Hi Experts, Could I get an opinion on this picture? On this 9JS00308 Cat 320 BL 138 FWHP, the Swing Gear and Bearing seems to "catch" and the structure will not swing after working in some positions, especially after working at a diagonal to the tracks and shaking the machine can get it to swing again. I searched the forums and saw helpful posts, @John C. had a good video on one machine. The attached picture is an inspection plate to the swing gear. The manual states to "Add 5P-0960 Multipurpose Grease to the swing gear and bearing after it has been installed. Refer to the "Operation & Maintenance Manual" for lubricating the swing gear and bearing at specific service intervals." I was not able to locate the section specified above. A Cat maintenance video said several gallons of swing gear grease should be in that well. I may be mistaken. So, what can you see with the picture? What grease and quantity should be in that well?
Grease looks fine at what is a normal level. Is there oil in the swing gear box?
This should be the swing gear dipstick level which is just below Full and above Add
If optioned, there is a fine swing rocker switch. If you activate that, does the swing still jam? Mind you, that switch will disable the swing brake, and, if working on a slope, the house will not stop when turning.
Pull the swing gear and check the planetary, that is if you know the brake is releasing.
That grease looks pretty emulsified. Don't discount the possibility that you may have ice in there.
You might get a flashlite and have someone slowly swing the machine while you watch for teeth damage. If the stop point is in the same spot likely the swing gear. Bob
Good day If it locks once every 360 most probably indicates damage (Broken slew ring tooth) if less come back to the transmission. Suggest you swing the locking position and pull the swing box. Kind regards Uffex
The temperature warmed up a bit today at least about freezing so I was able to run the equipment. First I installed a zerk that was apparently missing, but grease only escaped from just below it even with a poorly fitting plug (another zerk wouldn't fit and I didn't find a proper threaded plug). So, I squirted half a tube of lithium / 5% moly grease through the port the inspection plate covers. Running for a while and it didn't seem to lock up and I didn't get a chance to see about the fine swing. So maybe it's just lack of grease. Ice would have also been a possibility but it would do it in warmer weather too. Obviously, I haven't been greasing that part. And I don't know about the zerk ports, maybe add a good threaded plug on the underside one so that I can actually shoot grease through the new zerk. See attached. Thanks!!
Your "open" is supposed to be a 90° fitting, to which a steel line is attached. That steel line goes CW around the unit to exactly 180°, and attaches to a 90° fitting threaded into the unit. Your "zerk" arrow greases the back side via steel piping. Below your "zerk" is another. That is for greasing the front side.
That's very good to know and very generous of you to post that. All metric fittings too, I presume.
It's finally warming up enough to take a look at this swing gear. I took a picture of what I was getting out of the well that's accessed from the small port under the house. I got maybe 2 gallons of tan colored goop with big chunks of ice. That's what the picture is trying to show. The big chunks of ice has mostly been removed and since it was in the 40s today I was able to mop up the water that was remaining in there. Thanks for the diagram @heymccall . Forgive me cuz I'm kind of ignorant and maybe I'm ready for the dang fool comments but, I see what I call the zerk isn't made to take grease into the port, there's no opening there to shoot grease at the ring, but it looks like the grease line is designed to go around to the AA on the diagram. I can't locate any missing connection on that opposite side of BB. It seems my option is to keep the port open and pump as much grease as I can along the gear ring as I swing the machine around. Is that maybe the best option or keep trying to locate the port for where the grease is supposed to flow into the ring. So just to clarify, it looks like the problem with it swinging was ice chunks and somehow water getting into that well and creating the breakdown of the grease and making ice cubes.
As heymccall says, that zerk in the square block is ( or was) a fitting to group service points together for ease of maintenance, it would have originally had a steel pipe connected and running round to the other side to remotely grease that side of the slew bearing. Most machines have 2 or 3 grease points to the slew bearing, you don't want to over grease those ones, just 1 or 2 shots on each zerk and not every day like the ones on the bucket linkage etc. If it's coming out past the rubber seal you can see just underneath it's too much. The inspection port into what you call the well, if you've successfully drained this by removing the plug underneath you have done a great job. This can be re filled using a bulk bucket of grease and some kind of scoop or spoon. If you've got grease cartridges, use the base of the grease gun without the pump screwed on- load the cartridge in keeping the plunger locked out, jam it in the port so it's wedged somehow, then release the plunger and it'll dump the tube in there pretty quick. Dump a few tubes in, then rotate a few degrees, keep dumping them in until you fill the whole area. Your machine manual should tell you the depth of grease you need, usually about 3/8" to 1/2" I guess. You'll need a box or two of cartridges if you do it that way. You may want to check that the rubber seal around the rotary union is not torn, if water is getting in to the slew gear. Often the area around the rotary and inspection port gets chocked up with dirt and rain water pools up on top, seeps past the rotary rubber seal.
Also clean out the leaves, twigs, and crap out around the swing motor and park the machine with the boom side down a bit so the rain/snow water can run out instead of finding it's way in the slew bath. Good thing you waited for some warmer weather to look into it, big ice chunks can do some serious damage. Good job!
As noted above, the grease for the swing gear and the grease for the bearing are two different things. The bearing is lubricated by the external grease fittings. The swing gear is lubricated by the grease in the pan - fill once and that should be it, unless you have a problem like this. You need to fix where the water is getting in. There's a good chance that the rubber boot around the swivel has failed.
It's an old machine so the water probably got in there over a period of time measured in years. Have you checked the free play in the swing bearing?
@John C. I'll need to look in the manual to see how to check the free play in the bearing. Also, there's an apparent drain plug, but this stuff is not gonna come out that way as it's too thick. Barehanded scoop removal is what I have done so far with only one complete 360⁰ turn, stopping maybe every 15⁰ to scoop. There's a heavy skid plate on the underside of the swivel. There's still a lot of contaminated, emulsified water and grease. Is filling with gear oil, swinging that around, draining and then 5% moly grease a way to go? Or just circle around one more time, trying to mop up the mess, then place about two gallons of grease in the top inspection "port"? Mornings are still cold, so it's a late eve project, not hard, but I don't want to do it again. Here's a video. A grease line was probably deleted early on, or wasn't installed with this machine as it spends most of it's time in brush and slash. When I got the machine there were no grease fittings on that square port.
If you make a good job of cleaning out the old grease by hand that should do fine. It may take a couple of circutis. As CMark mentioned, while youhave the tub empty of grease that's the right time to make sure that the seal is in good condition. Definitely not moly grease for a swing tub application. A regular lithium-based EP2 grease will be fine. Do you have any way of warming the grease before you put it in through the hole.? That way it would spread & level in the tub far easier/faster. You will still have to dump grease in the hole, swing a few degrees, dump more grease, etc, etc. Repeat as required until you have gone a full 360. I wouldn't try to fill it up all at once. It might be better left a bit llow and then add grease a bit at a time in any low spots until the level is correct. When the level is right the swing pinion will be just touching the surface of the grease and will make a series of "swirls" in it that somewhat resemble what you would see when whipping cream with a food processor. Regarding your video. it was hard to see but there were a couple of areas in the swing bearing that looked like they could be plugs where a grease connection once was. Unfortunately the video didn't get close enough or pause long enough to see what they were. Below is an image from your video. What are in the two circles.? Below is what the steel grease lines should look like. As they are missing on your machine the best you can do is look for some plugs on your machine where the elbow fitting (circled) would have been screwed into the swing bearing.
Actually no. The 5K9243 elbow is brass. It has a 1/8" male NPTF 27 TPI thread on the end that screws into the swing bearing and a 7/16" SAE J512 24 TPI female 45-deg inverted flare on the end where the grease line fitting connects. Attached both parts of the Swing bearing & grease line parts list. It might help you to make more sense of it all.
The video link below shows how to check the play in the swing bearing. There are a plate underneath the carbody in the cavity where you find the swivel. You machine may have a swivel guard which is just two big plates that bolt into the circle hole below the swivel. You can remove that plate and grease and water will drain. If you put the boom in the middle of the track frame when the idlers are in front, the drain hole will be in the back. It takes a big pan to catch the junk that falls out and makes a mess but is faster and easier than digging the junk out by hand. I liked to park the machine on a slope so that drain is on the down hill side. If you have help one can slowly turn the house while you hold some kind of scraper in the hole to push the grease to the drain. In all truth that usually only gets cleaned when someone changes the swing bearing or has to pull the swing machinery to replace the pinion seal.
@John C. That video is exactly what I need. I had no luck with the manual. The picture here is the swivel plate on this one. Seems beefy and unfortunately, I'm not parked in a great place to remove it. Do you have a suggestion for checking the swivel seal? It seems like you are correct when you wrote that as an older machine, it may have just accumulated water over time.
@Nige Here are pictures showing the parts you asked about. One is a grease fitting. The other is a m8x1.25 bolt that seems like it's just threaded into the circle, and probing it shows it has a bottom and no access to the gear. So, I'm not seeing a way to get grease into the well other than through the top which is fine. Getting as much moisture out should help.
The seal you need to look at is on the top section of the swivel. Near the swing box.
That's it Brian, those M8 holes were the bolts & clips holding the steel remote greaser pipe. Go further round past the M8 hole and next one should be the grease entry to the bearing. The bearing greasers have no connection to the gear pan grease, that has to go in the top plate access that you've been cleaning through. If you take belly plates off, remove plug and park on slight slope as John C mentioned, it may drain a bit more water. Swivel seal: the one that lets water in is a rubber gaiter/boot sealing piece that sits over the rotary swivel. This is the union that the tracking hydraulic hoses go to near the base of the boom, the oil then goes through the rotary swivel down to the tracks. It's what you see if you remove the belly plates to get access to the drain plug. To check this rubber boot, carefully clean the sticks and mud away from the top of the swivel, don't shove a screwdriver in there or it definitely will be holed You should see a rubber circle clamped down under a metal ring and clamped to the rotary swivel with a large jubilee clip or similar. The other seal that was mentioned above in regards to why someone would clear the grease pan out (pinion seal), would be if hydraulic oil was leaking through. This is not to do with water ingress, it's the rubber boot you need to check out for that.
Cmark has it.
As John Shipp pointed out above, they are the "missing links" to your open grease connection at the front of the machine. In the image below the red circle is where the elbow 1 should be - but you have a grease fitting installed. The blue circle is the bolt 16, which you have, and the clip 17 - which you don't because the tube 2 is missing. There should be another identical bolt further round towards the front of the machine because the grease tube is supported by 2 bolts/clips. I've tried to stich the parts manual illustrations together to give you an idea of what is where.
Just a guess from your pictures; I don't think the swing motor/planetary seal is leaking. The pictures look more like water is getting in around the seal that is at the base of the swing gear housing and frame. Stuff that builds up in that area has the tendency to plug the drain holes in the frame and allows the water to puddle in there and get into the grease bath of drive and ring gear. If the seal at the bottom of the swing gear output was leaking then the stuff in the bath would be oil contaminated (not ice and water) and has the tendency to slober out of the outside of slew bearing. Just what I think FWIW.
Thanks! For grease, I purchased a 5 gallon pail of Chevron EP nlgi grade 1. No moly in this. Grade 1 so it's somewhat soft. Ep, extreme pressure. Is this grease a decent choice? $175 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...IQFnoECDcQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3C-CBBE4KmHBCqzvvjs6AY
Sounds good, any clean grease is better than water and ice!
It's about time for the post mortem... I'm glad I didn't bid that job. It took me awhile. I really appreciate all the help. Thanks everyone! @Cmark said to not discount ice in there. It wasn't obvious until the warmer weather, but there was a lot of ice. Now I have a better understanding of the grease requirements. The swing shouldn't require additional grease, but it's something to check. @John C. I checked the play in the swing bearing...it had only a millimeter. I must have done it wrong. Putting a lot of down pressure on the swivel head is what I couldn't do. The head likes to swivel off to the side, if you know what I mean. Picture shows the swirl marks I was told is a good level. About three gallons of EP NLGI 1 is what I used. Thanks @Nige Other pic shows some of the same slobber from the well with water oozing out after the fill-up.
All you need now is 2 elbows, 2 clips, & a steel line and you can put your swing bearing greasing back to being “factory original”.
Considering how much time this machine spends in "slash" it might have been factory deleted? I just wonder, that's all. It's a 320B FM LL. Good to have the knowledge, thanks!!
"factory deleted"? Now that I think about it, there was no grease fitting on the "backside" bearing and the front "block" had a broken grease fitting on the bottom and it was open at the top...it could have had a grease line. It's just a curiosity. Thanks!
I doubt it. The same grease line is called out on everything. I would guess what you have is a "temporary field fix" by a previous owner when the steel line got damaged somehow. The benefit of having the line is that the swing bearing can be greased entirely from the front of the machine, which is what the factory intended when they built it. Lubrication instructions from your O&M Manual. The swing bearings are under the base of the boom. Apply lubricant through the fittings until the lubricant overflows the bearing seals.
The picture helps my understanding. The block could use some attention as the way it is, it's not clear why that block is there. But if there's a steel line running from it going to the swing bearing it makes sense. The way it is, it looks like that grease fitting is supposed to be greasing the swing gear and as we've found out that's not the case where the swing gear has a quantity of grease that should be good through its service life. I have spent more than a few minutes trying to pump grease into that block that goes nowhere at this time. One option is to take a bandsaw and cut the block off because I don't mind crawling under the machine to grease the back side of that swing bearing.
In the photo you can see the elbow underneath the block and the steel tube heading off the the left. The lower arrow shows the 2nd grease fitting to lubricate the swing bearing. This discussion leads me to the conclusion that you do not have the O&M Manual. specific to the 320B Forest Machine You really should get one, it can be downloaded from the Cat Publications web site in pdf format in less than 5 minutes for $49 and contains loads of useful information.
I purchased a 320B FM LL excavator manual about a year ago. Maybe I got a bootleg version because under o&m there's not a lot of helpful information. Please see the directory tree below: It's not so easy to browse. Each page has its own PDF. Maybe I could see about stitching all these PDFs together. Thanks!
Here's the unit View attachment 257234
That's a piece of bootleg generic sh1te and based on the file structure in your image it is not specific at all to your machine....... In a word you've been had. I would strongly suggest you get a proper (OEM) manual, especially considering it's $49.
Did you purchase that machine out of Canada? Looks like an eighteen inch cab riser, a backhoe boom and a sleeve installed on a backhoe stick to mount the processor to. The track frames have the forestry roller guards but in the photo the carbody does not appear to be high and wide. I believe that cab is what was required in Canada in the time frame that model was being produced. I don't believe that it was rated as being a roll over structure in those days. The boom does not have the high lift option for the cylinder bosses mounted under the boom. Those machine were not real popular in the US. There also might be some parts differences. Maybe Nige can look it up if you talk nice and offer up a serial number.
He already did. Confirmed as a specific "320B FM LL Excavator". I assume FM stands for Forest Machine.
It is a forest machine but it is not a log loader as it is currently configured. Configuration currently is generally known as a road builder. The exception to that is the carbody does not look to be high and wide. The processor and attaching nose piece is a custom add on not done by the factory. That's why I say the OP needs to be cautious when trying to obtain service materials and parts for the machine.
I sure appreciate all the help. I'm back with my hat in hand as there's still a problem with the swing, but let me talk about the machine. It came out of a Chilliwack RB auction and came to Alaska on the RORO transport. Tote almost denied it as it has cleats welded on the grousers but they were warn enough to say it wouldn't damage the deck. I personally like the machine and the frame being beefier than some 320s is a plus. There's good undercarriage protection. It certainly has had a few issues. One issue that longtime HEF posters may recall is it wasn't building hydraulic pressure. That was just a piece of metal that was keeping the relief valve open. I have put a new rebuilt computer for the head. New engine speed controller and other minor stuff has been required. I would like to get some input someday to see if a mulcher stick could swap out from the Waratah head and back. The machine could be more versatile. So, anyway...I thought the swing issue was over and done but not so. The symptom now is the house seems to be too tight over the swing bearing. @John C. I checked the bearing play again and there is none, not really any, maybe 1mm Here's a picture showing the boom over the idlers and I measured from the frame to the house while pressing down on a tree and then while suspending the tree. It's about the same, which is surprising. I thought I didn't have much to loose, so I lubed the swing bearing through the two grease fittings a half dozen times with about 10 pumps each time using 5% moly. Temps in the high 40s which makes this a warm day.
The Waratah people may be the ones responsible for some customization. It seems they start with a carrier, in this case a log loader. They installed a computer for the head and use it to stroke the two main pumps.
Is there a "swing brake"? Cat 320 B FM LL Forest Machine Actual measured by Tote as 10'11" x 12'6"x27'. 9js is manufactured in Japan The 9js comes standard with a variable flow hydraulic system with a power and work mode selector, pilot activated control, horsepower summation control, large lifting capacity, large cross section designed for the boom and stick, heavy duty frame, inline mounted pumps, a modified x-shaped car body, and increased pressure in the travel circuit.
Waratah doesn't usually do the installs. They have independent companies or the selling machine dealer do it. They supply a set of directions with the unit. I've removed heads from machines and swapped them to other machines. A log loader has a completely different boom and stick with a heel rack installed. The other possibility with it being a Canada machine is that it was using a butt-n-top grapple before the processor was installed.
In the time that those models were built, Cat and all the rest of the manufacturers were having someone else do the build ups for logging machines. It started with Young and Pierce Pacific doing all the build ups and then other companies like Jewell, PSM and even HPF entered into the business. The excavator came into the US without an implement front and was sent to the jobber to be turned into a log loader. The jobber, Young and Pierce mostly in those days, separated the carbody from the house, modified the carbody and added things like catwalks, log guards, cab risers and tilting mechanisms to the now raised cabs, installed hose and wiring extensions for the now much higher cab's controls and many times added more weight to the counterweights. The carbodies were cut from the track frames and a new center section was added the gave much more clearance through the center of the machine and spread the frames out wider. Jewell Manufacturing did the same type of business to Kobelco excavators and earlier Mitsubishi or MDI excavators. Give NC Machinery a call and ask them to look up your serial number like you are looking for parts. Ask for things like boom and stick cylinder packings, check on the number of links in each track. Maybe see if they can identify the boom and stick part numbers and provide you with a parts picture of them.
@heymccall mentioned a fine swing rocker switch which controls swing. Maybe I need to give that a try!
There is a swing brake. I don't have information on it from here. Someone should be along to explain its function.
Thanks @John C. ! I'm looking through old threads about swing issues and am still looking. This unit may not have such a switch? This panel pictured below was mentioned on one thread, but this machine has only placeholders in the panel. I ran the machine a while ago and swing functions seemed just right. I'll have to run it more to see how intermittent the issue is.
It ran for three hours with no issues with the swing. But then the swing started acting up. Here's a minute long video
Have you changed the oil in the swing gearbox recently.? If so what did the oil look like.?
@Nige , no I haven't, that gives me a direction, thanks. It's gotten a lot worse, real quick. Here's what the dipstick looked like:
Without being there on the spot, it sounds like perhaps your swing brake is coming on. Can you make the problem stop by working other functions at the same time?
Another beautiful day here, cold evening temps still so walking on top of three feet of snow is still possible in the morning. Sunny afternoon. Swinging trees around this morning was fun and relaxing, until the swing started locking up. Most of the time, the swing is smooth and even. Here's two random things: A new throttle control was installed Before the locking episodes. Could the controller be related? A piece of a valve seat was locking open the main relief valve. Could there be debris in the swing pump? Does it seem like a swing brake issue? Changing work modes while the issue is occurring, seems to make a difference, but it's hard to say. Once it starts locking up, it seems to just lock and release no matter the setting. @Cmark I can select different work modes but I am not sure if it makes a difference. Pressing one mode made it seem to start. Here's a two minute video
Using a test light or similar, check if you have power to solenoid #4 when you are working the machine. Alternatively, unplug the coil and give it a temporary connection 24v. If that makes the fault go away, don't make it a permanent fix. I'm not sure if the normal supply is current-limited or not and you may burn the coil up.
There's power to the solenoid...test light comes on when "braking"... should I have a longer test. I only did it while parked...
Slowing down of the swing during normal operation is done hydraulically. Think of the swing brake as more of a parking brake. Movement of the joysticks should signal power to the solenoid to release the brake. From memory, the brake should continue to stay off for a couple of seconds after the joysticks are released.