greatings, Its a 210hp non turboed version in an international s2500 dumper truck, loaded it has a severely hard time on anything resembling a slope. I dont need to win any road race championships but it would be skookum to not have folks feeling the need to pass on the shoulder everyday, or feel at least mildly confident I could pull the tag trailer and excavator at close to hwy speeds, it does ok on back roads, but that simply isnt always an option Anyway, I can find the stock injector numbers, but not the higher hp versions (well I can find them but not sure exactly what I need to be looking for) OR would the better option to be simply turn up the pump, it already spews some tinted smoke, not black mind, but you can tell its working hard
210 with no turbo is about it. Turn the pump up and you will just make black smoke. (Wasted fuel).
Those engines were not real strong when new and yours is not any stronger with 30+ years of age on it. Make money with it while you develop a plan to replace it with something about 20 years newer.
Sorry but there's no easy solutions here. A bunch more fuel with no turbo for more air isn't going to do you any good. A turbo really doesn't help much either- and the pistons are different turbo to non turbo. (i've had both turbo and non turbo). There's marine versions that churn out some serious hp, but you don't have a constant source of cold water, and you'll just burn down the motor- they aren't that stout. Sell the truck to someone who likes to drive slower than you do. P.S. I repowered two 3208 cranes to 8.3 cummins, and would do it again in a heartbeat. Smaller displacement, but much better torque. The cranes have a much higher value than a small dump truck- so I could justify the expense and time to do it. I don't think that it would be worth it for a small dump. Its time consuming, and expensive, the cost would be more than the truck is worth.
welp, thanks all Kinda what i was thinkin, without a turbo its just dickered, Its not a small dump truck is the problem, its a full 12yd truck... the replacement motor is an option, but right now its spinning 2700 to do 55mph, finding an engine that works with my gearing could be an issue, I dont know enough about detroits to know which to look for, the 8.3 cummins is a good idear but will it run at 2700rpm and how expensive is it going to be to swap all this over... I am sitting on a dt466 with a bad head gasket that Im thinking of stuffing in the big truck, but it would involve cutting the fire wall and more stuff i just dont have time for. not to mention that whole gearing issue for now, I guess its find a detriot or cummins that will work or run it until I can afford something better
The turbo really doesn't help. I've had both N/A and turbo versions and couldn't tell much difference torque wise. The horsepower rating was a little more, but torque is what moves the load. I don't think you'll find a engine swap very economical, even if you don't count your time to do it. You would be better off spending the $6-7,000 trading trucks.
For International truck application it appears the 3208 was never offered with a turbo. That doesn't mean to say one could not be installed. Let's face it, marine propulsion versions of the 3208 were available rated from 260 up to 450 BHP (but not for long and I certainly wouldn't want to pay the fuel bill) and had turbos on them that appeared to be the size of a large bucket...... see below. If you would like to pursue the option of installing a turbo take a look at your current installation, and estimate whether or not a turbo would fit in that space shown in the above photo when you consider all the extra piping, etc. Post your Serial Number and Arrangement Number and I'll have a bit of a dig around.
The 8.3 Cummins does not pull much over 2000-2100 RPM. The turbo 3208 was only 250 HP in a truck. I don't even know why they needed a turbo to get 250 HP out of 10.4 liters, these dinosaurs were at the end of their run by the time the turbo ones came anyway, I think. Probably for emissions reasons.
factory turbo wont fit without adding the doghouse to the cab, as is it has a flat firewall, samesies for the dt466 50hp with a turbo will likely help, but i dont think its worth the effort for just 250hp, there be a lot of hills around here, Im thinking an 8v71 might be the way to go, 300-375hp similar sized engine, high revving, though noisy. HP gets the motor spinning faster, Torque is how much it can spin, they are related to some extent without HP there would be no torque, a motor with massive HP and no torque can spin up real fast, but not pull much, a motor with massive torque and no HP can move a mountain at an idle, but takes a week to gain any speed. where I sit now, I have neither, so I cant move much, and it takes a week to get up to 55
Bonus with an engine swap would be jake brakes, not having them really really sucks
The turbos did not add horsepower in those engines. They were installed to clean up the smoke.
As far as I know, an 8V71 is also a 2100 RPM engine and has considerably more torque than a 3208. It would be totally impractical to swap, everything would be against you, but if you are up for the challenge....
I have a non-turbo 3208 in a Ford. Works okay for a 7yd dump. I’d read the turbo’d 3208’s had extra compression ring on piston and I think skirt was different so, not as easy as just adding the turbo (‘cause I had been thinking along same lines). Darryl
That's what I was thinkin Darryl.. diff pistons, injectors & crank if I remember correctly.. basically a diff. engine.
Get a bigger dump truck.
^^^ Pretty much. A 6v-71T Detroit might be a good fit in the op's truck but that is still a 2100 RPM engine, dunno what he has for a transmission(s) but changing from direct to overdrive might just get him close. 6V-71 is a pretty short engine.
6V71 only 238 HP, not much more than what is in there now and a whole lot more work than just leaving it alone. He mentioned an 8V71 but like I said, I think it impractical.
You missed the "T" above.
I see that now, I wonder where the turbocharger might be mounted and if it would fit under the hood? I suppose turbo location could be anywhere depending on what the engine came from. How much bigger would a 6V92 be, also. But I still think it might be a silly idea.
The turbo would be top mounted on the blower. I did replace a 3208 with a 6V-92T many years back, used a lot of stock parts from junkyard trucks that were 6V-71 powered, It was an easy peasy swap. The truck was heavy spec Ford Louisville mixer chassis with a 5x4 trans, I used a 9513 to replace the main, not sure about the rear gears but it would run 64MPH at 2100.
I was thinking this was a smaller truck but I see now the S2500 could have had a 14 liter Cat or Cummins so I guess a 6v swap would not be so crazy after all.
the trucks came with a plethora of engines over the years, cab design hasnt changed much, different hood, but the base is pretty much the same Difference is that the longer motors had a short dog house on the fire wall to accommodate the longer engines, while I have a donor truck with a 285hp dt466 complete, its a lot more work than I care for, Im an owner operator operation, i do literally everything from oil changes to bidding jobs... except taxes, the war Dept takes care of all of that, taking a week or 2 off to swap an engine and modify the firewall isnt something I can afford the time to do, and I certainly dont want to pay for it to be done Right now it has the road rager 13sp (the older version with one selector lever) while i rarely use low range its geared low enough that it will pull just fine until you get to the top gears, then it just runs out of grunt, 35-45 mph is ok loaded heavy, but getting up to 55 on anything that isnt down hill or flat simply isnt going to happen, 60mph is just wishful thinking Thinkin my best option is find a cheap turbo that will fit, even a small amount of boost increases power, or just run it until I can afford a better truck and flip on to some one else that is just starting out, while it has its issues its a solid running and driving truck, just painfully slow
Just a couple of tips. First, there is no such thing as a cheap turbo. More power always has a cost and in this case as stated in previous posts a turbo on that model of engine requires all different internals. The second tip is that all business endeavors require a minimum amount of energy and cost in order to be profitable. Sometimes you can substitute energy for cost long enough to jump the hurdle to profitability. Many times you end up running out of energy before the hurdle is cleared and go broke or start having health issues. You have a truck that is not built for what you want to accomplish. The hurdle is the cost of a different truck that will accomplish your goal.
I agree with what John said, that is why I enjoy this site, proper emphasis on profitability. My service truck is an old Ford with a 351 engine, nothing wrong with it but I would love to swap in an old Cummins whenever it pukes but the numbers just will never pencil out. That being said, the 3208/1160 was available with more than 210 HP in a NA configuration. Maybe somebody with Cat experience can tell if yours is suitable for more power as-is. But the uphill speed difference will only be a few percent.
Biggest N/a I had was at 230 hp. The turbo was only 250, and you really couldn't tell the difference.
well as I said the best option is to get a different truck. That said there are cheap turboes out there if you know where to look (i.e not at the dealer) Plenty of scrap yards around where a used turbo can be had for cheap, but honestly this is likely not going to happen as plumbing it in is to time consuming. (but oh dont get used they cant be rebuilt... yes they can and for cheap as well) As for turboes not making power, 50hp is more then 210 anyway you look at it about 25% more to be kinda accurate, as for the internals needing to be different that I cant tell ya, but if your not going for insane psi then factory internals will hold up just fine, the 3208 came in 6 or 7 different options, mostly different heads/injectors and Natural or turbo, I imagine that the super high hp versions had different pistons and heads as to accommodate the different compression ratios needed. Really though a turbo is what really shines on hills and long climbs, more fuel=need more air, turbo supplies that air, more fuel you push the harder a turbo will spin, giving the motor the ability to hold speed longer, which really is the main goal here Anyway I digress, for just hauling dirt and rock it does ok, put a tag trailer and a 120 excavator behind it and things get interesting. For now its what I have, its paid for itself in 4 months, next equipment move the trailer is paid for, so its not a huge issue, I own everything outright, no loans on anything, so even if it sits Im not hurting, maybe not eating, but I wont go backwards. And really this trucks sole purpose was to move machines safely, and not rely on someone else, and its doing that and more, in fact the guy I used to hire to move my machines has hired me several times just to move dirt, so I guess that is a win
A "cheap turbo that will fit" will likely burn your engine down without installing the entire package. this aint throwing a Banks turbo on the wife's 6.2 powered suburban.
been reading this with some interest i`ll post some pics later of what you need to fit a turbo to a 3208 i have all the pieces needed to do it as far as the external stuff. however if your engine has the inline injector pump none of these will fit
An "in-line" 3208 pump?? no such animal..?? The 3208 inj. pump is a "V".. just like a small V-8 engine..
O but yes there are. Bob
Not arguing, but I'm very interested.. I guess I'll floogle it.. STILL not seeing it.. an "INLINE" 3208 injection pump?? not in my 30 + year history of doing them..
Look under early 4.5" bore v-8 engines or 1160 truck engines and you will learn something grasshopper. Bob
10-4.. gotcha
Another D-6 thread. Give it up-3208- cats gutless wonder.
I was always surprised at how poor the pulling was on my two 3208's. I had turbo- non turbo- and everything from old used engines to a brand new reman, and they were all pretty much the same. They'll really rev, but they don't make much power. Its a 10 liter motor, and when I switched to 8.3 cummins, I was concerned about going down to a 8.3liter motor. But they are night and day difference. Neither crane is a speed demon, but they are both much better than they were. And the cat is nothing like a M11 which is 10.8 liter, vs the 3208 at 10.6. I was looking at a used truck crane's specs the other day- it had a M11 400 plus in it. That's 400 hp with 1450 ft.lbs of torque in a 120,000lbs machine. Granted a N-14 would be better for that kind of weight, but that's a pretty good torque number for a small diesel. What's that old saying " six in a row makes it go". On the original subject of adding the turbo: The factory ones just have different exhaust manifolds that wrap up around the rear of the block to the top v of the engine. Then the turbo mounts up there in the valley of the V. If I remember right there's a different intake manifold for the turbo vs N/A. Shouldn't be hard to find a 3208T around to steal one off of, although they aren't as common as they used to be. That doesn't change any of the internals, but it sounds like you aren't too concerned about that. As far as the "25%" gain in power your wishing for by adding a turbo, well - good luck with that one......
All the 1100 series and 3208 engines I've worked on had two ring pistons. Turbo will increase firing pressure and basically just send a big helping of it into the crankcase. I did one engine with IPD made pistons that had three rings. Start up in cold weather seemed easier but it still didn't make a lot of horsepower.
That could be an interesting way to go.. nudge nudge wink wink has the standard v pump too Dont quote me, but from pics Ive seen the intake is the same, the turbo version has a cast piece that bolts in place, replacing the current part that connects direct to the air cleaner ok having sat down and done the math, it would be a gain of 19.4% ish still better then not having it, and certainly better then a poke in the eye. The thing already gets warm on long hills, like any motor will, just have to watch your revs and keep it in a gear that can gain speed without mashing the throttle wide open and it will be fine, Also there are several issues with swapping literally any other diesel engine in, 1, RPM range 2, will it fit 3, can I afford the swap 4, finding one that runs, and fits 8.3 cummins sounds like a good motor, and I like cummins, but any around are going to be far more expensive then they are really worth 10-20k any 6v detroit is a pipe dream around here, and not gaining anything anyway 8v detroits are cheap, but probably wont fit esp 8v92s everything else is wishfull thinking So back to plan a, turbo it or run it until I can afford something better
From: https://www.brighthubengineering.co...aterpillar-3208-the-throwaway-engine-to-keep/ “The 3208 emerged in 1973 as a turbocharged version but in 1981, major design mods such as stronger internal rotating parts, three-ring pistons, and beefed up oil and water pumps. The cooling system was also upgraded to include a bigger heat exchanger and seawater pump to cool the engine oil, exhaust manifolds, and turbochargers with the expansion tank and thermostats also being modified.” So, turbo’ing a n/a 3208 may work, there are design differences. (Can’t find the original article I’d read. It covered history and mods for not just marine apps) Following.... Darryl
We need somebody to look at the engine arrangement you have now vs. the arrangement of a factory turbo engine and see what the internal differences are.
(not a sales pitch) heres the set up . as far as i know this is the only way a turbo will fit, plus manifolds and connector pipes, block must be drilled for the oil supply into the bottom of the turbo, not positive but i think most are factory drilled whether turbo is used or not ,
get no arguement out out of me but i did run into one 1150 years ago never seen another
Not gaining from a 6V-92T ? Really? Check the available HP and torque ratings. Makes that "turboed" Cat look like a joke. And I've driven a few 6V-92T's, made NA 8V-71's look weak.
I'll have to go look at the shop, I have the remnants of one of each, I think there's a O-ring and a flange where the turbo sits for the return oil. I'm with rzucker on this , the 6v92's go up to north of 350hp, with not bad torque (for a detroit two stroke). I move a 95,000lbs crane with one. The advantage to this for a repower, is its a much shorter engine than a long inline six. So you don't have as much doghouse and radiator issues. I had actually looked at this for in my cranes, but I didn't have room for the width of the motor, in the crane compartments, the inline six actually fits better than a v. The detroit v-six, that is actually the closest in size to what you have is a 6v53, and its about a exact fit. But that's not a big hp upgrade.
worst case, I can manage drilling a hole or two, but the compressor has oil supplied as well, so a guy could just T into it if need be Think I may have meant 6v71, but got distracted by something shiny, the 6v71 only runs like 235hp or sumsuch a 6v92 would certainly do the trick, if a guy could find one
Actually this all sounds pretty interesting. Let us know how things work out.
6V-71 minus turbo is 238 HP with a lot more torque than the cat, turbo 6V-71 can hit 300+ HP.
There should be a lot of low mile high HP 6V92 turbo motors around from surplus fire trucks these days, this is the time they are really starting to get sold off/scrapped in big numbers. But you would need a transmission and clutch, or you could go with the automatic that they came with, HT750, direct drive 2100 RPM if that could work.
3208's even turbocharged were one shot engines, they got used up pack it up for a crate engine. Two ring pistons, weak heads, not much to deal with or overhaul except the injection pump mounting where would get loose over time and then wobble grind on the block mating surface, PITA. Cat used to have a metal epoxy kit to build that back up and take it back to close to normal. Not much better than many of the old gas engines for me. I would go the 6v92 if at all feasible otherwise run it til it shells, pop the radiator cap off and roll a different wagon under it.
I would say diesel vs gas might be an exaggeration, I drove some of the same trucks with 8.2 Detroit/427 gas or 3208/534 gas and the gas engines made you want to get out and push sometimes.
In the early 80's I ran a GMC 9500 with a 318 8V-71 hauling grain from central Washington state to the river ports in Pasco, James (the GMC) needed some transmission work so I broke out "protection power" for 3 days. It was a 1971 Chevy C65 with a 427 and a 5 and 2. Air brakes and a 5th wheel. Oh, a rubber band tandem too. Those were some slow trips using twice the fuel the 318 used. I think it was about 90 gallons of gas per day. But we got 'er done.
I drove a spare Ford service truck for a couple of weeks while first working at the Komatsu dealer. It had the 534 gas motor. It used a full fuel tank of gas driving from Kent to West Port. I've seen plenty of toilets use less fluid per flush than that truck used turning the starter over.
I would say diesel vs gas might be an exaggeration, I drove some of the same trucks with 8.2 Detroit/427 gas or 3208/534 gas and the gas engines made you want to get out and push sometimes. A little exaggeration yes but the 1160 and 3208 were not much better, lifespan was the big issue for what I saw, 8.2 Squeezer engines had their own issues. Would rather have a DT IHC or a J or L series Cummins. 6L71, 6V 71 or 92 would be a GREAT deal more engine than what he has now. Last service truck I ran out had a 370 2V Ford, gutless and gas hog but started every day, got what we needed done & had cab heat when some of the diesels would not at -5 F.
Thanks folks, unless a 6v71/92 falls in my lap, then Ill run er till she pukes or get a better truck... eventually... On the subject of guzzline engines, my little 5 ydr has a 362 ferd, gets 5.5 mpg loaded or empty and demands 92 oct, the hindernational gets roughly 8mpg so it is a step up from what I had before, just not like a real big one, though the hindernational can carry the little truck loaded, and still not be overweight