Greetings, New to the forum and need to pick some brains. I'm looking for a D3 to add to my collection of brush clearing equipment. I've found one several hundred mile away for what looks like a decent price BUT is has a bad engine, claims it has ~5600 hours. The seller says that it dropped a valve and damaged a piston. I'm fairly handy around smaller machinery, but I'm no heavy equipment mechanic and would need to get professional involved. So tell me... what is a worst case scenario as far as getting this machine back on its feet? Are rebuilt 3204 cat engines readily available? What kind of money are we talking about? Thanks for any and all help! Brian
I would fix what you have and not look into a engine. There will be good access with the belly pan drppeded and hood off, so worst case rebuild yours in the machine. Send the head out for a valve job and replace and or re sleeve the piston.
There are no sleeves in a 3204 engine. If this unit dropped a valve you will most likely need a new head and definitely a piston and some machining of the engine block. The usual issues with these engines involves lots of blowby and there are plenty of machines out there for decent money. The real issues with these machines is the condition of the undercarriage. It might be worth finding a used engine if the tracks, sprockets and rollers are good but if they aren't you have two expensive strikes against you before you even start. Good Luck!
Thanks Guys, Yes there seem to be plenty to consider. Having never owned one, I'm trying to find the right balance between price and condition knowing that I will not be making a living with it, just need one that is dependable on the farm. I've been reading forums and adds for some time now, trying to learn what to look for when inspecting these machines. Most adds talk about the undercarriage ("undercarriage is **%") or number of hours since last rebuild, but it's hard to determine if there are problems internally. I've read some posts that scare the devil out of me as well...the ones that talk about the machine running and turning good, hydraulics working as they should, no apparent leaks, etc. then they get it home and put it to work and discover leaks or noises or you name it. I'd like to get some idea of the most important things to look for to improve the chances that I get the right machine within my budget. I would not mind getting one that is less expensive and needs work, but I'd like to know more about the cost of doing major repairs. Any and all suggest are welcome.
I'm still listening folks. If anybody out there is looking to sell a D3 or D4 size dozer, contact me with details. Cheers
If it has 5,600 hours on it and has dropped a valve and you are going to fix the engine you might as well do it right. That means pull it out, have the block bored and sleeved. New pistons, rings, rod bearings and mains. Check the crank for cracks as it has been known to happen on these engines. Depending on how it checks out may need to be line bored too. Either go through the head totally or get a rebuilt. Rebuilt 3204's do not seem to be readily available. This whole deal could get expensive.
I can't argue with what anyone else has said. The only way I would put a new engine in a D3 is if I had owned it for a number of years and it didn't need an undercarriage, was a good running machine, transmission shifted good, etc. Just an under carriage will be 11k (and up) dollars, depending on what exactly it needs, if you can do the labor yourself, etc. Around here you can find a series 2 for around 11-13k. The reason I say owned it for a couple years is, because you know what you have. If funds weren't too tight I look upto a D5. Similar weight and more HP. My .02, CJ
Thanks Greg and pp, I appreciate your input... Sound like even at ~$6000 this may be more than I am ready to jump into. Need to find a good independent mechanic to help me out. pp, is the D5 about the same as far as cost of repairs? Does it share many of the same components as the D3 & D4? I'm all for more HP but I'd like to be able to haul it with my Dodge 2500.
Yeah, it's pretty much the same money as far as repairs. I'd say maybe 10% higher cause some things are a little bigger. They do share a lot of components. You will be better of with a D4 or D5 in my opinion cause there's more of them out there. They're not that much heavier than a D3. I hauled them around here on a Dodge 2500 and tandem dual trailer. You're overloaded for sure but I've hauled heavier loads of hay, and you said you were just gonna use it around your place huh? I wouldn't haul one around the DFW metroplex like that though. If you buy one that's not running, you don't get to test run it to see if has any funny sounds, vibrations, clunks, clangs, smoke, leaks, slipping, sloppiness, etc., etc. Be prepared for future surprises when you evaluate them. What I mean is that if I had a choice between a good running D5 that I could test run before purchase and another D5 with a bad motor, I would definitely discount the price a lot more than the cost of just a new engine. I'd probably discount another 25% from the price just for any surprises that come up, and I have a lot of experience around these dozers. Since you've not been around them very much, I'd suggest you take off more like 50% in my example. If you're in the DFW area like I suspect, I'm 120 miles south of you if I can help you out. Unfortunately, I'm not that busy at the moment.
Makes sense d9. I'll mostly be using it around my place, but I have been known take a clearing job where I had to trailer my shear and want to have that option in the future...but it won't be in the DFW Metro! Like you, I'm not afraid to make my Cummins earn its keep. I'm actually ~80 miles SW of Fort Worth trying to beat back this juniper infestation. I see a lot of machinery online in and around the Metroplex. At this point, my learning curve is pretty steep. As you may be able tell from this thread, I'm the kind of guy that likes to gather as much info as possible before beating the bushes....like to at least know what questions to ask. I've rented dozers on several occasions, think they were in the D4 category. Like most of the folks I've run across on HEF, I'd prefer to have one setting there waiting for me to fire it up and go to work, even though it is probably not the most economical way to go. A track loader in not out of the question...again I'm just scouting options. You must be over toward Waco? Thanks for your input...
For myself I wouldn't be afraid of it not running, price would have to be great though. Since I'm cheap I would look for a running take out from a dismantler, but all in I would want to be a least a few grand less than the same running machine. Have you tried any auctions for a machine? Just my two cents but if it were me, I would opt for the D4 just for the parts availability down the road. I would say 4's are more common than 3's and 5's. I have always thought a d4 could do the same work, was a little smaller than a d5, and if you needed more why wouldn't you get a d6. Tom And no I am not looking to upset everybody with a D5, I feel the same way about the D7.
Three years ago I rebiult a 3204 in a D3 for a good freind of mine, he put all new undercaridge in it at the local track shop, put about 50 hrs on it and burned up the forward clutch pack. The reason he put so few hrs on it he's retired and only needed at his deer huntin camp. Now we are looking at this old girl and talking about running it to the local auction knowing he wont get anything for it or throwing a bunch of money at and then the auction and take his chances! Would you be intrested in this dozer? I've ben a mechanic since 1980 and have rebiult many engines of all brand and will vouch for this engine. [of course that don't mean a lot to you] If this peaks your intrest PM me or respond here. wes
There's a deal I'd say. With his good running dozer with a new U/C and the one you've found, put the two of them together and make one really good one and have a bunch of parts left over for the future. Freight is gonna be the biggest deal, but it can be done. I'd check it out. It ain't hard to change transmissions.
You can get a good idea of what to look for in this video put up by the local Cat dealer in my area. http://www.viddler.com/v/3a968713 It isn't anywhere near where you are but it will show you what to look for when you do find one. Good Luck!
grand- I pm'ed you..let me know... All- looks like the seller took the brokedown D3C off the market...the good news it that it got me to asking questions and picking up some really good information on the forum. John C.- nice, clean video...would this be an example of one that is right? or was he just showing what points to look at? As I continue to read postings, one of the most important lessons I'm learning is to have a machine that has parts readily available. It appears that Cat has the best network and Komatsu is not far behind. What about JD and Case? Can you get dozer parts through their ag tractor dealerships? These dealerships are more prevalent in this part of the state because of the ag sales and service....chime in guys, I'm not married to any particular brand yet, just looking for the one that makes sense for me. Thanks to all responders.. Brian
As I recall the video is showing where the loose items were and that the machine would move. I posted it just to give you an idea of things to look at in your search. You are correct in not being wedded to any one manufacturer. Deere, Komatsu and Dresser made plenty of small dozers that will do what you want. Just remember any machines from that era in your price range are going to need some work.
If you are talking about Deere ag dealers being able to get parts for Deere Industrial or Construction equipment, that is a real mixed bag. Ag dealers can get some things, but not everything. Where the water gets muddy is that many of the things you would think they should be able to get they can't, and things that you would never dream they can get they can. You would have to check each and every time. Some ag dealers work with industrial dealers and vise versa too making it possible for both to handle both. I hope I have not muddied the water to much with this post .
That's exactly what I'm talking about Greg...So the bottom line is don't count on being able to run down to the nearest ag dealer and get parts. I figured that would be the case. I've been very fortunate with my Komatsu skid steer, but the times I have had to go to a dealer they seem to be knowledgeable and not trying to bend me over price wise. I've read some nasty postings about cat dealers...I'm sure it can happen with all of them...just got to watch your back side.
pull oil samples. run vin at cat dealer to see what parts have been purchased recently. forget the d3, it has dry steering clutches. move up to a d4c or 5 with wet clutches and hand controls. i am located in sourthern oklahoma if you want to see my dozer.
Thanks Lindsey- exactly the kind of feedback I'm looking for. Where do you take samples for analysis? Maybe I should have asked earlier, but here goes...how does one figure out how the various numbering systems (D3B, D4C...) correspond to year model, HP, features, etc of these machines? Does this ID tell whether the machine has direct drive, power shift, hydro? I know that the higher the number the higher the HP, but does it always correspond to a larger machine (frame)? Does this ID system apply to all types of machines? What about JD, Komatsu and others? I see guys throwing out numbers and have to go and Google them to figure out what they are talking about... Thanks again. -SS
a C model is later model than a B model but still share alot of parts. a D3 is approx 70hp, no turbo, 3204 motor. a D4 has wet steering clutches, same motor, but turned up to 80hp, a little more top end rpm. a d5 has a turbo added, and rated at 90hp. the track frames are different too. a d5 has 2 more bottom rollers thana d3, and 1 more than a d4. they all have different blade and track configurations, and there are several updates to the tranmissions on the inside. most machines in general have a vin number, and then each power compnonent has an arrangement number, and then a serial number on each one. most of the above info applies to case 550, 650, 750 series of dozers, and the deere 450, 550, 650, 700 series. to pull and oil sample, you warm up the machine and drain a small amount of oil from each desired compartment with a kit purchased from cat for around $15. best money you will ever spend when gambling on someone else's used equipment. also consider purchasing a raytek $40 laser thermommeter from napa. great for checking components while test driving a machine.
Many D3C machine have wet steering clutches. You can tell because there will be a pipe plug in the side of the main frame of the tractor behind the final drives an little more than half way down. Model numbers generally refer to the size, weight and horsepower of the machine. Serial numbers are usually a coded number that identifies the model, series and when and where the machine was built. At times it will also denote the configuration. You can obtain serial number books from different sources. The one I use is put out by the AGC and is very comprehensive and expensive. If you find a unit you are interested in, I'm sure someone here will decode the serial number. The oil sample issue is a little different can of worms. Sampling programs are meant to be used over a long term of running the machine. Oil samples are taken by using a vacuum pump and tube to suck oil through the dipstick tube. I don't know of anyone who recommends draining oil to take a sample. What sample programs produce is a trending tool that might give you a hint of when to repair a component before failure. I used to do them religiously when looking at used machines only because my customers were sold a paper bag full of promises of what they could learn from them. Now I don't recommend them to anyone and charge a healthy rate to do them because of the head aches they cause. You not only have to pay for the bottle but also the suction tube. Don't forget the amount of time it takes to get the report back from the lab. Equipment dealers don't change oils in machines just because they think its a good idea. New oil doesn't have much of or any wear materials that might give you a hint of what the insides of a component are doing. The inverse of this statement is that oil that hasn't been changed in a long time, because the owner knows he is getting rid of the machine, will have a lot of wear metals. Just changing the oil will most times cure a dirty print out on a report. The way I use samples now days is as a piece of evidence for something I suspect. If I pull the dipstick on the engine and see some white oil on the inside of the top of the dipstick cap, I'll sample the oil looking for coolant. If the oil is solid black and very thick and there is a lot of blow by coming out of the breather I'll want to know copper, lead and soot levels. Sometimes I'll see signs of a hydraulic system being overheated with leaking cylinders and bleeding hoses and know there is also high particle counts. The sample will back up my statement to the customer. I never sample final drives anymore. Unless the oil has just been changed, they will always be high on steel. There may be dirt in those samples but changing the oil almost always fixes that problem. If there was a lot of dirt in the oil the sprocket seals would be leaking anyway. If you are negotiating with a dealer you might get them to do oil sample reports on their dime. You best bet is to find a knowledgeable person to give you a hand in looking at a prospective purchase. Good Luck!
Good Stuff Guys! As far as track lengths and widths, I'm thinking that I would be better served by short, narrow tracks since I'm mostly working on hard, rocky ground where flotation is not an issue. Am I thinking about this correctly? The less track to ground contact, the more maneuverability and less stress on the undercarriage... Love the advice Y'all keep it coming! -SS
3204 engines cores are tough to come by. I've seen core charges of $5000 out there.
I am seeking advice on how to remove a head from a d4c. mine has set for awhile and now it wont turn over. going to see if pistons can be freed up with oil with head off. i want to trade the machine for a smaller one
Rather than removing the head have you considered removing the injectors and getting some lube into the cylinders that way, or even removing the intake manifold and spraying WD40 or something similar into the holes.? it's likely that the even the instake valves that are closed will leak a bit and let some of what you spray in there down into the cylinders.
a used 3204 block will bring $5000 here buying a non runner is a pig in the poke could have transmissions or convertor problems so if you buy it you better be ready for unexpected issues. If I had a Nickle for every time a seller said everything else is OK I could retire. Just got a 416 back hoe in that customer bought with it not moving. seller said it just needs a oil change it was running when parked. Well it has 0 trans pressure So now I have to tear it down and his good deal just went by by
Old post warning: Terry, Nige and Dave are from this decade. You say it won't turn over, what have you tried already? And how many hours on the engine, and how long has it sat?
Yeah, it's better to start a new thread than piggyback another one, especially if it's 8 years old.
Any discussion about 3204 catches my attention. Im nursing my old 910 Cat loader along ,5 years ago had a Cat mechanic walk by by it andshake his head at the blowby . Its still doing ok for part time work today
They are known for blowby due to only 2 piston rings. 3 ring pistons are big improvement. Have read it's difficult to do a proper blowby test on them because they have more than normal when new.