Cat 973 S# 86G032XX Built July’97 (from cat web site) Engine 3306 DIT Eng. No: 13Z400XX There is no fuel coming into the injector lines, only a slight dribble out of a couple of the plunger units. My key question: What is the length of travel of the fuel rack ? History: The 973 had been sitting, deserted, in a quarry for 10+ years. Hydrostatic drive problems, still to be sorted. Some persons may have tried to start the machine or even run the motor over that period – unknown? This machine was the subject of a discussion back in March 24, 2019 " Cat 973 86G032xx - Hydrostatic Transmission and Brakes. " A couple of years ago I inspected the machine and started it. The first time, it went straight to maximum revs and I undid a fuel line fitting to stop it. Straight after, it was difficult to start and I had to bleed to all the injectors before it would continue to run. It ran rough, barely above the low idle. I assumed it was degraded fuel, sitting 10+ years. No water or sludge, but the diesel was a bit discoloured (brown ?). Around the same time (month) I managed to start it again. Can’t remember how it ran as the purpose was to check the implement pump and bucket functions. So I’ve finally found time to work on the 973 to bring it home, early June ’21. There is no fuel coming out the top of the pump into the injector lines. The hand pump and the lift pump are working. Fuel will come out of the test nipple on the pump manifold and the fuel return line fitting (same cavity). I have cleaned the water separation filter and screen inside (bit dirty but no water), and replaced the main fuel filter cartridge. Routed both fuel lines out/into a plastic jerry so there is fresh clean diesel available. By now I’m assuming the injector pump rack is stuck in the fuel-off position. Almost, as some fuel seeps out thru a couple of the check valves on the top of the pump (1,4 & 6 from memory) with even an obvious minor squirt from #6. So I commenced to pull the governor and other units off the back off the pump to try to access the back of the rack. (Didn’t have a puller with me to pull the drive gear off the front of the pump). I managed to remove the rear governor housing, but not the front governor housing. I was surprised to see what looks like a solenoid fixed to the back of the pump (see illustration and photo), tucked in behind the Fuel Ratio Control. This “solenoid” is 100mm long and 45mm diameter with 2 x 3/₁₆” studs, which look like electrical terminals. [See #1 and #2 photos] My understanding is the motor is shutdown by the pump rack been moved to the most forward position, activated via the governor control (throttle lever). Looking over the wiring schematic (SENR5372), I’m wondering if is this the “Start Aid Solenoid” ? The wiring schematic shows it coming thru the same harness connector as other engine related electrical components such as the fuel pressure sensor. There is no available wiring nearby other than for the starter motor, although this machine has been interfered with and changed a bit - especially the wiring. The end of the valve that protrudes from the governor servo housing only moves about ¼”. Initially I thought it would be connected to the end of the rack and so have grater movement, but after reading sections of the Service Manual, I now realise that separately, there is a piston in the body of the servo that is connected to the rack and that the protruding valve stem probably only needs to move ¼” to cover/uncover ports which allows engine oil to either side of the governor servo piston which then moves the piston and the attached rack. [See #3 and #4 photos] View attachment 241142 Am I on the right track ? Have since looked at the Service Manual and hope to be able to pull the front governor housing off the back of the pump. With or without doing this I should be able to remove the governor servo housing to get access to the end of the pump rack ? Also, can I access the front end of the pump rack thru the pump drive gear ?
This should be interesting. I wont be much help here as I always have the pros do injection pumps. Being self employed, I have to guaranty a perfect pump that has been dyno'd and calibrated.
maybe its not building any housing pressure combined with a sticky rack
It's a shutoff solenoid, an optional attachment. So the engine is shut off via the solenoid acting on the injection pump rack instead of a manual shutoff via the hand control. The option appears to be two types. Some are listed as "Energized to run". Others are listed as "Energized to shut off". I can't find a listing for either 86G or the 13Z engine so I have no idea which type you have, although the illustrations I can see leads me to believe that the one in your photo may be "energized to run" because it does not have the diode #6. See below. Energized to Run Energized to Shut off
Have you tried removing the solenoid to determine whether or not the rack moves further than it does with it installed.?
Somebody must have too much money or there were major problems with the machine. That's an expensive chunk of iron to be basically abandoned. How many hours does it show?
To remove the servo you will have to remove the springs on the end of the governor shaft. This is tricky to do in situ. You need a special clamp to compress the springs whilst you remove the teeny tiny snap ring on the end. Before I start a job like this I always like to order a couple of new snap rings, just in case. If you decide to proceed, I can post a photo of the clamp. Is won't be hard to fabricobble something for yourself. Have you tried removing the rack setting access plate to see if you can move the rack with a screwdriver?
also be aware that a "stuck rack" is just, if not more, likely to be a stuck pump element. You may be getting deeper into this than you want to be. This is an early scroll pump on a D333 I did a while ago. Slightly different design to yours but the same in principle and the same problem.
Or worse still, multiple seized elements.......
I wouldn’t attempt that in the field on a good day.!! If u get 1, just 1 of the p&b off 1 tooth.. it’s gonna scream up in rpm’s so fast it’ll make your head spin.. “IF” u remove 1.. have someway to choke the engine down, BEFORE U TURN THE KEY..
Also be aware that if you get the finger on one or more of those flyweights on the wrong side of the riser bad thins will happen fast. See red arrow!
Answer - No. Can I observe the rack with these components assembled ? Firstly no harm in listing the full Serial Nos - no secrets, and I assume this will allow helpful forum members to look up the specs. Ser. No: 86G03289. Build Date - 07/07/1997 (from cat web site) Engine 3306; Eng. No: 13Z40097 Transmission: 8CA02707 Arrangement No: 111-4903, 119-6893, 9J5010 Parts Order: Z Before the previous owner, maybe about 20 years ago (?), it came from a landfill / rubbish dump site at Greenacre in SW greater Sydney. I think I gleaned this from the operator’s log books still in the cab when I inspected the machine a couple of years ago. I remember the operator making complaining notes about oil leaks - engine, transmission, hydraulic oil, overheating, couldn’t switch off ! LOL. The machine is 100kms away and I’m keen to get it started, see if that releases the brakes, so I can float it home. Some thoughts: Firstly, in regard to the engine I tend to think of the crankshaft pulley and water pump as the “front” of the engine, and the flywheel as the “rear”, so forgive me for using this terminology here. Get ready for some heavy pedantic reading. 1) When I started the machine a couple years ago, the electrics were in a mess and I hadn’t researched and familiarised myself with the electric schematics back then. The key start switch (KSS) didn’t work and I started the motor by shorting between the HD +ve terminal on the starter motor and the energising terminal on the starter solenoid … and it ran. That prompts thoughts about how this pump solenoid works ? 2) The pump solenoid - the plunger is extended (forward) without electrical power. The spring pushes against a washer swaged onto the end of the plunger. I am able to push the plunger back towards the body of the solenoid by about ½”. It takes 3½ Kg to begin compressing the plunger spring and about 5 Kg to push the plunger all the way in. 3) Nige, your top diagram of the solenoid is a good representation although it has different terminals on the rear face of the solenoid. Both show the spring behind the end of the plunger, so I suspect the plunger is extended when not energised, for both of them ? 4) The electrical schematic (SENR5372 Feb’95) has a purple wire coming off terminal “C” of the KSS which is live when the key is off. This circuit #326 is called the “KEY SW “C” TERM.” and the only wire is routed thru the same harness connector as other engine related electrics. But then it dead ends (goes nowhere) on the schematic. At the time, I thought “What needs power when the key is off, but not while it is on ?” Also I thought, it would need to be only a few mA otherwise the battery would be flat in a week or so. You can see where I’m going with this … the pump solenoid. However this arrangement would surprise me. A solenoid that has to be energised to stop the motor ? Apart from the current drain issue when the key is off, it makes no sense in terms of a failsafe mechanism. 5) The Operation and Maintenance Manual (SEBU6915-03 Aug 2000) states that the Battery Disconnect Switch be turned off and the key removed “when you exit the machine overnight or when you exit the machine for an extended period of time”. It doesn't emphasise the possibility of a flat battery. Admittedly it’s good practice as dirty machines can have many high resistance leaks from exposed live terminals and connectors throughout. 6) While I was on-site (100 kms away), during pulling the governor off, I tested the solenoid, with 24V in both polarities (mini jumper leads from the starter motor). Nothing, no noise or “knock” vibration. Just now, I put a multimeter across the terminals - open circuit. Have no idea how much current would be required to hold the solenoid plunger back in, but probably a couple of amps. My experience of shut-off solenoids on smaller machines (< 100 Hp) which are usually energised for the motor to run, draw around 300-500 mA. 7) I haven’t work out what the solenoid plunger would act on as I foolishly pulled the governor control lever shaft out the side of the governor before removing the rear governor housing and the levers fell off the shaft … tsk . Hang on and I’ll have a play. Bugger … forgot to put the nitrile gloves on. Some more photos. Same nomenclature as previous photo Solenoid plunger aligns with back side of lever, just below (B) label. I assume this lever sits against the governor servo valve (looks like a stem) at position (b) D - Governor Control shaft (from operator’s throttler lever). E - Lever (8N-3168) keyed to shaft (D), pushes on the back of lever (B), at the other end of the visible adjustment screw and lock nut. F - Lever, engages with lever (E) thru the low idle to high idle movement. It compresses the governor spring to increase the revs You may be able to see that the solenoid plunger aligns with the lever (4W-5735) that pivots on a separate shaft (7N-8785) above the Governor Control shaft. It’s the same lever that the Fuel Ratio Control (FRC) unit indexes into … while the other end sits against the valve (stem) of the governor control servo. So this lever directly affects the rack and not via the governor spring and flyweights action. The solenoid plunger aligns with a side tang of that lever, closer to its fulcrum - shorter arc. I judge that the plunger travel is about the same as the travel arc of the lever, where they would contact. The only problem is that the plunger shaft is about 40mm too short, however …. on closer inspection the shaft appears to be “sawn off” just above the swaged-on washer. Rough marks like someone used a hacksaw. So now I’m thinking, the electrics failed; no one had the expertise or patience to sort it out and the end was cut off the solenoid plunger so the motor would run. The only thing that doesn’t agree is Nige’s diagrams of the solenoids, which show the washer at the end of the plunger ? The solenoid plunger misses the heavy machined lever (8N-3168 LEVER -THROTTLE) that keys onto the Governor Control shaft. Lever (B) limits how far the pump rack can open, as set by the Governor Control lever being in other than high idle, or the FRC limiting the maximum rearward rack travel. It can push the pump rack all the way forward to stop fuel delivery, either by closing the Governor Control lever andacting via lever (E) in the photos, or separately by de-energising the pump solenoid which directly pushes on the back of lever (B). The rack is moved rearwards to a higher fuel delivery position, only by the governor spring, balanced by the flyweight action spring. The governor spring pressure is increased by lever (F) via engagement with lever (E) in the low idle to high idle range. 8) I had some more photos with the FRC plunger indexed into this lever and at governor control shaft positions of a) cut-off, b) low idle, c) high idle. Without going into a lot more description, I can see that this lever travel arc will allow a maximum fuel position and be just shy of being limited by the FCR (in this non-running state) AND if the solenoid is de-energised, be rotated to the opposite side of it’s arc and shut down the fuel supply, independent of the Governor Control (throttle lever) and the governor mechanism. So now, it makes sense to me. 9) All this started from wanting to check if the rack was stuck. I was looking for a way to inspect the rack movement without disassembling the governor or pump. After some reading of the Systems Operation Testing & Adjusting manual (SENR2782-01 Sept 88), and the Disassembly & Assembly manual (SENR5559-01 Sept’93), I concluded I’d be able to take the Pump Timing Cover off (7N-1047), and observe the rack. I took the cover off and peered into the centre hole with a torch. I could see something shiny/polished and what appeared to be a crevice down the side of it. Inserted a pointy probe, wriggle, but could get no movement with/without operating the Governor control (throttle lever) to limits. Another quick look at the manuals and realised I was looking at the pump camshaft (and probably down the side of a cam lobe ?). The hole is for a pin (Cat tool) which locks the pump near TDC for timing alignment with the motor. After half disassembling the governor and getting home, back to studying the manuals. There it was, slapping me in the face, the rack plainly visible in photos in both the SOT&A manual (p.55) and the D&A manual (p.27, 31). The rack should have be plainly visible under the same access cover ?! I CANNOT understand how I missed seeing the rack ? Must have been the downward vision angle ? The lesson: make sure you read the manuals completely and have an overview and understand the systems and functions before pulling things apart … Oh well. 10) I’ve done a lot more reading … of the Specifications manual (SENR2781-01 Sept ’88), the Disassembly & Assembly manual (above) and the Systems Operation Testing & Adjusting manual (above)… again and again. I’m now aware that pulling the sleeve (1N-3800) backwards and compressing the spring (1N-3802) on the governor servo valve (stem), should also move the rack back. All I need to do is observe the rack to see if it is free!! Again can any one tell me what travel length the pump rack has. I'm guessing 1 to 1½" ? If that is the case, should the governor servo valve (stem) move a similar amount ?
Welder Dave: Health issues (recent stroke), lot of life stresses and knew he was never going to get around to fixing it. Apparently a mechanic came over to do some work on it, backed it up and it wouldn’t go forward. And there it sat. Has 100s of other old machines sitting around, including a Komatsu D475 sitting at the front gate. I'm told it was transported there in pieces from a mine out west, re-assembled and hasn’t done any work. If you’re in Oz and want a 750Hp, 110 tonne dozer, I’ll introduce you. Lots of old tractors for collectors.
Cmart & Nige: Governor shaft springs Yeah, I didn't want to disassemble the governor as far as I have done. I really slipped up in my research. Miss noticing the rack under the pump timing pin cover (see larger post). I tend to have dropsy at the worst possible moments.. It has track shoes with V grousers and a hole thru the middle, so no easy place to put tools down without a bit of preparation. If I can't get it going with little more effort, I'll take the axles out of the final drives, push it onto a float and bring it home to my workshop. Stuck rack and stuck scroll. Mmm. So if the rack won't move because the scrolls are frozen up, how do you get the rack lined up to get the scrolls out !! If it started 2 years ago after sitting for 10+ years, just my dumb luck if it is something serious. When I get it home, I'll take the pump off and go into a small room with smooth floors and walls. Should be able to find anything that flies off or gets dropped. BTW, just noticed a complete long 3306 out of a Cat 966 loader go for $4,500 on Ritchie Bros. Tempted, but didn't have enough time to research and make some phone calls.
Wise words. You should heed them. From your photo I suspect the solenoid is not a genuine Cat one. The blue plastic on the end gives it away. So any difference in appearance, terminals, etc, is understandable. Certainly there is nothing online that suggests the FIP on an 86G-prefix 973 was ever fitted with one. That could explain part of the reason why the electrics have been butchered.
I know all about health issues having been diagnosed wit a type of bone marrow cancer a couple months ago. Your priorities change in an instant. Oddly one of mine was getting my MX track open. Thankfully a really good friend stepped up and is running the track for me. It will be a while till I can run any machines and when I do I'll have to be pretty careful not to injure my back.
The shutdown solenoid will have been added aftermarket as part of the fire suppression system. And yes, you're right. Someone has sawn the end off to disable it. Just forget about it. How do you get the pump elements out if the rack is stuck out of centre you ask? A fair question, and one that in recent weeks has been much on my mind. There's a couple of strategies. First thing to try is to remove the bonnets from the pump elements. They are held onto the barrel with a spring steel clip. With a bit of brute force you can yank them out. This lets you see the top of the plunger. With the follower on the heel of the cam you then punch the plunger down, turn the cam to push it back up again and repeat until, hopefully, the plunger frees itself. If that doesn't work you have to dismantle the pump so you have access to both ends of the rack and then hammer it into position. You were up for buying new elements anyway so there's nothing really lost by employing such brutish techniques, and what else are you going to do? I suppose there is a risk of knocking a tooth off the rack, but I've not seen it happen. BTW, new pump elements are available aftermarket for not much money.
O ye of little faith. If you have your handy dandy 7S7113 rack setting gauge, you can check for correct rack travel after each element is installed. However with the new scroll pump that we're talking about here, each quadrant has to line up with a pin in the pump housing so it's not as easy to get wrong.
Cmart: Thanks for your thoughts and advice on various issues. Wish I could write such concise and easily understood descriptions. Are you a mechanic or a novelist ? Nige & Cmart: Solenoid and fire suppression system: Now that makes sense. I could weld an extension on the plunger and have it operational as an additional way to stop the motor, but I can’t think of any advantage. Maybe if the the Governor Control lever broke off in my hand, like some slap stick American comedy ? Cmart: Thanks greatly for ideas for freeing up the rack and plungers. That advice alone is worth $100+ an hour for your keyboard time. I reckon you could make a good living as a Cat consultant. Is the rack accessible thru the drive gear on the front of the pump ? Can I give the rack a tap at the front after just removing the pump drive gear cover ? I’m yet to establish if this is the cause of the no fuel delivery (stuck rack or plungers). If all the plungers are not pumping fuel, I initially thought that it must be a stuck rack, but then I reasoned that one stuck plunger (not turning) would stop the rack moving, thus hold the scroll of all the other plungers in the “no fuel” position. Even though the oil on the dipstick looks Ok, there seems to be a bit of oil “gunge” in the governor housing. Suspect sometime in the past some oil change intervals went too long. This “gunge” can’t be good thru those small galleries and components in the governor and injection pump. Still wondering what sort of rack travel I can expect ? Is it about the same as the expected travel of the stem of the governor servo valve ? 1 to 1½” ?
Welder Dave: Yeah same story for all of us. Spend our younger years with good health but insufficient funds to do what we want and inadequate skills and experience to do a job well. Swings the opposite way as we get older. Have skills and experience but then faculties like eyesight starts to limit us. Can't just pick up a tool or a welder hand piece without finding some good reading glasses and in good light. However I wouldn't turn the clock back to when I was 21 and give up my knowledge, experience and skills.
I've worked with a few guys that take all the overtime they can get. Their plan is to make enough money they can retire at around 55 and do the things they always wanted to. The problem is their body isn't up to doing all the things they wanted to do in their 20's and 30's and/or they have health issues. It's nice to have a good job you like and still have time off to do some of the things you want. If you're lucky you'll get a long term job with a few weeks vacation every year and a pension to boot. My partner has been in healthcare for 42 years and her pension was maxed out a couple years ago. She's still working cause she likes her job but buying lots of RRSP's so she isn't taxed to death. She even put some RRSP's in my name. She also has so many holiday days they have to pay her out for some of them. They'd be lost if she took a month or more off on vacation. She's the staffing resources coordinator and very good at her job. There are so many jobs to fill in healthcare it's very stressful for the staffing office. She's the one that sets up all the interviews and does the pre screening of all new hires. With covid it's even more hectic. The facility she works at is getting a multi-million dollar expansion. She might be retired by the time it is finished.
Thank you for that. I was encouraged to read from an early age. I left school at age 16 having been taught the same basics of grammar that everyone else was. Apart from that, I'm a pure autodidact. I'm pretty sure you have to remove the pump from the engine to access the end of the rack. I haven't been able to find a figure for rack travel on your "new scroll" pump. However, on the early scroll pump in my pictures the rack travel is approx. 0.800". I would be surprised if yours wasn't similar.
That's helpful. When I took the rear governor housing off, I was able to grab the end of the governor servo valve and give it a tug. it only moved a ¼" as if it had that much free play. I wondered whether I was putting force directly on the rack by pulling/pushing on the valve. Considering that the valve's main function is to open and closes ports, which allows oil to either side of the piston, the piston being directly connected to the rack, made me think that the valve may not be physically linked to the rack and therefore only have to move that ¼". Then in the manual I read about adjusting the FRC and hooking the sleeve to compress the spring over the valve stem, which it says moves the rack so you can insert the rack positioning tool in the side of pump (under the pump timing access cover). This while the engine is not running. Also the end of the valve stem has to contact the lever (4W-5735), lever (B) in my photos, in a few scenarios. When the valve stem is all the way rearwards, in the situation of maximum fuel, so the FRC can limit travel if required AND all the way forward, in the situation of fuel cut-off. This range of movement on the face of the lever is 19mm (just measured). So now I'm thinking the servo valve stem physically rests against the servo piston (so that when the rack moves rearwards, pulled by the piston, the valve stem is also pushed rearward ? Or even physically linked together ? I can't tell from the schematics and cross sections. In any case, the 19mm ... guess what ... approx. 0.8"
Another ½ day on the Cat 973 Another ½ day on the Cat 973 Accessed the rack at the pump timing access cover. Had to take the battery out and get my head right down low to see it. The slot in the rack was at the very front of the window (cf the photo below). Got a big screw driver in there and tried to lever the rack rearwards. Also gave the screwdriver shaft a few solid hits to see if I could jar the rack backwards. Got a few mm of movement. Tapped it forwards, with a few light taps with a hammer on the end of the governor servo valve. After a couple cycles of this, there was less movement in the rack. Next time, I’ll take the cover off over the drive gear and see if I can access the end of the rack from the front and give it a whack. If not, I’ll be yanking the bonnets out as Cmart suggested. Forgot to check what thread was on the bonnets, so I can make up a screw-on puller to mount onto the top of the bonnets. Anyone ? Also what is the best way to remove the bush that sit above the bonnets ? The D & A manual shows removing with a special tool, but not how they are held in place. Only when I read later, “Tighten the bushing to 140 ft.lbs” do I assume they are screwed in. Cmart, a closer view of the pump you are working on shows a thread at the top of the barrel. I'm guess the Cat tool has a hollow centre to sit over the bonnet and perhaps an external hex to engage the bushing. While degreasing and flushing the top of the pump with some diesel, I didn't notice any detail like that ? Same when I had the injector pipes off the top of the pump the other day. Just look like a tight cylinder of metal around the bonnet ? If I yank the bonnets out, I assume I will destroy the clip (7W-1927 RING-RETAINER) that holds the bonnet and pump barrel together ? When I yank the bonnets out of the top of the pump, what stops the pump barrel being pulled off the top of the plunger, leaving the plunger behind ? Further reading and I found the rack travel figure - “Correct rack travel is 15.7 mm (.618 in)”. D & A manual, first point on p.26.
You need to get used to the idea of buying the special tools because you aint getting it fixed without them. The part numbers are 8T5287 and 8S2244. The retainer has internal splines which engage with the 8T5287. 8S2244 screws onto the bonnet and acts as a support. You also use it as the handle to remove the pump elements or rive the bonnets off. As required. I'll preempt your next question. What if the internal splines are rusted out? Good question. You will have to weld a nut onto the retainer. Yes you will destroy the clip. The plunger will be held into the barrel by three things. A mild interference fit between the return spring and the barrel, an interference fit between the return spring and the plunger retainer, and rust. There is a locating pin (mentioned earlier) which lines up with a slot in the quadrant for assembly purposes. This needs to be lined up again for removal and is the reason the pump element can't be removed with the rack in any old position. If the plunger wasn't rusted to the barrel, I suppose you could pull the barrel off the spring and leave the plunger behind but this would mean pulling on the quadrant against the pin. The pin is tiny and if you break it off then you're in a whole new world of trouble.
Thanks very much. That picture of the Cat tool (8T-5287), alone, tells me so much - “picture worth a thousand words”. I know if you haven’t got the image handy on your computer it’s a rigmarole to post it in the forum. Thanks for your effort. And yes, I “aint getting it fixed without them”. My service manual states 8S4163, but cross references to your P. N o . If I had been more proactive I should have Googled that P N o . and viewed a picture of the Cat tool. Doubt whether the internal splines are rusted off the retaining bush. Climate out here isn’t as corrosive as for you poor buggers on the coast (assumption). Anyway, I now know what to do if they are gone. In what way does tool 8S-2244 act as a support when screwed onto the bonnet ? Yeah, I noted in the manual, the locating pin in the bore of the pump housing for locating the plunger gear teeth (and the dowel for locating the barrel). When I try to “rive” a bonnet out of the pump housing, what chance the barrel and plunger also comes out and breaks the locating pin ? AND without the pin, if the assembler was sure the gear keyed into the rack in the correct position, can the pump operate without the pin ? New word “rive” … my education continues. I thought it was a typo, initially, then I looked it up. Is there a kit that has all these pump special tools ? Do you recommend a source for Cat spare parts ? My closest Cat dealer is Westrac in Dubbo. I’ve had a very helpful interaction with a young fella there, recently, regarding schematics for the hand pump to release the brakes, and many months ago regarding lubricants. Yep, this is my first Cat machine. More familiar with TD24s, very early TD9s, and more recently worked on a BTD8 (82 series). Didn't have the heart to tell my father (now in his 90s) that I had painted his little dozer "Old Cat Yellow". He has been an IH person all his life ... often broaching how the TD24s out performed and were more productive than the contemporary D8. Actually, I think they were D8H, 10 years younger. Bit heavier and more powerful, but they could NOT pull as well under load in a turn. I loved those 2 little leavers between my legs while Cat drivers had to pull steering clutch levers and stamp on brake pedals (from memory ?). I’d like your (and Nige's) thoughts why I was able to start the engine 2 years ago, after sitting 10-15 years, but have these problems now ? The first time, it did go straight to high idle and the Governor control lever had no effect. Implies the rack may have been stuck, but was Ok when I re-started and weeks later.
The bonnet removal tool is a MUST HAVE.. u aren’t getting them loose without it.. The other tool is a waste of 80.00 if u ask me.. I did a 3208 on the engine for a customer awhile back.. I didn’t have the bonnet tool, and told him so.. he wanted me to do the job so he offered to buy it.. I said, Sure, if your willing to buy the tool, I’ll fix your pump.. He went to the cat dealer and they sold him BOTH those tools. I never took the installation tool out of the package.. & he took it back. OH, your going to need an air impact gun to loosen the bonnets.. Trying to loosen them by hand is a no-no.. Each plunger and barrel assembly has a SHIM under each one.. MAKE SURE they stay in their respective cylinders.!!!
The service manual says the spacers (shim) are the same size for each FI pump. Also there is an O-ring between them and the bonnet. For the stroke length of the plunger to be fixed, I assume the O-ring is NOT pinched between the spacer and bonnet, but sits adjacent. However I'm a bit OCD about putting components back exactly where they came from, even bolt locations. You never know if someone has previously stretch a bolt or thread past its elastic limit. Have a couple cordless impact drivers up to 1500 ft.lbs ! Bonnet tool - I'll need a good grip on the bonnet to "rive" it out (thanks Cmart). I'll be acquiring one. How'd you get hold of the bonnets to extract ? Fingers ? Pair of pliers ?
That’s what the other tool is for but I just wiggle it out..w my fingers. The oring goes under the bonnet.
I have to disagree with thepumpguy. The two tools are a close sliding fit together. It prevents the extractor from rocking over and potentially damaging the splines when you're giving it the beanz trying to break the retainer loose. Yes, AFAIK it will run without the pin. The problem is how can you be sure you have it in right. I don't think there is a documented procedure for checking rack travel to confirm it's installed correctly, unlike the "early scroll" pump. I don't know. If there is, the cost will make your eyes water. Plenty of choices for aftermarket. Closest to you will be Don Clark Tractors. Also Tillys of Toowoomba, RD Williams in Brisbane, and others. Again, respectfully disagree. As long as the pump is securely fastened to something (like an engine), you have less chance of collateral damage using hand tools. Yes! The shims alter the timing of each individual pump and are selective. The O ring goes between the bonnet and the threaded retainer. The other internal seals are all metal-to-metal. As with all fuel system components, cleanliness is vital. If there is any doubt about the mating surfaces I will give the spacers a rub on a flat plate covered with 1200 grit paper just to be sure.
Just realised I hadn't answered your query while deleting notification E-mails. Machine Hours - Don't remember the figure, but I recall thinking unremarkable. The machines has been sitting for maybe 15 years. That makes it 15 years younger, wear wise, however the exterior has been knocked about. If it came from a landfill site, it must have had an intermediate life knocking down scrub or timber. Also the electrics are in a mess and I doubt the hour meter would run. Don't know whether that was the case when it was last running. I've had to restore electrical circuits. Fuse holders in a mess, caps missing. There was no power to the start switch and I wasn't able to locate the original wiring to and from the start switch fuse. Had to make up new wiring. I wondered whether it was a bit of sabotage by someone who coveted the machine and hoped to make a low offer ? Both water hoses to the cab heater were cut - I joined them with a ⅝" double ended brass barb.
Good enough for me. Don't like it when a socket or spanner tips off a fastner. Is the gearing so fine that you couldn't judge that the slot in the plunger gear was going down the bore close to where it should be ? No experience here, just my own perception from the service manual pictures. The manual mentions a Rack Positioning Tool to measure rack travel. "A smaller measurement is an induction of incorrect FIP installation". I guess if it was that easy they wouldn't have designed that pin in the pump. Can't be an easy manufacture. I also get it that if 1 tooth off, the motor could race, or maybe even worse ... one cylinder is getting max. fuel while the others are being governed at a lesser fuel volume. Trying to think what that would do to a motor ? Looks like I'll accumulate these Cat tools from aftermarket, eBay, etc. The pump bush (8T5287) is quite cheap O/S (<$10) but shipping takes it up to $40-60. Quite a few other tools required to set the pump and tune. I'll work my way through that maze as I go. I'll be looking for advice, which ones can be fabricated and which are better purchased. 5P4814 - Collet and 6V2014 - Bracket Assembly, comes to mind. Thanks. I'll be making some 'phone calls. Convinces me to bring the machine home to take the injector pump assemblies out, rather than remove the pump. Interesting that the D & A manual says the "Spacers are the same thickness for each fuel injection pump so they can be mixed." However I'll be cautious as per my early post.
My eyes are watering. 6V–4157 Transmission Test Group ≈ $3,000
If you get one element off by one tooth then the issue will be obvious on startup and you can just shut it down. If you are unlucky enough to get three or four elements wrong in the fuel-on direction, then you may find yourself in a runaway situation and have to block off the air intake. Oh. I may be wrong on that then. My apologies. I will have to review it and get back to you.
Yep, sure enough it looks like the "new scroll" pump doesn't call for the individual pumps to be timed with selective spacers. Unlike the "old scroll" pump. This is the only reference I can find that infers that the spacers on the "new scroll" pump have to be installed in their original position.
Ordered 8T5287 - bush wrench and 8S2244 - bonnet extractor, today from DCT, Castlereagh. Not much more than ½ price of the main Cat dealer ... about $75 posted. From this picture found on the Internet, it's apparent from the machined face, that the pump must come off the front gear housing to access the front of the rack. (Cmart right again) I'd rather spend an hour tapping the rack back and forwards then riving out the bonnets. The rack has a tiny bit of movement, so I suspect there is a plunger(s) stuck. Let's hope I can jar them loose, so I can position the rack in the centre and remove the bonnets & plungers the normal way.
Does the K not work on your computer? Cmark not Cmart. He has a wealth of knowledge that is sure nice when you need it.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention. You think you've read something accurately, then continue the error. Can't call it a typo ... keys too far apart. Oh well, least I didn't use Kmart.
You can build yourself a tool to help pull the pumps if they are stuck. Take a fuel line nut and weld a 3 or 4" t-handle on it, a 1/4 bolt is about right. Good luck Bob
They will water even more when you discover 6V-4157 is only the box with the gauges in it. There is another number (could be 6V-4158 but don’t quote me) that contains all the test hoses and couplings, adapters, pressure taps, etc, required to actually connect the test box to a machine. Last time I looked that group was about half the price of a test box. I think it’s called something like a “hose & fittings group”.
Or bend over more?
It would probably be worth pointing out at this stage that neither of the foregoing are absolutely essential. A handful of good quality glycerine-filled gauges of the correct ranges and just the absolutely necessary hoses & pressure taps for the OP’s machine would likely do the job just as well for maybe 1/10th of the price or less. Maybe Cmark can suggest somewhere to ask.
Actually a 6V4157 is a test group and it comes with 9 hoses with couplings and 9 gauges . Don't think 6V4158 is a tool number. The 1U5481and 82 was a popular transmission box and adaptors but I bet its twice as much. Bob
That's the one I was thinking of, and you're right it's probably a lot more than $3k for the two.
If you have done any testing on power shift transmissions having the gauges where you can watch all of them at the same time is important ,I guess hyrastat testing is about the same so at the least mount the gauges on a bar. Bob
I agree. Having all the gauges in one location makes watching pressures easier. The box on the footplate next to the cab door was the common location. I've seen tape or magic markers used to label the gauges with things like P1, P2, etc, so that there was no mistaking which gauge was reading what test point. The only fly in the oitment was on machines with remote pressure taps where some bright spark had reconnected the test lines to the wrong places after something like a transmission or converter replacement. Mounting the gauges on a bar for a home-made setup would be a good idea.
Nothing wrong with that plan. Just remember to break the element retainers loose whilst the pump is still on the engine. If anyone is interested, on the "old scroll" pump, you can get to both ends of the rack with the pump in situ. If we're optimistically jumping forward to troubleshooting the hystat, my choice of gauges is the standard Cat bottom entry offering. Nice quality and a good price and availability. I don't favour the Cat hoses though. I find them a bit bulky. I prefer to couple the gauges with the Parker microbore style hoses.
I had to buy some of the test fittings they use on processor heads and the hyd. shop carries what you are talking about. Picked up some of their hoses, can roll up a 6 footer and put in my shirts pocket. Bob
You have to keep in mind that you are measuring pressure and not flow, so yes in most cases thin tubing is just fine as long as it is rated with a safety margin for the pressures you are testing for on the machine.
Thanks for that info, Nige. I started this before the last ½ doz posts, but I’ll post it anyway. In regard to working thru the procedure for troubleshooting and setting up the hydrostatic transmission (HT): Are the test nipples on the hydrostatic transmission the same as the nipple on the fuel pump manifold (sorry no photo ATM - sits between #6 bonnet valve and return fuel line outlet ). It looks like a miniature version of hydraulic couplers found on small track-loaders or excavators. I think they’re called “Flat Face couplers”. The one on the FIP is about ½ - ⅚” OD. In most of the photos of 3306 FIPs on the Internet, there is a simple plug installed in this location. (I haven’t gone looking for the HT test points yet.) I suspect these test couplers are called Flat Face G¼ (Internet browsing) and the ♀︎ couplers are available aftermarket. Is it a proposition to fabricate the test hoses myself, or get them made-up ? (I think the last few posts answer that - thanks all.) I note the test kit has only 3 gauges - 3500 and 8,700 psi and a differential pressure gauge. I glean from the HT section of the service manual (SENR5365 Mar ’95) that I will probably need the following pressure gauges - 50, 100, 600 psi plus the 2 higher pressure gauges mentioned above and a differential gauge up to 200 psi. (Reminds me of an Air Speed Indicator in an aircraft - just a differential pressure gauge, with different scale units.) How many gauges would be conveniently connected at the same moment, while working thru the HT testing and adjustment (without being too tedious removing/installing) and thus how many hoses and what length ? (I note the suggestions of setting up a display bar.) Going thru the HT System Operation, Testing & adjustment manual, reminds me of my head spinning when I first read it 2 years ago … still does. In regard to the FIP, many of the described procedures in the service manuals with Cat tools, you can understand what is being achieved. In some cases I’d be prepared to have a go with my own made up tools. The trouble is that for some procedures you need to undertake it with the special Cat tools just to appreciate what is intended.
Sorry I got my wires crossed on that test group. I was thinking of the transmission test box (see Bob's post above). The contents of the 6V-4157 Test Group are listed below. There are a total of 9 gauges but only 3 different Part Numbers. Any of the part Numbers listed below should pop up on a Google search so you can see exactly what they are.
FYI I don't see any differential pressure gauges in that list above. 8T0855 is 0-4,000kPa (580psi) 8T0861 is 0-60,000kPa (8700psi) 8T0863 is 0-250kPa (36psi)
Penny has dropped. The 8T-0839 differential pressure gauge is contained in the 1U-5470 Engine Pressure Gp, NOT in the 6V-4157 Test Gp.
The hydrostat troubleshooting can be largely carried out with one 580 psi gauge. There's a bit of tedious starting and stopping the engine and jiggery-pokery changing the gauge connector around involved, but it can be done. It's quicker and simpler with two or three gauges connected simultaneously but not worth the extra money if it's a one-off gig for you. The 8700 psi gauge is only needed if you get into the high pressure loop, but problems aren't as common here. The 36 psi one is for checking motor case drain pressure and you will probably only need it if the machine won't move at all. As far as the FIP goes, if you haven't disturbed any of the adjusting screws or replaced any springs, just put it back together as it was and it should be good enough.
Yeah, sorry about that. Did a search for 6V4157 on the Internet which came up with 1U5796 on ch-part.com. Jumped in without reading closely and also because a lot of the procedures in HT System Operation, Testing & Adjustment manual (SENR5365 Mar ’95) mentions differential pressures. The differential pressure gauge in that group was 1U5793 . All a moot point. Those gauges and the number of each in your previous post make sense when you read thru the manual. Thanks.
Makes sense when reading the manual. Great advice. Doesn't cost a lot for a few aftermarket gauges and no doubt some would be better with different length hoses. Assume 600 psi might be an odd range, so my choices might be limited. Being retired and this a restoration project I can progress slowly thru the diagnostic and trouble shooting steps one at a time. I do have some serious work for it. A 30,000 m3 earth tank. I say “tank” rather than a dam because it is a hole in the ground and the earth to be spread and levelled around it. Due to putting topsoil aside and bringing it back, I’ll probably handle about 50,000 m3. Some friends believe I should use a scraper, but not so easy with a 15m deep hole and 3:1 batters. I also have a 75t excavator (see avatar) which I may use when I get deep ? Yeah, good advice and makes sense. Haven’t interfered with any settings. As long as the engine achieves correct revs in various scenarios.
500psi might not be so odd - and probably cheaper. In general you are going to be measuring pressures probably up to maybe 400psi. You've got the specs in the manual, what do they say.? If you go with aftermarket gauges just make sure they are glycerine-filled. It takes away the needle vibrations and makes pressures easier to read.
As per Data Recording Sheet on p.117 & 118: Case press - 0-2 psi Drive press - 200 +40/-15; 5500±300; 500+200 psi ... depends what test you’re doing. Charge press - 200 +40/-15; 125 psi min. Servo supply press - 355±10 psi Brake press. 0-10 below charge press. Bearing in mind that it's not a good idea to take gauges to max. deflection and looking at that list: Couple 20 psi, couple 300 psi, couple 500 psi, couple 1000 psi, couple 8000 psi ? 500 would do for the 300, but if I have to purchase them, may as well have 300 psi for the better resolution. I have some old (read “quality”) test gauges in a kit I picked up at a clearing sale 30+years ago. Just ducked out to the shed: 120, 300 psi - 2" old style with easy read psi scale. 200 psi - 3" Empeo made in Germany 500, 3000 psi - 4" flange gauges with larger psi scale, Empeo made in Germany. 60 psi - 2½" glycerine 500 psi - probably for refrigeration work 200 psi digital 15 psi - 40mm gauge for measuring turbo boost. Obviously some of these gauges will be unsuitable. Range of threads. Probably ⅛ and ¼ BSP, but my luck some may be NPT. The large German gauges look about ⅜ pipe thread size and are parallel, so who knows what they may be ? I also have a couple metres of high pressure grease line off a WA600 loader. Some reward for being a hoarder. Pipe threads and grease nipple threads … Oh joy ! I help my brother service his Kubota U55-4 and SVL75. The excavator, between the machine, the tilting hitch and some of the tools, we’ve found grease nipples with metric, BSP and NPT threads ! Some times I wonder if it could be easier if the Germans had won the war !
Pump bush wrench - 8T5287 and Bonnet Extractor - 8S2244 arrived today. Now I need to get the machine home.