I'm looking to buy my first track loader. I've done tons of research and looked at a few. Reading/lurking on this forum has been a good education and fun to boot:thumbsup.The CAT 943 with 4n1 would be ideal and I've located a good used 1986 model a few hundred miles away. I'm planning to inspect the machine shortly and would like advice as to what items to inspect and how. Are there any problem areas this machine is known for and how might I evaluate those issues. I'm thinking of taking oil/fluid samples for analysis by CAT. Are fluid samples worth doing? Should I sample engine oil, hydro and coolant? What is the best way to take the samples, with a syphon pump? Should I take actual measurements on the track or just visually inspect for wear? Should I test any pressures and how? Any tips or techiniques for my inspection would be really appreciated. Or should I just pay a CAT tech to come out and look at it? I plan to use the machine on 110 acres to clear some trees/brush, burn tree piles, move rock, repair a dam, clear roads...etc. I've never run a dozer but grew up on a farm and I'm familiar with ag machines. I'm a pretty decent mechanic so I should be able to service and repair it myself I would think. Other machines I considered were CAT 955, 953 and Case 850 but I like the size (25k lbs) and features of the 943 for what I intend to use it. Thanks in advance for any guidance here.
I would order replacement filters for systems ahead of time and take them along, replace them and then cut open and inspect the old ones for signs of debris. Instant results are far better than oil samples which can often be misleading. Also, if you find something and the seller is present, you have a nice bargaining chip. If you need help getting filters or analyzing debris we will be happy to assist.
I really doubt anyone is going to let you change filters and why would you go to that expense anyway. Oil samples will work unless the oils have already been changed. So the question happens to be who is selling this gem? Most all dealers change oils to prevent lost sales on metal that shouldn't be there. I use a suction gun to take samples. Any franchised dealer can sell you the guns and hose. Take the coolant sample first as you don't want to open a hot radiator. Warm the machine up before you take the oil samples. Anything you can measure will help you in your negotiations on the purchase price. Paying a Cat dealer mechanic is very expensive, particularly if you don't purchase the machine. Their checks are very thorough but take all day to do. You will get hung for travel and mileage as well as labor and the add charge of consumables & environmental. I figure they will run you a thousand bucks minimum. Operationally test everything. I use a stop watch to check cycle times on the boom and bucket. I'll run stall tests on the converter and transmission. I visually inspect for leaks. I measure the undercarriage and determine its actual percentage worn. Make sure you get the serial number and double check the year of manufacture on the machine. Many times the year of manufacture is thought to be the year it was first purchased. Make sure you ask all the questions that come to mind and write down the answers. Write down the names of anyone on site with you. Implement joints are the big thing on these. Look for cracks on the main frame and make sure all the belly pans are in place. I go through all the gears in both directions. Good Luck!
:my2c Great tips John! Having been a repair shop for over 22 years, we've only recently become a dealer of equipment so I may be wrong, but I don't understand why you say a dealer wouldn't let you cut open the filters if you're armed and ready to replace them, especially in this slow economy. If a customer wanted to do that to something of ours we'd thank them. Plus, if you cut it open and it looks brand new, you confirm your hunch that "Most all dealers change oils to prevent lost sales on metal that shouldn't be there." :cool2 As mentioned in my previous post, oil sample tests can often be misleading, time consuming, and costly. Filters are almost always under $20, and if it's a machine you're serious about, i would think it's well worth your investment. If you do end up getting the filters apart, please post some pics MoCat! We may be able to tell you what to be concerned about just by looking at it.
1 What is the asking price of this machine?? 2 Why a 943 ??? 3 why so old???
i wouldn't worry about the motor much past does it sound good and checking the oil and water. the little 4 cylinder in there is a good motor and not all that much to rebuild. i would focus on tracks and hydrostat. track look them over well the sprokets should be blunt on the ends not sharp, and where they hit the rail should be round not egg shaped. most important is the hydrostat. this is the thing that will eat 20 grand when it goes. look at the oil it should look like new. you will need to operate this machine with the motor wide open or the hydro will be jerky. open it up and work the machine in both directions it should not be jerky and smothly incress as you pull the lever back further. you need to work the machine for an hour or more hard. and make sure it is not going to start sliping. i push looking at this because a motor is 3-4000 to rebuild and tracks are 2-3 for rails and sprokets, the hydro will be in the 20-25000. and you will have a hard time finding anyone to work on it cat included.
Thanks for all the replies and useful advice. You guys are awesome! I'm definitely taking down notes and creating a checklist to take with me when I inspect the machine. To answer Wolf44, I'm hoping to pay around $13-15k for the loader. Here's my top 10 for why I picked the 943: (1) I like the rear engine design for forward visibility, counter weight, engine access, and just looks cooler in my mind; (2) I've read good reviews on the 943 in general but especially the reliability of the engine; (3) the size is small enough to clear around trees I want to save but large enough to still take out a good size tree and more maneuverable; (4) it has the 4n1 on it; (5) hopefully it will fit in barn; (6) it appears to be an LGP so should be less prone to getting stuck in muck, lower impact on ground and a bit more stable; (7) I specifically wanted an older machine so that I can work on it myself b/c less electronics/computer issues; (8) I figure the 943 wouldn't be as thirsty a machine to run as the larger dudes; (9) lighter weight makes transport and recovery (hopefully never needed, don't plan to get it stuck) less of an issue; (10) its a CAT so it should be more durable and parts available. From Igammon's comments it sounds like the Hydro is area to focus on when inspecting 943s and a possible weakness. I had heard that you can test a transmission by running the machine up against a very immovable object and then pushing and watching to see if the tracks slip or if the trans slips. Does that test apply to a hydro trans too? Btw, I promise pics if its purchased. I truly appreciate all the help. Hopefully this thread will benefit somebody else too.
AmerIndependent, It would be a good idea on the filters but look at it from a dealers stand point. Someone I don't know is going to pull oily messy filters out of my machine and possibly make a mess I have to clean up. What's worse is I don't know if this guy knows what he is doing and what happens if something else gets broke or a leak happens? Who is responsible for the cleanup? Who is responsible for broken parts? Many people having broken something would simply just walk away. Why would a dealer take that chance? An oil sample is cheap compared to all that and it will reveal dark secrets if the machine is run long enough.
$2-3 grand for 2 rails and two sets of sprocket segments??
Hi Mocat , keep in mind that by putting load on drive system of hydrostatic drive loader the tracks will slow down by design . so dont confuse this with "slippage" in transmission. a good way check is to run machine get it good and warm and run it back and forth straight for about 50 yards the machine should track fairly straight if it tracks off more that a couple feet it could be indicator of a bad pump or track motor and as the other guys have said they are expensive to get fixed. I just changed one in 953 and it was 21 grand to rebuild
Well, I was able to inspect the machine today. It shows its age but not too bad. It was cold out but it started after having sat for about a week. I only took samples of the engine oil and trans oil for analysis. I had too short a breaker bar to break the final drive filler caps loose so couldn't sample their oil. I warmed the machine up first. Trans and engine oil both were dark; the engine oil more so. The trans oil had bubbles in it when I pulled it but wasn't frothy. I cut my sample tubing just longer than the dipsticks to draw the oils. The machine tracked pretty straight but deviated maybe a few feet over about 50 yards. PO installed a modification to the crankcase breather to route it outside the engine compartment. He said these machines are known for some blowby and the mod routes the residue outside so engine and radiator stay cleaner. I put my hand over the end of this modified breather tube and could feel a very light cough at idle. Track and chain look good but I don't like the look of the sprockets. They aren't very blunt at tips but aren't exactly sharp either. The distance between the peaks on the sprockets seemed wider than they should be given the lack of wear on the track. The track pins look fresh and round. I'm afraid these pins will wear faster because of the worn sprockets. How difficult/expensive is it to replace the drive sprockets? Bucket lift/dump/4way cycled fine but hydrolic fluid resevoir was very low on fluid level indicator window. Hydrolic fluid did look clear. Rubber gaskets around cab were very worn and dry rotted. I would have liked to move some dirt with it but there wasn't any to be had. Machine was parked on an asphalt lot and while test driving I had to be careful not to tear up the lot. Not the best conditions to test drive. Thanks again to everyone here for your advice for my inspection, as a result I think I was able evaluate the tractor much better. I'll let you know if I'm able to negotiate a purchase.
That got my attention too. The first track job on our 943 was done to the best standards by the dealer. I was quoted $11500.00. When I picked it up the bill was a lot more and I'm NOT complaining about the dealer. They kept me updated at every step and I approved all the extras. Sometimes that's just the way things work. (big sigh)
when we did the tracks it was a few years ago. we just got the rails and segments all the rollers and front idlers where good. that being said we put the Italian tracks bernco? on it. and we did it our selves. if you go cat the parts will be double and labor at 80-120 an hour. they will also push you to replace a lot of rollers that have life in them. on a 943 you can break a track down and replace rollers later fairly easily. we are a small outfit and me and dad do this kind of maintenance in house, and by it just being me and him we keep a lot closer eye on the equipment. the rails may be a bit more now because metal is up these days.
Last spring I did some undercarriage work on my 953. New pads and bolts, turned P&B's, sprocket segments and many pins on the track. We did the labor in house - track pads on and off, breaking the chains and re-installation. The parts and track shop labor was $8700 and change. The sprocket segments and bolts were around $1000 each side if my memory serves correctly. This was all Cat parts and the dealer did the P&B work. I thought that was a fair price. To me the Cat undercarriage parts are worth the money in the long run over after market alternatives. The loader has a little over 4K hours and hopefully I can get 3K out of the turn. Chains and sprocket segments are just one part of an undercarriage. I would advise MoCat to throughly check the undercarriage and % worn as well. The repair costs can be much more than $2-3K.
Dark oil in the hydrostat system generally means problems from what I have seen of our 973's. Also... if your dealer is as picky about Case drain and Charge Filters on the 943 as we are... they probably wouldn't let you pull them anyways. Our biggest problem with them being pulled in the field is contamination of oil. We have just recently again switched the oil in all of our machines to a straight TW-10 weight oil. A good way to check the life of your hydrostat unit is to get moving at a good speed and go into a hard turn. These machines should be able to power through a turn pretty well. You will lose some speed but if it doesn't noticeable whip you around... something be wrong captain. The older 973A I used to run had a fresh motor and only 1100hrs on the HPCU (hydrostat). Once day I noticed it starting to slow down a bit on the turns, the next day our track loader mech. was out to pull the HPCU filter. It was full of brass. We waited for a float truck to come pick it up but it was too late. Just as I was walking to the truck with the machine I heard a loud pop and down she went. I am not sure how the 43's are setup whether they have that ungodly heavy cast iron housing to go over the paper filter for the HPCU but if they do.... your not going to have fun changing that filter. And make sure to check the pump drive. Thats 3 litres of oil that you want to know is full all the time. They have to be checked cold. They can be checked hot but almost any expansion in the oil is going to throw your readngs off.
i have to ask why you replaced pads at 4000 hours? we have a 941b a 74 model that we bought 2 years old. the original pads cracked and broke, so cat replaced them. and they are still on the machine. granted they are pretty slick these days. still have 1/2-3/4 of grouser left on them, and this machine has around 40,000 hours on it. it runs in clay most all of the time. i just don't see pads not lasting more than a few thousand hours. we are owner operators so we are fairly easy on them. we always run them for a few 3-4000 hours turn the pins and bushings, run them around 2500 more hours, then they are out of adjustment, then if the sprokets are not cutting on the bushings we take a link out and run them till they start cutting in to the bushings which is about 500-750 hours. this sounds a little extreme and i fuss at dad years ago and he told me if there is some life left in them get it cause they won't give you credit for it when you buy the replacement parts. and if you are charging 85 per hour for 500 more is over 40,000 which you can help with the track bill when it comes do. now we only replace rollers when they start leaking oil, stop turning, or start cutting the bosses. now the 8900 that you spent at cat. well take it down a 1/4 from a 53 to 43, which is 6675, now if you buy after market you can cut cat in half which is 3337. that would be a price for a 943 pads , turn pins and bushings and segments. so that is quite a big differance. also heavy equips labor is a bit cheaper than cats too. now this is just what we see when we price them, now don't get me wrong i think that cat undercarrages are great just that they don't last twice as long as good aftermaket, and for the price they need to. we also are not doing a great deal of work that is time sensitive if when to take a loader down for a week it doesn't hurt to much there are only two operators and we have three loaders. for us it just isn't worth the extra cost.
The aftermarket parts are better than they used to be. We went that way last time just because of the work situation and hours that the machine runs. Still, we got 7300 hours out of the Cat premium undercarriage, mostly in dirt, hard to beat that. We used to do our own undercarriage work, but a well equipped shop doesn't really need that many hours to do a straight undercarriage switch on a modern machine.