Has anyone had problems with dust in their Cat C series cabs? I've had a number of issues with dust entering the cab from around the windows and door frame. Machine went back to dealer for a week and it came back with more of the same leaks even though they pulled and sealed around the windows. Dust and saw dust from grinding is still finding its way into the cab. Just wondering if anyone else has had problems.
Have you checked the filters for the heater/air conditioner? I don't know of any excavator that is sealed up real well. Most people latch the door and front window open anyway. I also haven't known anyone to get worked up about a substance with which they are making money on. Good Luck!
He's probably talking about skidloaders, this is the skidloader forum. And yes, lots of dust comes in the cab. I know on our 297 the entire front door is made of flimsy glass, and it doesn't seal well. Lots of moisture too. Ran it the other day in the rain and my legs were soaked, don't know where it was coming from either.
Dust in Cab Thats the biggest reason I bought a Fecon, it has a pressurized cab. If this system is working correctly, it will keep most of the dust out. I heard the stories from Cat, ASV, etc owners about being completly covered with dirt and dust on a dry day of mulching. Again, make sure you check your filters. I have heard about adding a fan to the equipment, to create some sort of pressurization. I read it on one of these forums, but not sure which one. Check out the mulching site for this info. Goodluck
Not trying to be a wiseA%^ but aren't the CAT C series the first "pressurized sealed" cabs in the industry. I have to think that they would have tested them before they made that claim. I'm sure there is something that the dealer is missing.
We have a takeuchi 150 skid steer with the full cab heat/ AC and the dang dust still manages to get in the cab somehow. But it's alot better than no cab at all!
Not meaning to speak on behalf of YellowDog, but one of the reasons he switched to the CAT was the new "pressurized cab" touted so highly in the new C series CAT machines. Had it come from the factory like this without a trip to the dealer, that would have lead me to believe something was overlooked during the build. Considering that it has already been looked at again by the dealer, that might mean the design has issues. I doubt that both the factory and the dealer would be missing something that significant. Also he runs a grinder so he isn't really making his money in the "dirt". Not that is reason to accept a leaky cab design. I do push dirt and a leaky cab pisses me off as well.
I'm seconding digdeep here as well... the pressurized cab should be working and it's not. I'm out of ideas -- I've brought this up to Cat as well, so I'm really hoping it gets addressed. Entirely.
And I didn't mean to seal off this thread... people, keep supplying opinions or your own experiences!
The point of the C series was supposed to be "fully sealed and pressurized cab" = no dust. And for those who think dust from grinding isn't anything to get worked up over..tell that to my allergist. I really have lost my voice all winter and so far this spring I have been suffereing as well. I have run 9 cab and air machines since 2000 but this is my first cab touted as sealed and pressurized and I paid more than I wanted to for that technology. In theory, you should be semi clean after a day or work pushing dirt or grinding. Dirt is finer, so those guys, if there is a universal problem, will be really suffering in the summer when their AC filters clog up.
Yes. I put new filters in but suspect that is an area where dust enters the system. Cat C series system is supposed to be a closed, sealed and pressurized system. Mine says it is pressurizing according to a manometer but the shop was unable, after a week, to get all the windows and door sealed to my satisfaction even though it tested out well with a smoke bomb. In the shop, it may have worked but I suspect the machine's vibrations and bouncing lend to the door bouncing as well as the windows in the frames thus allowing dust to enter intermittently. Also, the clean air AC filter has me concerned. Cat even replaced my door which seals better than the first one but still not perfect upon close inspection and during operation. I'm looking for tight fit because my contract said "sealed and pressurized" and that is one of the big reasons I bought a CAT mostly because of my allergies, loss of my voice from allergies, and eye problems I got from running a bobcat which was sealed up fairly well but not good enough. Hydraulic hp was secondary to comfort so I am pushing for a comfortable cab. I have been doing this since 2000, so I know a little about brush mowing and enclosed cabs. I decided to switch to CAT because of the promise of a sealed and pressurized cab.
Everyone seemed to overlook the little holes on either side of the cab that were completely open. I have seen 3 new machines with those holes. We sealed ours up but that wasn't the main issue. I suspect poor fitup between ABS clean air filter and it's duct and poor seals between windows and frame. If I can get to the bottom of this, it may benefit a lot of guys who get sealed cabs whether it's CAT, CASE, Bobcat (in a year or so) or other brands as they all seem to have similar windows. The CAT cab really is a separate pod and fairly well sealed up from a visual standpoint but dust, and lots of it, seems to get into the cab. I attached some pics of dust and where I think some of it comes from but can't figure out how other than when the machine vibrates the windows fast enough to allow small gaps to occur between the seal and the window frame. This is after 2 hours of grinding. No window opened or door opened in that time and I started with a clean cab. It is worse after a long day!
Those little filters they use for cab air filtration are a joke on all heavy equipment. All the manufacturers put a 12" x 12" square filter on the suction side of the heater and call that a cab pressurizer. What makes it worse is that they hide the filter under a bunch of plastic and no one even knows there is a filter in there to maintain. On the other side I guess I'm having a little bit of a hard time about an issue of dust in the cab. I have put pressurizers on excavators, wheel loaders, log stackers, feller bunchers and logging shovels. They all end up suffering the same thing. The filters plug up and someone blows them out with a nozzle on an air hose. This puts little holes in the filter and dust now gets into the cab. Now the owners go out and have to buy new filters and they complain like hell about the cost and usually when the pressurizer dies they just don't fix it. I suppose you could buy a big Donalson engine air cleaner and hook that up to a fan. You might even put a Turbo Precleaner on it but I don't think there is enough air flow to make that work well. In any case by the time you get the thing engineered and installed you are looking at a couple thousand dollars plus maintenance costs to keep the thing working. I've come to the conclusion over the years that operating heavy equipment is just a dirty business and there is just no way to get around that. If you are worried about the clothes you wear to work or breathing a little dust, then find some other way to make a living.
John C, I have to disagree some. For the money everyone is paying for this new equipment there shouldn't be any issues. If the manufacturer's want to advertise 92.7% dust free, fine but there is many health issues with the fine particles/dust. My old machine was awful (not pressurized), after a day doing dirt work coughing up dirt just made me feel bad.
An advertised, sealed, pressurized cab is a way around dust and dirt if it works as advertised. If it is advertised as such, it should work as such. As far as breathing a little dust, you can go and do what you want with your lungs. Maybe some contractors like filthy operator environments and dirty fingernails but I prefer to work in a clean, comfortable cab where I can be productive and creative without sneezing, burning, and coughing up crap from grinding trees, brush and dirt. If a guy wants to settle for black lungs and filth, let them have at it, but I choose to make a living doing what I am good at and keep myself as clean as possible at the same time.
I agree that with the prices paid for equipment today it should perform as advertised. For several years at the South Texas Farm and Ranch Show I have visited at length with some guys that use skid loaders to shear, stack and rake brush. They were using Bob Cats with success and tried a Cat with terrible results. The chief complaint was poorly sealed cabs being water and dust infiltration. Numerous trips to the dealer cound never rectify the problems. The solution for them was to tell the dealer to keep the POS and they went back to Bob Cat even though the dealer is 120mi. away.
It would appear that maybe CAT oversold this new cab. If it rains in your cab it sure isn't going to keep dirt out. Maybe this pressurized thing is not all that it is made out to be. I will be demoing a CASE pressurized cab as soon as one hits the lot. I am curious to see if they were any more successful.
CAT should have been able to design a pressurized cab, they only already have the it as standard in half their equipment lineup. I have a feeling the engineers didn't change enough about windows/door to make it seal. If it's anything cat i was in before i could see how vibrations could cause dust to come in. I was really looking forward to the new cabs, but i guess i have to wait a little longer.
When I ran Bobcat, rain and car washes would find it's way into the cab. The Cat cab let water in from the car wash, but so far with a 1/4in rain, it didn't let a drop in.
Sounds to me like some of you guys could use a desk and the new remote control bobcat came out with. You could sit in a office and run your machine. I mean, I dont like to get nasty, but I move dirt for a living and am probably going to get a little on me and thats part of it. And theres a plus side to it, women like a man with a little dirt on them!!!!
I don't think anyone here minds getting dirty, but the main point was that he paid extra money for a machine that was advertised as "the first sealed pressurized skid skeer cab in the industry". I would think it was a bonus if I bought a machine that was better than most when it comes to dust in the cab, but I would be upset if they sold the machine to me with the claim that it was dust free due to being sealed and pressurized.
oh, okay! I hate getting nasty. What if a hot chick doesn't dig the dirt?
I am concerned about the $650/cd/xm radio that is full of saw dust! Specs say "sealed and pressurized cab option". I have determined that the cab is pressurized but it isn't much. It is the sealing part I am wondering about and the dealer has been responsive thanks to my salesman who has helped out. I am simply asking, for those operators who may have bought, rented, or used a C series CAT Skidsteer, whether or not they have had similar experiences with dust in the cab enclosed cabs. "If you don't have a sealed or pressurized cab (and your woman likes a dirty guy anyway) then you probably won't have a good reference point of what I am asking about. The question isn't about playing in the dirt, or moving dirt, or smearing dirt on your face so you can pick up a chick. I don't do much of that since I live in a rocky area and long ago decided to let the dozer operators beat up their machines which were designed for that type of work. Instead, I grind brush, eat brush, and shred brush about 1/2 to 3/4 of the time. It's a dusty and ultimately unhealthy job if you are breathing the sawdust, so, in an effort to give my lungs a break, I invested about 20k more than I did with Bobcat so that I could sit in a machine and not breathe sawdust all day. And no, I'm not a surgeon or TB patient so I am not going to wear a mask all day.
Please post as soon as you demo the case!
I don't agree, how much more productive am I when there is no dust, climate controlled (air or heat)? 25%, 50% Its hard to say but I don't need to look like I rolled in the dirt to run equipment. I was thinking about this today, to run the machine in air or heat not getting dirty and not having to wear ear plugs would be awesome, that means I can run equipment for the next 40 years.
Exactly. I run a RC50 and I can't put a price tag on the benefits of having a suspension but I can tell you that a guy running a machine with a suspension vs. a rigid machine will have less wear and tear on his body over time.
I am use to running machines with no cab and no suspension sun up to sun down, and was surprised how much fatigue was attributable to the environment. Now, with cab and suspension I do miss adjusting my cap, wiping my brow, fidgeting in the seat, clearing junk out of my eyes and swatting bugs but, at the risk of being less a man, I am a better operator. jmf
I have a 226B2 and my CD player is dust free.....and so is the rest of the cab until I get into it The dust/rain sealing is very good. Sounds to me like the fan/pressurisation system might be the source/cause of your dust ingestion. If its got even a tad of pressure no dust can come in...unless its forced in. an the ole lady says "Urrrrrr...go an have a shower...your all smelly"
don't forget about bee's, holding your breath when the dust kicks up, and frost bite in the winter!
Ah yes, a few more of my less favorite things. And we cannot forget the branches in the face and the larger pieces of dirt thrown by springing and popping things under the ground. I don't have a pressurized cab and do get a puff of dust once in awhile just to remind me what I'm missing. If I paid $$$$ for a more effective system this little bit of dust would be very irritating, and I would be wondering what invisible things are contaminating my environment, like allergens etc. jmf
No problem, replace OEM cab filter with a HEPA filter and your good to go. The cabs on my machines are too porous to be concerned with such things. The heaters work real well though, which to me is most important.
I had a miserable day today while grinding. Got it figured out, as for the cause of most of the dust, and CAT says they have some solutions. My dealer has at least been on top of things and some of Tigerotor's advice has helped me search for the leaks. I figured out that as the cab vibrates, the doors and windows vibrate with a fast frequency that creates small gaps that let the majority of the saw dust fall into the cab.
Here's a better picture from 5/2 after the last post. This is what I'm talking about. Cat supposedly has a fix. We'll see and I will keep the forum updated in case anyone else has issues while brush mowing or working in really dusty environments.
If they had a separate frame, where the windows slide in like the big excavators, that wouldn't be a problem, then they would have dual seals with the glass in the middle, but space might be at a premium, so that was the only way. Even Bobcat's sliding windows are done wrong, the felt gasket just gets ripped or worn out.
My suggestion would be 1 piece windows for people that work in the woods or in really dusty environments. What do you think of this alternative idea if CAT can't get the windows to seal? I want to get lexan cut to fit for the outside of the window frame (over rops mesh) and attach it through window frame bolt holes then seal all the way around the lexan with a high quality silicone. I would only be 1/4" thick, UV stabalized lexan and would be professionally cut. I can't think of anything else that is going to stop the dust. My AC is already not working as it should at only 95 hrs and I have replaced filters already. My cab smells bad {not from me }, and it just seems dirty. I don't think I am supposed to wash out the C series cab especially with the radio (which I think I want to get a marine style cover for.
Is the dust entering there or is it just a place where dust collects? jmf
dust falls like rain from top of window frame and from the felt area between windows and gets pulled up from the bottom rail as the machine vibrates. The front door lets dust fall in, too but supposedly they can resolve that.
Here's how I deal with pressurized/un-pressurized cabs. Parts include a Parker Pump, pieces from the vacuum cleaner that I never use and a surplus military chemical warfare mask. It may not look pretty and you will still get dirty. But the air you breathe will still be clean. No more dirt buggers :thumbsup
You get an A for innovation. I used to think that a survive-aire and mask was what I needed! I just can't see myself spending the money I did only to end up waring a mask all day and scaring my customers!
your problems with the cat are just like our problems with the ASV we have...I dont know where you are located but there is a dealer in tenn called Vermeer of Tenn or something like that...they make their own cab pressure systems and they WORK..we tested a rc100 with the kit out there with a gyrotrac head (we went out there to test the gyrotrac gt18) no dust in the cab and the ac was WAY better than ours which feels almost like a heater now...i also feel like a machine costing over 50grand should work as advertised...but I will admit that if I am doing anything other than mulching I will leave my windows open...i get to cooped up otherwise!! ha ha
It would seem to me that if the cab was truly pressurized nothing would come in . Small gaps would have air leaving the cab not entering- but I have never had the pleasure of haveing one
that is supposed be the point. Any small gaps would be protected by the pressure difference.
A pressurised system should blow out through any gaps. there has to be some room for the air to exit the cab or you will be working in a diving bell. If i had built the thing the outlet type vent would be on the bottom so no dust will fall into the cab. It really sounds like the fan or whatever that is supposed to give positive pressure in cab isn't putting out enough to keep everything blown awy from the windows. in one pic it looked like a good amount of dust by the climate control vents. I agree you may have a leak downstream of the blower. you could have a duct crimped shut as well if they used a flexible type :beatsme . Something to look at i guess hope this helps. If ya get too fed up send the poor wayward thing to me she'll have a good home.:cool2
Holt CAT is going to pick up my machine again and see where they can make adjustments to the cab. If the dust intrusion wasn't so severe, I probably wouldn't make a big deal out of it but I have already plugged my A/C condenser at 100hrs which means I'm damaging what is supposed to be a closed, "clean" system. I'll keep the thread posted on the progress. Holt has been very responsive about this even if CAT corporate didn't have a solution.
Well yellowdog have they given you any intelligent information about the cab? Hope you get it figured out and everything. for some reason a cab wouldn't help me much. My wife and my mom were commenting the other day about my ability to get dirty. They said I could get dirty in the house. I told them if they cleaned like they should I wouldn't have that problem (both are neat freaks by the way. won't have a dirty ouse) That got some feathers ruffled let me tell ya.
I kmow this doesn't help right now but there are some items under production that will help all of your problems. How dirty is your outer air filter compared to the debris ingestion? If you put a new filter in the outside is the debris intrusion the same?
bear I get dirty in the house, too, but prefer to stay clean in the cab. My eyes get irritated from the fine dust and sawdust and I can be a lot more productive when I am cool and comfortable. If the CAT cab was truly sealed and pressurized, for the most part, it would be a pleasure to be in. I was in mine for over 8 hours yesterday moving brush, uprooting brush, and grinding a few piles. I had a layer of fine dirt on me which tells me the windows still leak dust (you can see where it does and I am fairly certain the A/C system is pulling debris in. After all, the condenser was already clogged yet my recirculating filter and clean air filter seemed to be in good order and had been recently replaced. Cat does not have a definitive fix, yet. They are picking up my machine, providing me a loaner, and going to expedite looking for the problem. I won't sign off on it as fixed until I know it doesn't leak dust. That was a huge part of my decision to spend 20k more than I did with Bobcat. I wanted to be comfortable and was told it really was sealed and pressurized..says so on the contract I signed. I can't say enough good things about HOLT cat so far. they have been very responsive and helpful. You wouldn't think that such a large organization would provide personal service but they have a good organizational structure. Heck, last night I needed a part for my mower and they called me back after hours and got the order in for me so I can be back in business with the attachment on Tuesday. That is good service. I am hoping that the service dept is the same way.
Glad to hear you have a good dealer. My dealer is the pits can't get anything done or questions answered. I'll be finding another one even if it means going to Knoxville or lexington. I totally agree with you on getting this fixed. I hate a machine that doesn't work right or is designed badly, which all too often happens, and is why I'm working on my mechanical engineering degree.
its a piece of heavy equipment. you guys are spoiled thats all it amounts to you find things to moan about its not a caddilac it works in the dust and dirt your gonna get dirty bobcat it supposably coming out with a pressurized cab also but you work in the dirt you dont want to get dirty go get an office job
Hmm I grew up on a farm and every piece of equipment that had a cab on it had no problems with the intrustion of dust. So if he bought some thing with a pressurized cab advertised that is what he should receive.
We have swapped the outer air filter and had the same results. I didn't get any more because they were supposed to pick up machine. The filter gets plugged pretty quick, however, when grinding but it is part of my maintenance to clean it out. I shut off AC system before opening it, however, to keep debris down. I'm willing to wait for a fix if CAT is willing to stand behind the product I have now and if there is a timeframe on when the fix will be here +/-. I know the dust doesn't come in from the same places. I feel a fine dust get over my hands (comes from front vents) so I know something is being pulled into the system. The areas between my fingers get dust and grit on them throughout the day and if the light catches it just right, you can see dust coming out of the vents. Holt is supposed to pick the machine up this week. Like I said, Holt has been very responsive but unfortunately, they haven't seen this problem again. It's the Bobcat gods at work! They didn't want me to switch to CAT!
If you purchase a machine advertised as pressurized and filtered it should be just that- Dust free.
If you paid $20k less, the dirt wouldn't be a problem. When I drive a motorcycle I do not complain about getting wet in the rain, but when I drive my car I would object to a single drop. Maybe if the Cat dealer was a real man he wouldn't complain if your purchase check was $20,000 short. Hold their feet to the fire. jmf
You know not of what you speak, my friend. Cadillac is spelled with one "D". :0) seriously, I personally paid for a sealed and pressurized, state of the art cab. If I wanted to stay dirty all day, I would have stayed with Bobcat. Why all the anger in your words? I could get an office job if I want. I have a degree and experience in an office but I prefer to work outside. I just don't want the outside to get into the inside of my pretty little cab that isn't designed to be hosed out (other than the floor board) so maybe it really is supposed to be sealed and pressurized but just doesn't work right. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't heard many CAT C series guys chime in on this so I take it the ones that are complaining about me and others making an issue of a new design not working correctly (IN MY CASE it could just be a bad something or the other) are doing so without the benefit of having used a sealed and pressurized cab to compare.
The guys that work at the nuclear plant don't want to glow in the dark, I guess they are just whiners too? Fighter pilots want their ejection seats to work, I guess they should suck it up and ride it down into a smoking hole? What's the difference in paying more for a cab that was advertised to be dust free and isn't verses a machine thats supposed to lift 4,000 lbs and can only lift 3,000 lbs? Neither is working as it's supposed to. Would you bitch to the guy on the tool truck if your wrench's didn't quite fit? I mean jeez, you're a mechanic, aren't you supposed to bust the crap out of your knuckles?
:exactly
Truly a mechanic, a technician would not say that sort of thing. You learn allot about someones pride when they repair machines for you. But when I used to work on the machines that had transverse engines I wasn't very happy either.
Just think of all the money they'd save on night lights!:drinkup
that went over my head.
I think he's talkin bout the glow in the dark thing. I totally agree yopu paid for the system you should get yer money's worth. The dealer seems to be upholding his end of the deal tryin to fix the problem, so yer good there. I'm curious to know how this is resolved in the end...
i know that!, NOW... Duh
Stopped at my local Cat dealer, Milton Cat in Hopkinton, NH yesterday to pick up some parts, and they had a few C Series skid steers out front on display. Got into a 277C, nice cab, but the seal at the bottom of the glass door had a 1/8" crack along the bottom, not sealing at all. Cat should pay more attention to their QC when fitting the doors. Must be a hinge adjustment to make it tight. Looked to be a quality seal, just not fitted right!
I found out that you have to make sure the door closes on the second clasp around the door striker but mine still didn't seal too good and was replaced by cat. I have been without my machine for 10 days now. The first time, it was gone for about a week. Cat had ordered some parts but a week later, they hadn't come in. Not sure when it will be up and ready but I don't hold much confidence now that it will be sealed do to some flaws I see in the cab window system.
I'm surprised that Cat is not a lot more embarrassed then their response demonstrates. Maybe you should move up the ladder and talk directly to factory management. jmf
I'm going through the dealer and they are trying but I am not sure they know what all the problems are or how to fix them. Cat corporate has not been very helpful and I have not been given the opportunity to talk directly but rather they forward my emails and complaints. I have given CAT this second opportunity to fix the issue because they did get me a loaner and wanted a second opportunity. If the machine fails to perform as advertised after this, I'm going to ask for my money back or hire a lawyer since the machine has had so much down time and I am paying a premium for features that do not work as they should. My loaner doesn't seal great either and that lends me to think there are some problems with C series pressurized cabs that have not been addressed. I don't want perfection in a machine as I know that is unattainable. I want it to perform as advertised, promised, and as outlined in the salesman's presentation. It has been both difficult and frustrating to have the down time from on site evaluations that didn't solve anything to swapping the machine for a loaner. I have enough down time because of weather factors, parts problems with other machines, and time needed for maintenance so I don't need the extra down time from a machine that has problems. I have pointed out to CAT that I have had more down time with this machine since April than I had with 3 years of (3) Bobcat S300's used in the same applications.
Before you sue, you should talk to Cat Corporate as they will be named in the suit. The manufacturer tends to ignore these things in hopes their dealers can handle it, so don't assume Cat is working on this as hard as they should be. If you are serious about suing you don't need to threaten, Corporate will know your serious when you explain the problem, the failed attempts and hear about your damages. jmf
This post at least in part convinces me what I suspected all along and that is that there is design issues with this cab. The fact that the loaner machines are not any better than the machine that you bought seals the deal for me. They will have to alter the existing design to make it as promised, because obviously as they come from the factory is not as they promised you it would be. They perhaps need to increase the positive pressure inside the cab to overcome the leaky door seals and it also sounds like the clean air intake in the cab has issues, that could be more difficult to fix. I personally think CAT will soon reach a point that they will no longer be willing to make it right. After numerous efforts to improve the situation they will have no choice but to come back and say this is the best we can do. What happens from there will be interesting. CAT may let you out of their machine by choice or force you to use the legal system to make them take it back.
bobcat pro rates the machines when this happens and makes you pay a difference for a new machine when you are unhappy with the one you have due to their assembly problems our just bad factory parts or just a lemon machine dumb to do but i can see there point they don't want to eat all the wear on the machine but if your unhappy with it i don't see why you would go back to it but then again all the prototypes they make they destroy so either way it comes out the same i think could be wrong.
If CAT took back Yellow Dogs machine they would be able to resell it to someone who is not expecting a totally dirt free cab. It does not appear to be a lemon at least, it just is not what the buyer thought he was buying. The issue of course is the depreciation that the machine has taken. That is where the rub will be. CASE will often deduct a set $ figure for the hours on the machine and charge the customer for those hours and the rest they will eat, depending on the situation. CAT will likely do something similiar or perhaps as mentioned to keep him quiet maybe they will just take the machine, refund the money and walk away. If there are other cases like this they will likely see where they went wrong. Otherwise they will chalk it up to one of those cases were the machine simply did not met the customers expectations through no fault of the machine (of course that would be CATs take on it). Maybe they need to educate their marketing and sales people on just what customers can really expect with this new cab.
I haven't threatened to sue anyone because HOLT CAT, the dealer, has been trying to resolve the issue but it's an option if the machine doesn't seal the dust out. Since it is going to take extensive modifications (which may or may not hold up in the brush), I haven't decided if I will sign off on anything as "fixed" unless it works without a lot of extra effort and maintenance on my part. Holt has tried, I will give them that, but I read some of the corporate emails and they point to a lack of understanding and no fix. Holt CAT is adding a snorkel to my AC system. I really do not like that idea because it isn't part of the original design and I didn't much like the brush modifications that seem to have failed after less than 200 hrs. on the loaner machine I have. I am not a happy camper and I am trying to be positive but I will be damned if I am going to pay a prorated rate for a machine that didn't work from day 1, has caused me down time, and through no fault of mine (Holt was waiting on a loaner and CAT corporate to make a decision or send some repair info), has had to be used so I can make the payment which is about 600 bucks more than I had to make with my Bobcat. Part of having a good machine is feeling good about it day in and day out. Though Bobcat's s300's frustrated me when running a brush mower, and I wasn't all that comfy in the cab after many years, I felt like I could take the machine anywhere and not worry about breakdowns or not being able to breathe in my cab. I am unwilling to bend over on this one...not after all the promises, the Bobcat bashing from the sales people, and being told flat out, that I was getting the best machine out there that would be backed by the biggest machinery manufacturer and Holt Cat's integrity and commitment to doing the right thing. Doing the right thing is not letting a major purchase ruin a small business owner. Here's how I see it: If I don't have a high flow, heavy duty skid steer, I can't: Shear and stack large trees to feed my Vermeer BC2000 Can't grind the stumps Can't mulch the underbrush, brushpiles, old stumps, etc. Can't build and maintain the driveways I currently take care of, Etc., Etc., Etc. I will be the first to compliment CAT on a good fix or a job well done. I have done so with Holt since they have been helpful seeking a loaner but I still don't think, that without extensive modifications, I will have a sealed and pressurized cab. While I am grateful for the loaner, I am not producing 90 hp to keep my pump up to speed for my grinder, my ROC is much less, and I have already had down time for a flat because of the stock tires. I am also without my radio, my fire extinguishers and tinted moon roof which means I am doing without some of my creature comforts. Some may say I'm spoiled, but I paid for it!
I heard today that ASV will be releasing a true forestry edition PT100 sometime in June. The machine is supposed to have a "certified" sealed and pressurized cab, a SAE certified forestry cab, a automatic reversing fan, forestry guarding, steel hood, higher hydraulic pressures, hinged reinforced belly pans for engine bay cleanout, guarding for the hydraulic quick couplers, and it can still be used with standard skid steer attachments. They are supposed to make a formal announcement around the middle of the month.
ASV's machine sounds like it would fit the bill except for the conditions we work in here. Lots of sharp cedar stumps and lots of sharp rocks including sharp flint which will slice through most rubber. I imagine guys in other areas will be happy to hear about this machine. Not sure what a certified forestry cab is. I don't think 10k lb machines should be knocking over trees capable of flipping or crushing the machine but I'm sure there are those that do it.
We've heard from some on what their stance is on this, and I thought I would chime in as well. I think you are being completely reasonable on this. As you have stated, you paid for the option, it was advertised and promised to work a certain way, and therefore it should. If it isn't performing the way it is supposed to, then don't stop until you have satisfaction on the matter. I think this is the road you are going to follow, and I also think you should be commended for it. I'm also glad your dealer is working with you on this. Keep us informed on how it progresses. Brian
The thing I toil with on this subject is how much down time do I endure while CAT has a learning curve on my machine? Yes, I'm grateful they want to work with me but realistically, I am a small mom and pop company with big dreams and I can't afford the down time. I put my machine into service March 31. It broke down the first day overheating. Bad fan speed. Cat was responsive and came out to my place the next day but it took all day to diagnose and fix, and then test the fan speed because it was a new series machine and needed an extra set of hands to help. As soon as I started grinding in dusty conditions, it became apparent the cab didn't seal well. Down time for that while they came out and adjusted my door. Cat took my machine in for a week and brought me a loaner but loaner had issues and had a few hours down time with that plus the swap. Machine has had issues (clogged AC evaporator) and other problems related to the dust that = more down time while they came out (yes, I'm grateful for the service call) but the fix lasted less than 8 hours before AC quit again because of the dust leakage and then the machine went back in. It will be 2 weeks this thursday and no resolution. That's a total of 3 full weeks, plus the service down time in the field plus the time needed to get the loaner machine acceptable to do what I do. That's almost 4 weeks of down time! I have 130 +/- hrs. on it and just don't know how much more time I want to spend on this lemon cab. I have to say that Holt has been helpful but that doesn't pay my bills or ease my frustration so I am asking myself what to do.
Yellowdog, you had said that the CASE dealer was near your BC dealer I believe. Perhaps stopping in and see if they have a 465 or even a 450 with cab and high flow in series 3 to demo on your mulcher. The dealer up here just got two new 465's in one with cab but neither with high flow, so they are starting to get them out. It would accomplish two things. One you could see how the CASE cab handles this environment and you could get back to work. If you like the machine, I would make CAT pay for the 465 rental while they reengineer your cab. See if that doesn't light a fire. Second, is I think you will soon find yourself at a cross road. You will either have to accept the 272C as it is, or fight them to take it back. If your successful in getting them to take it back you will need to find another machine. I suspect part of the reason your not seeing the performance you thought you would compared to your S300 is the lower torque rating of the CAT. Your old BC had more than the new CAT. The destroking pump does a good job of disguising the lower torque of the engine when using the bucket for excavating, but I bet when running a demanding, high flow attachment it is not able to conceal the low torque of the motor. Adding more PSI is not effective without torque.
Thumbs up for YELLODOG You have my fullest sympathy for the predicament you are in. My thinking on this problem is that this is much bigger than one justifiably disgruntled customer, this is something that every " C " purchaser should be backing you on, and pressuring their individual CAT dealer for some sort of solution, either a fix ( factory recall at no cost to customer ), or some form of financial reimbursement for breaching consumer regulations. It is obvious CAT has a real problem here, more with their claim that their machine IS when clearly it is NOT. I feel it imperative this matter be persued until you both come to an amicable solution. Equally imperative that this not be " kept secret ". These forums are very important for the prospective buyer, seasoned operator and newbie. How else are we to improve the 'next model' if the manufacturers are not made aware of flaws, and do not take notice of the individual. Please don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting a vigilante strike or suicide bombing on the CAT corporate, much can be achieved with reason, logic and civility. I look forward to reading your postings, and others opinions on this matter, hang in there, and don't underestimate the importance of what is at stake. Best of luck.
The cat has slightly more torque.I believe it's 217 in the cat vs 211 in the s300 but that still seems awfully inadequate for a 90 hp machine. I just didn't have enough info on the torque when I was looking at the machine. Digging power has been more than adequate, however. I just don't see the rotor speed or torque increase in the mulcher that I thought I would. When I demoed, I didn't have the experience running hand controls so I thought it might be me. I demoed another type of mower and it was about the same or slightly better. Since I don't grind full time, I can live with that performance if a machine is reliable. I will talk to CASE soon if CAT can't resolve my issue.
By no means do I think you should roll over for CAT- but you might want to consider all options and figure out what is best for you. I believe I would look at other machines with working effective pressurized cabs - see if one these could be adapted to your machine. There were a lot of Dump compacters, Loaders,and dozers with pressurized cabs. Once you find something go to the salvage yard and price whole setup Compare cost of that to Trading, or legal action.
Cat reiterated today that a snorkel on the AC system should solve my problems. AC gets clogged, loses pressurization, dust enters. I am skeptical because of the vibration issues on the sliding windows. I will be testing it within the next 10 days or so when I get my machine back. By then, it will have been in the shop for almost a month!
I'm just curious if the snorkel setup has a precleaner on it or if it's just a snorkel? Brian
not sure but I think AC one has a precleaner
I was thinking that the S300 had 230 something. According to CASE comparison page on their website they show 217.6 So the BC and CAT are about the same. It is amazing that for 90 hp they are both barely over 200 foot pounds. I believe it is due to the smaller displacement but I am not an engine designer. Although the Deere 332 has an even smaller displacement than BC and it makes 251 foot pounds, perhaps the fifth cylinder makes a difference.:beatsme Regardless if your full time or not, your paying for full time productivity and the machine should deliver that.
I am glad my dealer has been responsive even if they didn't have a fix. They got me a loaner, at their cost, and it is getting me by though it's a 256c and doesn't have the same power as the 272c. I am making do. As many small business owners know, planning your week is tough enough because of weather and running over on jobs so we count on our machines to be there and work when we need them. Many of us spend our weekends away from the family servicing our machines and getting them ready for Monday morning. Those on here that wanted me to "live with it or get a desk job" don't understand what it is like being in a cab where the air isn't moving or is circulating dirty air. It makes for a tough work environment to say the least. CAT boasts a clean cab so the operator is less fatigued and able to work longer hours in a comfortable setting. Those of us who drive nice trucks with working AC down in the south appreciate that A/C. I don't care what they used to put up with. My grandfather never put the hours in that I do nor did he spend the kind of money I have spent on machinery or trucks nor did they know any better back then! Once you get spoiled on AC and cell phones, it's hard to go back to the old way of doing things and unless I am chipping, I want to stay reasonably clean and comfortable if I am going to be couped up all day in 3x3 glass enclosure! I think CAT wants to make it right. I doubt they spent all that time and research on the C series just to start getting the complaints rolling in. I know I am not the only one but I may be one of the only ones working in such harsh conditions right now. We are in our 8th month of drought and Texas is getting dusty!!
Those quote pages don't always have the right numbers. The s300's actual net hp is 77.7 vs. the 81 they claim. It used to claim 81 gross and 81 net. Go figure! Torque is 211 ft. lbs according to the manual BUT the manual has, in the past, been wrong. For example, about 4 years ago Bobcat came out with a 41 gpm machine that overheated in 20 minutes. The manuals didn't get updated for a while though other info did. I know because I always ran 2 machines and traded up about every 1000 hours and the manuals were about the same or had slight changes or inaccuracies. Even getting with Bobcat technical support didn't always get me a clear answer..A good example is weight of a machine. I don't think the listed weight includes CAB and air machines but rather stock open cab designs. Not sure how much weight that adds but I would guess 200-300 lbs which adds up when you get upgrade tires and other goodies.
I know in a car occasionally when you are driving down a gravel road if you leave the air on it will keep the dust out. You may want to leave the air on all the time to try to keep the dust out.
I personally always have air on high to try and keep pressurization up but it doesn't help.
Yellowdog, I really feel for you. Especially with all of the downtime you've experienced. I'm not in the brush cutting business but I do have quite a bit of experience in the compact industry selling equipment and now running it part time. You are very early on in the ownership of your new CAT machine but I must ask how long you will be willing to wait for a machine that ultimately may not meet your needs. I run a ASV RC50 and most can tell I've been extremely happy with the performance over the couple of years that I've run it; however, I'm also just as quick to want to see someone in a machine that they are happy with. I have not run the ASV PT100 with a mulching head but I have been following some information that they will be releasing a version that it specifically aimed at the mulching business. I was told last night over beers with my salesman that ASV just completed their final testing down in FL last week and plan to launch it this month. It may be worth a look along with possibly the Case machine who also ae proclaiming to have a pressurized cab. My buddy works for a local Case dealer and didn't have much input on their new cab but he did say that if you want to mulch with it you had better get a machine ordered with the BIC highflow system because the stock system is marginal. The additional cost to the dealer is around $4500 so it would cost the customer some amount over that.
Here ae a few details on the PT100 forestry machine from what I've been told: Sealed pressurized cab- I was told last night that the cab temp was running at 65 degrees on low A/C with outside temps last week in FL around 95. Cab was supposedly immaculate in terms of dust. Standard automatic reversing fan that can be manually engaged or it will reverse automatically every 15 minutes standard fire extinguisher hinged belly pans for ease of cleanout hyd coupler protection to keep them from getting knocked off easy maintenance A/C condenser independent suspension metal face seals gps and mp3 hookup standard in the cab new designed guarding package There are a few things that I'm forgetting but it is supposed to be released before the end of the month and I'm sure they will have literature on their website. I wish you the best of luck getting your machine to operate as advertised. It sounds like your dealer has been very good to deal with.
I wish they would test these trees in S. Central Texas. I lived and worked in Fl. It's two different places for dust. S. Central Texas can be desert-like when the conditions are right. Low humidity, high heat, lack of rainfall=dust. Also, we have a somewhat unique situation with the overabundance of ashe juniper or cedar (though it's not a true cedar). The trees have shaggy bark, dry out quickly when cut, sticky sap, and millions of tiny needles much smaller than pine. The trees also have a lot of litter and are in poor, shallow soils often mixed with limestone. The mix of all of this is a very dusty work environment and it can be brutual when the temps are in the high 90's-102 and the humidity climbs. We don't often get the afternoon showers to settle the dust so grinding dry piles mixed with the stumps from these poor soils can be a real challenge for any machine. As I mentioned before, the Cat dealer down here knows these conditions and I was assured the machines would be sealed well. Other guys I talked to said their machines work well, too, but told me (after I had ordered mine) that they do not seal perfect. Well, perfect is relative. A truly sealed cab would probably take some silicone here and there and I understand that but a well engineered cab and door don't have any openings to the outside that aren't gasketed. When we did the smoke test, the cab looked like a bong that had been visited by a wood pecker. When I get the machine back, I am going to smoke bomb it again (AC off then turn it on) and video tape it for a You Tube vid. It's the only way I can explain what I am seeing. If the smoke can escape a cab with the AC off (and I don't mean barely escape but pour out from certain areas) then those areas need attention, right? I'd love to have an ASV but it won't work in the rock plus i am trying to stay under CDL to avoid a new trailer and licensing class. My 16ft trailer and flatbed truck work well for getting in and out quickly and moving attachments back and forth.
I don't think it is accurate to call the CASE high flow system marginal. I am not sure what the basis is for that. At 40 gpm at 3050 psi, 90 hp gross, and 288 torque it more than compares with anything else on the market. The ASV PT100 has 99 hp, 38 gpm and 3300 psi with 304 foot pounds is stronger but abeit not by much. Adding the BIC system makes the machine the most powerful (hyd. speaking) on the market with 5000 psi. Most of the OEMs used the 95XT with HF as their prototype model for their forestry attachments as well as cold planer attachment OEMs. If the stock system is marginal, than every other machines HF system is even more so. I think a better question is how effective the new pressurized cab is. This is the question I would like answered. A 440-3 speced for me is supposed to be hitting the dealers lot shortly. I plan on spending a significant amount of time in it. It is dusty and dry here, when running the preparator in this environment it is miserable even with a cab. That is as close as I can come to what Yellowdog deals with. I hope it is as good as it should be. Yellowdog, can you explain the smoke bomb test (including on how you conduct the test, AC off? Time you allow the smoke to permeate to the outside of the machine) you have been doing. I would like to try that before even picking the machine up.
I realize that a dual purpose/multi purpose machine will be average in many tasks. Seems to me, though, that sealing a cab is pretty straightforward. No holes, no dust other than what gets through the filters. If my Oreck vacuum and shop vacs can seal in dust, why can't my AC system keep it out? I don't want perfection but as everyone knows, I am complaining mostly because of how much I spent for this new c series cab and the fact that it leaks worse than my Bobcats did (I have owned and was sole operator of 8 cab and air Bobcats and a toolcat over the last 11 years. None of them leak dust like my CAT and I grinded brush with 4 of them and mowed dusty fields and small brush (with brushcats) with all the machines. I don't plan on waiting..can't stretch my budget out that long so I will have to keep working with what I have but I am not going to pay a premium for a machine that provides substandard performance but was marketed as being fully sealed. I just can't keep having the AC repaired or be uncomfortable in a hot cab because filters are plugging up all day and luckily my dealer totally understands this and is standing by me. Kudos to Holt CAT for working to make the modifications that might solve this issue. I know they are not hurting for revenue but they surely aren't making any money on my machine at this point but my sales guy still treats me as though I am a top priority. How many other places do that or is this sales team just special? This level of treatment is why I kept quiet for the first month even though I had problems from day 1. I wanted to give Holt a chance to make it right but it became apparent that CAT did not have a solution and without a go ahead, I think Holt can't just make modifications they won't be reimbursed for and I won't pay for. I just felt it should have worked out of the box with just a few minor issues to resolve (that's what warranties are for in my opinion and Thank God for Ford's warranty!
KSSS, I only witnessed one smoke bomb test. It's either a commercial smoke bomb or something they use to train fireman. It's not big but stinks and is really smoky. They set it on my seat and closed the door tight. We watched the smoke pour out of the windows, around door (which looked well sealed), under the cab too!, and around and under areas I didn't even know had openings. They then turned on the machine while bomb was still smoking and turned the AC on. It quickly cleared out the smoke but I didn't see it pour out of the cab any faster it just seemed to circulate faster. I will do another one soon. I thought about a dry ice/fog test too. The residual smoke smell makes me sick to my stomach..and I am used to burn piles from the old day. This stuff stinks! Another technician pressurized the cab by inserting his airgun into a small hole on the side of the cab puncturing a silicone cover and blew air into the cab. it was unscientific but you could feel all the places where the air was escaping and it wasn't a tight whistle as you would expect on a sealed cab. I had an idea but at this point don't feel I should have to mod the machine... Assuming they fix the AC system with the snorkel and it is pulling clean, outside air in instead of the dusty air that was going around clean air filter on side of cab. Assume that the split windows still have limited sealing ability which has been my major gripe. Assume that the door still seals marginally do to the large size of the door, flimsy nature of lexan, and single piston at far top of the door. My ideas were as followed but not sure if anyone listened other than my sales guy: Cut to fix a custom lexan "glass" that fits and bolts to the outside of cage. 1/4" would not be overly noticeable then seal around the lexan to the metal on the cab. This would effectively create a barrier between the outside and inside windows (which could be removed) thus eliminating a major source of pollution. The front door could have a latch at the top and bottom of door that "pulls it tight" and locks into place. A simple rubber latch, much like the ones used on motor cover on Bobcat's older Bruscats would fit the bill for this latch and still provide the quick release necessary for escape. In essence, if my ideas are on the mark and the snorkel kit provided the necessary clean air filtering the AC system needs, then the major sources of pollution have been elimated, and a strong flowing AC system will create the small postive pressure needed for a fully sealed and pressurized cab. Problem is, I don't want to do or pay for all of these modications at this point. If I had wanted to go through all of that, I would have done with the Bobcat which I had pretty well sealed up (though my 2nd s300k was sealed better than my later one). I just don't want to do a ton of modifications at this point. I am a sole owner operator, no machine operator helpers and I trade up or sell machines at just over 1000 hours.. I like newer technology and I have had 10 machines in 11 years all for me so I don't do a lot of mods that may affect resale or cause alterations that I don't know if there will be a market for at a later date.. just can't get enough back out of the machines to make the trade up worth it. Does that make sense? BTW, the CASE hydro system at 5000 psi sounds like a real monster for a small machine. One of things I used to make the decision to go with cat is the power to weight ratio and hydro power to weight ration. Not sure if it makes much sense to do that but in my mind it did. I just wish I knew more about the torque thing..
I don't think you can expect a dealer to re-engineer a machine. The best thing the dealer can do for you now is to make some introductions to someone at the factor who has authority to settle the matter. You either get some money back or get what you paid for. Is the pressurized cab an option or is standard? jmf
as far as I know, closed cabs are optional. Machine is useless to me unless it works as advertised otherwise I would still be in my Bobcat s300k and half nearly half the payment and about 85% the same production. Holt made severe modifications under their "brush modifications" which included cutting out the rear door, adding metal covers, foam seals, vinyl and metal debris guards, and other porting out the auxilliary hydraulic block for more gpm with less restriction. This machine, by far, isn't stock, but most mods are for the good of the machine and are not all that noticeable.
YD Their is a co. in my area that started with a C series Cat,I believe he is having the same problem as you. http://www.southernmulchers.com/
KSSS I'm not saying that the BIC system is marginal. It's actually an excellent system (95XT). I was just repeating what my buddy has told me (Case compact equipment salesman) regarding the standard highflow. The PT100 hyd. flow is actually 40gpm@3650psi using a load sensing pump. I don't know why ASV understates the flow and pessure on their spec sheet but I personally witnessed a flow check on a new machine at the dealership and the tech said that all of them come standard with 40gpm@3650. I'm curious as well to see/hear how the new Case Series 3 cabs perform. Mustang/Gehl ae also advertising a pessurized cab too. Have you or anyone heard how it performs? I remember when I was selling skids and surveying customers for Bobcat on whether or not they would be willing to pay for A/C and the vast majority said that they didn't care if their operators were comfortable they only caed that they worked hard. it's amazing how things have evolved.
Aren't you running a 297C? Why would the ASV be hardly any different in weight? It is definitely narrower. Who knows, it may be worth a look in the future. I am impressed with the effort your dealer has put into this for you. A good dealer can make a sour deal a little easier to swallow. I wish you the best of luck.
I have the 272c 8500lbs plus or minus. I think a lot of the mulching guys are mostly owner-operators at least in the skid steer class. At least this is what I encounter down here. We all want to be comfy but maybe I more than others??
No sweat. I thought you were running a 297C. Nothing wrong with wanting to be comfortable. People tend to look past the health aspect of equipment operating..back, neck, hearing, and in your case dust in the lungs too. Down the road as people get older and have thousands of hours in machines you see health problems develop as a result of all of the bounching, jarring, neck turning, and noise.
YellowDog, Does your machine only let dust in the cab when mulching? Or does it also do it when working with just dirt? You would have thought that Cat would have made sure that the cabs wouldn't let dust in before they released the new models for production. I mean, how hard could it have been to run one with a mulcher for several days to check it out?
mostly on mulching but you get gritty when working in the dirt too. I'll know more if we decide to test the fix on Friday. I doubt it was tested much with a mulcher. I have heard others complain too, but they just lived with it.
Believe it or not the C-Series were tested extensivly in and around Texas long before the machine was public. These machines were mulching the whole time. As you know the CAB as a whole is not the major problem, the attachments windows, door etc, are were the sources for dirt entry. Also the way the pressurised A/C systems are designed they must use outside air to pressure the inside of the cab. So if the outside element is clogged and the differential from inside to outside is even or less, then you guessed it no CAB pressurization. Seal up the windows, all the way. Make sure the door latches, all the way. Keep the filter clean.
I have been disappointed as everyone knows. I figured for about $60k plus tax just for the machine, advertised as fully sealed and pressurized, the windows and doors would have been taken into account. From what I have heard, some of the prototypes had thicker lexan than the production machines? Maybe that explains the poor seal that the door makes. The windows, for machines in dusty environments should have been 1 piece that is either rigid or "pops" open like on an older ext. cab truck. The latch or tab would help pull the window tight and seal out the dust. My trucks don't leak dust near as bad on these dry caliche roads or for that matter, when I am chipping, which leads me to think that there was an oversight or they figured they would catch up with it later when a fix was developed. I have griped because "nobody knew nothin', " so to speak. I commend Holt for trying to work with me but who up the chain didn't pass down the info? I thought all of the CAT dealers were tied in to share ideas? Yancey Cat in Ga., has supposedly known about the this issue for some time and developed a fix. I wonder why this wasn't caught during testing in Texas? Green brush is not dusty as dry cedar. I know the whole country isn't made up of cedar but that's what's important down here and those dry trees pose more of a problem with dust control (and the poor, thin soils that are easily kicked up by the mulchers). I have my test in the morning with CAT reps, Holt reps, and the 272c with the air intake modifications. I will post an honest assessment of the snorkel. I am losing money because I can't plan..so I'm upset about that and I am postponing the start of a large job to do this test. Holt told me they worked hard on the upgrades so I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt because I think they want to work with me and others who may have a similar issue.
Well we had the test. Cat factory rep, Salesman from Waco, Holt Service manager, Holt Sales manager, my sales guy, a field service tech, and product support guy. Everyone seemed to admit that my conditions here are the worst they have seen. I admitted that it isn't always this dry and dusty but it can be. I try to use my head and keep the wind behind me and try and let the dust settle when there is a white-out but it's tough to do when the winds are variable. First of all, the snorkel is a good idea. It is fabricated to fit over the outside air filter housing. It moves up the side of the cab to an elbow that ends with a small air pre-cleaner that sits behind the cab. The pre-cleaner is plastic the snorkel is metal. I don't know how it will hold up when tree shearing and a few of the guys questioned the same thing. Cat is supposedly working on a factory-made fix. The test was only for about an hour. Hardly long enough to make a good assessment so we agreed to do more testing as my jobs and time allows. After the roughly 1 hour of testing, we opened up the snorkel and found the filter wasn't too bad but I didn't expect it to be clogged after an hour. The inside of the air intake cowling, however, showed signs of dust bypass. I did notice some dust in the cab but the other two operators said they didn't. I guess I am more sensitive to it because I'm so sick of it but that's another story. My contention all along is that there is a problem under the cab with dust entering AC ductwork and there is a problem where the filters meet up with the air intake on the side of the machine. With only one nut to secure the snorkel or filter cover before snorkel was installed, I don't think there is enough pressure on the filter to make it seal good. Since the A/C system is lackluster as far as moving air, there isn't a good seal made. I would expect the A/C system, as complicated as it looks on the C series, to pull hard against the filter and "suck" it to the housing making a good seal. This doens't happen, however, and machine vibration I think allows dust to bypass the filter and enter the system. I noticed today, upon inspection after grinding, that the snorkel actually has play in it and I think the snorkel housing actually compounds the issue of the filter not making a good seal. Right now, it's hot and the A/C system at 93 deg. outside temp is only putting out 73 degrees at the vents with two vents open. If I close all but one vent, I get 69 deg. Hardly crisp and not enough to cool the cab. The cab is staying a balmy 85 deg. at head level. That is hardly acceptable and it feels stuffy inside. In comparison, my Bobcat is putting out cold air, same temps today, and it feels great in the cab. So, I still think my CAT AC is unacceptable. This has been the issue all along and the only thing I have complained about.
If all the AC can muster is a 10 degree drop from outside air temp to inside of the cab, CAT has some more work to do on the machine. Even at the vents it is only 20 degrees give or take difference. It sounds like perhaps a condensor issue (correct Freon charge) or AC unit plugs with dust preventing the AC unit to cool itself. I am sure such easy things as this have been looked into. The question I would like to know is this 272C not functioning correctly or is it operating the way it was designed to and it is obviously not designed well enough to keep the cab even somewhat cool (not to mention the dust issues) under the conditions your operating in. Does the loaner 256C do a better job cooling the cab than the 272? It would seem to me that would answer the question I have, since both units have been operating in what I would assume to be the same environment.
The AC used to work good. Leads me to the path of the condenser being clogged again or damaged. Freon was checked before it went back to shop for 22 days. It read good. We just got in from checking it again with a 3rd pair of eyes. 93 deg. outside temp. 77 degrees come out of vents. Got it down to 75.4 then back up. Head area temp was high 80's to 90. We ran the machine at full throttle to have max air moving across evaporator. On 272c, the aftercooler fan also blows air across the evaporator. To me, this is one of the design issues. With no stock guarding around openings of the cab, in mowing enviroments or even just working around fluffy materials like Cotton and other seeds, the aftercooler fan shroud clogs and reduces airflow. I blew everything out, however, before our tests... Not sure what is going on but it is going to be a long week when temps hit 100. Everyone at Cat says it's just my machine.. The 256c does a better job cooling but it came with condenser clogged with leaves and sand. I had to gently vacuum it out and clean it up but it had a very low output at the vents. The loaner had been abused. Cat admitted that. I didn't mow much with the 256c. I had to wait for a lexan door and decided to book some dirt work. To be honest, I didn't do much over the last 2 weeks other than some grinding of green brush and dirt work. I certainly didn't work the loaner too hard. Just feels like the twilight zone around here!
It sounds like the Twilight Zone. If CAT says it is just your machine than they should prove that by bringing in another 272 to run. This would confirm that it is or isn't just your machine and it would be a more adequate loaner than the 256C which obviously was not set up to replace your 272 while it was down. Although it was good they gave you a 256 to use (and they should since their new machine has been malfunctioning since you took delivery), I think they should provide you a machine that is equipped as needed to replace your down machine. It does little good to give you a loaner if it is not able to put you back to work while they scratch their watch trying to fix yours. CASE here got in a cab equipped 465, but unfortunately it came in ISO pattern. I will have to wait for a CASE pattern machine to demo one. Supposedly a 440 cab unit is on the truck coming this way. The literature says that there is only a 5 degree difference in the cab from feet to head. I am anxious to put it to the test. It is finally looking like Summer here. The heaters have been used up until 3 days ago. I also am filing the smoke bomb test away, should I order one. That will be done prior to delivery to me and all leaks if any, fixed prior to me taking delivery.
Just drop it and move on dust in my cab, what a joke :usa sorry Yellowdog, go move forward with the lemon law.. Tired of hearing your gripe. Move on or ointhead
Who was talking to you?
I wasn't unhappy with the 256c but was never offered another 272c to compare to. The 256c just didn't have the same roc and hp that I am used to making it a bit tippy. They did swap my door out with the glass door so I had lexan to grind with then we realized they wouldn't get a good test with a glass cab since the glass is more rigid than lexan and the glass doors seem to seal better. I was told that the prototype testing units had what the rep thought was thicker lexan. Not sure if that would make difference but the lexan on there now seems to seal pretty good. For the CASE A/C 5 degree difference isn't much especially if the air is moving. That cab sounds like it would be comfortable especially down here in S. Texas where it can hit the century mark for a week straight with no clouds in the sky. Some people still think dust in a cab is okay for grinding. Let them try it for 8 hours and do quality work and we'll see if they can. Not only will an AC system that is designed to be free of dust fail, it will lead to downtime, repairs, and an uncomfortable operating experience.
I thought there were gaps in the cab seal where you could see the dust coming in. Now it sounds like a filtration issue. jmf
They replaced the door again and their is a small opening and the door still needs to be adjusted but it is minor. everyone seemed to think that dust was entering from somewhere under the cab which is one of the areas I have been documenting with pictures. The door seal is "off center" for some reason. I am thinking now that there is an adjustment that can be made to hinges. I remember one of the field techs telling me they had drilled out the holes to make adjusting easier than the factory had sent it out. It's possible that someone forgot to clean out the condenser again. They had done it right before it went in for the 22 days but I'm not sure if it was cleaned out again. It had the same symptoms this time as it did when the condenser clogged. No air flow, no pressurization, dust finds it way into every thing especially the duct work and it's possible the area under the cab is the culprit. Short of a fibre optic style monocular, I'm not sure how they can see under the cab when it is in its correct position and tightened. You can remove two side panels that the cab rests on but I don't think it would be an accurate test. Someone suggested "lipstick" on one of the duct seals to see how and where it meets the bottom seal. That would at least tell us if there is a gap. It's just foam so it's possible it doesn't make contact all the way around and with the aftercooler pulling in debris from the front of the machine while mowing, it's possible it is being pulled into the system right there.
I have word by a solid source that CAT equipment actually prefers lipstick, some say they run better with "Hot Pink" others say more of a "Crimson Red". Sorry I just cant help myself.:beatsme
You are a baaaaad man! :falldownlaugh
You guy's are turning me off tracked loaders . Ive been wanting to buy a Posi or a Cat but wont put up with that crap . My New Holland tractor is in the dust all day flail mowing Lantana and the like as the chaff is very fine from it . Ive even put out grass fires by stradling the flames and putting them out with the flail mower . When i'm done you can't tell what colour the tractor is supposed to be with all the fine dust , but i have never had a speck inside the cab . I come home looking the same as i'd left . And if i go to the pub my mates ask if i had'nt worked today because i'm still clean . I'd come off the chain if i'd spent big dollars on an enclosed machine and come home filthy . They will want to fix that if they want my money .
The tractor is a proven format, but it is limited. I have a project that is full of slopes, mud and large trees to remove. These tasks require something more grounded. When it comes time for regular mowing, I always go with the tractor, but when I'm mowing areas that have never been mowed, the CTL is better suited. CTL's are still in their infancy, but the concept has proven its worthiness. I'm not sure if it will be Cat or ASV, but one of these companies will be challenging the tractor's realm in the near future. I have an ASV SR80 and the only time I get dirty is when I clean the machine at the end of the day. jmf
I spoke to an operator a few days ago who has about 400 hours on a 277C and he had nothing but praise for the cab and he works in dusty conditions most of the time.
Yeah, it must have been just my machine. I really liked the overall CAT and the cab layout and I miss it. Nobody could get it right, though.
What's the status now?
I tried to convince him to try a CASE, but he would have none of it. Unless Yellowdog has changed his mind it is back to a S300.
I thought about the CASE but I had so many issues with the CAT A/C that I didn't want to take a chance with a new dealer on a machine that hadn't been out very long. I think the CASE machines are excellent on paper and I see them hold up well on job sites but I know nuttin' about the dealer but the machines are still on my list. If CAT can prove to me that the 272c's are truly sealed since I paid extra for that feature, I would still be interested in that machine. I miss it. My bobcat dealer told me he was glad I came back. I am stripping down an s330 and will paint it CAT Yellow!
so you got rid of the cat? :beatsme
I'll join you! I have a can of [free] Cat spray paint! (See? Not all Cat dealers are horrible.) I'm sure one can will be enough to paint an entire machine, no?
I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms and go out of thier way to help at warranty time when they see thier machine painted CAT Yellow .
Hey, I'm Yellow Dog. Everything I have is yellow!
I was curious how you came up with that handle , do you have a Labrador or was it an unkind name for your CAT ?
My yellow dogs, of course! We used to raise Labs and had an extra special Yellow Lab that I named my first lawn company after when I was in my early 20's. The name just stuck and people seem to like it.