No travel, no boom, no swing issue: First and before the hydraulics locked out, I replaced the starter as the starter brushes and commutator fried themselves with all systems good at the time, electric system was charged to 24.4+- no issues anywhere, great batteries. So the starter went in just fine and the machine started with the first spin of the key, then I put the yellow hydraulic safety lock down at the left armrest and not much happened. The controls acted like they were ready to work, I could get some boom down and it seemed to want to boom up, but no... Putting the safety lock down makes the hydraulic lines shake as pressure seems to rise. Looking at the schematic, I see there is a hyd loc solenoid 111-4871 1999 caterpillar 320 B LL processor serial number 9Js00308
Additional Information is the schematic attached has a reference to 121-149 Solenoid - Hydraulic Lock and 143-1586 Hydraulic Lock Selonoid at location G (Location G is not readily apparent on the schematic) What and where should I look for the issue...On another thread, someone with a telehandler had a lockout hyd with the issue located near the starter. Is that a clue for this machine? There are no error codes on this 20k hour machine that has by-passed some electronics with a manual fuel/throttle cable.
A couple of clarifications. 111-4871 is a relay (one of eight) located in the circuit breaker panel group. 143-1586 is the main wiring harness. According to the schematic the solenoid for the implement lockout appears to be 121-1491. Directly below the table of the machine locations for all the components on Page 1 of the schematic is a diagram of the platform marked "Area G". Is the implement lockout solenoid #1 on that diagram maybe..?
This is where the pilot manifled is located (#63) on the pilot lines. The solenoid valve 121-1491 is #4 on the 2nd illustration. And before you ask the other three solenoid valves immediately adjacent to it are different part numbers and (I would imagine) are not interchangeable for the purpose of diagnostics unless someone knows different.
If solenoid will check out OK, see if you have power to it when you trying to swing, if not check the pressure switch.
The cab isn't lowered every day on this machine, so it's worthy of a picture It looks like I have located the 121-1491 solenoid in Area 'F' the back right of the machine, and as area H-1 in the schematic. 121-1491 would be the solenoid to the far left in the first picture and item #4 in your previous post. Does that sound right? Larger image below: Underside of cab, clearly visible after lifting the cab - Area 'G', didn't have anything other than connections harnesses. So it seems the other Hydraulic Lock Solenoid Relay is at the armrest, does that seem about right?
The micro switch is actuated by arm rest, which in turn should energize coil on relay, and relay should allow current to go through its contacts and energise coil on solenoid. But you can start by checking weather you have power at solenoid with test light. Another thing, sometimes equipment manufacturers have wires for controls connect not at battery + but at starters main power lug, you sure you connected all the wires at the starter?
If this machine has the flip up wand on the left side console that kind of prevents you from leaving the cab with control hot, then the micro switch is in that console behind the wand. I seem to remember it being behind a piece of plastic that you look at when you open the door.
Starter looks like all wires are connected. Flip up wand has contacts that are audible as the wand is lifted. The Solenoid 121-1491 Was under the cab, lifting the platform revealed it in the front left underneath. That Solenoid makes a chunk sound as the wand is lifted and the hoses vibrate at the same time. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tu1LK-FFLCI8dGWEWmg37S3vLUu0dAO3 This machine was pressure washed about two months ago. The plugs on the piping at 'F' are oily, as shown in the picture. I sprayed a lot of electric contact cleaner, but no connection yet. So, I need to have a question here...How do you check the solenoids with the small contacts in awkward places to access. Is it a idea to buy a plug from the dealer so that I could have a pigtail? There are adjustment screws on the solenoids at area G1 and F4.
On those sockets it should be possible to remove orange weather boot by pulling small tab on top of the socket, try not to jam anything in there in fear of spreading contacts. I would try and backprobe with taylors T pin, be careful not to touch pins to each other. You can try and Buy a pigtail from dealer, if they not gonna charge you arm and leg.
If that solenoid clicks, then you either got something stuck in it, or you for some reason lost your pilot pressure and it’s just coincided with your starter problems. Take the solenoid out and check the mechanical part of it.
Dealer is recommending at this point to check pressures at the pressure taps.
Sealer is right! Check if you even have a pilot pressure. On the CAT PD snap connector and 0-600 psi for pilot pressure and 0-5000 for main pressure gauges.
Here are the results from the pressure taps in the pump compartment, area F: (1) power shift pressure = 400psi (2) upper pump delivery pressure= 0psi (3) lower pump delivery pressure= 0psi Hydraulic oil was cold, the machine was at idle, the wand was 'down', system was closed. Umm?
What do you mean upper and lower pumps? Can you post a pictures of them?
If your pilot pump is not piggy backing on the ass of the main pumps but sits separately on the drive housing- then it seems you lost your main pumps drive.
Let the CAT guys correct me if I’m wrong but as far as I remember this should be close center negcon system, it means you should have stand by pressure on both pumps at idle, I don’t think that you can loose both unloaders at the same time. So I would think something happened to your pumps drive so only pilot pump getting cranked!
Have you ever seen a Cat 320 before? Bob
I’m sorry, I didn’t look where you are located, it’s just CAT put weird things in their machines in East Asia and Oz. But your in the States so you should have A8VO in it. I don’t really know CATs but I remember that 315B has negcon with powershit. BTW where are you in Evergreen state? I lived in Auburn 16 years
Here is a picture from the Service Information and pressure specifications. (1) power shift pressure was 400psi (2) upper pump delivery pressure was 0psi (3) lower pump delivery pressure was 0psi Attached is a pdf. Page 5 has the above picture. So, how does one lose a main pump drive by changing a starter?
Bluox you know CATs?
TVA: This Cat was made in JP, I imported it to the US from CA. I live in the town of Willow, Alaska.
Here is a picture from the Service Information and pressure specifications. View attachment 186310 (1) power shift pressure was 400psi (2) upper pump delivery pressure was 0psi (3) lower pump delivery pressure was 0psi Attached is a pdf. Page 5 has the above picture. View attachment 186310 So, how does one lose a main pump drive by changing a starter?
No Brian, I replied to Bluox, he is in Washington, can you look at the pumps name plate and tell me what comes after 107? If it’s still Rexroth’s code not CAT’s
It should be A8VO107xxxxx
This is what I see on the nameplate that is under the pump ports: Code p v g 0 7 5 b 1 UV RS FS P - 1 n n/fnn Serial number 99376003
The B series is open center with negative control. Load sensing as I recall was only when the throttle position was at 10. All other throttle positions had standard flows set by the computer through the power shift function. Most of the pumps I dealt with on those machines were Uchida Rex Roth. Same pumps used on Sumitomo machines with different regulators and electronics.
That’s not way I expected, but let me see what I can dig up
Coming up as Oilgear!
Something fishy here the name plate coming up as Oil gear, but it looks totally different then the Rexroth! Can you take a picture of your pump?
Code P-1NN/F is open center delta P pump with internal metering orifice, but it’s not what shows in the picture with pressure check instructions!
Brian, is this a name plate off the main double pumps or you have PTO pump under the mains?
John, I know that I don’t know everything but how negcon can be with open center? You probably meant open loop, as an NOT hydrostatic?
The nameplate picture you posted is probably off of PTO pump for running buncher or processor? Right?
John! You seem to know these machines, I’m more familiar with Kawasaki’s, if its a negcon, are they have a mechanical minimum ( stand by ) flow, or minimum flow can be shut down by pilot pressure? I.e. if safety arm up - no stand by flow/pressure?
That's it...you got it
Did I mention this machine has a manual throttle and some by-passed electronics? https://goo.gl/images/kex5xo
So I was right about PTO pump, bypassed electronics don’t matter if machine was working before. What I’m trying to figure out is what configuration that main pump, and are we still dealing with lock solenoid or different problem whatsoever. The problem is I’m not CAT guy and not very familiar with them.
That is Rexroth main pump, I just need the code off of it, or you need the CAT guy to come alone and help you.
OK Brian, let’s check pilot circuit first, diagramming shows two plugs at hydraulic lock solenoid block. See if there’s already a diagnostic connector there. There should be 400psi with engine running and armrest down.
Open center refers to the spools in the valve. This machine has open center spools with parallel passages. Oil flow through the center of the valve ends at a cavity where there is a relief valve and a connection back to the pump. Movement of a spool sent out away from the cavity and out to a function and back through the valve and to a return port. The drop in oil flow through the center passages results in a drop in pressure at the bottom cavity which can be felt at the sensor on the pump which tells it to stroke up. It is a loss of flow and pressure that controls the pump hence the name negative control or NC for short. It's in a good thing that you want to help but keep in mind that there are many different ways that hydraulic systems can be put together and every manufacturer has their own terms to describe the components and how their systems work. I always try to make suggestions on things to check or do generic if I have not previously worked on a particular model. If I don't know how a particular system works I wait for someone else to offer up information. I don't want to lead people down a path that is confusing and time consuming with small chances of any results.
Do you mean at area 'G', under the cab? If so, could we agree that there is pressure there if the wand's down and there's a click from the solenoid at the arm and a chunk sound from the solenoid 121 - 1491 and the piping vibrates hard. To get to that solenoid under the cab I have to tilt the cab down and it doesn't seem safe to try to start it with the cab down that way. Here is a picture of the solenoid 121-1491, area 'G', under the cab with the cab lowered:
So, do these pumps have to have the st 1) So the question right now is it normal for this particular pump to not to have any pressure at discharge ports or it have to have stand by pressure induced by those unloaders at the end of gallery? He seems to believe that he has pilot pressure by observing the shaking of the hoses when he puts armrest down. And he also have 400psi at the power shift gaugeport and that is induced by what CAT calls “pressure reducing solenoid” or power shift solenoid in my book, and if it was Kobelco I would say that at 400 psi it is in full destrock mode. As far as I see we have to have that stand by pressure just for things to work, but I’m not familiar with this machine!
Standby pressure is associated with closed center machines. It does not apply here. The PRV is controlled by the computer and not from the negative control function. The machine is a Cat and not a Kobelco so maybe it will only confuse people to compare the way they work when they don't work in the same fashion. As far as the described problem with this machine goes, it has not been established as fact that pilot pressure is getting to the proper places to get the machine to work. It will take a gauge plumbed into the circuit somewhere to confirm that. Perhaps going beyond that step at this point is confusing, time consuming and costly.
I agree with you on making sure that we have pilot pressure going to pilot valves before go and chase own tale, but the owner looks like trobeled by the ackwardnes of such a adventure, I’m not sure that he have running T gaugeports to tap in at control valves or actuators.
I didn’t finish with PRV in my previous post, PRV takes its flow from pilot circuit but it plumbed before hydraulic lock out, so by seeing 400psi pressure at port Y3 we know that pilot pump is OK and we getting flow/pressure up to that point.
Hey John! Why don’t you take over and help Brian with this machine?!
True, I don't have t-gauge ports. I got the port connector from CAT® and modified it from 1/4" npt on the gauge side to my pressure gauges which turned out to be 1/4" bpt, then I checked port pressures and we have the pressure posted previously. OK What would smart money do?
So you have 400 psi at joystick?
Sorry Brian, you checked the pressure at the port that branch out before the lock out valve. I commend you on your resorsfulness, you are true Alaskan!
You need T gauge to tap in to hose- adapter connection at joysticks or travel valves as you say to tap in to the body of lock valve is really uncomfortable for you.
By BPT you mean BSPT (or R1/4)? That’s the same diameter and TPI the difference is angle of the thread it’s 60* for American and 55* for British. Some Kobelco owners don’t know that and just force JIC adapters on BSPP ( straight) on smaller sizes. They don’t even know that the angle of the seat is 37* for JIC and 30* for Japanese standard, but it’s works and do not even leak on things like pilot controls where pressure is about 500psi.
No, I wasn't aware of all of the specifics and differences of the pipe threads, I just know enough that they are different. And although I didn't use it on this adapter, there is a compound called Expando that as worked to make the two threads eork and some people put many multiple wraps of Teflon and force it. My adapter solution was just to run a 1/4 npt on to one of the extra gauge fittings in the kit. So, you recommend that I T in at the solenoid at area G?
We need to get this pilot line question resolved. Pilot pressure is what move big spools in the main control valve. It goes like this : there’s three pumps ( in your case four - that Oil gear for harvester is fourth), two big ones - simply put, each feed half of the functions and one track . For example: the top one feeds bucket, boom and left track; the bottom one feeds swing, arm and right track. It’s all simplified but you get the point! These functions controlled by big control valve located usually right smack in the middle the whole machine, that’s the one to which that have whole bunch of small and big lines going to. So that control valve has big spools in it, which have to be moved in one way or the opposite to perform the certain function. But there’s no mechanical linkages from your joysticks to that valve - it’s all done hydraulicly. That’s where pilot circuit comes in: There’s small pump inside the two big ones, which feeds this pilot circuit, you don’t see it because in case of A8VO it’s inside. This circuit to not waste your fuel and get oil hot for no reason, but mainly for safety reason shuts down by lock valve controlled by armrest. This pilot circuit also in case of your machine feeds the controls of the main pumps. So this pilot circuit goes like this: pilot pump sucks the oil out of tank and spews it in to pilot circuit, than it goes through the filter to that block with few solenoids, on that block all the solenoids control modes not functions, very first one is reduced pressure solenoid which controls pumps flow in accordance with the mode you are in, i also saw fine grade solenoid in there and some other pertaining to modes. Here’s finally the main corse! Parallel to that block the circuit goes to block with single bigger solenoid - and that’s your main lock out one.It is indirect action - meaning: solenoid it self DOES NOT directly shuts down or open the circuit, solenoid only applies or takes away the pressure to a two position spool inside of that block which in turn either opens the passage to goysticks and travel valves or shuts down that passage and diverts the flow to tank. That solenoid May be working but that spool might be stock for some reason. Here’s a main thing: the diagram shows two plugs ( one of them might already have the diagnostics quick connect in it - small cylinder with groove on close to the end ), both shows to be AFTER the lock out valve spool. So we can connect to that block and check the pressure there, or we can try and tee in to hose-adapter connection at that joysticks or travel valve or directly at the main control valve.
Does your harvester work?
The computer will power up but there is no function at the head. That's a good idea though to power it up and go into the engineering menu and check voltage at the head. don't think there's pressures in the menu, but I will review.
This is likely an electrical issue and there has to be a diagnostic procedure. I've checked pressure ports as recommended at location F.
I asked you this question because I have lingering feeling about gear drive inside that pump. Although i looked at the images I can find on this one and cannot see how you can loose all drive but pilot pump! But I never seen it live so there is a chance that it can happen. How many hoses you have going to the harvester? Two big ones rest is wires or more?
The cab computer had a diagnostic menu. Main pressure to the head is 0, Load sense pressure is 0. This result was the same for each of the individual tests of all the functions on that head. The hoses on the head will shake pretty strongly when controls are operated and some functions on the head will work slowly, like the the de-limb arms will operate, slowly. There are multiple hoses going to the Head, 7 in all, 1 with electrical. The oil gear pump test port shows zero pressure also.
Test the Oil gear pump pressure while trying to use saw, that one is delta P open center and needs to be loaded to test pressure. For now this points toward drives, but I fall to see how changing the starter can damage drives at this point.
Did harvester work before starter change?
Harvester worked Great
Pretty sure the onboard computer confirmed that there was no pressure past the Oilgear pump
Everything points toward drives at this point, if you will not get the pressure from loaded Oil Gear pump, remove the case drain hose from mains and start the engine to see if you will get oil coming out of the pump. Ask someone for help so you will not spill a lot of oil. The slow movements on harvester is probably pilot pressure leaking over.
You want to check case drain? Thats the hose coming from top of the pumps body and should go to the side of hydraulic tank.
I looked at drives and I don’t see how we can loose drive to main and PTO but still have drive to pilot. We REALLY need to check pilot pressure past lockout valve because we will keep questioning our selfs. You said something about pressure at location F I don’t knock where and what it is, can you clarify and tell me what the pressure reading was?
Location F is referenced on the electric schematic Nige sent. That location is the pump compartment. The last post on page one shows the pressure taps and pressures. I suppose tomorrow I will pull the hood off again and take another look at that starter and the area around it. There was a harness that didn't seem to go anywhere, just dangling. I'll give it some thought about pulling hoses off and starting the engine. Maybe if I can get someone to hold my beer while I do it.
There’s supposed to be a green smily after mentioning of beer! The reason I want you to do the case drain thing to know that your mains is turning, if they do - oil should come out of it. Shaking of the hoses is not accurate pressure reading the stronger the springs on spools and the smaller the area on actuators the more pressure we need to move those spools.
You can’t do a case drain test on a 320 pump. The pump case is open to the tank line and the pilot pump draws its oil from inside the case. If you have pilot pressure that means the main pumps are turning. If you use a low enough gauge you should see a couple hundred psi at main pump pressure ports when the machine is running.
Oh shoot! I forgot that there is no case drain on this pump! That’s the problem - he has no stand by pressure but looks like he has pilot pressure, at least at power shift gauge port. Also he has no pressure at PTO pump for harvester. The thing is he don’t want to check if pilot pressure gays passed lock out valve, because it’s ackward to get to that block, and he don’t have tee adapter to tap in at other places - all he knows that solenoid clicks and hoses shake. I had this crazy theory about problem with gears for pumps drive - but I don’t see any way of this happening!
I see you have 400 psi on the prv so that’s normal. I think you have a problem in the pilot Lockout under cab. You should hear a clunk in that valve when you lift the safety lever in cab. I’m sorry if I missed something in your previous posts. I kind of breezed through most of it.
He got the click and got she shake, but no joy! No info on pressure AFTER lock out VALVE as that solenoid is not what closes pilot line it self, but opening pressure to two position valve which in turn opens pilot line! How it’s all coincides with changing the starter - don’t ask me!
The PRV, travel, leveling and some other solenoid is on parallel line with pilot circuit that feeds joysticks and pedal valves, and later gets shot down by hydraulic lock out valve.
That’s what I’m trying to get him to do - make sure that he has 400-500 psi on pilot circuit!
But no stand by pressure on mains is strange - because I see unloaders in hydraulic diagram! There was a guy chiming in on this thread that supposed to know a lot more then I do, and he said that there’s not supposed to be a stand by pressure because it is open center system ( I don’t know what those unloaders for then ) but he just commented and went away to do better things, and wouldn’t help this guy!
The fact that we have some slow movements in the harvester - hints me to a thought that he has pilot pressure but it’s just too low, but high enough to shake the hoses.
Mobiltech - there's a chunk sound with the safety lever lifting. Here is a WAV file from a Google folder that maybe you could open: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1tu1LK-FFLCI8dGWEWmg37S3vLUu0dAO3 If you don't want to open it it's just me lifting the safety lever several times and the chunk sound happens every time the lever is lifted. That solenoid is under the cab and accessible with the cab lowered. When the starter wasn't working I was pushing all the buttons on the dash, not all of those buttons are operational as the crew before me by-passed some computer functions. You know the engine won't start when the wand's up, so I thought maybe there was a problem that way before I diagnosed the starter for sure having fried the brushes to the commutator. Now the engine starts great. I'm willing to T in somewhere if I knew what I was doing but starting the engine with the cab lowered is physically not safe. Maybe feeling for pressure at the solenoids in area f, the hydraulic pump area, see which solenoid is actually number 4 in Nige's schematic. Check ohms on that one?
Gentlemen, I haven't gone away, just sitting back and watching. Mr. BrianGrenier has not confirmed that pilot pressure it getting past the hydraulic lock out. That will require a gauge be installed down stream of that valve somewhere. If you don't have a gauge then you will need to obtain one. In my experience all the tilting cabs are designed to tip past center and that is why there is a cable stay. You will likely have to place some type of stand between the cab to safely work underneath there if in fact the cab doesn't tip over center. It is obvious that you don't understand how the machine systems work and you don't have the tools necessary to troubleshoot and repair the problem. I would advise that you need someone on site that does. The Cat dealer in Alaska is NC Machinery and they have very good field service people.
I totally agree on confirmation of GOOD pilot pressure AFTER lockout valve!
Well, we know s happens and for example in troubleshooting I tilted the cab down and when the cab got back up the computer for the Harvester head didn't work, so track down fuses first and then wiring and found loose wire. I'm an owner operator and care about the stuff that I run and I think I need to have a reasonable understanding about the operations of stuff. But I haven't got Hydraulics figured out and I'm cautious. I'll check the safe items and I intend to look for electrical issues as a possible cause. I really appreciate the help, thank you.
Something I didn’t fully understand in your last post, did you fix the problem or that was just an exemple of previous occurrence?
TVA, what happened was you asked about the Harvester head. Checking the Harvester head was a great idea. But the computer wouldn't boot. No big deal to check a few things and now the computer is on. With the computer running, the diagnostic menu showed no pressures, although the head will respond very slowly/weakly. Does that make sense?
The question of pilot pressure is still very much open! What worries me ( and I respectfully disagree with John C ) that we don’t have stand by pressure at mains. It just dawned on me that it can be suction issue instead of drives! But I think that everybody would very much like to get pilot pressure question answered!
All piston pumps have standby pressure because the swashplate never goes to zero angle so that pump is always moving a little oil for lubrication
That’s the problem - he has no stand by pressure, and I see unloaders in diagram!
And he also have PTO pump for running the harvester- that one pretty much dead too, although that one appeares to be delta P LS open center pump so it needs to be loaded to see pressure on it!
By unloaders do you mean relief valves? It has main reliefs and line reliefs but the pump unloading is all done hydraulically with negflow
Yeah! The 400 psi relief valves at the end of the “neutral “ gallery of control valve!
Or might not be 400 psi but around that!
Basically negcon pressure creators.
So... Is there pilot oil at the end of a main control valve spool? Is that what we are waiting for?
Well we waiting for OP to check his pilot pressure After hydraulic lock valve! But since I’m not CAT guy I wasn’t sure about not having stand by pressure. And I asked another CAT guy about full destrock - he didn’t answered. Now you clarified. Thank you !!!
Now it becomes 95% pilot pressure issues! And we are waiting on confirmation. r20d12 - you know that control valve better , can you help OP with choosing reason get connection to break and what function it’s a n and what T fitting he needs to acquire?! Please!
And I would like to know too, what CAT uses for hose fittings JIC or ORFS ?
Yes! I miss understood you earlier. OP has no stand by pressure on either mains, so it’s either both unloaders just fully opened up at the same time ( which is highly unlikely), or we don’t have any flow from pumps. Since i don’t know CATs I’m wondering if the pumps can be fully destrock by PRV valve at least ( maybe ) when arm rest is s down, and there’s pressure switch somewhere on pilot line which sends the signal to an ECM which in turn adjusts the PRV signal pressure to “stand by” flow. Otherwise I don’t see purpose for thes unloaders!
I just looked at manual and I didn’t see the pressure switch, there’s travel, implement, attachment pressure switches but no “ pilot on” pressure switch. So for now not having stand by pressure is a problem, unless someone can convince me otherwise!
Hey CAT guys, is it possible to open that hyd. Lock solenoid with screwdriver?
Cat uses oring face. One uses a 13/16 nut on the line and the other is 5/8 I believe. (Easily checked by OP) Cat can order those tee fittings. I always just picked the easiest pilot line on top of the main control valve. BE SURE TO BLEED SYSTEM PRESSURE!!! Install the tee. Operate that function. It should be close to pilot relief spec. If you have it there. Everything in the cab is working fine.
I like how you used "WHICH IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY". That's a joke with my CAT friends cuz the old guys blamed the ECM for everything back in the day. Cat had so many good ecms returned for warranty they started putting that in the troubleshooting section. They go down the list of possible causes then at the end it says failed ECM "WHICH IS HIGHLY UNLIKELY" LOL everytime one of us truly suspects an ECM. The others will say which is highly unlikely. Goodtimes!
Its just a mechanical micro switch
Soo did op ever check suction screen and return filters? I had a 235b with bad pump drive coupler that but would build few hundred psi off pressure due to friction drive... I've never seen any excavator without some standby pressure but I've not seen everything.
Friction drive is somewhere on the back of my mind, but I didn’t even want to announce it. We are having problems getting OP do things to find out what is going on. I think right now he is going electrical route. I’m in a suction restriction theory phase, I haven’t ripened up to friction drive theory yet! One thing I don’t get is what all of this got to do with starter replacement?
I'm guessing starter is unrelated unless it's simple hyd. Lock in pilot. I'm thinking coupler drive broke on start up. Had one like this years ago that was ice in suction...
I think the only time You probably not gonna see stand by pressure on delta P load sensing system with integrated ( inside pumps discharge ) metering orifice systems. I think if I’m not mistaken that’s what OP has on his harvester pump ( at least that pump has that options ) even then it should have two gauge port on each side of orifice - for diagnostic purposes. The delta P that use directional control valve as a metering orifice there’s should be back pressure because system needs to see that pressure drop out of something!
The thing is that everything drives off of gear which also lower pumps main shaft and also pistons holder, for that to happen that gear must be intact and everything else in pieces, ( look up A8VO ). I think OP would have heard something like that!
I’m not sure if I’ve ice possible in Willow Alaska at this time of year!
I’m sorry, I was wrong - posicon will not show any stand by pressure, except maybe slight return filter and cooler back pressure.
When the computer wouldn't boot (again) it seemed that spending the afternoon working on new starter connections would be productive. There are 4 fat terminals going to a starter terminal and the new starter terminal is a bit shorter and the nut supplied had few threads to the face of the terminal, not so great connection. I used a lot of noalox and got good tight connections, aluminum to aluminum lugs and a copper crimped lug fitting on the copper starter terminal. Picture shows the new connection and the starter, but there is no computer and no hyd pressure. I will read through previous postings and see what is suggested. Thanks for the help!
Where did your starter switch go? Have you checked your pump controller fuses? Check the wiring harness under the cab especially where the cab hinges . Good luck Bob
I hope you insulated that pretty good !
Man would I like to work on this....
I said that earlier. It would be a fun one no doubt!
It's a fall day with lots of color in the trees, a moose grazing nearby, no snow yet! Come over if you want. So if one checks the pilot pressure on the port that cat provided which was 400 PSI some of you guys are saying I need to T-in before that one and check pressure. If so, at that main pump or near the solenoid under the cab. Ohmed the solenoids at the pump compartment in the diagram sent on the first page with Solenoids ohms right to left 1 1.1 2 2.2 3 7.8 4 17.8 or o.l now 1.1 now 5 Computer stopped again There's another test port at the Fram filter visible in an earlier picture and that port is a different size than the fitting from CAT. Anyway, just been chatting with this post to keep in the loop and obviously I have to check out the electrical first for the computer.
Those four solenoids is PRV, high travel, leveling mode and trenching mode - got little to do with your problems. The one you need check sits separate on hydraulic manifold, and even if it works there’s no guarantee that the lock out valve that it supposed to shift is doing that. That’s everybody is telling you that you need to check pressure after or down stream of that valve.
That test port by FRAM filter is looking like the standard PD style quick connect ( or snap ) used by CAT, Case, Etc. it’s on right circuit (pilot ) but in wrong location - it is BEFORE or upstream of lock out valve. If you will find similar test connector on manifold with single solenoid ( BTW you posted picture of it before and even recording of sound ) then it is what you need.
BTW I wouldn’t recommend using FRAM filters!
Just because the filter was orange I assumed it was Fram, this filter was Donaldson. The update is the computer's running again. Computer lead in wire to connector on side of ac heater box, was stretched there or on the other end of the same cable, looks like the ground wire was stretched, but since the computer is running I'm leaving it for now, it looks stable. The priority then is the Hydraulics. I pulled the solenoid, 121 - 1491 underneath the cab. Ohms were high, I lowered it and when reinstalled it the controls didn't work at all with no thunk sound. I adjusted it higher and controls will thunk but no main pressure. Thanks again for the help, I think I'll take the solenoid to the dealer, the service guy Derek is pretty friendly and helpful. B
Another thing kinda slipped out of everybody’s mind: we treat this machine as excavator! But that’s a forestry machine! The third pump/system also affects torque limiting, with PRV in the “picture” it’s easy to assume that how it’s done, but no one knows for sure because we have no pumps full code or even diagram or pictures of all controll hoses connected to the pump. There’s few different hydraulic options when it comes to hydraulic coupling with PTO pump. PRV is one of them and would be natural choice because it requires no changes to machine, but you never know!
Do you have the hydraulic schematic..? If not here it is.
Thanks Nige! It is PRV torque limiter, like I said the natural choice would be!
And it also confirms my assumption that harvesters saw pump Is open center delta P with integrated metering orifice as no control hydraulic lines goes to that pump!
It turns out there is another Test port, behind the accumulator... Pressure tap #28. It reads about 570 psi which is in spec of 595+- 29psi. This port is on the pilot oil manifold.
My bad! I called it saw pump - but it’s grapple rotating pump!
Again wrong location! It is before lock out valve , not after. But at least we know that pressure maintains 570 psi. by pump and relief valve. What the CAT said about solenoid? Can you look for the same pressure port on the manifold with single solenoid?
Brian, there’s simple test to find out if your mains is good after confirmation of good pilot pressure: disconnect and plug all three small hoses going to your pumps regulator. Start the engine and try to use the machine, if engine boggs down or even stalls - it will mean your rotational groups is pretty much alive and kicking!!! Or even better: disconnect one of the hoses from the top connected by the adjustment screws, put it in the bucket, ask someone to start the engine but be ready to shut it down quickly, if you have oil coming out of that hose it means pump doing something, if not - it’s dead.
That must be the one marked PG on the diagram, SA1 is the one on single solenoid manifold and that’s the one you need.
About the solenoid the dealer seem to just pass interest on that. Derek and Dan were helpful and Derek printed out the tests for the pilot pressure, which as you point out isn't in the right place unfortunately. The slightly smaller port tap at the Donaldson filter is a oil sampling port they say. Where did you find sa1?
On the diagram Nige gave us, right on outlet side of lock out valve, if you look at diagram and see four solenoid block just look to the left of it . There’s another one SB2 but that one on drain line.
I had overlooked the Hyd Schematic from Nige! About the saw/grapple pump, the machine may or may not have had a grapple but the attachment on this thing now is a Waratah 620 harvester head.
The only problem with that diagram is that shows loader not harvester!
Yeah that diagram shows it with a loader only, that’s why they show fixed displacement PTO pump and closed center DCV because it is only for grapple rotator. Your machine is far more complicated!
Attached is what is referred to as port #28, near the accumulator. I'm still looking for SA1. NC suggeted the starter might have gone out with the pump seizing, just a theory only. Just one more comment about the starter, the brushes were burnt and commutator was melted, but there was nothing to indicate mechanical failure of anything but the starter. All systems were good. About fuses, all fuses check good, but the one next to the Hyd Lock has no power in or out, like it is unused. Next to...not the same one. Not a clue, I guess.
If this is a power shift pump and the throttle is manual, maybe there is another by-pass besides throttle?
It is a power shift pump, and I hate do disappoint you but seased pump sounds about right, with you not having the stand by pressures! Seased, forced over, and broken in pieces, that’s only logical explanation of what I see from here, same for starter brushes and commutator melting. You don’t need pilot pressure to do hose to bucket test - do it now, at least you will know if you have a flow.
Something is interesting about the increase in engine speed decreases the signal current to solenoid (6) in the attachment...Maybe passage (14) is never opening? Please see attachment
It seems I need to locate the electrical connection(s) to the solenoid (6) on the proportional reducing valve (7). The way I read it, "when the engine is operating, an electrical signal from the electronic controller energizes solenoid (6)." But there is no electronic controller on this machine as it's been hacked(;D)
If it’s hacked then your toggle switch switched to manual and you get “middle” performance of your hydraulics. Non of this affects your stand by pressure.
Solenoid 6 is the first in-line to accumulator and pressure relief valve ( adgustment screw on the side of four solenoid manifold), that procedure is for calibrating engine load with normally functioning computer which reads the engine rpms and when it sees engine rpm dropping out of spec it increases PWM signal to solenoid which in turn increases pressure in the line which in turn destrocks swash plate angle which in turn reduces the flow produced by pumps, reduced flow reduces the pressure and reduced pressure reduce engine load.
Look at the return filter - if you will se debris in there - know that is only small portion of the debris, as this pump does not have a case drain and most of it laying at the bottom of the pump.
Forgive me while I play Devil's Advocate on this suggestion. It's in my nature... Everything when good when last shut down before starter issue. After the starter was replaced the pump did not run, so no junk possible. So that's that, We might agree that Amps spiked when starter commutator melted. I also had a computer wiring issue which is maybe a clue.
The starter switch terminal on the new starter? I'm thinking it's visible in the picture...
Brian! This will be my last post on this thread unless you would want me to come back to it: based on the information you provided your pumps just NOT pumping anything! There’s a little chance that something happened to your regulators and for some reason they do not provide pressure on upstroke side of a servo piston but chances of that happening is extremely slim! At this point it looks a lot like what I’ve been saying in the beginning- catastrophic failure! I’m sorry! God help and bless you!!!
TVA, absolutely I want you to come back on this one! You have a Lot of good ideas. It's just that i didn't want to pull a filter out in the rain today and also picking a hyd hose to run open without a helper here in the woods isn't ideal. It should be obvious that I don't know much about hydraulics. I'm not ready to start pricing a new pump, not even goin' to. But tossing this problem around is a good learning experience for me. Thanks for your input and Nige and Bluox and others who would like to come by and check it out! So for now, I hoped we might ponder why if that solenoid (6) isn't getting power how is it regulating flow? A slim chance of no mains pressure being wiring I'll take...
And John c was right that it is confusing, lol.
Anyone know where to get senr9291? Systems Operation, Testing and Adjusting: Engine and Pump Electronic Control System : For the 311B, 312B, 315B, 320B, 322B, 325B and 330B Family Tracked Excavators. SENR9291
Hey CAT guys, Tracing wiring from ecm and to the proportional reducing solenoid valve at pilot block, there's something called Backup epr valve sw... What would that translate to? I read it as backup electronic pressure reducing valve switch. It's a toggle...
Yep, that's the manual override for the proportional reducing valve which bypasses the ECM and in manual mode is selectable for rabbit or turtle. In Turtle mode there would be an increase signal to the solenoid at the pressure reducing valve and a decrease in pump output.
The dealer didn't have information on what the amperage should be at the EPR valve...I measured about 1A with a Fluke clamp meter. 1A seems very low...
SENR9291 "Not Found" according to what I have access to.
Thanks for looking! I'm currently tracking wires off of the electrical schematic you sent. Cat had one of the fuses labeled 'backup', but that's the backup prv switch, I think I was misled by the wording on the fuse panel. So, that fuse leads in the schematic over to the hydraulic lock solenoid. Soon as I find it in the relay panel, hope to know a little more. Btw, I was told to look at that relay earlier by, was it, John... ;D
Working on your specific machine Serial Number I have found another document regarding SysOp and Test & Adjust though - RENR1998. It's in a bunch of separate sections so it's not a simple download, but I'll see if I can't download all the separate documents and splice them together with Adobe Acrobat. Stand by ..........
Thanks Nige! I'm liking what the Waratahs folks have for troubleshooting information. It turns out that the Cat schematic regarding pumps isn't what's on this machine. Here is how the carrier pilot solenoid valves work (carrier is Cat® 320 BL) Electricity sent to the solenoid, causes an electromagnet This magnetism shifts the hydraulic valve When the valve shifts, this sends pilot pressure to shift the carrier spool and stroke pumps High pressure is sent to the Head There are two solenoids, pump 1 and pump 2 Pump 1 shifts the carrier spool to get one pump flow 45 GPM Pump 2 shifts a carrier spool to send secondary pump flow to head additional 40 GPM The Waratah controls the pumps.
I'm sorry I have bad news for you regarding RENR1998. It appears to be more slanted towards diagnosing the electronic controls and how they interact with the engine than the hydraulic side of things, certainly when it comes to Testing & Adjusting. Here is the SysOp part of it FWIW.
The sysop was Very useful! Especially so was the block diagram on page 2. The problem is either with the cabin module for the Harvester head or the controller in the cab. It looks like a bad Cat controller. As was pointed out earlier. it's never the ECM but this time I think so. I'm not sure I wrote it earlier but there is no voltage to the prv and I need to finish verifying voltage to the 111-1491 relay from the harvester head controller. I imagine I will be pricing a Cat controller soon.
I wrote that above for my easy-chair not sure why I jumped to a conclusion as I needed to check the relay further. I only see .240 ohms resistance at that relay so I need to check specs. There may be other identical relays on this machine.
They say don't weld on the machine with the controller connected. I think the starter commutator frying damaged the controller. Tracing and checking wiring from both directions to the Cat Controller leads to an electrical fault there. All wires, switches, connections and relays either side of it checked out. I need a new controller, or a by-pass... I have a partial copy of senr9291, from the dealer. Bear with me here in a minute as I try to figure out how to get proper voltage / amperage to the proportional reducing solenoid valve (PRV). "a decrease in engine speed increases the signal current to solenoid which increases the magnetic force... The powershift pressure increases and the pump detrokes". Then conversely, they say "an increase in engine speed decreases the signal current to selenoid which decreases the magnetic force... The powershift pressure decreases and the pump upsrokes. What's the correct voltage and amperage to the PRV from the ECM for an 'upstroke'? 24 volts at battery amperage is too much for the prv and it will not upstroke, i tried it. Maybe I could go to the dealer and they would let me put my clamp meter on a solenoid on a similar machine? The dealer couldn't tell me what voltage and amperage should be.
Brian, two words - “stand-by pressure”! Do you have it? With your way of thinking you about to turn $8000-$9000 problem in to $15000 problem and making the fool of your self! Check if you have flow from main pumps! Before calling it bad controller go through proper procedure of checking it. Regardless of what I think of you I don’t want you to waste money!
When you activate the backup mode switch, it sends 24V to the PRV through a 47ohm resistor for a sort of "limp home" feature. So 24V / 47R is roughly 0.5A.
A 47 ohm resistor in line from the alt to the prv is my next check. I read in one of the manuals that a methodical approach is a good one so that's what I'm hoping to do with following through on the electrical side of this. The check will involve the 'back up' resistor which is on the machine but isn't in line with the auto/manual switch. The Harvester head folks or someone else bypassed that switch. The monitor panel only lights up with the SW in auto, nothing in manual, so no backup installed here. I'll take that resistor and put it in line to the prv from the alternator and see if it strokes the pump. Btw, backup resistor is counterintuitive to me. It implies that you're backing up, but, thanks Cmark, it is just a limp-home. Yep, I plan to put that resistor in-line to the prv and bypass the controller as the switch was meant to do... wish me luck. I think it will be Wednesday or Thursday.
If the monitor turns off when the backup toggle switch is in manual mode then that is correct. The switch kills power to the monitor, sends a fixed current to the PRV and gives you basic control of the governor actuator via the second switch.
That's good to know, and I was mistaken about the switch not working. Also and by the way, the resistor in-line has the correct ohm reading. so The actual next step is a reading of the + terminal at the prv solenoid with the auto/man switch in manual mode. In auto mode there is 8.43 amps and 0 v.
The Proportional Solenoid Valve is bad, 111-9916. I made a pigtail which I cut from a headlight wire, then put it into the solenoid, then checked ohms, which read open. Easy
Pilot pressures have now been tested, finally after all winter I was introduced to a mechanical engineer with extensive boat hydraulic experience and he set me up with a t (JIC) and a gauge past the lockout on the swing pilot where I read 550 PSI. That's a first step I understand.
Hi Brian! What is your stand by ( main ) pressure on both pumps?
(1) power shift pressure = 400psi (2) upper pump delivery pressure= 0psi (3) lower pump delivery pressure= 0ps
In this case beside someone sabotaging your machine by removing NFC relief valves and installing plugs in place of them, I’m afraid there’s something really wrong with your pumps.
Another thing to find out ( or be honest ) did someone messed with pumps adjustment screws? Because minimum displacement in A8VO sets hydraulically!
There's been no adjustment of the hydraulics, the only event was the replacement of an alternator and prior to that perhaps two months before was a power washing of the harvester.
Are Cat® ecm's ever bench tested?
It is REALLY hard to look for black cat in totally dark room!
Only by the manufacturer when they are first manufactured. No idea who that is, probably some Taiwanese electronics company. For a dealer it's almost impossible to build a rig to simulate the ECM being installed on a machine, actually easier to install the ECM on the machine and test it that way.
Not saying you don't have an electrical issue as well but if you have 0 output pressure on your main pumps you need to figure that out before anything else is going to make it work again
My new hydro friend will be over tomorrow. He has a Cat marine contact for additional intelligence. Gregg also suggested posting here as you folks are a great resource. I imagine that next we will look for why the mains have zero pressure. In case I get any questions about why I don't go to the dealer, I have and last I was there they were between service managers and no direct experience with this harvester. If there was a code reader that could be plugged in that would be pretty useful.
The a and b model excavators were the first with electronic controls. All diagnostics, calibrations etc are done through the monitor. They're kind of a pain in the ass. There is no connector to hook a computer to them.
More pressure test results are in: At idle with the wand down (hydraulic lockout): Top pump - 240 PSI Bottom pump - 240 PSI Wand up, hydraulics safety off, medium high rpm, Heal boom up control activated: Top pump - 750 psi (no movement of boom, engine load increased slightly ) Bottom pump Stick raise - 600 psi "slight movement" Stick lower - 600 psi "slight movement" Tracks activated - small bump on both gauges. Hope you all are having a great day! I am 'cause I think I will not need new pumps! What is the next step?
That’s a far cry from zero! What did you do to have stand by pressure?
Consult with manual or ask a CAT guys, but I think 250 is little to low, might not have enough pressure to upstroke swash plate. Also 400 PRV might be too high for idle. At least we can work with something now!
You can try to disconnect PRV and see if the PRV pressure will drop, and if it will get more power to your pumps. Then you gonna need to see your NFC pressures ( two small hydraulic hoses coming from main control valve to pump regulators ). You should see the stand by ( or slightly lower ) pressure at neutral, and pressure should drop when you move any control levers (joysticks).
Pressures should have jumped up instantly when you moved a function, even at idle. The tracks should have moved the machine even at low idle. My instincts say you have some big problems somewhere. You should try to find someone local to have a look.
Thanks for the help! What was different was the gauge used. The second was a lower pressure one so it read the lower pressure better!
There's not really a spec but standby on excavators is usually 5-600psi. Does your pressure change with rpm? Next thing I'd want to check is pilot and powershift pressure. Pilot should be 575ish I think. If you can tee into the negative flow linesand check there too it would be great. Negative flow pressure sure more or less equal pump pressure for each side with everything still and should fall as you start to move anything.
Power shift is 400. 315c ( different pump though) specked stand by at 340. And that information was not readily available in manual!
Seems like minimum displacement is little too low.
Pilot pressure was about 575, yeah, about, or so, when swinging left, on the fitting that we connected to. We'll have to run a test if pressure changed with RPM. The engine did show signs of a load, but it was minimal. My local guy helping me said to be sure to say that he is just some Norwegian that happened by but honestly he does have a lot of experience in hydraulics but little to none in mobile cat and little experience in electric. Both of us appreciate the help that can be proffered here.
Hey Newguy2k3, what do you think about “engine killing” test? To find out weather pumps worth anything? I doubt OP can find flowmeter with load cell in Willow AK!
Never tried or had to myself. If it worked perfectly fine before I doubt this is a problem that is going to "need" a flowmeter to figure out. Could be a spring in the main relief valve broken. Maybe the full pilot pressure isn't getting through the enable solenoid, the controls and back to the main valve.
You right about main relief! Looks like he had full pilot pressure at swing though. I still can’t figure out what the bad starter got to do with this! Unless pumps where seizing, and new starter had more power to force them over!
What would the gear drive off the 3066 engine look like? Is there a failure point there?
As far as I remember your pilot pump gear as a last in the chain. That’s why I don’t think it is gear drive issue. But let me check
I suggest you remove and check main relief valve.
Looks like I was wrong, pilot is intermediary gear between main shaft and your harvester pump, even if your idler pumps gear is bad you still have to have one working pump. https://pkmoscow.ru/uploads/wys/File/RRS 93010-17-R_0503.pdf Or. http://hydravlica.com.ua/files/re93010.pdf
If you thinking the stripped splines on main shaft - then you should also loose (drop ) pilot pressure while trying to use any function. It s a possibility of friction drive on the main shaft or coupler - but it should show up as drop in pilot pressure/flow while loading the pumps.
The hydro guy here that's been helping me came up with the Bosch rexroth AG pump information and for that Rexroth pump there's a possible cause list for No or insufficient pressure: Mechanical drive eg defective coupling Insufficient pilot pressure or control pressure External control of the control device defective One of the three seems to be the possibility here... There was no sound of a mechanical failure, it seems we've established there's pilot pressure so that would leave external control. What do you think and how to check the external control? We have some minor movement of the boom when RPMs are high. The harvester head with the Oil Gear pump has some functions that will move but very sluggishly. The engineering monitor for pressure to the harvester head does not show pressure.
Pilot pressure drops slightly then remains at a high 500, when using swing...
Most likely your drive is OK then! Have you checked main relief valve?
We will look at the main relief valve and consider pulling the pumps to inspect the condition of the drive coupling.
Don’t forget to thoroughly inspect suction strainer and pipes/hoses while pump will be off!
I wouldn't waste your time on the pulling the pump just to get at the drive coupling. If it's a bowex flange they work until they just don't and you'll have nothing. If it's the iron cross style which I believe it likely is, the plastic element can disentigrate and you'll get a noticeable clunking from the flywheel housing on shutdown and maybe at idle. Point being though with either style the pump turns or it doesn't.
Wow and thank you...I was just getting ready to pull them...
I would still check the suction.
No filter (s) on suction line(s)
Suction strainer is inside your hydraulic fluid tank, should be right underneath of breather, which BTW supposed to keep in tank pressure around 10 psi when machine reaches operating temperature. But even if the strainer not plugged it doesn’t mean that something not blocking pipe hose and even pumps intake!
Plugged suction actually lines up with theory why out of four pumps the only smallest displacement GEAR pump is working! Plugged suction is supposed to make a noise, but I’m not sure if you can recognize it. And BTW we discussed this theory six months ago with gentleman from Oklahoma on this very thread!
Here's the section view of the drive coupling...
I like the suction theory, we have a suction filter but no apparent filters on the suction lines. So pull the suction filter?
There are two suction lines
How many suction strainers inside the tank do you have? On the top of the tank should be two flanges, one with breather Is on top of suction strainer, the other on top of return filter. Take one with breather off, there should be a rod going down to bottom, on the other end of this rod should be a strainer.
Btw bent axis pump without case drain might not even make cavitation noise with suction plugged, if valve plate is not terribly tight, but your harvester pump should.
It would be nice to have data at the unit..
Is the smaller hose with the flange going to harvester pump intake?
That big pipe which is on the right, goes in to the tank, then has 90 elbow with kinda shorter vertical stub out raised few inches off the tanks floor. The suction strainer kinda looks like the one for sump or thrash water pump but a lot finer mash, it has big hole on the bottom with O-ring in it, goes ever that pipe stub out and seals with that o-ring. On the lid of the strainer has a hole for the rod which fastened to the lid. That rod is for you to pull and clean the strainer without having to drain the oil out of the tank.
If it was my machine I would pump or drain the oil and I would go through the whole suction from the tank to pumps intake. Just to cross this possibility off the list! But everybody has their own way of thinking and doing stuff!
There was only a return filter and it's a large Donaldson element. There doesn't appear to be any suction filters and the manual does not discuss replacing or servicing a suction filter. How about that? Picture uploaded to show the dirt in the housing return filter which appeared quite dirty...No light through this element. I may know more Wednesday if replacing it allows the pressures to build. I have a good feeling about this. What do you think? A picture of the return line from the radiator where I have a question if maybe some crud would be sitting in that low area of the piping?
To check regular suction screen you don’t have to drain the oil, just simply pull it out by the rod, careful not to loose the spring. It might not be your problem or it might be a part of your problem! But doing the whole procedure of checking and cleaning the whole suction part of your hydraulic system will be beneficial to your machine!!!
Looks like your Stand By pressure should be 290psi. Which may turn out is what you have if the accuracy of your gauge is not that great! It’s little difficult to have accurate readings on lower pressures if your equipment is somewhat inferior, and with bourbon tube gauges you have to be at right resolution!
I have the filters ordered and I'm thinking to just put on the return filter until I get the machine running then replace All filters, including Another return filter And hydraulic oil. The one suction filter had a little bit of tree stuff in it but was mostly open, no hardware... There was a small chunk of hardware in the return filter. TVA, do you ever sleep?
Plugged return filter cold not allowed NFC pressure to drop thus not upstroking the main pump! If we allow our selves to theorize further than we can assume that return filter got plugged to the point that bypass valve opened up and contamination start getting in to tank where plugged both suction screens! But it is only theory! Need to check and clean. It is very seldom that you have only one problem. BTW do you know what condition your travel and swing breaks in? Also, do you have any cylinders or motors leaking through the seals, especially on harvester ( being potentially very dusty environment)?
I sleep, but sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and can’t fall a sleep again.
I don’t remember ( and don’t wanna go back to check) what type of head you have, but if it is feller with large circular saw, then biggest source of your contamination will be that saw’s motor! Because that blade is a flywheel, and I’m sure there’s make up or otherwise called “anti cavitation” valves, but when your blade winding down there’s below atmospheric pressure conditions exist inside that motor! But I remember reading about a research report saying that fine dust will get in through cylinder rod seals and motor seals.
Yes, it goes to the Oil Gear pump (Harvester head). The larger one is to the Rexroth (Carrier) pump.
I'm seeing the dirty return filter and a bit of tree stuff in the coarse filter that drops into the hydraulic tank. I have not seen other suction filters. Travel and swing brakes are good. No major leaks. And about the saw(s), there are two chainsaws on this Waratah 620 head. You're likely right that they are the source of the tree debris
It looks like it has two case drain filters, one return filter, one suction strainer and another one that goes to the head. I need help to know what that would be called and I don't have a filter element for it yet but I assume it's a filter it's the tall one to the right in the picture. I believe the two smaller ones to the left of it are called the case drain filters and the hydraulic tank is farther to the left with the suction filter and the return filter not in the top picture. Pilot filter and return filter will be in the bottom picture. Return filter and pilot filter below
Have you ever removed the circular cover with the electrical wire connected to it on the top RH side of your last photo..? If I'm correct there should be a screen under that cover.
The suction strainer is under the four bolted cover that has the fill cap. The first photo with the long and heavy canister is a return filter for some attachment. It isn't likely that is a Cat part. Those are usually installed on machines with log processing heads. It would be a return filter. What kind of processor do you have on the machine?
Nige, as John C. points out, that cover is over the suction strainer and has a pressure cap with an overflow hose... John C. that long canister Does have a hose to the attachment, so a return filter for that, it is, thanks. The processor is a Waratah 620 with well over a dozen hydraulic functions. The manual that came with the machine discusses changing the hydraulic system oil, venting the system at the pump, cleaning the strainer at the fill, replacing the pilot filter, replacing the case drain filter, and replacing the hydraulic system oil return filter. Now, do I 1 change hydraulic oil, about 90 gallons, first and All hydraulic filters, or 2. just try the return filter first, get 'er running, then change All? That vent at the top of the pump is worthy of note.
I think it depends on when the last time the hydraulic fluid was changed and what is service interval for it! If it’s time to replace the fluid I would do the whole thing, and all filters! Like I said it might not be your problem or it might be part of your problem(s). But t it’s something that have to be done ( unless it was done very recently), and this is what you supposed to start with when diagnosing no or weak hydraulics!!! Suction is imperative!!!
Sorry, I thought that was the strainer that everyone was talking about/looking for.........
That’s a same thing!
I would also suggest after filter replacement pull check and if necessary clean both NFC relief valves. Or at least take NFC pressure drop readings. Another thing - the manual doesn’t show it but it seems that your processor hydraulic circuit has separate suction strainer/screen inside the tank, and for that you may have to drain the tank to get to it.
Yep! The only thing is that's a overflow hose.
Kinda looks like wiring harness though!
Engine oil was quite dirty, and I'm seeing the hydraulic tank not looking good either, mostly. So your point is taken, Thanks!! I hope to get to a post-mortem on this project someday, but just one item to think about that I should have done first was check the vent on the top pump and see if something coming out of it, lol, that's on my list to do today. And shopping for two 55 barrels of Cat spec to-4 oil. I have to be an optimist about spending perhaps $1500+ as I'm not even sure it's really going to stroke.
You can do quick check weather your main pumps worth anything by disconnecting PRV and both NFC lines and effectively throwing pumps in to full flow mode and seeing if they will load up or even stall an engine. But you cannot do that with plugged suction or bad main relief. Your processor may have separate issues but plugged suction and return filters kinda puts everything in the same basket! So you need to take care of these things before moving off to something else.
TVA or anyone know where the pilot pressure relief valve is located?
You need pilot relief or main relief?
In 2016, another thread, geaner wrote: "could be pilot operated relieve valve' HeavyEquipmentForums So, I'm wondering if the 'Pilot operated relief valve' is in an earlier picture, or just where??
Pilot operated relief valve could be “boost” relief which is not your case, or PRV. But that machine was building up more then 3000 psi.
I don’t remember exactly but I think your pilot relief is in the solenoid block, but your pilot pressure is fine.
The main reasons is like to go after the suction is: you have to make sure that everything is good there to proceed further and because you also having problem with pressure in your processor.
Back to something that was discussed before. When diagnosing Hydraulic systems, start from where the oil starts - the tank. Then follow it through the suction, pump, PRV, controls, etc, to the business end. By eliminating possibilities in a logical manner as you go along you will get to the root cause eventually.
It’s like famous phrase of Sherlock Holmes - “ deduction Whatson, deduction!” Deduction means process of elimination! And yes - troubleshooters ARE investigators!
✓
So we have one suction filter and it was not clogged, we have two suction lines coming off the tank below that filter (apparently and I have not seen a section cut of that tank. I could stick my arm through the port where the suction filters go and feel my way I suppose I think I can reach that far and verify that the one filter feeds both suction lines.) So there is pressure at top and bottom pumps at 240 PSI with the hydraulics locked out. When hydraulics are active with the wand up, we get about 750 PSI with minimal movement on the boom and there is some movement on the forestry head but nothing much. Here is a complete list for the malfunction table for A8VO vari pumps with no or insufficient pressure. Possible cause: Faulty mechanical drive eg defective coupling Drive power too low Insufficient suction conditions, e. G. Are in the suction line, insufficient diameter of the suction line, viscosity of the hydraulic fluid too high, section height too high, suction pressure too low, contaminants in the suction line Hydraulic fluid not in optimum viscosity range External control of the control device defective Insufficient pilot pressure or control pressure Malfunction of the control device or controller of axial piston unit Mechanical damage to the axial piston unit Output unit defective eg hydraulic motor or cylinder The pump is not stroking up, right? We have adequate pilot pressure right? What are the chances that this condition is similar to the link referenced above about 7 posts ago? if there's no connection with the pressure relief then I'm back to pulling the pumps right? Is suction pressure negative pressure, a vacuum? How low is 'too low'? Can't suck more than about 29' of head, rt? One atmosphere is about 29'.So Google says that would be about -14 psi. Possible vacuum gauge check at the elbow of the large suction line? Foolish errands, rt? The pumps didn't loose their prime. My carpenter instinct tells me the pump is fine, suction is fine, but there's little pressure in all four pumps, driveline sheared. Right? Nope. Pumps, all four, will not stroke.
Piston pumps will not suck. Negative pressure, suction, will result in lots of noise and vibration from a piston pump. Piston pumps are always mounted so the height of the fluid in the tank at the lowest point is higher than the middle of the pump. Radiator type caps are used on most excavators to allow air to be sucked in but not let out unless there is more than about 14 PSI pressure above the fluid. There are many internal reasons for the pumps to not put out. I believe you have pretty well exhausted the external reasons so it appears you will have to pull the pumps and tear them down or exchange them for rebuilt.
Suction together with in tank pressure ( build up by pressure cap you just removed ) should be around 10 psi at operating temperature. Reason for that is axial piston pump are not that great at sucking their own oil, and your tank doesn’t sit a lot higher then the pump. Here’s the summary: you have four pumps - three swash plate type piston pumps which are terrible at sucking their own oil, and one gear pump which is a lot better at it! And only pump that works like it should is a gear pump. Now do the odds! It’s up to you! You can go on and check rest of a system on the machine and come back to processor later. In this case next to check would be main relief valve.
Where do you have a third piston pump? Pressure on the tanks has alway been one atmosphere above atmospheric pressure at sea level. Piston pumps don't suck. I don't have time to reread all this. What kind of processor do you have? Is there a relay box mounted in the cab with two multi-conductor cables going to the head?
The Rexroth has two and the Oil Gear has two. Yep there is, and it's a Waratah with 25" main and 18 topping chainsaws. It's the nicest chainsaw I've ever owned. I sit in the ac'd seat, press one button cuts the log the other button advances. Nice! Big trees two. 70k lb Anyway where was I, I'm going to look at the main pressure relief valve, clean up, sticky it back 'n see what happens! Here's a picture with the magnetic pickup tool pointing to the suction of the main pump which shows the fluid level below that elbow currently and I had also added several gallons of to - 2 when it first did not run. Prior to that it did not run for a couple of months due to a bad starter. The lower pump intake is to bottom right. TMI?lol
A typical logger has the two on the RexRoth and a single for grapple rotation which is usually a gear of vane pump. Then there is a pilot pump. Also of note, you should check the plumbing to the Waratah. Did they switch the arm circuits to get two pump flow or some other way? What you are showing in the photo is different than I remember for a logger running a Waratah. Can you get a photo of the whole pump compartment? You should also check to see the position of your boom and stick when checking the oil level. The level should always be higher than that intake pipe.
I couldn't say about the circuit... Here is a picture of the pump compartment and of the piping;
Now that is creative. The separate pump is where the grapple rotation pump was mounted for a logger. I can't tell from the photo is that is the old pump or someone installed something different. The plastic wrapped hose on that pump I am assuming goes to the front of the main valve and tees into that hose going to a function. Is that correct?
If you haven’t yet get that main relief out. Takes 5 minutes to check. You may not see a problem with it right away. All it takes is a spec of crap in the orifice to make it not work. You may have to completely disassemble it.
And that’s where I goofed up! The guy in the other thread ( quoted by OP earlier) was exactly right - this relief valve not direct controlled but pilot operated! And I was babbling about boost relief and PRV!!! Stupid!!!
Are you testing machine operation with the processor turned on or off? Try it both ways. The main relief will not stop operation of everything at those low pressures. Even it it were blown open the pumps have enough output to show 1,500 or more PSI on the gauges.
What comes to your processor, looks like this is your control valve bank: https://www.parker.com/literature/Mobile Controls - Europe/HY17-8546-UK_P70.pdf You can to age 16 and find illustration for item 22 named Pump unloading solenoid. Find it on your control valve and check weather you have power there! I didn’t see an LS line going to your processor but if you can see if your control valve nameplate says P70CP or P70LS?
No I was wrong! It’s either K or L series valve bank.
Looks like it should be L90sl, but that solenoid is there in head plate. And if you can please post a picture of nameplate, please?!
https://www.parker.com/literature/Mobile Controls - Europe/HY17-8546-UK_P70.pdf
all right all right all right, that's what I'm talking about, crap in the orifice. The picture shows the main relief valve with a radius piece of polished metal just visible in the orifice. The piece blew out when it's snapped shut and if I find it, I will post a picture of it. Something came apart internally from the pump probably. Alright, now who thinks this thing will stroke?? I do
Go through this one meticulously, and check the NFC reliefs also - they are the first to get crap from pumps! And put new o-rings on everything! Did that piece looked like a piece of the spring?
If it was looking like piece of a weak spring - it could have come from check valves directly upstream from Main relief valve, suggest pull them out and replace if needed.
My mechanics gold is missing! Wanted that piece, glad I took a picture of it first, stuck in the port of the relief valve then it flew out, not to be found. My first impression was 1/2" long arc of polished metal of maybe a vane...too thick for a spring. Then I fished around in the block before reinstalling the valve using a magnetic tool and found no other pieces of metal. Here's a picture of the block and on the top right the cap of the gauge there is hanging just over the main relief valve. I think tomorrow I'll kick the tires and light the fires. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen out there. Don't worry about it boss, could'a happened to anyone. -Capn' Ron
It's Alive! Mechanic's gold in port says something is coming apart in the pump. The piece pictured below is the one found in the return filter.
Looks like piece of bearing race!
And what do you mean “it’s alive”?
My phone just flat out refuses to open those small pictures on the bottom!
http://www.insanehydraulics.com/letstalk/smallbigsymptoms.html
It snorts, breathes fire and the hydraulics work
Prolly cause the file is do small? I can enlarge my screen with the two finger technique. Sorry for the trouble. Bearing race sounds like a good possibility.
What about processor?
Is this the "word to the wise"? ie, it's time for a pump rebuild? Even if we are working?
If you have seal leak - probably yes. Before it will “grenade”. But I think you can only save money when you will rebuild YOUR pump, because exchange will be the same price, no matter what condition the core is in, unless housing have a hole in it. Did you owned this one since new? Is this original pump or it was replaced before? Those pieces could have come from previous pumps catastrophic failure if this one is not original.
I'm still savoring the mains...Funny thing is, I didn't want to try, LOL! this feeling is golden and I'm not going to let it go away for a bit, just in case. And this pump rebuild talk is sobering me up.
The unit, a 1999, has worked 23,000 hours in Canada and was maintained by Finning. Perhaps they have records? The engine is strong...some hoses need replacing...whether the pump (s) needs rebuilding is a good question.
I gave all functions a tryout, it's running stronger than ever. Carrier and head work fine. Travel and swing is much faster. Nice machine... interesting to see it float across the snow as heavy as it is...
Can you get a little better pic of that piece with something else for size reference.
First, a big tip o' the hat to you Mobiltech for the correct diagnosis and saving me from pulling the pumps. And a big thanks to all with good suggestions! I appreciate all the help through this investigation. There were some questions I was asked and didn't understand how to get it done and sometimes I missed or overlooked a question. A good tip was the post from a couple of years ago that also had this identical issue. So, about the piece that was stuck in the Main Relief - that one is gone...but the mechanic's gold piece found in the return filter hints that the original piece that is deteriorating is maybe: about 21mm dia OD (+-) x 4 mm thick (+)...
More pics
I started reading through some of the posts here as I now have a better understanding of how things go, such as being told that the unloading is done hydraulically, sheesh, I am slow!! I was looking at the electric diagram and thinking that the PRV was the issue. Can't thank you guys enough, maybe there was TMI...I absolutely had to check the pressure past the pilot which when that was determined, it got me a lot farther along much quicker...Thank you TVA...John C...Nige...R20d12, rmllarue91, Bluox, newguy2k3 AND Mobiltech What I could not grasp was there was apparently zero pressure on the ports, but the gauge was not sensitive enough...with the correct gauge, it was shown there was 100 psi or so more on the mains than on the pilot. My local guy Gregg Hanson helped with the right gauge, and verifying main pressure. then I was able to check suction which was apparently acceptable, so the pump drive was bad or the plumbing downstream of that which showed the three lines from the pumps went to a common block with check valves and ONE main relief valve that was stuck open. Being cautious and not just pulling the pumps was a good call.
It looks very much like a piece of a slipper from a pump piston...? The above is not from your pump BTW, but a similar one from another model.
Can’t see on the picture, is it made a steel or brass/bronze?
Mi initial thoughts were that it looks like the taper of a JIC fitting.
It looks like a ball bearing inner race. These main pumps dont use a piston slipper . If the pumps arent noisy its probably not from main pump internals but more lilely an accessory drive bearing for an extra pump mount ed on the main pump.
Yes Mobiletech - you are right! Main ones uses gear with machined ball sockets for pistons as single unit!
The small piece is hardened steel. So question, to clarify: The axial piston variable double pump made by rexroth, A8VO And The oil gear variable displacement PVG - 075 Neither one uses piston slippers? Is there a way to get a picture of the drive coupling for how both of those pumps runoff the one PTO?
No, no slippers on Rexroth pump. I left you two links to Rexroth pages which has gear drive schematics.
Thank you Here is a model/sketch based on the piece: The piece would be a little smaller dia than a loony and thicker...and what would the hole look like, if it had one?
Does anyone knows how check valves that accompany main relief valve looks like?
Here's the main relief:
I may have missed a link...
http://hydravlica.com.ua/files/re93010.pdf Was posted by me on March 28
Finding and checking check valves is not that difficult! I suggest you do that just for the heck of it!
From the Hydro Schematic (Thanks Nige) I need to choose which from the following component list to pull and review:
I don’t think you gonna find them there, load check, check, and shuttles are not listed, need more specialized drawings. If nobody with CAT knowledge will help you by tomorrow night - I’ll try to help you. Basically they are the next components right after main relief connected to each center gallery of each bank. May look like regular socket head plugs.
Maybe it could be the base to a check valve if there was a hole in it? It does appear there were bearings running on the chamfer, so Mobiltech theory it is an inner race would be it??
It does look like the end of check valves piston used in Parker control valve that is in so many loaders and forklift and other machinery. Check valves in this application ( when both pumps close to same pressure) modulate a lot which in course of 23000 hours may lead to hardened steel fatigue and shattering .
It wouldn't be too far afield to think that's part of the main relief valve...say it broke the shoulder then stuck in the port... but I think I reviewed that as I pulled it out after sleeping on it, thinking that might have happened. I could pull it out another time as mobiltech said it only takes 5 minutes
21mm+-
Here is a picture of the main check valves. If one of them fails you would notice pressure loss when using single pump functions . I think it might be a bearing race from your auxiliary pump drive .
In this picture you posted you would have to pull the bottom left pump which is driven off the main pump by the adapter in my last post .
Is that 'bearing race' from auxiliary pump drive maybe in the ' Drive GP - auxiliary group'? (above) Or would it maybe be in the group for the pvg075? (below)
Didn’t really see the radius on the phone until I got to big screen of my PC! And your CAD drawing shows it as taper. Yes, looks like inner race of ball bearing!
The oil from that pg075 pump won’t be going to the main relief valve. The main cat pumps draw oil from the housing so it is posibble for a failed aux bearing to get picked up and sent to the main relief. Seems unlikely it would do that without causing more damage but still possible. If you want to look at the main control check valves that’s easy to do. There are 2 Allen head plugs just left of the main relief on the front face of the valve body with a check valve and spring under each one. Yet another 5 minute job to eliminate them too.
You found a piece in the main relief valve and a piece in the return filter? Think about oil flow here. If it was a bearing race from something in a pump the shrapnel would be in the case drain filter. To get a piece into the main relief it would have to bypass the case drain filter, suction screen and make it through the pump without damaging anything. The pieces would have to be from one of the pistons, barrel or further down the line. I'd look at the check valves in the main control valve at the main relief. Seems like it could fit and could end up going through a circuit and winding up in the return filter.
Main pump doesn’t have a case drain filter. Case drain on the main pump is part of supply oil to main pump and pilot pump.
I think everyone can agree that the easiest thing is checking check valves, and if they are fine - move on to something else?!
Have an Answer! I took a fourth look at the main relief valve...I think the pictures should show that the part is the shoulder of an older and replaced main relief. What do you think?
I didn't check the main control check valves under the Allens ( I checked the valves to the left)..after re-reading the advice, I wonder if I should still pull. Cat is running good.
Not all is perfect. For example, climbing a hill, the machine will stall... this is with medium high engine speed. I can hear the pumps on and the excessive load on the engine.
Hello Brian, when climbing a hill, why would you run engine "medium high"? Wouldn't wide open throttle would be the normal choice? Good luck getting this fixed, your perseverance will chase down this fault, like the look of that machine. All the best.
What is the preferred RPM to be running something like this?... often I don't run wide open... especially at first with that forestry head which took a bit to get good at, lol! I was walking some stumps and slash down instead of burning I just like to mound it and smooth it over. With all the back and forth I was not full throttle and when climbing the pile, she just stalled, so being cautious and careful, I'm hoping for your advice. Maybe the PRV is set correctly? [/Quote] Thanks!! Here's another picture, over 70,000 lbs, 45' long She can use some new decals but runs strong
Forestry heads are designed to run the best production at high idle. In addition, in order to get load sensing out of the pump you have to be at number 10 on the throttle dial.
Does a 320b have engine rpm read out in the monitor somewhere? Handbook may list high idle rpm setting 10, possibly 2100rpm on a "B"? (1850rpm on a "C"?) Running hydraulic excavator, run at specified high idle for everything except cold morning warm up (check handbook), also possibly very delicate grading around something precious could use position 7-8, everything else including running on/off lowbed= high idle. IMHO. Love that picture, post as many as you like
The engine RPM can be displayed in Service Mode -Group 10 Item 12. If you don't know how to enter Service Mode - A video on how : “ www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTKIMSH_kI8”
The hydraulic schematic shows one just like every other 300 series cat excavator I've ever seen.
320b case drain is internal and pilot pump also draws from case. You must be thinking of C and later models.
Don't want to get into an argument here, but it does have a case drain filter. In fact it has two. One standard and one an attachment, for the forestry head.
A8VO is bent axis pump and doesn’t have case drain, it has overflow port on the top of gear drive section! Rexroth requires to connect the overflow to tank only for 280CC displacement or higher. Smaller displacements recommended but not required!
Yup. No case drain for main pump on b series. When the screws from the piston slipper plate come out they usually end up in the pilot pump which draws fom case of main pump. Common failure on pumps run in cold weather with too heavy oil .
There is a case drain filter for swing motor and track motors. This machine has additional pumps for attachments which is what the other case drain filter is for .
Pulled the pressure relief valve, which is the culprit for no pressure to see about why the machine is stalling, it builds up pressure and doesn't relieve and the engine which is in good shape, will stall, worse when hot, happens at '10'.
I don’t think it’s your culprit! Your culprit is power shift maul functioning.
First pull the codes! If no codes you gonna have to verify rpm sensor and pressure sensors giving out correct information.
But before that! I’m not 100% convinced that your engine in the best shape! Especially the fuel system! Does it smocking black when stalling?
Engine Cat 3066 No smoke Starts on first crank with no starting aid When it stalls, you can hear the pumps on with pressure building. If the wand is put down quick enough, stalling can be avoided. Will ✓ on codes
No smoke indicate fuel starvation! None computer regulated diesel will produce black smoke when overloaded!
First thing I would check weather motor- governor operates as it should! Then fuel filters, banjo bolts strainers, and low side fuel pressure checks!
There is a little smoke... maybe I should have posted a bigger video. When I got the message wrong format, I made the file small and tried different extensions than mp3, mp4, turns out that we can only link, anyway, there's smoke Replaced the main prv and checked stored Error Codes: 1301 1302 1303 1304 2201 2202 2203 4103 4202 4207 4206 420c 420E 4301 A202
This thread started with no hydraulic pressure and we got the piece out of the main relief valve and now there's too much pressure
What pressure do you read when you deadhead bucket cylinder?
Have you calibrated the prv? Test the prv pressure while it’s working to make sure it’s changing the flow control signal. You could also have problems in the pump head which control flow.
The first code is a low oil pressure alarm. You always get that when you change engine oil. The next two indicate over heating of engine coolant and hydraulic oil. The 1304 code is air cleaner plugged. The three 22XX codes indicate problems with the engine throttle control. The 4103 code indicates the proportional reducer valve circuit is open. That could cause the problems that you are experiencing. The 4202 code says the engine coolant temperature sensor is shorted to ground. 4207 says the pump PWM sensor delivery pressure has an open circuit. I don't show a 4206 code in my listing. 420C is electric power too low. 420E indicates the speed dial is out of calibration. 4301 shows data mismatch between alternator and speed sensor, alternator is abnormal. A202 says the monitor takes too much time to respond to the controller signal. To clear the codes from the monitor hold the power mode and travel mode button down until the codes disappear. Try running the machine again and see which codes reappear. Start your troubleshooting from that point.
If most of the codes reappears might be loose connector or wiring harness problems
Thanks for all the help, good clues there from you all and I replaced the new PR-V with the original and it seems improved but I need to get the machine up to real temp and really kick the tires and light the fires. I would like to know how to calibrate the prv. I can get into the active code menu and the stored code menus and clear, but for example menu 10 I can't drill down into that one cuz I don't know how. would be good to know the RPM that I'm working at since this machine doesn't have the electronic throttle control connected, it's currently a throttle cable into the cab.
Why the electronic throttle is not connected ? Without the connection its never gonna work like it must
That's a good question. I asked the dealer who didn't have any information at first, then I called Fining in Canada in the province where this was operated and they said to ask my local dealer, then they read two reports in the database, one was for a 'leak'. So there's a reason why this was made into a manual control and I assume it's because the person working on it didn't know how to fix it, or didn't want to invest the time and effort so they made it into a manual thottle control and sold it. Sounds good...I'll get the codes cleared and from this point, the machine can take a test run to see if the old prv is adjusted correctly and if codes show up.
More good videos from hystat re the monitor panel, thank you @Katkc for the original link earlier. I may try the machine in 'backup' mode. He says instead of getting a proportional signal to the pumps, the pumps are given a fixed voltage to the pump prv at about 80%... something unique to Catb series.
Without electronic throttle it never gonna work like it must Prv calibration not gonna help Machine controller needs the rpm's from the electronic throttle to let it work as it should
Thanks for the support! I'm looking at getting the electronic throttle to work. Can someone tell me what Cat calls the DC motor that winds the throttle cables up and down? I do not see it in the electric schematic for the 320B LL Forest Machine, Ser# 9js00001+
It's a 1190633 motor assembly which changes part number to 2475231. Probably around $1500 to you.
Um, looking for the Engine/Pump control service manual form number SENR9291 which is listed on the electrical schematic as the pin for this machine's manual. There is a manual # SENR9291-006 available for purchase online. Would these Cat numbers be the same?
Yes. The 006 just refers to the iteration of the document. Changes between versions are usually minor.
Where online did you find it.? Were you aware that you can buy this publication online from Cat at probably the same price.?
On eBay, seller jamesh5421 wrote me: "Manual number is SENR9291-06 issued August 1998 , this is an update from the original issue SENR9291 If this is for your serial # 9JS1 I don't think it is the correct manual ." I do need all the manuals for this equipment and I've been the recipient of generous posts of diagrams from you and others online at this forum. I recall that I asked the dealer in my location for this SEnr9291 + it seemed they didn't have it but maybe my recollection is faulty, so I can try them again.
Thanks!
It looks like the service manual is $65 online and the Senr9291-06 is about $25. I don't like asking the dealer for prices.
For your Serial Number the applicable Test & Adjust manual for the engine/pump controller is RENR1998. The latest version available is -06, was last updated in 2004. There was one on eBay a couple of weeks ago @ $40 but I have no idea if it's still available.
It looks like the operation and maintenance manual is available online, but I have that one. The parts manual is available online. The service manual wasn't and the engine pump control wasn't at: https://catpublications.com/en-US/Search/TokenSearch 9js1 pin
You may have posted that earlier on another thread and that was gone. The engine pump control on a electrical schematic that you sent me shows the service manual for electrical is SEnr9291? I should look for this renr1998? Or go with senr9291-06?
SENR9291 no longer exists, which probably explians why you can't find it other than in paper format in places such as eBay. HOWEVER it appears as though Cat were less than 100% efficient at purging all references to it from other documentation such as the schematic I sent you some time ago (where it still appears). Unfortunately this type of faux pas can often send you down a rabbit hole looking for something that does not exist. I've double checked under your Serial Number prefix and all indications are that the appropriate manual is RENR1998, including the fact that I can actually see it on the system. Yeah, Cat Publications only offer Operation & Manitenance Manuals or Parts Manuals. I have no idea why. Parts Manual is XEBP7689 O&M Manual is SEBU7079
Maybe my search is faulty, but renr1998 has no results. XEBP7689 does bring up the parts manual.
You won't find RENR1998 in Cat Publications because it is a System Operation/Test & Adjust Manual. As I said above the CP web site only sells O&M or Parts Manuals and I have never been able to figure out why. RENR1998 you'll have to either order via your local dealer or try to find it on an auction site.
Thank you!! The dealer has renr1998, but it looks like it'll be over two weeks to get the manual or cd and about $125. I didn't order it yet and I'm not going to get the senr 9291-06 as it is not the right one.
Check your PMs.
Hola amigo, disculpa la pregunta,encontraste el senr9291? Lo estoy necesitando demasiado
"sorry for the question, did you find senr9291? I'm needing it too much". Hola Raul, Please can you follow the forum rules and post in English. Thank you. See my explanation for Brian above. SENR9291 no longer exists. It has been replaced by RENR1998. I suggest that you should create a new thread explaining exactly what problem you have and asking for help to solve it. When you do that please also post your machine Serial Number. This will help to find information that is correct for your particular machine.
The dealer's manual would be the one to get. I bought one off the interwebs. The manual wasn't good. Buena suerte!
That is the general experience on HEF. The knock-off manuals sold from Eastern Europe are not worth the paper they are printed on.
Consegui el PDF le falta información,pero sirve.
English please.
Hello Brian, came across your post again and wondered if you got it running good with a new throttle motor and all that? Cheers
Dang this thread is “saga”!!!
Sure is. I was rooting for you guys all the way.