Debating on what avenue to go down with the rebuild of my old 3406A DITA. Genuine Cat parts, Cat Classic parts or an aftermarket brand. Engine runs decent but it needs to be freshened up. Lots of blowby and it doesn't start for crap at anything below 5C. Thinking just a basic out of frame deal. 6 liners/pistons, head, oil pump, water pump, bearings and reseal front cover and retarder. Don't plan on doing much more than bobtail around to shows or pull a 35 foot RV. Might put 10-20k kilometers a year on it.
I've always been warned by a retired Cat engine guy to steer clear of aftermarket stuff. I don't see any reason why Cat Classic wouldn't be acceptable. During the time he made those statements my trucks were running all 48 and Canada so my expectations for lifecycle, warranty etc were different. I'm thinking that one of the larger aftermarket suppliers might be ok given your intended use. If I was to overhaul the C15 in my W900 I'd look into aftermarket parts with the exception of the head. That being said I've never used aftermarket parts in a Cat. Somebody on here hopefully has and can shed some light on the situation as I have two motors I'd like to build and sure as heck don't want to fork over the $$ Cat parts cost. Neither engine will see much use, most likely less than your aniticiapted mileage. More fire up, move from one corner of my 10 acre yard to the other and sit there running the crane and compressor only to venture back 600' to where it started out 8 hours earlier lol. **** life for a large diesel no doubt!! My current personal service truck has seen 13,000 miles in 2-1/2 years lol. Half my customers are close enough it barely warms up enough to throw heat in the winter or cools the cab in summer. Random off topic I know lol.
My 2 cents. Please do not use classic. Rule of thumb is classic is good for 500 hrs or less per year and anything non-internal. Classic does not pay contingent damage where genuine does. IE - throw a rod out your block after rebuild and classic buys you a new rod and genuine buys you a new rod and block if its a faulty rod from Cat. As for A/M. Lots of decent suppliers out there for a 3406. 9 out of 10 times you'll be fine. If your the 1 and tearing down your engine shortly after rebuild you'll be wishing you went OEM. Talk to your Cat dealer and if your buying the whole package you should get some discounts. 1 year parts warranty with Cat (classic or genuine). If they are doing the labour even more discounts. Check for a gold or platinum kit. Quote classic and then genuine and if the partsman cares about customers he will give you a better deal on the genuine to keep you from buying classic internal engine parts........
If your only going to shows with it I would reuse the head replace the pistons and liners. Check the counter bores for pitting and sled gauge them for height. That oil pump is probably ok, oil pumps for retarders are spendy. Replace the cam follower clips and check follower diameter. Check the bushings in the gear train of front structure, reseal engine. Aftermarket parts are just that. There cheaper for for a reason, when it comes to internal parts use the OEM. Plus you will be sorry if you don't use Cat gaskets and O-rings. Truck Shop
Thanks for the replies everyone I think the head will need to be done. Previous owner ran it for who knows how long with all the exhaust studs broken on the first 2 cylinders. Manifold has been vibrating in and out of the slip joint connection and has probably erroded the head to some degree. Won't know for sure until I open things up. I'm planning for the worst anyways. Also this engine has a spacer plate between the head and the block. Would it still have counterbores? Anything particular to be worried about with that setup?
If it didn't have some broken studs that would be odd, that was common on the A's and B's. Those are not that hard to remove, just go slow at it. If there is a collar of crusty oil/soot residue around the valve stem at the top of the valve guide then the guides are needing replaced. Yes there is a counter bore in the block below the intermediate plate, check the plate for erosion, replace if necessary. Remember those come in different thickness.
Thanks. I may take a stab at taking the turbo and manifold off next weekend. Might pop the valve covers and take a look in there too. Any idea what a guy would spend on Cat parts to do the work I mentioned earlier? I'm guessing around $7k if it needs a head but I could be way off too for all I know lol.
You can sink 8 to 10K real fast. Truck Shop
I agree with truck shop,(truck stop think there is a typo in your post the 3406B has no counter bore) stay away from classic parts, even our own dealer has advised us not to use them, would also change the oil jets for the piston. have had a few crack on me and grab pistons. very very important to throw away the follower spring clips when they break the followers turn sideways and screw the cam and block to pieces Mark
You're wanting to rebuild a engine you will depend on, scrimping on possibly substandard parts is not the best idea.
Thanks for correcting me, that's not a typo- I just can't remember **** anymore. Truck Shop
Ok... The wild dog pack is going to tear me to pieces, but I have done several (a lot) of farm truck engines with McBee and F-P engine kits with zero issues. These are trucks that run 1.5-3 months of the year with heavy loads. the kits have saved many a truck that would be economically worthless to put a Cat gold kit into. I do use genuine cat O-rings on the liners though. I have also used these aftermarket kit on 2-stroke Detroits with no problems too. On the other hand, the last Cat I did for daily freeway duty was Cat all the way.
See I heard that their classic parts were for guys who don't use the equipment much and figured since this is essentially going to be powering a show/play truck that they might be a viable option. I'm starting to think maybe that's not such a great idea after reading some of these posts. I don't want to spend a fortune on something I don't plan on putting to work but I know I'd be pretty angry if I broke down because I cheaped out on something. The engine honestly runs fairly decent for having sat 10 years. I didn't change oil, filters, fuel or anything. Just hooked up batteries and cranked on it. I had no oil in the rad and no coolant in the oil so I'm hoping the block, crank and head are still good. If it didn't have a crazy amount of blowby and poor starting I'd probably have just fixed the leaks and painted it. Definitely appreciate all the advice everyone. I don't deal much with diesel engines bigger than about 4 litres anymore.
Speaking of blowby, double check that the compressor isn't creating that issue....it's unusual but happens. Sounds tired though if she's a hard starter. I think I'm going aftermarket on my next build. Especially if I transplant the mechanical motor into the KW.
Truck Shop
That might be a record for the most emojis in a post! Haha.
So I guess the question is are the classic parts better or worse than aftermarket parts? Speaking in general of course. I'm pretty much certain the internals are going to be genuine Cat parts after reading these posts. Cheaper to do it right the first time .
I would rather use other aftermarket parts than Cat Classic parts. Some aftermarket parts are really good and have been around for decades. They actually have quality control departments and make a good product.
second d9g I have tried to use classic parts in the past on non critical areas but half the time bolt holes don't line up or so called machined surfaces are so badly finished that they have to be returned Mark
I'm go to go against the grain here and say that SOME aftermarket parts are OK, you just have to be careful in your choices. From personal experience I've had good luck with IPD and Clevite pistons and bearings, and for gasket kits, Bulldog are OK. Stay away from High Gaskets.
Over the years we did use some IPD and a lot of Clevite also think we did get some Bulldog gaskets. Don't recall any major problems with those.
The last three Clevite kits I ordered some years back for DT466 two of the kits ended up with split liners after 4 weeks running. That ended aftermarket for me. I hate doing a job twice, one time only. Hunt for Red October--One ping, one ping only. Truck Shop
I've had good luck with FP kits, never had a problem with IPD kits but are lesser quality IMO. At one point I worked at an Navistar parts dealer for 8 years, rebuilt way too many 466/530E, occasionally 466 mechanical, one had the head rebuilt at a machine shop with OEM valves (made in Mexico) 2 weeks later it dropped one, broke at the keeper groove, Navistar suggested we use aftermarket, I believe they were Melling.. 6 of 1 half a dozen of the other! I strongly suggest you turn this kitty into a complete monster, just because you can! Maybe find a B model, build it over the winter, 7-800 Horse 2500-3000 Torque??
What he said!!
Maybe the next one. Its 375hp/1300ish ft-lbs stock. I've already rebuilt the transmission and its only good for about 1,550 ft-lbs. Suppose I could juice it up 25-50hp. With a single 3.73 rear I could probably keep up with a new pickup lol.
I guess my next question is where would a guy buy aftermarket kits from?
It'll be fine with 2,000 . Torque capacity of a transmission is related to gross combined weight. No more than you'd have behind it you'd be fine. Plus with a single drive it'll slip the drives before it hurts the trans. Ask me how I know haha
I've had good luck with Union Tractor, I'm sure you've heard about them, they've even lent me specialty tools from there head shop! They should be able to get parts for a truck engine. I've also used http://www.westerndieselwhsl.com I've got a couple sources in Kamloops that could hook you up also.
Union Tractor's out towards Pritchard, just off the main highway I believe.
Yeah but I'm putting lowbed ramps on the back. That extra weight is gonna mean more traction lol.
Union Tractor has a few branches, Nisku (Head office), Red Deer, Grande Prairie, Prince George, and Kamloops (it used to be out by Chase, they moved up by the bus depot now, which is convenient!
Guess you'll need the 18 speed I have....
To get back to Cat Classic, they are parts that Cat has licensed out to other manufacturers to make, but not necessary to Cat standards. The steel composition and the hard surfacing are usually not the same as genuine Cat. For example if I was building a trailer queen Cat for shows or using it myself at home and not pushing it to the limit, I would have no problem using Cat Classic gears in the transmission. If it were to be a working everyday pushed to the max machine I would stay away from them.
The difference between a RTLO16913 and a RTLO18913 is the tempering or hard surfacing of the gears. But here is the catch, If ordering gears-Eaton only services 169 gears for a 189. You cannot buy 189 gears from Eaton, so when rebuilding a 189 gear box with Eaton parts the gear train will be half and half. But I only use Eaton transmission parts. And remember years ago A Cat 1693 425 HP only had a 9513 then a 12513, the 3408, KTA and 12V71 only had a RTO12513 from the factory. Although the guy I work with use to roast a 12513 behind the 3408 in a C.O.E. Pete he owned every 200,000. If your looking for a super high torque box then the 2,300 ftb torque series Eaton is it, and only $8,500 used . Truck Shop
Union Tractor uses a lot of IPD parts and is a distributor for them. They have new management and a lot of long term employee's are gone or were forced out. They are advertising for mechanics and offering signing bonus's. One of the parts guys I know that has been there a long time came out to the parking lot with me last year and said the new management is watching every thing they do like hawks. They have to be very careful of what they say. There has to be something going on that they're having trouble hiring HD mechanics.
It was under the old management when I got the tools lent to me, I know a couple guys that worked for the Kamloops union, they started their own business in Chase, HD Parts Direct, good guys. I still use Union Tractor occasionally and haven't had any issues with them since the management switch, I doubt they'd lend me fancy tools anymore though!
Money got real tight in garage work, insurance, liability claims, benefits and few to no available new hands putting in applications. Garage I used to work at has all but closed, dropped back to two shifts from three, could not get reliable help to manage the crews then could not replace those that left with any talent. All sorts of openings and few replacements while I note a lot of closures and end of business sales.
Here's another question. How do you determine the arrangement number? All I have is a S/N stamped into the block. I put that in SIS (Systems and Components, TMI and that other one on the main page). All that comes up is no information available. Its a 1979 model 3406 rated at 375hp according to the valve cover. Problem is under TMI in SIS there is no 375hp test spec and nothing in TMI seems to match the injection timing indicated on the valve cover tag either. Did Paccar have their own settings for the Cat engines that went into their trucks?
Are you actually looking in TMI, because TMI is a separate website and not part of SIS. Post your serial number (PM it if you like) and I'll see what I can dig up.
Yep I did click the TMI link to go to the other site. Lists a lot of info but nothing that really matches what I have for info on the valve cover (assuming that info is correct of course). Sent you a PM, thanks.
OIH, so Cat does have the classic parts built? I wasn't sure if they did it like that...or just bought aftermarket and put them inside a pretty Cat Classic box and put a decent markup on them.
Yes, you're right. It's a bit early to be in the TMI database so we need to investigate further. Does it have an aftercooler? Can you see a performance spec anywhere? It will look something like 0TXXXX or 2Txxxx. If it's not on the valve cover, it should be stamped on the top face of the FIP near the injection lines connections. It may be quite faint and you will probably have to scrape the paint off to see it.
My understanding is that they are built under Cat licensing agreements by subcontractors. I am not sure if they build any themselves using less costly materials and procedures.
Yep there's an air to coolant aftercooler on it. Don't see a test spec # on the valve cover. When I get home I will check around the pump for a number.
You probably won't find anything listing a AR#. Rebuilt a A model 400 Dita eleven years ago on nothing more than a engine serial and part #'s. Kenworth will only show serial# and hp rating if any at all. And most of those in those years didn't have a test spec on the valve cover other than basic info. Truck Shop
I have used a lot of Clevite kits with and a couple of PAI 3406E kits with no problems. I did have a problem with two liners that I did not use. Upon inspection I saw they had previosly failed the concrete bounce test. Mail order company made me pay for the replacements and ship the old ones back for inspection. They did issue a credit later but did not refund all expenses. Now I buy local as much as possible. Hopefully they have always been on a pallet and the people I deal with every day do not jerk me around. On older equipment I like to tear them down and get as many part numbers as possible first. Also watch out for that odd duck with only one journal turned.
Righto, thanks man.
The only parts I have used from "Cat Classic" were parts for obsolete crawlers like the D9D, most all of those parts were New old stock that was just floating in the system. Some were Italian parts, but the salesman called and cleared that stuff first and did not label it as any sort of Cat part.
I checked around the pump, didn't really see anything. I have to steam the engine again. Still a lot of cooked on oil I have to get off. I did get some numbers off the tag on the pump. Do any of these numbers help? Pump Grp 6N4913 Test No. 24621 There is also a "P" stamped on the same line as the Test No. but at the far right edge of the tag, Test No. is on the far left. I have a photo of the tag but for some reason I keep getting an error when I try to attach it.
As far as I can see, 6N4913 was only used on four Paccar arrangements; 9N3940 9N5513 9N3941 9N5514 The last two have a "brake saver" retarder, the first two don't. Does yours? And the only difference between the two retarder models and the two non-retarder models is some sound insulation around the oil pan.
Yep its got a brakesaver. So pretty much either of the last 2 could be it? Thanks for the help. Appreciate it very much.
Yes that's it, with the caveat that information on older models has been transferred from microfiche onto the computerised system, and mistakes can happen.