Pretty much the description says it all. I can't seem to find anything in the manual on how to set up the hydraulics for a thumb. All it really shows me is "tool selection" Help Please!
You should probably start with a serial number. I believe the C model excavators have the auxiliary value but many machines also have tool control which makes the install and set up a lot different.
here is the Product Identification Number *CAT0325CPCRB01305*
Also it shows 5 different tool controls on the machine. I have talked to 2 different cat dealers today and nether have a good answer but one said that machine came with no AUX controls and it must of been added later. There is a added peddle sliding around on the floor which i some how finally got to do something. (IT wouldn't do anything before when i pushed on it) It pressurizes one of the AUX lines.
Do you have Work Tool Flow Control Mode installed on your particular machine..? See attachment.
It does not have a switch to switch one way or 2 way. Only for 1 or 2 pumps.
Tool control is handled through the software. You can change the system for what attachment you have installed by going into the monitor panel and selecting it. If you have tool control you will see a bunch of extra piping and big rectangular blocks mounted behind the boom. A photo of that area would help us identify it.
There's the lines. Same valve and line on both sides. There is also 2 smaller lines behind the bucket cylinder for the quick attach that came with the machine. Any chance a guy could use the quick attach lines to run a thumb?
There usually isn't enough flow to run a thumb from the quick attach lines. The big lines on the sides of the stick are usually what is used. Any chance you could take a photo of the area behind the boom. A photo of the main control valve and the swing motor area would be helpful.
The excavator had the 3rd pedal installed in the cab when it left the factory. That pedal is common whether the tool system is 1-way or 2-way as far as I can see. Johin, am I correct in thinking that if the excavator in question is not equipped with a 2-way flow switch (LH switch below) then only one-way attachments can be used on it..? That would rule out a thumb as far as I understand it. As I understand the OP from his reply in post # 6 he only has the RH switch that allows him to select the option of one pump or two, but he does not have the LH switch for selecting 1 or 2-way flow.
What you are showing in I think is true if the machine came from the factory set up that way. I don't have access to SIS anymore so can't look up the machine. Total tool control can be added to the machine at the dealer level but in my area I haven't seen that. The Cat rental units in this area have it. If it has total tool control the two way switch is supposed to be in there and shifted through use of the software. I haven't looked at a machine that had rocker switches like shown in the photo. Out here adding attachments is a big aftermarket business as it is a whole lot less expensive than what the factory charges. That's why I asked for a photo of the valve and swing motor area of the excavator. It's pretty easy and common to install a manual three way valve to get two way hydraulics. It is also very common to see machines set up different between other geographic areas of the US.
John, that illustration came right out of the O&M Manual for the OP's Serial Number machine. I'm assuming it's what is actually in the cab as he never commented "mine doesn't look like that" or anything similar ........
I drove 30 miles just to get the pics. I made sure to get a bunch haha
More pics since i can only upload 4 per message.
4 More.
4 More.
4 More.
4 More.
Last 4
Post #14 shows the starboard side hose running back to the tank and not having a three way valve, manual or electric. Apparently you can only run motor functions on the auxiliary side. Your machine does not have total tool control.
I don't know boat terms and had to google that lol But the hose on the right side of the arm is the side that gets pressurized when you hit the peddle on the floor. I couldn't really get a pic of it but it runs around behind all them valves and plums back into them on the backside. Nether hose goes back to the tank.
I don't recall any function hoses connecting behind the valve. If it is back there it likely connects to the hydraulic oil cooler. The starboard hose would be on the side of the hydraulic tank. All the units from the factory and all that were plumbed by the dealer in my area put the pressure hose for a breaker/compactor on the side of the cab. If you do have something different and the tank side hose does pressurize, then you only have a one way set up on your controls. It would likely just need someone to check out the software or you might have to add a two way control control valve. I don't think so though because you have the fancy handles with the proportional rockers. The wiring and valve are likely already in place. You should call your Cat dealer and ask them some questions. Maybe they sold it and put it together.
This is how it was originally shipped when new in 2005.
I don't see on the line sheet where the extra plumbing and the two pump flow modification was added?
Yeah, someone’s been at it since it was built, even if it was only to add the auxiliary lines down the side of the boom.
Back in post #4 i explained what 2 cat dealers told me. My guess this machine came from another state based on the seller we bought it from said he got it out of state. I can also believe fairly easily things was not done normal since the manual thumb you see in the pic does not actually fit the machine and is rated for up to 45,000lb machine. I think one of the past owners probably pieced this and that together a bit and or went the cheap rout. So it seems as tho the idea of adding the right size hydraulic thumb is going to end up more then it is worth. For the kind of money needed for the valve plus the hydraulic thumb and have a cat dealer come out is probably pretty close to the cost of a grapple that don't use the AUX lines and only the bucket tilt cylinder to open and close. I did gain another question tho. What are them valves in the pics on my posts #18 and #19? They look like they was added later?
You can trace the hoses on the valve mounted above the pump and I'm guessing they go to that auxiliary function. I would guess one of the ones mounted on the floor is for the two pump function and the other might be for two speed travel of something. As far as not worth the cost, everyone I know that resisted a hydraulic thumb would never have a machine without it after they got one. It will pay for itself in a hurry.
The peddle all the way to the right on the floor is for both tracks to run the same speed forward or back. The peddle to the left that is not mounted and only 1 way runs the AUX. A grapple would work better for what we need to do. Wipe out trees and handle some scrap iron. We are not a construction company. Just need a bunch of stuff cleaned up at the farm. We borrowed a excavator earlier this year with a hydraulic thumb and it really was only helpful to get the thumb up to push the dirt back into the root hole of a tree. Witch we could still do with a grapple. At lest the type we are looking at. Just figured a hydraulic thumb might be the cheaper way to go. But at the cost of 6k for a hydraulic thumb plus buying valves, having cat come out and figure out this mess and having to cut off that undersized thing that is on there VS about 10k for a new grapple and knock a few pins around and we are moving trees. Less down time and a better working tool for about the same cost as i see it. We do have the quick attach for this machine so we can swap back to the bucket for digging pretty easy. The last owner pulled the quick attach off thinking that short thumb might actually work then. Nope it is still to short.
You seem to be able to find all the details. Are you able to get any more details on this valve from its part number?
That valve was only ever used on the 315. It looks like someone has been "bush engineering" prior to you buying the machine. See attached.
Yea it looks like a few things was done with "bush engineering" on this machine lol But knowing what was done may become very important in the future if we ever need to do a repair on something. I am also very interested to know how that valve works and why the lower port on it has a block off plate. Being very ignorant about these valve systems but know enough about other hydraulics i wonder if that blocked off port would be for running a 2 way cylinder. If not still a good thing to know what it does or don't do since it is not something normally on this machine. The rest of the machine i am sure is in the repair manual but a odd ball valve never meant for this machine surly wont be in the repair manual.
Sorry I never really looked too close at the photos. I wonder if in an attempt to add an extra function someone has replaced one half of the original main control valve from the machine with the 171-0140..? 171-0140 contains seven spools, each half of the "correct" valve for your machine has five.
I'm thinking that is the tag seen on the auxiliary valve. If so I think it fits most of the mid size machines. The hose coming out of that valve is going down the cab side of the boom indicating it is the supply to what ever function they were trying to run. The cap just below that hose would be the other side of that circuit if it was set up for two way function. The hose on the tank side disappears behind the main control valve and I'm sure is going to the hydraulic oil cooler. I don't know why it would stiffen when you energize the valve. There are other hoses in those photos of the valve I don't recognize so I don't know just what all was going on with the machine. In any case you have enough stuff on there to give you plenty of options for attachments should you wish to spend the money to install them.
In this photo the far right valve is the one with the tag on it. Where the return seems to actually be coming into.
It not only stiffens but really pulls down the engine. I wouldn't think a oil cooler could handle such pressure and it has a 90* elbow back there going into the back of a valve. I will try to make a better attempt next time i am out by the machine to get a pic and show which valve it is hooked to. Things really get tight on the backside of them valves lol
Can you find any sort of tag on the main control valve directly inboard of the "add-on" one..?
I will look the next time i am out where the machine is. Should be out there tomorrow some time.
If I can stick my oar in a little. I believe the part number on the tag is 1710146 which is for an auxiliary valve which does fit this machine, but has been added later. The main control valve is essentially two separate valves, left and right, which each receive flow from one pump. The standard auxiliary valve is on the left section, fourth from the left (looking towards the engine). Now if we look at post #17, photo 2 we can see a line from the standard auxiliary valve crossing over and combining with the line from the added valve on the end ot the right section. I therefore deduce, Watson, that someone has added the 1710146 valve and crossover line to get one-way two-pump flow, probably for a hammer. It should be fairly easy to get two-way one-pump flow by removing the crossover line and plumbing directly into the standard auxiliary valve. Retaining the option of having two-pump flow would be more tricky, but that wouldn't be needed for a thumb.
Well i hope you are right! If you are what switch's direction of flow tho i wonder? And being John C keeps stating normally the line on the cab side is the pressure side that would make sense for the 2 pump worth of flow since that side has 2 lines running into 1. Some reason this machine is pressurizing the side not next to the cab. This leaving me thinking maybe they have it plumbed as John C stated and some how i am getting reverse flow from what he stated thus making me think there might very well be a way to run both ways only the 1 way i would have 2 pumps worth of flow and the other way 1 pump worth of flow. I think i need to find for sure what valve that line runs into on the back side and maybe play with switches in this machine. Maybe one of them possibly marked wrong and actually switches flow direction??? Worth trying i think. If not then see how as you said Cmark that line should be plumbed into just the 1 valve 4th from the left. Or is that cross over line already plumbed into the correct place on that 4th valve from the left?
If the line away from the cab is getting pressure, then yes, find out where on the MCV it goes to. You may be right, it could have two way flow and maybe just needs turning on. Have you checked the tool control options in the monitor? If you were starting from scratch and fitting two way aux for a thumb, you would simply run the two lines into the two ports on the fourth valve. Is the crossover line correct? I would say it looks like a pretty kosher installation, probably done by a Cat dealer, so you would have to assume it is correct for what it was designed for.
I have played with tool control a bit but all i can do is select 1 thru 5 and all of them just say AUX. Non says the name of a attachment. I tried 2 different passwords but non get me any further then selecting 1 thru 5. My manual don't show any more then how to select tool and tells me to contact dealer. I have searched this forum and found other cat machines having more menus but i can not find them in my machine. As of right now "no tool" is selected and that is how i got the line to pressurize pushing on the peddle sliding around the floor. Maybe next time i will try a video to show just what i see and just what happens with what. Maybe that make life easier.
My bad. I couldn't identify the last digit from the tag so I started searching from 171-0140 prepared to use anything from 0-9. I thought I'd hit pay dirt when 0 came up as a good number for a control valve. I never checked anything after that. At least thanks to Chris we're on track.
I've been dabbling a bit more in this today. I'm now pretty sure that we have a (dealer installed?) system 3 (1 or 2 pump, one-way flow) with the optional electrical foot switch. What isn't clear from SIS is whether the pilot lines which make both the standard aux valve and the 1710146 aux valve move in the other direction, are installed as default. If they are, it may be relatively easy to get two way flow with a solenoid valve and software change. Or, on the other hand, it may not. But either way, it IS possible. bigcam, are you actually sincere about making this work, even if it means some serious effort and/or expense? I mean absolutely no offence, but I and others have previously put many hours of research into peoples' problems on this site for them to turn out to be just tyre kickers.
High cost no because we will be getting close enough to the price of a grapple that wont need AUX hydraulics. The way we see it is if the stuff is there to make it work we will. If we must spend thousands of dollars to have a hydraulic thumb we might as well go buy a grapple move a few pins and be done. The only worth while to us of having the hydraulic thumb is save money. So if we start talking about spending thousands of dollars that is the time to quit and we will put a grapple on it. We don't "need" it ready until probably next year to start pulling out trees. We don't like to be behind so we get stuff done ahead of time and have it ready when needed. By next year we will surly know what is going on this machine. No i wont take offense to you asking that question. I have been on many forums over the years and helped lots of people just for them to up and change there mind or have a different plan in mind already. So I have laid it out how we feel about it above. It does take time and effort to help people and i appreciate every bit of help every one of you have given. I must also add you guys on this forum are of the few that actually dig in and help anymore. Many other forums people just wont help anymore and tell you to "search for it" Even know you have searched for hours for the info already and couldn't find it. Which i did search several hours several different nights before joining this forum and asking the question. Just nothing really comes up in searching for this machine. Again I really appreciate all of you that have helped and i thank you. You guys remind me of why i liked the forums so much back in the day. So If/when we find we will need to spend thousands just say so and we wont spend no more time on it. If the stuff needed or at least the costly stuff needed is on the machine lets make it work. A couple hydraulic hoses is no big deal to buy or little stuff like that. I will admit i can't sit and turn wrenches on the machine every single day. I have my own business to run out side of grandmas farm this excavator is for and helping grandma get a new house put in. But i will be out there some time today and try to get a video taken.
OK I see where you're coming from. Here's what I see as the next steps but other opinions welcome. 1. Take a look at the tool settings in the monitor. Try passwords 0001 or FFF2. 2. Follow the non-cab side line back as previously mentioned. 3. Do the two auxiliary valves have pilot lines going in to the bottom ports?
What settings am i looking for? Last time i was in there i couldn't find a way to do anymore then just select 1 thru 5. I tried both of them passwords last time.
OK. Are you ready to dive down the rabbit hole of Cat HEX work tool troubleshooting, because it's a pretty steep learning curve and I've got a metric shitload of information to share. Try this for a start. More to follow.
Ok first thing I am wrong on 2 things. JohnC is right the CAB side line is the one that pressurizes when you hit the peddle. Yea now i feel pretty dumb. What was going on is when i let off the peddle the right line would move for some reason? Vibration transfer maybe? IDK. But the left side line by the cab is the pressure side. Now my other mistake is i had to look threw the side panel to see behind the valves before and thought that right line went to a valve but no that is actually a different line. The right line goes to another block i will call it that has more then one hose going to it and from there looks like return. Boy do i feel dumb. I pulled the top cover off to see back there better so that makes a heck of a difference. I should of done that before and i am sorry. For you Cmark 1 I still could not find any tool settings and i made a video just give me time to upload it. 2 Look at my dumb mistake above 3 Yes i see pilot lines on the bottom of both and i will get that video uploaded as well. And for the last question you asked Nige No i didn't find a tag on the other valves. I must be blind or something.
What we are trying to tell you is that you already have the auxiliary valves installed. You already have the pilot controls installed. You can do anything you want with little expense compared to starting from scratch. You mention a grapple. Does it have rotation? You could do a clamshell. Nether tool is worth a lot with out rotation and you already have the aux valves in place to do anything you want. Likely all it would take is a phone call to a dealer to get an idea of price.
Well I already made 6 calls to dealers last week and only got to talk to 2 of them and them 2 gave me little to no info and 1 of them told me to call a different dealer and that dealer i left a message with the person they said i needed to talk to and still have not got a call back lol In all honesty you folks have been way more helpful then any dealer. At this point it seems like you said everything is there we just need to rearrange things and we have it. My guess the next steps are 1 pick a AUX valve to use and hook the right AUX line to the open port. 2 Find what pilot valve controls the 1 and 2 pump flow. 3 rearrange the pilot lines so my 1 and 2 pump flow changes to cylinder in and out direction change. 4 put my cylinder on the machine for the thumb and set the pressure relief valves to not blow it apart! 5 Thank you guys with the biggest thanks i can give. 6 Find a way i can pay you guys back for the help. 7 rip out a few thousand trees, tear down several buildings, load a few truck loads of iron and trash. Just to give a idea i have already hauled over 30 loads of trash and tires. Plus 3 loads of tree branches. we are hauling with a 20ft long dump truck. With that much moved you can hardly tell i did anything yet! That was done with my skid steer. Really slow going with a old smaller machine from the 60s or 70s. For the grapple no we was not looking at one with rotation. Al tho we could now. But with the little cost it seems this will take to have the hydraulic thumb we might as well save that money for something else and use a hydraulic thumb. To save more money I have bought some steel to make this thumb long enough for this machine and i have a cylinder off another backhoe i think i will use to move the thumb.
I'm confused about you comparing a grapple to a hydraulic thumb. Both will need two way hydraulics. What's the difference? Anyway, here's some more bedtime reading. I think the schematic on page 7 is closest to your machine.
This type https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-54-Hea...132633578860?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10 No need for AUX hydraulics. Or like these where both sides open and close just off the bucket cylinder. http://www.rocklandmfg.com/index.php?page=h23-severe-service-excavator-grapples Heres a video of something similar. . Here is a smaller version that really gives you a close up look of how both sides open and close.
Oh, I see. Fair enough. I'll be off line for the next 48 hours or so. Going bush.
Well guys it has been some time and other things took up all my time to finish this project but we are back at it! I got the thumb extended and now with the help of you guys and dad we pretty much have everything found and figured out down to just the hoses and pressure relief. So i hope you guys are willing to help me finish? Really didn't plan for it to take so long. Anyways my questions are: 1 how do i set the pressure relief on the AUX valve at the one end of my valve bank? Looks like just a jam nut and a large set screw but i want to be sure if that is the correct way and which way turning it does what? I assume threading setscrew out would lower pressure? I have a hydraulic gauge. I need to lower it for my cylinder rating. 2 will a code 62 flange bolt right up to my AUX valve on the end of the valve bank? If i buy both code 62 pieces? 3 does the pressure relief also relieve pressure when not activating that valve? example if i grab to hard with the bucket will the thumb cylinder get over pressurized or will the relief just release the over pressure and allow the cylinder to move rather then blowing things up?
Well i must have scared everyone off. Either way it is hooked up and working as 2 way. Now just need to set the pressures.
So the way it works is there is a main relief valve that controls maximum pressure on every circuit so all circuits relieve at the same pressure. (There are exceptions and a main relief valve with two or more settings depending on the circuit in use isn't uncommon, but that's beyond the scope of what we're doing here) Each hydraulic cylinder circuit will also have two "Line Relief" valves, one for each direction. The line relief valve's job is to open if the cylinder control valve is in neutral and the cylinder comes under excessive external force, thus preventing structural damage. (Once again there are exceptions. Not all cylinders will have a line relief, but most will.) The line relief valves pressure will be set above the pressure of the main relief valve meaning that the line reliefs only operate in an overload situation. This is where it gets tricky. With a thumb, you will have the thumb cylinder and bucket cylinder pushing against each other. Depending on the cylinders' effective area and linkage geometry, one cylinder will be able to overcome the other and open its line relief which isn't a desirable situation as this will create heat. This means you have to set the thumb cylinder head-end line relief to a pressure that isn't so low that it opens all the time when working, and isn't so high that the bucket will bend the thumb before the thumb cylinder retracts. TLDR; The aux valve will have two line reliefs, one on top, one bottom. Adjust the one for the head-end of the thumb cylinder so it has enough force to be effective but not so much that the bucket can't push the thumb back before structural damage occurs.
Thank you Cmark. I know most of what you said. My lack of knowledge is how that pressure relief works as in what way do i turn what to raise and lower the pressure? And how do i know if i have and set the over pressure relief so the bucket can push the thumb back? Obviously I only need to mess with the AUX valve. Also i learned that AUX valve has code 61 flanges which are only rated for 3000psi. So i shouldn't blow everything up right away while testing as i would assume the AUX valve should already be set to 3000psi or less. But i need to be somewhere around 2500psi for the rating of my cylinder. I do have the service manual on its way. WOW what a costly pile of paper lol But if you or anyone knows the details of turning what does what on the reliefs i could get that part set now rather then waiting a few more weeks for a expensive pile of paper. There is photos of the AUX valve earlier in this thread. Im using the added on AUX valve at the left of the valve bank. Im not going to use it till i know the pressures are right.
Generally, turn in to increase pressure, out to decrease. You can really only set it by trial and error. Start with it out so the bucket can easily push the thumb back and gradually turn it in until you think you have enough clamping force but the bucket can still overcome the thumb.
Thank you. We got them set lower yesterday. 2500psi for clamping and 1900psi to release thumb. Didn't plan a number but hit 1900psi and figured that should release the grab more then well enough ha. Does the overload portion come down in pressure with the main pressure adjustment or is there a separate adjustment for the overload? So the bucket can push it back without bending things.
Main pressure relief and line reliefs are completely separate. Don't touch the main relief valve as this affects all systems. As I mentioned, line relief pressure should always be set higher than main relief, except in very specific circumstances such as this one. What you are effectively dong is using the thumb close line relief as a main relief, which is not really its job. If you were to constantly hold the thumb closed overcoming the line relief, it would quickly get hot. However as the thumb only gets occasional use, it is considered OK.
Ok i worded that wrong. Not the machines main relief but the AUX valves line relief. I set it to 2500psi. Will it automatically bring the overload relief as in the bucket pushing the thumb pressure down or do i need to adjust that separately?
Yes, what you call the overload relief is the line relief. The line relief sees the pressure at the cylinder all the time, whether or not the cylinder is being actuated. You have set the pressure, using the line relief, at 2500psi when the thumb is being closed. That means that if the thumb control valve is in neutral and an external force tries to open the thumb, line relief is going to open when the pressure goes above 2500psi. If you're curious as to if it's working OK, you will need to tee in a pressure gauge to the hydraulic line to the thumb. Push the thumb open with the bucket and you should see the thumb move at 2500psi.
Perfect just what I needed to know thank you. I probably made that more confusing then it needed to be lol Sorry about that. I broke the brace a couple days ago for the manual thumb so I really need to get the hydraulic cylinder on there now. Thanks for all your help! How could i repay all of you?