Does anyone have photos of starters wiring? Especially looking for for wires on both solenoids. Machine ser# 29Y0700. Has a new CAT battery. Starter bad. Had it rebuilt by reputable shop. Will only barely turn engine for 1/2 a second. I am going to replace both battery cables with 2/0 new cables,plus the ground on the bell housing. In the picture of the starter the positive wire is not connected to the solenoid. I can post more pics if needed. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
Have you tried turning the engine over manually.? Is there a possibility that you nhave a hydraulic lock.? Lost any coolant recently.?
Nige, yes I have turn the engine over by hand without any problem. No,coolant loss that I am aware off. Also, before the starter went bad, the engine would instantly start. Thanks for your input.
Sorry I misread your "1/2 second" as half a turn and the first thing that came to mind was the possibility of a hydrolock. I don't know what anyone else thinks but surely if the motor wiring was connected wrong then it would either go up in smoke when powered up or simply not turn at all.? Have you tried testing with a meter across the battery terminals when attempting to crank.? What happens to the battery voltage.? Sorry can't help with photos I'm afraid.
Sounds familiar you sure something isn’t loading the engine? Maybe try holding it in bucket raise when trying to start
The picture is either deceiving, or it looks to me that it has tiny cable on the starter positive terminal. In post #1 you state you are putting new 2/0 cables on. Maybe send some pictures of them on, and a picture of your battery box cables once changed. Nice to see size of your batteries. Simon C
Yes, the pic shows the 2 small wires. One from the wiring harness (I assume from the ignition switch)and one from the small solenoid over to the big solenoid positive post. The main positive wire is not connected to the solenoid in that pic. Will do,once the new battery cables are on. Thanks
Wouldn't pulling back the loader lever to raised position put a load on the engine because of engaging the hydraulic pump? Would make more sense to put the lever in float? Thanks
The thing i was getting at was giving hyd oil some place to go I'm sure pressure to lift a mt bucket is less than main relief. any function will do that as long as is not at end of stroke. Used to run to no start in 416's every once and a while we would just reach around and pull a leaver on the hoe and it would start right up
There may be a fusible link on one of the small wires at the starter. I think my 931B had one but can't remember for sure. The wire with the green connector looks suspect and may be where a fusible link was/is. If I recall I cut it shorter and it was just long enough. I had a wire rub and short in the harness that comes down from the dash that goes to the other side of the firewall. Of course it was on the bottom right where a wiring clamp with all the wires bolted on. Have you tried shorting the big connectors at the solenoid to see if it turns over better? Having had to take my starter out and put it back in too many times I can sympathize with you. To say it's a PIA is an understatement. Having to do it with the loader down you invent a whole new series of curse words!
Welder Dave, the wire with the green plug connects with the small solenoid. plugs into the harness wire that is hot when the key is turned to start position. I have become WAY to familiar with 931b starter R&R. I did find that it's possible to R&R from the top side by removing the hydraulic return line and left front engine mount. It's still very tight but better than going out the bottom. With the rebuilt starter I also have a new CAT battery and up graded to 2/0 cables including the ground from the frame to bellhousing. Not sure why but, the rebuilt starter would bench test fine. I also hooked up all the wiring and used a jumper cable to ground on the starter flange to the battery. The starter was not installed, merely sitting on the tracks. Turning the key and starter worked fine 4 times.So, i installed the starter. Turned key and nothing. The wire that runs from the key switch to the small selenoid immediately go HOT. Which i don't understand. I was thinking bad ground since it ran fine when just attached to the machines wiring. So, i attached a short ground cable to one of the lower starter bolts and ran a jumper cable from the battery ground to the short ground on the starter bolt. NO JOY! I now am into a whole other ordeal in getting my 931b started. Removing rebuilt starter and replacing with new Denso starter. Will be doing that 03/10/25. Wish me luck! Comments and suggestions ALWAYS APPRECIATED!
I'd be talking to the shop that rebuilt it before spending more money on a new starter. Maybe a sticking solenoid? If the one wire is getting hot could be shorting or be too small of wire. If it bench tested good kind of leans towards a wiring problem on the machine. Might not be getting full battery power to the starter. The smaller wires from the starter button could be suspect. I have a larger piston pump on my 931B which would make it hard if not impossible to remove the starter from the top. Also wouldn't want to take hyd. lines to the pump off and drain the reservoir. It's a 2 man job and not fun no matter how it comes off or goes back on. If you ever have to pull the engine and trans. Leave the oil filter off when putting the engine and trans. back in. There's maybe a 1/4" clearance and real easy to dent the filter.
Okay, finally found the problem. Removed the rebuilt starter. Hooked it up to the machines wiring harness just to bench test it again. Turned the key and the starter turned fine. Hmmmmmmm, what the heck is going on here. Okay, on to the new starter install for now.. It dropped right in from the top side with the return hydraulic hose removed. Got it bolted in and hooked up the battery cable and selenoid wires. The moment of truth! Turned the key and it fired right up. JOY,JOY,JOY! Turned out when the original starter was rebuilt the small selenoid had a higher mounting bracket which caused one of the selenoid terminals to contact the frame and short out when the key was turned to start position. Hence the reason the ignition wire on the selenoid got hot and the starter not to work. Had the selenoid bracket held the selenoid closer to the starter all would have been good from the first rebuilt starter install. LOL. THE END.
Glad you got it fixed but had to be expensive getting the starter rebuilt and buying a new starter. The ND starter is a very tight fit and I recall an issue with the top solenoid having no wiggle room.
If I recall you can't remove the solenoid if you want to have it checked and you can't leave it off when installing the starter.
Yes, the original starter is very tight fit, but I never gave it a thought about once it was rebuilt that a terminal on the small selenoid would poke through the rubber boot and ground out on the frame because of a slight difference of the height of the selenoid mounting bracket. Plus where the starter sits is almost impossible to see down along the frame where the selenoid boot was contacting the frame. It's all a learning lesson and as we all know learning lessons cost you time and money. It's up and running, so that's a good thing. Breaking down the tracks now to replace track adjuster seals. 3A
I think you have a piston pump but the hose connections are a little different than mine. Both of mine use a flange mount on the pump. The top pressure hose is a 4 wire hose and makes a loop across the firewall. It's a pain to replace because it's so stiff. I had to replace it but used 2 hoses to make it easier. Why I think you have a piston pump is because you have backhoe mounts on the back. Extra grab handles on the ROPS are missing though. The piston pump was offered when a backhoe was fitted. I'm not sure if it was standard with a backhoe or not or if a backhoe could be dealer installed?? It was either 26 or 26.5 GPM instead of the standard 23 GPM gear pump. Is there a hyd. temp gauge on the right side beside the seat? Being a piston pump makes it somewhat load sensing when using the backhoe. It's a very expensive pump so if you lose hydraulics shut the machine off quick to avoid damaging it. You're machine must have had a 4 in 1 bucket at one time too. That's what the lines on the loader boom are for. Your machine was speced. the same as mine except yours has the 3F/3R transmission while mine only has a single speed reverse. The idlers look to be counterweighted for use with a backhoe too but can't be positive. Another thing I'm not sure you have is the 300lb. sprocket counterweights. They are very useful when there is nothing on the back of the loader. Lifting wet clay the loader feels a little tippy. I'm jealous of the nice paint. My machine being a 1986 (improved 931B) has some minor improvents over your machine which is an early 1980. Longer lift arms for a higher dump height and maybe 37 link tracks instead of 36 but I'm not sure when the longer tracks came. They're all good machines though... except for working on.
Thanks for the info. Always nice to learn something. Years ago i had bought a 935C with 400 hours on it. That machine was pristine. You taught me a few things about this loader. I does not have the rear sprocket weights. It does have 36 links on the tracks.I was told by the previous owners son in law that it was an 86, but he really didn't know much about the machine. I do have a question about the track adjuster seals. The one in the barrel. Do you know what direction it goes? Groove towards the rear of the machine away from the steel ring or groove up against the steel ring? Thanks for the info and help.
Those look like wiper seals. I think the groove would face forward to keep dirt out but I'm not absolutely sure. A pic. of the adjuster parts might show the orientation. If you go on the A V spares sites there might be a pic. My 931B is an 86.
Dave, I should have mentioned that is the seal that is back in the barrel on the pressure side of the track adjuster rod. I was thinking the groove would be towards the grease side? Does that make sense. The wiper seal mounts in the head. Pic of head with wiper seal. Not pressed into the head yet.
I resealed my adjusters but it was a long time ago and I can't remember which way that seal went. Maybe you could start a new thread and ask. More people would see it. Found info that the inner cup seal has the groove toward the grease and the outer wiper seal the groove goes toward the idler. The seals are different so look at them carefully.
Welder Dave, LOL, I forget what I did yesterday, let alone years ago. I asked Nige and he said the groove/lip goes toward the grease pressure side. Which pushes against the seal lip to make it seal. I also asked a machinist friend of mine and he said the same thing. So, that's how I am going to install it. Hopefully that's the correct orientation. Working on patching a small hole in the oil pan today. Using JB WELD. I have had good luck with it before. Thanks for all your help.
The U shaped seal goes towards the grease and the wiper seal goes the other way. They should look a little different. My oil pan got a hole in it from a root through the hole for the drain plug when another guy was using it. I made a bolt on cover for that hole and the shop that rebuilt the engine found a used cast iron oil pan for $350cad. which was a good deal. A new stamped pan was $750. The bolts for the cast pan were an odd length though. They had to cut std. bolts shorter but not a big deal. I also needed a new pick up tube. JB weld should work as long as everything is clean and oil free. Wouldn't be a bad idea to make a metal patch larger than the hole and stick it to JB weld around the hole. This would help prevent JB weld getting in the oil pan.
I got the seals in last night although I didn't have time to pump up the adjuster to get the track tension correct. Was planning on doing that today, but it's pouring down rain. The JB WELD two part epoxy didn't quite work. Even though the oil pan was empty, you still get oil seeping out of the hole through the JB WELD. I picked up some Liquid Steel to use. I have used it before on a diesel Beetle oil pan that a sharp piece of limestone poked a hole in. I placed a quarter over that hole. Held up really good. Idid clean the area up with a wire wheel and grinder, then sprayed with ether to degrease the area. Good idea about using metal to cover the hole. I will probably use a dime. (Not sure if that dime will add any value to the machine) LOL Anyway everything is on hold because of the weather. Hope you have a great day!
I'd use a piece of sheet metal shaped the same as the oil pan. If you warmed up the oil pan after draining the oil you could get rid of any oil residue. Best thing would be if you could jack the machine up so any oil left runs away from the hole. Another option is they make a putty especially for fuel leaks that isn't affected by leaking fuel. Fire dept's. use it in vehicle collisions to stop leaking fuel tanks.
I have had exceptional luck with JB tank repair. It’s a grey nasty smelling putty, you mix and mold by hand. Sticks well and you can push it right in the hole. Also good for temporary fillings in your teeth. It does taste bad but if there is a gaping hole in a tooth, it works well.
Yes, I had some JB 2 part epoxy in the large tubes. If I recall correctly I used it on the plastic diesel fuel tank on my 02 Beetle when I inadvertently ran the point of a long Sawzall blade into the plastic fuel tank. That product worked really well on that application. I tried the same product on the 931B oil pan. But, oil seemed to work its way through before it dried. So, picked up a stick of JB QUIK STEEL which is fuel resistant. Going to mix some up. Put it on a quarter and stick it on where the hole is. Will put the quarter heads up, just for good luck. LOL LOL, on filling teeth. It crossed my mind.
The idea behind putting metal over the hole is so none or very little of the epoxy gets into the oil pan. If a little bit were to break off or didn't fully harden because of oil residue it could possibly cause damage to the engine. Fuel resistant likely means after it's cured unless it's the specific JB fuel tank repair. I've had good luck with std. JB weld on the initial hole in my oil pan. Maybe because it was right at the bottom?? I also used it successfully to repair the oil cooler on an older skid steer I had. Couldn't weld it or braze it so packed a bunch of JB on and it worked. Used a vacuum in the filler neck to stop oil running out. Don't think it would work on the pressure side of the hydraulics though. What's really important with 2 part epoxies is getting the mixing ratio right. If there isn't enough hardener it won't harden no matter how long you leave it. Applying some heat helps quite a bit and you can dip your finger in water to smooth it out the same as smoothing out silicone caulking.
Yes, it was fuel tank repair epoxy stick. The hole was only about an 1/8 inch or smaller. I see what you are saying about epoxy getting up into the oil pan. Too late now, it's a done deal. Yes, I usually just use an little sliva on my finger to smooth it out. I will put one more coat of the tube epoxy on it to make it look pretty and call it good. Yes, I used a shop vac in the hydraulic filler neck to pull vacuum when I removed the hydraulic return line off when R&R on the starter. I agree with the epoxy working on a pressure system.