Hi All Recently got a cheap e 140 then rebuilt pumps,cleaned up and finally today got to have a play with it. After about half hour i lost swing but before that right track was playing up but left seemed fine. I have an idea it has something to do with the left hand pedal thingy as it was rusted tight and i thought it was a rest only but now realise it controls track travel? i think. I would like to know should it be forward or back and i am guessing it links in with the hyd control lever off the left hand joy stick tower. They control the spool that must be a valve bypass or something and tha spool doesnt seem to be moving. If i kick the pedal hard there is a noise in the lines that join under the lift cyls. Just hoping its not a pump as the parts were Chinese. Thanks
O n further investigation i think my pilot system is playing up,the track motor relief seems dicky or the seal rings in the centre thingy but am unsure why the slew is not working. Hopefully it is a simple fix but i will let you know later. If any one has any theories please let me know.
Well pilot pressure filter blocked so cleaned and all things work quicker. Swing is electrical as wire to valve broke i just need to look at track later as i gotta go cut wood as we nearly out.
Left hand pedal was rock breaker i would guess
Rear pump blew. What a mess. what to do either demand new parts from china but i guess my chances there would be slim or look for another pump type to retro fit
How do you know it blew? You lost half of functions? Do both tracks work?
Pulled pilot pump then back plate of rear pump and just gazed at all the piston slippers and pretty bronze shavings everywhere
If both tracks work OK but functions on one joystick is dead - look for fitting inside that joystick on pilot pressure supply hose, it’s has a strainer in it, it’s probably plugged up.
Sorry to hear that!
one track and slew stopped so i swapped pump outlet hoses and it remained same track and slew but handy to know about strainer. thanks
How long that pump lasted? No overpressure issues, nobody messed with main relief valve, no overspeeding?
The thing that gets to me is only an hour on pumps. cat have no replacement parts so i bought chinese and rebuilt following cat rebuild specs so am now doubting myself and also doubting chinese parts. It turned beautifully and swash plate operated smoothly so am guessing the piston gide plate snapped and threw crap and pistons everywhere.
When you swap the discharge hoses you also need to swap control hoses.
i set at 3200 psi to begin it should of been 3800
its a daikin pump and has no control hoses like a rexroth
Was that plate new from rebuild kit?
yes new cartridge, pistons, valve plate and bearings. I cleaned tank out and poured fresh oil into tank until it came out inlet so the more i think of it the more i believe it was bad parts
Never seen Daikin pump, not sure we have them here in US. So it is delta P LS system? Solenoid controlled?
Did you filled pumps with oil through case drain port before start?
Yep i bled them as i have fitted a lot of rexroths over the years and saw how they quick they can self destruct No solenoids so must be p ls
My question was about piston guide plate, was it new from the kit or you reused old one?
just looked at invoices and yep 24 us dollars for a retainer plate pretty sure that old one self destructed. I will know more tomorrow when i strip and inspect
Sorry, I know that don’t know everything, but if there’s no control hoses and no solenoids what kind of Load Sensing system is it?
Unsure what its called but when you move a lever it senses and pressures up on demand. you set a small screw to a desired length and then a larger screw for pressure but you need to stall a cyl out to get max pressure then adjust. The track that the pump ran was a bit sticky as in it wouldnt run until the other track started and if you moved slowly it would take off but if you dumped the track levers quick the track would freewheel but not drive it was like the second or high speed worked fine once you got to it but the low speed on that track was faulty
Early rexroths load sense were the same but often hard on start up so often a timer type solenoid or soft start they called it was added they had a standby pressure of around 15 bar and top pressure around 200 bar and the standby was simply a flow precharge i guess you would call it
If pump needs a stand by pressure - than it’s working with closed center system and it is negcon LS, and have to have negcon control lines from each side of control valve to a pump regulator. The only LS system that I know that don’t have any control hydraulic lines is computer controled ( through solenoids) PD or delta P open center system. If it is a negcon and someone removed and plugged the control lines your pumps ran full flow all the time, which should have bogged down your engine if the pressure was set right. Or maybe I’m just don’t know something!
I’m not trying to argue here, I’m just trying to understand what killed your pump so fast.
No worries I am not sure what the technical name of the system is i just set the regualtors on top the pumps as the cat manual stated. All the piston slippers disintegrated and the piston guide is in little bits so when fully apart i hope to be able to diagnose what went wrong. On assembly i blew the oil holes through the pistons to check,i spent a lot of time getting the axial play within specs and the swash plate cradle also required shimming so maybe its simply faulty parts. I will come back when i know more
the engine loaded as you would expect as required whilst moving boom or stick etc but idled happily while not delivering oil
There are internal oilways from pump chamber to reg so i guess thats what the sense lines are in this system
this is it
Sorry, but it looks like you either cut this pump with oxy/acetylene torch in half or your “bleeding” strategy didn’t really worked that good! Next time try to fill the case with oil before starting, instead of bleeding.
Ok i probably fitted succesfully more piston pumps than you. It was bled and filled properly. Pistons slippers will unseat and cause problems if there is excessive case drain pressure this looks like a busted piston spacer that went through the bottom end of pump and then dislocated slippers.
Last questio: how do you explain all that black sud on the parts? I’ve seen 10000 hours pumps looking a lot better than that.
Grey paint on piston cartridge where its worn its shiny steel
OK, what about that 3 bolt end cap looking thing under the roller bearing, it’s no from this pump?
It might be just dark gasket with some crap on it, but from here it looks like soot.
I apologize then!!! Sorry!!!
Is that pump VD series or V1515?
VXD 70
Thanks!
The gasket on the round thingy is sort of shim/spacer gskt to enable swash plate to move freely the bearings mount either side without that dirty gasket the swash plate was too tight
it seems cat have a special machine to preload it all but since they cant supply parts i guess they wouldnt have that machine any longer. I did it firm with no side ways slop but still able to move swash with two fingers.
That’s why Kawasaki is better pump, one of the reasons - you don’t have to mess with bearing preload! Is a Daikin is regional thing? Because I don’t remember seeing any here in USA, talked with my friend in Europe and he never seen it either! There’s whole bunch of Daikin refrigeration equipment here though!
Can you give me the full pump number? I’m really interested in this thing!
You can get preload information from bearing manufacturer. Temperature up to 92*C
vxd-70-1-h-g daikin The digger is half mitsubishi/half cat must of been when cat just bought mitsubishi out e 140 cat or ms 140 mitsi Its the first Daikin pump i have seen or heard of. Local cat rebuilt this pump some time back maybe five to ten years back and charged the guy 15 k then
See if you can get Tong Myung parts for it, they seem to be OK price/quality wise.
And another thing - I don’t think that number is a Daikin ( at least i couldn’t find it ). See equipment manufacturers change numbers on a name plates to their own code, so when you need a component you can’t just order one from original manufacturer, they want you to come to their dealer so they can make a buck out of you. But I did saw reference to Komatsu about this pump.
My friend saw the picture of the parts and he said that it looks exactly like old Sauer Danfoss series 20 pump. I read that Sauer Danfoss had cooperation agreement with Daikin for many many years!
Thanks very much for that. I have been in touch with original Chinese company that sold me the parts to see if they will replace at their cost but even if they do i would still be hesitant as am now unsure of their quality. What would be best sauer or Tong Myung. It all bloody costs oil,filters ,time etc and you are always worried till you get at least a hundred or two hours on it.
I don’t know if any of those suppliers carry the parts, you’ll have to check with them! I amagine that Sauer Danfoss will be more expensive but higher quality. Check with Komatsu about this pump too.
front pump was wearing through where slippers fit on to piston. I guess the back pump wore through much quicker. So any ideas of the cause?
Does it have a lot of slop in that spherical joint?
How does the swash plate and bottom of the shoes look?
Shoes look OK slight scuffing on bottom plate no slop in spherical thing but maybe too much clearance between separator and piston slipper perhaps something out of balance looks to be chattering until it cuts slippers off
These kinds of damages usually caused by high inlet to case pressure differential ( vacuum ) combine with highe case pressure. See I don’t really agree that high case pressure alone will do it ( aside from damaged seals ) because case pressure is everywhere inside that pump and do not create any additional kinetic forces, that’s the difference in pressure that reeks havoc.
Unless it springs from cartridge that preloads bronze which in turn preloads slipper thrust onto plate therefore oil leakage at slipper bottom forcing up when intake and chattering. I reckon that what it may be. I gotta sleep so check back later
That retainer pushes against tha swash plate by the sphere on the piston barrel? The problem could be not enough axial force to retaining ring. Yep! And I don’t have it here but look and see if the too thick of a gasket under that three bolt bearing holding end cap might be a problem, plus aftermarket cartridge/ barrel/ cylinder block can be too short.
You see not enough force to the retaining ring not really an issue unless you have vacuum in inlet section, because piston shoes gets pushed against the swash plate by system pressure, but when they go to suction side that’s another story! Is there any cavitation marks? Anyway you really need to check out the suction strainer, hose and the whole passage, and return filter, case drain hoses! And also check pressurizing valve on top of the tanks breather!
Also the subtle one - low lubricity and overall quality of fluid!
I thought about it and decided that I was wrong: we do have pressure differential with high case pressure - when pistons on the suction side! And it does contribute to a shoe lift, but combined with vacuum on suction side makes it REALLY bad!
Just saw it on your piston the circular wear marks on your pistons ( instead of longtitudonal scratches) and those wear bands on your shoes made by bore walls of retaining ring shows me that your piston and shoes were rolling in their axis, they all roll but this looks bad.
And another question: are these two pumps have a dedicated passage for case flow, did that passage was obstructed by anything? And in case that there is no passage - could it be that shaft seal was installed between tha pumps. Are these pumps were coupled “following” each other or back to back. Back to back means that one is supposed to turn CW and another CC, i this case two different valve plates were supposed to be ordered because on the open loop pumps the suction side kidney is longer than the pressure side. Having it backwards not gonna hinder the performance of pressure side but it will somewhat obstruct the suction side.
Had outlet plates correct but rear destroyed pump not have dedicated case drain hose but front pump does I thought they maybe inter connected but maybe they not so rear pump drain would have to pass through two bearings to get out
The so there’s no dedicated passage? The seal thing happened before so it’s real! My friend did it, big duffus installed the seal between two pumps!
The rolling of pistons indicates concave/convex of swash plate or not enough load on retaining ring, or both.
I cleaned suction straight strainer and tank but oil very water contaminated when I got it.. Spec says 200litre capacity I refilled approx 100 litre and run 45 mins was going to redrain and refill as engine oil15!!30 was used.but pump goes pop before I did.perhaps strainer reblocked from return oil quickly I think breather| pressurizer. No seal between pumps just two bearings to get through
Breathers us causing condensation also was next job to do before this catastrophe happened
About the breather check if it is not OVER pressurizing, with water in oil - if it was like that for longer time then look out for hard deposits in small strainers, like inlet fittings at joysticks and travel valves.
Most of the cases look at design of filler and return filter caps, if they sit below the surface- check for broken or wrong size O-rings. But desiccant breather is a good idea but pricey.
Fillers all high but replaced one o ring already around ret filter housing will drain tank and check strainer recheck all pump inlet in case of cav if water in oil does this increase or decrease viscosity increase I would guess and water would block fine strainers I imagine
Six springs in cartridge preloads bronze ball which spacer for pistons sits under so maybe a concoction of faults with oil springs and strainer all helping each other but 45 mins is quick to blow a pump I would think
I don’t know exactly why but water in hydraulic oil causes hard deposits in smal crevices and airation causes jelling. Your problems with pilot controls might be caused by hard deposits in turn caused by water in oil.
I fixed pilot just before pump blew dirty relief and blocked pressure filter
Found problem some nice person set me up
Are you sure you didn’t orget that when you was there last time?
That was joke, for some reason would not add smileys!
BTW I have family in Adelaide!
You see those black specks in the filter? If those hard - that’s because of water in oil. I bet there was a lot more of it the first time you cleaned out!
I lived there for a bit it not a bad place.I sort of relieved that a cause is found but angry that some one put it in.I will have to grill the kids .specks were hard and a lot more of first time I cleaned. Well thanks for all your wisdom I did learn some.
Ever heard whitesnake sing here i go again Pump has blown again rear again some pics in this thread to check if you are interested Any info appreciated but as i said on the tracks thread i reckon definite case pressure caused but i wont strip pump for a day or two and will know more then. Since last rebuild i used around 200 litres of fuel .