. Also get them to give you a detailed Parts breakdown of what they would put in it. It would be good info for anyone else who fancied a bit of DIY.
Not to rub salt into the wound but how many hours are on the machine?
On a skid steer? What size? I can turn one of those around in under 2 days if I've got the new parts sitting on the bench.
* Did you say the engine has to come out? Maybe I miss read, if that is the case ***!
I’d seen that too. Hence the comment about getting a detailed quotation for the work the dealer was proposing to do, in addition to a list of the parts involved.
Nige, Has to be wrong! At least on my 908M I can see the dam thing in my face, I never heard of a motor being pulled out to service that filter, but what do I know, agree, I would get things in writing regarding cost and so forth or seek an independent and maybe they would have CAT software to even reset code if required.....
But on a skid steer the space above the engine is much more limited. Never having worked on one with emissions equipment fitted I have no idea if there is enough space between the engine and the roof of the engine cover to both access the hardware necessary to free the DPF, and then to remove the DPF out of the bodywork. If I can find a photo showing the engine compartment with the rear door open I’ll post it up.
my mistake, I didn't think about that, those engines are crammed in there!
I've done quite a few skid steer DPFs. I've always done it by going in from under the cab. The way its bolted onto the back of the engine its virtually impossible to remove the DPF/DOC mounting bolts with the engine in. They go up from the bottom. If you pull the firewall out, you can sit under the cab and they're right there.
I'm sorry, but some dealers are just absolute dicks...."well sir, you'll be without your machine for three weeks, sorry we didn't mention that to you when you bought it, just tell your customers to wait, I'm sure they'll understand, sounds like you should have planned a vacation...." I'm sure that can't be right, any place that told me I'd be without the machine for three weeks because a serviceable part needs to be changed out would lose me as a customer immediately. What they told you just can't be right.....
I have to agree, especially a CAT? I don't know if CAT provides "in house" cleaning ? I am located in NH, my nearest CAT dealer is 16 miles away, and it is HUGH new facility! (very impressive) Next time I stop by , I will have to ask if they provide that service or maybe they have an exchange program, but your point is valid .
Sometimes it's just a matter of asking the right questions. If the dealer is propsing to strip the machine down, send the removed DPF away to a 3rd party supplier and have it cleaned, then reinstalled when it's returned I can see it certainly taking more than the "couple of days" that 92U3406 mentioned above in post #32. At that point the next logical question would be - "OK, that's 3 weeks if you send my DPF away for cleaning and wait for it to come back. Do you have a service exchange/Reman program for that job and if so how much does that cost..?"
For something like a DPF, I very much doubt it bearing in mind the wide variety of units that are out there. They're far more likely to send it out to a company that specializes in cleaning them.
DPF filter location
We clean ours. Each branch that has a truck shop has a DPF machine and our turnaround time is pretty quick. Now of course that’s the ones that are round and come apart I am not sure about some of the funny shaped ones. I can definitely see a longer time if it has to be sent out.
Holy cr@p. Never was the expression “a quart squeezed into a pint pot” more apt....
The above photo is from a 299D/272D. Those use the C3.8. The smaller machines in the Cat lineup use the C3.3B and they have "slightly" more room. Oh yes, the rad does lift up. But only about 4 inches.
Getting that DPF out the back of a skid steer reminds me of the story about the lady surgeon who enrolled in a car maintenance class. After the test at the end of the class she was awarded a 150% score by the teacher - 100% for doing everything in the test perfectly and an additional 50% for doing it all via the exhaust pipe & muffler.........
Removing the cooling pack is a prerequisite to doing just about anything on the D series skid steers. It isn't that difficult though.
This reinforces my trade machines right around 2000hrs theory.
Jeez, if that was us we'd be changing machines 3-4 times a year ...!!
We do landscaping and our machines don't run all day everyday. We trade machines every few years.
I guess it will work as long as your income stays up and you don't mind making payments, endlessly.
We only make payments when its 0%. We only put a few hundred hours on a year typically. We do a lot of paver patios so there are a fair amount of days the loaders sit and only move pallets around as they are needed. It seems like once you get over the 2k hour mark you start to have more issues.
I'm no fan of being in hock for everything, but you have to think of it as "making payments" even if you own the machine outright. Opportunity cost for the money and all that. Of course in this era of 0% interest the opportunity is low. Of course the interest on financing is low also.
I always find these conversations interesting. I don't know that there is a universal right answer for everyone. A SSL/CTL for nonproduction type work, making endless payments on a machine that holds that kind of role is hard to understand. So running them longer would seem be a better value. The same machine that is instrumental in the success of a business it can make more sense to rotate earlier, even if that includes payments at least to me. It is not just an hourly or mechanical breakdown issue for me to replace, but also what additional productivity (if any) a new machine can bring. Money has been cheap for a long time, and that allows for options that are not available when interests rates are high. There is a long list of effects that drive buying decisions and they vary in importance for everyone. Nige are you putting 6-8K hours on a SSL/CTL a year?
When I was appraising for the Cat dealer I ran into this stuff all the time. Someone buys a small machine and runs it till the first big maintenance item, like undercarriage is nearly worn out and then wants to trade it in trying to avoid the cost. It doesn't work at the franchised dealer level that has people like me on staff as the cost to repair is taken out of the trade value up front and the salesmen then adds another years worth of payments or another point on the interest rate and we just start the show all over again. That's why I say you have to be high balling in order to support that type of cycling capital cost. It will work when you figure all the inputs and outputs, finance costs, taxes, ,maintenance, repairs, people costs and income and monitor them close. I've also seen the blood bath in 2008 catch a few of those guys on the payment cycle who brought the machines back and dumped them in the yard saying they couldn't make the payments anymore.
As John rightly says, dealers are neither stupid nor are they running a charity. Anyone who goes to trade a machine that is coming up to major component or undercarriage replacement then the value of doing that work will be factored into the offered trade-in price. Nothing is free. KSSS - our SSLs will probably clock around 2-3k hours a year. My comment was more related to our general fleet working 24/7/365, but the same philosophy still applies. The chassis is IMO the critical item, so long as it’s repairable then everything else is bolt-on and and can be replaced ad infintum so long as the chassis remians good. Our excavators, dozers & graders are set for an 80k life, trucks 120k.
Boy some great comments! I do commercial snow plowing during the winter months, however thank god two out of our three lots were contract, crappy winter here in the northeast ( I'm located 38 miles north of Boston), with that said, we had a 2011 John Deere 244J compact wheel loader, travel speed 18.9 mph, we rode to various lots most within 2-4 miles from our shop, did not have a skid steer coupler, NO RIDE CONTROL! We bought it used, 2014 for $48,000, had about 2,100 hours when we bought it, sold it to a friend who has a landscape company wanted it for yard and snow removal, our shop is heated and always was garage and cleaned. February 2019 I sold it to him with 2,440 hours give or take, again sits all spring-Fall , just used in the winter months, sold it for $45,000, I found a CAT 908M, pretty well loaded, Travel speed 22 MPH option , 1,200 hours, CAT just did oil change/filters, diffs, wheels etc,(owner was OCD) , he wanted $70,000 for the machine, I offered $64,500 he accepted. So I took the $45,000 from the Deere I sold,(I owed nothing on machine), And put in another $19,500 cash, I am 57 now, and finally I don't have any payments, etc., yes, a lot of my stuff is old(er) but very good shape etc. Now the CAT 908M again will be used for just snow, we have a Metal pless wing plow, few more HP and weight then the 244J, I was told this machine today with all the options is over $108,000 ! for a baby CAT! Holy Crap......but when I see zero percent financing its a tough one, yes a small machine , for us a good size based on our lots, but down the road for service, who knows, but we own it out right, maybe I paid too much for the 908M, but I checked online, seemed to be in check, But I will say you "Pros" bring up valid points , this is a great site. I also want to thank everyone that is always offering to help us novices!
After reading this post again I probably need to add a caveat here. I fix 'em, I don't buy the new ones or have to sell the older machinery (although TBH usually when we're finished with them cutting them up for scrap is probably the most likely option). So my comments above are purely from a "repairability" perspective. I let the bean counters worry about their beans, I have enough to worry about with my own **** without worrying about anyone else's.......
So has anyone deleted these machines?
Not to change the topic, however all this information has me wondering about "ready for this" diesel marine applications also diesel locomotives using DEF.
Not advisable unless you live in Canada - where it’s legal. See this thread as an example of the **** you can land into by doing what you suggest. No dealer will touch this machine. HeavyEquipmentForums
There are rail locomotives running round already using DEF.
10-4 I was just curious. I am in the market to buy a smaller compact wheel loader so I was just wondering.