Hello, My Cat 308e2 CR is experiencing a start, run rough and immediately stop issue. Change both fuel filters and a new fuel pump. Also blew out the fuel lines and its getting plenty fuel. Codes displayed are E875, 590-9, and 2448-9. Google tells me it an electrical issue. So we have been removing and cleaning all electrical connections. Inspecting all wires, put in a new battery and master switch. We even changed the crank position sensor and cam position sensor. The machine only has 2400 hours. Not sure what to do. Serial number is cat0308ehfjx06856. Thank you
All depends if those codes are active or just logged. That determines our troubleshooting path. E875 is low battery voltage. The -9’s are abnormal update rate for the engine ECM and Display Module. You get these when the modules don’t power up (usually due to low battery voltage). I reckon if those codes are active it won’t start at all. Can you see engine RPM in the display while it’s cranking, stumbling etc? Does it look correct?
Well done Google, even though the problem is electronic rather than electrical.......... My suspicion is that the engine could be going into derate/shutdown as a result of the communications issues between the ECMs. Let's start with the E875. This Event is for low system voltage and needs to be tackled first. Is it Active at this time.? Does it have a -1, -2, or -3 suffix.? This will indicate the level of severity. I'm sure @Simon C will be able to give you some pointers regarding how to accurately test the system voltage even if the engine doesn't run for long. 590-9 & 2448-9 are both Diagnostic Codes indicating communication failure between the various electronic modules via the CAN Datalink on the machine. See the attachment for the troubleshooting procedure which will be Step 2 after the E875. You're going to need an electrical schematic for the machine. Check your message inbox.
Hello, I'm not seeing an indication of RPM on the display, everything else but that. It did have a dead battery for a week and I started it with a jump pack. It then slowly lost power and has the current issue
On the low electric code it displays a (1) and also a (2)
I think you most likely need to address the electrical system voltage before wasting time and energy on the comms Codes. If you take a multimeter and stick one of the probes directly on to the centre of each battery terminal what voltage do you measure.?
More info on the E875. E875-1. Activates when the system voltage is less than 8.0v for more than 30 seconds. Deactivates when the system voltage exceeds 9.0v for more than 2 seconds. E875-2. Activates when the system voltage is less than 8.0v for more than 60 seconds. Deactivates when the system voltage exceeds 9.0v for more than 2 seconds. E875-3. Activates when the system voltage is less than 8.0v for more than 120 seconds. Deactivates when the system voltage exceeds 9.0v for more than 2 seconds.
Looked at your schematic, and there is a lot of Battery Positives feeding the Engine computer along with quite a few grounds. Computers will not tolerate low voltage or poor path back to ground. In Post #1 you said you cleaned and inspected a whole lot of connections. That is good, but does not guarantee that the power is making it from A-B. Your machine has 1 battery on the schematics. Does it start and run for XXX number of seconds or no longer starts. Does it start and run longer with a jump pack. How far down does the battery drop while starting. The alternator will kick in within about 5 seconds of starting, how much is the battery receiving of its output while running. Have you checked any of the powers and grounds at the computer while starting and before starting to see if clean power was there. There is also an Engine Power 3 Relay and a Main Engine Relay that will need to be checked. By any chance does your Engine have a tiny In-Line Fuel Filter that could be plugged almost 100% that allows it to start but die before the Alternator kicks in. Some Model have the filter. Nige would know from the parts Book. We are not there and can only ask questions, please explain how you tested any of these things as any error in testing can derail the troubleshooting procedure. By the way, just seen a machine I worked on 2 weeks ago with 1100 hours that a ground cable was pure junk, and friend showed me a picture of faulty Battery Positive Power cable on truck that was completely severed internally that looked beautiful until the skin came off. Need to check a lot of simple things before firing the parts cannon. If you have some questions or are not sure how to test, just ask as I was not born knowing these things either. Simon C
It does have the tiny inline filter, a new one along with a primary fuel filter and fuel was installed last week. The fuel flow was tested and very good. A new battery was installed last week and tested at 12.57 volts. When trying to start battery volts drops to 8 volts, it starts and runs very rough, volts jump back up to 12.57, runs for 3 seconds and dies. A jump pack didn't effect the run time. I will check the relays next and then power to the computers. This is not fun but hopefully will get figured out soon. Thank you for the help so far.
Fuel pump was installed
If the battery drops to 8 volts when starting, you are drawing too many amps from starter, battery is defective, or you have hydraulic load causing extra amps draw. At 70 F temperature outside that battery in 3-5 seconds should never have dropped below 10.0 volts. You should get a quality 1000Amp DC clamp on to see how many amps it uses when dropping to the 8 volts. Instead try another machine boosting with the booster car or truck revved up to 2000 RPM and producing 14 volts, just to see what it does. Not sure how much voltage the jump pack puts out . If it runs longer we will check more on the alternator side of things. Most alternators won't send 14 volts for a few seconds, and between lower volts and maybe some not perfect connections the engine just dies. Like to see a picture of your battery box. Simon C
On the new battery I hooked up jumper cables and the voltage read 14v on the tester and in the cab. Upon starting it dropped to 12v, started and ran for 3 seconds at 14v and died. Im going to start chasing voltage on the power wires to computers
Once you have established that you have all powers and grounds present to the ECMs the next step would be to go through the troubleshooting procedure for the lack of comms on the CAN network.
^^^^^^^ as Nige has said and then, While checking all the powers and grounds, check the 3 relays sitting side by side on the schematic, they are just above the battery, ( Relay Glow PWR, Relay Main PWR 2, Relay Engine PWR 3 ). I would pull out and run a 10 amp bulb or 15 amp bulb through them for 5-10 minutes to see if one of them drops out. Guaranteed things will shut down if one of them drops out especially the last 2 after it starts. Simon C
In addition to what everyone else has said, can you help us understand exactly what codes are active/logged and when. Particularly intrested what codes are active with the key switch on, just after the engine has died. Refer to example below. Should be able to have this screen active during your start/run rough/stop ordeal...
The thing is I'd expect to see silly codes logged on a machine that's had it's battery go dead recently. Would love to know desired versus actual fuel pressure and engine RPM readings from both engine speed sensors. She's a common rail fuel system. If it's not communicating with the engine ECM it just wont start. If it's running and it looses communication with the engine ECM, it'll just shut down like you turned the key off. No stumbling involved. If the HPFP has failed, or rail pressure isn't right, or if an engine speed sensor is bad, it'll do exactly what you're describing. Just sayin...
My issue is, it was working fine. I didn't use it for a month, then a dead battery and now the problems. Just doesn't make since. Should I try a new engine speed sensor, while I keep checking wires on it.
Depends on how much it costs. I would have to go back and look if it has a cam sensor and crank sensor. If it has both unplug one at a time and try to run it. Those last 2 relays just above the battery on the schematic get there signal from different places . ( RLY Main PWR 2) - Gets its power from Machine Control ECM Pin # 18. ( RLY ENG PWR #3 ) - Gets its power from Fuse Mini ( WKLT DELAY 113-8492 ) and from other legs of a splice. Would be worth going to check if one leg of the fuses is loose. Had that at a place I worked at, they wanted to buy $12000 computer and I consulted the shop foreman to check for clean power to the Eng ECM and they found the fuse loose. Found a Case TV380 Track skid steer that would just drop out in one second that had a loose pin on one relay with only 900 HRS on it. I tightened up about 15 Relay female receiver pins and it has never died since. Worth back probing each one of the relays on start up to see if one is dropping out the signal to control the relay. Make sure you make a list of all the stuff you have tested or you will miss one or start second guessing yourself. Any one of these things can kill it instantly, sometimes with zero fault codes. Simon C
This got me thinking. I wonder if it is coming to the point of needing diagnostics hooked up to see what the fuel system is doing.?
Probably not a bad idea. We're flying a bit blind. Steve, does your diesel smell like diesel?
This got me thinking. A hydraulic pump swash plate stuck at full displacement would cause these symptoms too.
Unplugged crankshaft sensor. Motor ran even worse. Also took longer to fire a cylinder, plugged crank back in. Same spitting and spudering like the beginning. I Unplugged the cam shaft sensor. Tried to start it and it has the same spitting and spudering like nothing has changed
Would a Cat ET read all these issue. Which version is needed.
Had that on a Ingersoll Rand large compactor. Engine would not start, got to job with batteries disconnected and told change the starter. I did and no start but would turn over. After trying that a couple times had someone else crank it over and crank went forward 4 turns. Then it turned counterclockwise about 3 turns. End of job. Hydrualic filter was totally full of cuttings. 6000 hrs machine junk. So it could be a hydraulic problem, has to be ruled out. Simon C
Your machine was built in August 2016, so theoretically any version of ET from 2016 onwards should connect. I suspect that even ET from a couple of years earlier than the machine, say 2014/2015, would also work. If ET is hooked up to the machine then please ensure that a Product Status Report is downloaded before any parameter is modified or Diagnostic Code is erased. There are plenty of videos on YouTube showing how to do it. Just make sure the PSR is downloaded in the optional Adobe pdf format.
So what happened was the machine started an ran fine, idled up with was working. After 5 minutes it started to loose power slowly. Like a clogged fuel filter. So changed all filters and here we. So I don't think its a hydraulic issue
Have you checked the tank for contamination.? There should be a drain valve or plug underneath it somewhere. If the primary filter/water separator has a clear bowl does it fill up with fuel before you run the engine.? The symptoms you describe above are somewhat typical of a blocked fuel system.
It has a brand new cartridge filter and online filter along with a new fuel pump. I blow out the lines with air compressor to check for a clog. After all the filters and pump change all air was purged and fuel flow as it should
Was any of the purging done while the engine was running.? It wouldn't be the first time that a floater in the tank got pulled into the end of the suction line when the engine was pulling fuel, then when the engine is stopped it drops away and gives the impression that there is no problem. Just saying you might be missing a trick not looking closer at the tank, even if only to rule it out.
Not sure how hard it would be to run it off of a Jerry Can of fuel with return fuel into a different can so there can be no chance of bubbles getting into the line. As Nige said above, need to rule out a floater that just goes when suction is on tank. Had a Volvo Rock truck would not take fuel even with 5 psi air pushing into tank. Disconnected the suction line from filter and blew hard with air and suddenly bubbling in tank. It immediately took fuel and started after that, never fixed it as taking tank out was a pain. Owner did not want to fix. Local county had a garbage compactor that died with no fuel, Changed all the filters and ran again for 30 seconds and died,. They worked on it for full day with Cat support, only to find out the second set of filters were plugged instantly. New filters again and never died again. Cost day and half of Finning Labour to find out. Might not be your problem, but might be, needs to be ruled out. Simon C
No, the engine lost power and all the filter changing was done after. But im going to purge everything again.
So while my guy Kyle been chasing electrical stuff I decided to chase fuel flow. With the key in run position. At the inlet to the injector pump was a very strong flow. I put it back on and removed the return line from the injector pump, very little flow like the size of a pencil lead. So I put the return line back on and cracked an injector line at the head. No flow at all. I thought this was odd since someone previously asked me to do this or am I doing a purge at the injectors wrong. FYI I had a cat 235C and changed injectors before then purged them by cracking the line and hand pumping it. Steve
Well there's your low rail pressure. Cracking lines while engine is turning is not a recommended practice and actually does more harm then good to your fuel lines, not to mention the safety aspect. (edit: This applies to all common rail engines.) Your 235C was a mechanical fuel pump and is a different kettle of fish compared to your 308 with a common rail fuel system running at tens of thousands of PSI. There's some more checks you can do in post #29 of this thread... HeavyEquipmentForums Whatever you do, don't pull the fuel pump without timing the engine. There's a special procedure for it. But first things first, I'd want to know what the engine ECM 'thinks' the rail pressure is before tearing into it.
Today I hooked up the Cat ET. The requested fuel rails pressure and actual pressure was within 20
I the looked at the exhaust regen. This was at the max number and a regen was requested. Could thus be the issue. The soot level to high? Could it plug yhe exhaust
I also had the 2 codes for fuel rail and engine speed sensor
What should I do next?
My guess is to check the wiring, and sensors for if you see anything out of the ordinary. Can you pull the speed sensor out and check the end for dirt or damage. I don't have the schematics or for your unit, but am sure someone will have. Simon C
Here's what I suggest, in the following order. One thing to note is that the Diagnostic Codes on your screen shot were Logged, meaning that they were Active at one time but are not Active at the time the ET was connected to the machine. 1. Download a Product Status Report using ET. See this LINK to a training video that walks you through the process. Take note of the video at around 6:00 where it shows how to download the report in an optional Adobe pdf format. You will nee to do this because otherwise if you upload it here no-one else will be able to read it. 2. Use ET to erase the 4 Logged Diagnostic Codes shown on the screen shot. When you have done this, disconnect ET electronically using the menu bar then turn the key OFF for 30 seconds. After that, power the machine up and connect ET again. Check that all the Logged Codes have been successfully erased. If that is the case download a second PSR as confirmation of that. 3. Attempt to start the engine a dozen or so times. Reconnect ET and check for Active or Logged Codes. Report your results.
Hello, Let me start this post with a thanks for the help so far. At this point I'm even more puzzled after the ET scans. I was hoping for a clearer picture of the issue and now it's just not. So I followed Nige's request and here is the first PSR.
I then proceeded to step 2 and did another PSR
I started the machine 13 times and each time it would stall out after a few seconds of rough running. Then I ran a third PSR.
Out of curiosity I pulled the end off the exhaust filter to see if it's plugged. It looked ok on the end, but the other side is the one I would rather see. The PSR are showing no codes after attempting to start 13 times and stalling out. This just doesn't make sense. Question, does this engine have an electric cutoff solenoid or is that turn off function happen at the control of the injectors.
My son has a 308 that a while back started having the same issues and I remember his finding of a shorted wire that was the total cause so I just ask him where he found this and here is what he told me. May or may not help you but his situation was the same so it might be worth giving it a shot since it was a simple repair. Let me know if this does turn out to be something. "Follow the harness from the TPS down the block, and there was a hanger (thin metal about 1/2”x2” long) bolted to the block that stuck out. It was touching the main harness and had rubbed against it. Grounding the wire."
No it does not. The ECM simply stops firing the injectors when the key is turned off. Attached is some information describing the operation of the fuel system. Take particular note of the illustration on page 3. There is a spring (arrowed) that is known to fail. Sometimes it creates Codes, sometimes not. If you can access the bottom of the HPFP it may pay you to take a look at that, but do it with the pump installed in the engine because removing/installing it is time consuming and a pain to get right - in other words easy to get wrong. It does if you consider what has been discussed numerous times up to this point; a restriction/blockage in the low-pressure fuel system. There is still an unresolved question mark over that part as far as I am concerned although I could be mistaken in that.
So I'm guessing you weren't cranking the engine when you cracked the injector line. If that's the case disregard what I said about low rail pressure (again not that I'd recommend doing this on common rail engines). Because... If it stays this way while cranking, and does so every time, we can rule out the high pressure fuel pump, and the low pressure fuel system in my opinion. According to the engine ECM that DPF is not blocked. It almost looks too clean... like someone has recently done a "DPF service reset" in ET clean. We'll get to that. Going back to basics for a minute: Fuel: We have it at the right pressure at the injectors, which is great, but I still haven't seen a definitive answer from one of my earlier questions... Are you sure your fuel is good fuel? I think we're at the point where you need to get a jerry of fresh diesel and hook it up to the suction side of the electric fuel pump. Prime the heck out of it and go again. Air: - Has anyone checked the turbo to see if it freespins? Or is it jammed and in pieces? - Given we're in an 8 ton excavator, it shouldn't be too involved to undo the DPF 4 x mounting bolts and the 4 x bolts at the DPF inlet, slide the DPF out an inch or so, leaving all the sensors connected and see if it fires. - Now you have ET, run an Air Motor Valve test under the "service proceedures". While this is happening, pull the boost hose and visibly check the throttle valve butterfly moves during the test and make sure the butterfly hasn't come loose blocking the air flow. Compression: It runs on ether so you have compression. Wouldn't hurt to pull the valve cover and check valve lash. Failing all that we're in the territory of replacing injectors and ECM's, but my money's still on bad fuel.
Another thing that is puzzling me. Refer to the screen shot in Post #37 back on Page 2. Four Logged Diagnostic Codes appear on that screen, two in the engine ECM and two in the Machine ECM. Yet in the first PSR (Report One) you uploaded only 157-3 appears. Do you have any idea whether or not some of the Codes that appeared on your screen shot were erased before the first PSR was downloaded.? If they were not erased intentionally then it has me scratching my head somewhat as to how they mysteriously disappeared.
I never did see how the Power Relay 2 was tested. It does output with a 8 guage Purple Cable that can handle about 40 -50 Amps. It feeds and runs everything almost. It is situated below the operators seat. A relay like that cannot be tested with some small load. Taken off and tested on a bench. That cable passes through some connectors including Conn#16, feeds the Switched Fuse " ECM Key On" and a whole bunch of other things including Both at the Engine ECM Key On Inputs. Hope all of this was tested as it could hurt to find out after the parts cannon that it was something simple. We are not there and only believe all was tested correctly. Simon C
I was browsing the thread and noticed this cut off screenshot. If you looked at the desired rail pressure, max was 11458 psi, but the actual rail pressure max was 6519 psi. This is a GROSS deviation from the desired. I would record a full test cycle and capture the live data to see when the rail pressure starts to deviate. If the deviation increases more at higher RPM or under load, you should thoroughly check the low side fuel system. Make sure the electric priming pump is running well, install a clear section of tube on the inlet of the HPFP and observe. If those check out, I would immediately separate the HPFP return, rail return, and injection return and measure each return at no load idle. Here is my reasoning: You ran a 13 cycle test that resulted in the engine stalling, but no codes were set. The ECM can detect many things, but a sudden loss of fuel pressure isn't always one of them. Monitors trigger overtime more dependably than suddenly. The "157- 3 Engine Injector Metering Rail #1 Pressure: Voltage Above Normal" code to me reads as either pin fretting of the fuel rail pressure sensor, shorted sensor return, sensor ground loss, or someone disconnecting the sensor while the ECM was powered, the latter over the former considering the code was not set again. Most HPFP failures I have seen before just not running at all give these symptoms, but as Nige is stressing, you can't move on to any high pressure testing until you prove beyond a doubt the low side is completely functional.
It is fresh fuel that I burn in all the other equipment. I did an ohms test on the
These got erases before the first psr
Since the statement never got finished, what did you OHM test out of curiosity. Simon C
Ohms on the suction control valve.
So I installed a new suction control valve. Started immediately an ran perfect for the first 5 seconds. Then proceeded to stall. Tried starting again. Stalled out again in 3 seconds. Started again, stalled out in seconds. Tried starting again. Same. Stalled out in 2 seconds. No codes showing.
The codes point to a low system voltage event plus CAN/data-link communication failures between the Machine ECM, Engine ECM, and display. This matches the “starts → runs rough → dies quickly” symptom far better than a pure fuel delivery problem (which you have already largely ruled out). 590-9 — Engine Control Module : Abnormal Update Rate (FMI-9). The Machine ECM is not receiving expected messages from the Engine ECM on the data link (CAN/J1939). Classic communication failure. • 2448-9 — Graphical Display Module : Abnormal Update Rate. Same type of data-link failure involving the monitor/display. These two “-9” codes appearing together almost always indicate a problem on the shared CAN/data-link network (wiring, connectors, power/ground to one of the modules, or terminating resistors) rather than the crank/cam sensors you already replaced.
I dunno about anyone else but to me that screams look at the fuel supply side all the way from the tank. Better still try running the engine from a jerry can or similar and bypass the entire system.
Jerry can would be good to rule out the tank, as I posted in^^^#31. Testing is cheaper than buying parts. Simon C
I had a 308E2 CR with the same type issue. $11K later to CAT and a new engine ECM ran like a top and back to work to pay for the repair.
I think f311fr1 is a droid, his answer supports my conclusion and f311fr1 sounds like a droids name R2D2 C3P0 etc
Unfortunately you are wrong. He's been around here a lot longer than you. All you have to do is check his posting history.
How can I be wrong? computers are never wrong?
All your alleged investigative capabilities and you can't check on someone's previous contributions before dismissing their input.?
It’s ok you can bully me around all you want
76 years old, 40 years as a fluid fower specialist for Motion Industries, retired at 65 in 2015, started my construction company May 2016, closed end of 2025. sold all my paid for equipment at Ritche Brothers auction. 4 Cat 308E2 CR, 1 Cat 305.5E2 CR, 1 Cat 313, 1 Cat D4K2, 1 Cat D6R, 1 Cat 289D3, 1 Cat 299D3, 1 Cat TL1060, 1 Mack Granit tri axle dump, 1 International 4300S/A dump, ECT. F311 references a Formula performance boat 31FT oal with two BBC engines. Last set were 540 CU IN with superchargers. 650HP a side and 90 MPH. what a rush down lake Cumberland in KY.
Is the engine ecm this one
I ran a jerry can today. Same issues
What would you recommend my next step. Do far i visually check all wiring and unhooked and checked all connections to and from the computers. Would you think that a new code would appear during a restart and fail if this was an issue. My next part I'm thinking of changing is engine computer.
This smells somewhat troublesome .... It might be wise not to get all exited on these forums Chris
I glossed over the CAN codes as a side effect of the low voltage codes. Transient communication errors go hand in hand with low voltage conditions. Looking over the info you posted, the codes haven't returned AND you are communicating with ET over that data bus. I assumed the battery was charged. It's not impossible for undervolting the electronics to cause issues internally, but it's unlikely. Yes, that picture is the engine ECU. If you are dead set on swapping out the ECU, I have good news for you; it's a straightforward swap on a used ECU. If it resolves the issue, so long as your ECU has fewer hours than the MCU, then it's just a matter of exchanging injector trim and probably not a bad idea to do a regeneration. I've seen ECU's fail in all kinds of weird ways that don't always give good evidence with diagnostic codes that they are the problem. I think there are some open questions before going that route. Simon C had a good point in reply #49 Putting a multimeter on that relay and making sure it's not dropping voltage when the stall occurs would be a good and quick check!
There is a 50 foot Hustler Monster at The used boat dealer in Lake of the Woods Il for stupid cheap
Not particularly crazy about the yellow paint job but that is a beautiful boat and the engine refresh pays for that purchase price
I was speaking with a cat tech thr other day. He said its the egr valve because it indicates a bad reading on the ET screen shot I post. He said the egr is stuck open and dumping exhaust into to intake and stopping ignition if the fuel. So I unbolted the egr and block the exhaust manifold and it started and ran as it should. Would be nice to do an egr delete at this point.
Interesting! Very cool find thats for the update!
Interesting indeed! Thank you for posting an update with the fix! This will likely save others many hours of diagnostic time.
Sorry I was wrong, but glad you’re up and running and it was a relatively easy fix
That’s one to file away in the memory banks.
Sounds like you’ve already done that Thanks for posting your findings. Just out of curiosity, so you removed elbow #14 and capped off the open port on the cylinder head?…
Glad you're running and thanks for passing on this info. I'll be passing it on to my son for possible future consideration on his same machine.