I finally was able to bring my rig up here to Tn. from Ga. yesterday and now it's time to do some repairs to get the loader ready to work. My first issue is the water pump needs to be resealed and I don't have a service manual yet. I was hoping Nige or one of you guys with the Cat data could help me out. I don't want to just start turning bolts without any directions and I can't find any videos on it. Thanks in advance ! Cat 941b 80h 6489
Need a S/N to know if it is an early or late model engine. Later machines with S/N above 80H3884 had a 3304 engine.
Sorry,I was in the process of doing an edit while you were typing!
80H 6489
The attached should give you the general idea. If you don't have repair parts already it's going to need the engine Serial Number (78Pxxxx) because there are 5 different arrangements of water pump with subtle differences between each of them. Even the repair kit is not the same P/N.
Thanks sir,that will help tremendously!
Do you have all the parts information that you need.?
Yessir, I have a parts book, but I'm not sure exactly what all I need. I have a couple of seals that the previous owner had bought. He had planned on fixing it but he got sick and never got around to it. I want to replace anything that looks questionable and all of the seals.
It may be worthwhile you checking that the Parts Manual you have actually covers the particular engine in your machine. The snip below illustrates what you are up against. Five different arrangements of water pump dependent on engine S/N. The system does not list an engine S/N for your machine so I have no idea which one of the five is the relevant one in your case.
I will tread carefully, I am the third owner and I think the machine was built in '78 according to the fellow I got it from, he owned it since '80.
See if you can find a Serial Number plate on the engine would be my first thought.
Not sure this will help in finding the tag the picture in the service manual is not very clean but maybe you can figure out where they are showing the tag!
The problem is Ken that what's required is the engine S/N. I've looked at the photo of the location of that tag and I believe it to be from an earlier machine with a D300-series engine. Here's one from a late-model 955 with a 3304 that I think should be the correct location.
Your post starts out with a 3304 pump and ends up with a 3500 water pump ,don't think this info is going to help this feller much. Bob
You are dealing with a 3304 engine one of the easier water pumps to reseal if the shaft is alright. You could stop by the Cat shop and ask them to print off the pump repair pages for you and check your part numbers for your pump. Bob
From what I have been able to find is there were basically two pumps used on the engine in this machine. 2P0662 and 7N5909. The 2P0662 pump uses kit #1W7051 and 7N5909 uses kit #1W7053 Looked at break downs on both those pumps and there are many parts the same right down to oil and water seals but then things like gears, housings and impellers are different.
I know that it's a 3304, I've had several in the past. Here's the sn 78p30897
78P30897
It looks like I need the 2p-0662 group.
Here's the parts listing for the pump based on your engine Serial Number.
I have the pump off. Do you have any disassembly instructions?
Sent you a PM.
I'm having trouble getting the impellor off of the shaft....anyone have any advice?
I usually buy a OR-0797 rebuilt pump and skip the aggravation, a in and out about 1 hour. Take the bolt out and hit the shaft with a soft hammer. Bob
I would try a bolt a little longer than the original and screw it in till it bottoms out and give it a good sharp smack. I looked at the kit online and was surprised that they do not indicate the seal or impeller being included in the kit, maybe just a typo. The more I looked it seems there have been some updates to those pumps and it might be a good idea to check availability of the repair parts. I'm thinking a new shaft and impeller may be needed.
I think you are right,it may need more than seals but I am old school and in no hurry,if I can rebuild mine....I will.
Thanks for the tip, I took the bolt from the gear side,ran it in until it bottomed and put a little torque on it,hit it about 3 good raps with a 3lb hammer and it popped right off....thanks a million.
Now I'm having trouble getting the gear off,of cource, I was wondering if you have any tricks to pull the gear?
Take the bolt out and pry up on the gear with 2 pry bars, gear is pined to impeller shaft with 2 pins. Bob
Thanks,that was easy. I just don't get too aggresive without some instruction but the two bars popped it right out.
now take snap ring off bearing and drive shaft out with bearing. Bob
Any numbers on the impeller, gear or shaft? Just trying to be sure any information I or anyone gives you is accurate. With machines that have been around a few years can never be sure someone hasn't got creative to keep them working. That can really throw you for a loop fixing them latter on!
I don't think the old seals were correct, this is the new one shown in the sequence that I think is correct, can you,Nice, or Khansen, tell me if this is right?
I ended up buying the rebuild kit and a new impeller just to be safe, all genuine oem CAT parts, I am just trying to make sure I get them installed correctly. All of the numbers match except for the seal and spring that has a new number.
You have 1 too many seals there just use the one with spring Bob
So the one that I have between the white ring and the spring and seal is the extra one? It was in the box with the spring and seal .
Did you replace the white ring and the seal it sets in ? Will that extra seal fit in the housing where the white one is? Is the spring seal a new one? Bob
Just to be clear, the 2 that can mount in the case I call seats and the one in white is probably made of ceramic. I believe you can use either seat as long as the shaft seal rides on the seat, and does not overlap the edge. If the darker one is magnetic I believe it is less desirable if it is a ni-resist seat, it with rust and fail sooner. The one on the shaft is probably carbon and is fragile. The faces should be very clean and dry before installation.
There is a rubber seal that I put in the bottom of the housing and the white ceramic ring fits inside it,they had numbers on their package and that's the way it shows in the parts diagram. Then I put the rubber and ceramic seal on with the ceramic out,then the next one is the metal,rubber and ceramic that the spring sits on. I put it on whith the ceramic against the ceramic of the other seal. I hope I wrote that so you understand what I mean. Every seal,spring shaft,bearings and impeller are new. I'm holding it the way I installed it in the first picture at the top.
I don't think it will but I can check in the am.
The white one is the usual set up but the one that came with the spring may be a upgrade . There should have been some paper work with the rebuild kit. this is why I just usually buy a rebuilt one . Bob
I think you might be right, if I can get the white ring and the rubber it fits in out without too much trouble I will try the other one because I can see that it might hold up better. There was no paperwork with the kit and the kit didn't include the seals.I had to order them seperately I like to rebuild everything that I can to save money, I have about $200 in this rebuild and everything will be new except the gear and the housing. I think the exchange is $899 or more.
We have one to many parts. All the seals and seats should be replaced as a group. One of the seats does not match up to the one on the shaft. Quote " So the one that I have between the white ring and the spring and seal is the extra one? It was in the box with the spring and seal. " This says to me the the white one is not part of a matched set.
Hot water seals are mostly the same as cold water. Most importantly you can’t have any oil or grease between the seal faces. Often they end up leaking or have early failure. You want the shaft and the hole for the seat to be really clean. I use very thin coating of synthetic grease on both of them to make installing them possible. I use Superlube, its easier to get a really thin coating. Some times I coat the rubber that slides on them. You want to use as little slippery agent as possible! I heard no grit hand clear works to. Sounds good but I never used it. Before you open the seal package go and wash your hands! The best thing is to never touch the faces of the seal. When installing the seat there usually is a round piece of carboard in the package, I use that to install the seat. If I see any specks of dirt or dust I blow it off. If it doesn't come off hit with contact cleaner and air. If you have to wipe it I like brand new micro fiber cloth. Some paper towels will leave marks. The cheap ones are usually better. I worked on all kinds of hot water pump seals. The principles are the same. The boiler feed pumps were the most extreme, 240F, 5000+ rpms, 600+ psi in the pump, 170psi at the seals. The gray looking seal seat above may be silicon carbide, if it is about the same weight as the white ceramic one. Silicon carbide is somewhat expensive, lasts a long time and is tolerant of rapid temperature changes, and can withstand really high temperatures like the boiler feed pump. You don't need it for a water pump in a machine that heats up and cools down slowly. I would use silicon carbide if I didn't have to pay too much extra for it.
There are a lot of little things that a person that works a lot on say pump seals. He just does them without really thinking about it. It also can be hard to remember if it isn't sitting on the bench in front of me. I can really see why Bob says he just buys the water pump that's already rebuilt. It's a good answer. For most folks because there is only one water pump on the machine and it’s relatively inexpensive. Especially if you don't have the time, experience, or patience to do the work. Then again it's really not that hard to rebuild one. Charles looks to save $700 on this job! Yeah Right it's Worth it! He could do it twice and still save like $600 and be a wiser man when he's done. Water leaks get worse faster because there is pressure in the system and the water is hotter and thinner than the oil systems. The water will cut away anywhere a leak gets started. When it comes to specifics well? Thankfully there’s a lot of good guy’s on this forum that are willing to help out. Nige, man you sure have the resources!
Thanks for your input. I ended up taking the white piece and the rubber that it sits in out and putting the one that I was calling extra in,I'm thinking that it will work now. I'm waiting on new hoses and clamps that I ordered from a Cat surplace dealer and when they get here I'll be trying it out. I will be watching it very close for quite some time for leaks.
If it's not freezing there I suggest you fill up with water and run awhile to check for leaks. these pumps are know to dump water into oil pan if the seals are leakers. I checked my price on a rebuilt pump some what less than 400$ so thats why its cheaper for me to use them. Bob
I can understand why anyone trying to earn a living with the tractor would want to do the exchange, time is money, but that's not my situation at the moment. I do intended to use water to begin with until I am sure it isn't getting into the oil. That's what it was doing that got me into this project.
Well,I finally got her all back together and filled up the radiator and changed the oil and filter. Fired up for about 10 minutes and then shut down,waited about an hour and measured my oil on the stick. Now to see if it rises any over the next few days.
Way to go Charles! After some use tell us how it comes out, and any tidbits you may have learned along the way. Shawn
I will be posting some results of this repair,and I will be posting about the next part of the project,new bolts and building up the roller frame and a leaking final drive.
Keep on going! But don't forget about the pictures, yours have helped a lot.