Does anyone know exactly how this relay works? It has something to do with getting the dozer to shut off.
Here is a wiring diagram I found on this site. What I am trying to do is figure out how this works and is there a way to bypass it and rig up a separate switch or button. I think there is a power problem with this black box.
I tried to find some info but it seems to be thin on the ground. I haven't had experience of this "timer" but the more I look at it the more I suspect that it functions almost like a relay to provide sufficient power to hold the engine shutdown solenoid closed all the time the engine is running. As soon as you turn the key switch off (kills power on Pin 5 - 308 wire) it kills power to the shutdown solenoid via the 327 pink wire and the engine stops. What exactly is the machine doing or not doing..? Diagnostic should be relatively simple. 1. Do you have battery power between wires 359 Blue and 200 Black with the main disconnect switch contacts closed..? 2. Do you have battery power between wires 308 yellow & 200 black when you turn the machine key (ignition) switch on..? 3. Do you have power between wire 327 pink and machine frame ground at the engine shutdown solenoid when the machine key switch is on..? Edit: Looking at your first photo the spade terminals in the red wire and the yellow wire between the black Deustch connector and the timer don't strike me as being original. Has someone been in there before you..?
What are the problems that it's causing to the machine? Looking for symptoms.
Problems are the engine will not shutdown when key is turned to off position. Not Ignition Switch have already changed it to a new one. No difference. You can try to turn the key back to the run position but the gauges and the warning lights on the panel will not come back on. Leave the key in the run position and increase the throttle to full and the lights and gauges will come back on. But you still cannot shut down the engine. Yesterday I had the engine panel off and was playing around with the wiring on the Shut Down Time Relay and finally got it to shut the engine off. This is a new Shutdown Timer Relay. I suspect something to do with 12volts. Bad Battery or Alternator. What I am trying to find out is there a important reason for this relay and can it be bypass somehow with a separate button to shut down the engine.
I don't know about the rest of the problems or this mystery device, but this statement indicates to me that the alternator is self exciting at increased RPM and back feeding something through the regulator or lamp terminals and bringing it all back to life again.
I think BV is correct.. I've seen this happen tooo many times on other equipment.. The alternator is sending power.. I'm no good at reading schematics but I do know shut down solenoids.. it seems that its ENERGIZED to shut down?? voltage is supplied TO THE SOL. to activate it to shut off.. where most other sol. are ENERGIZED to RUN.. voltage is supplied to the sol. to keep it running & voltage is stopped to get it to shut off.. I don't see why you couldn't run a hot wire off the battery momentarily to "try it".?? depending on the voltage of the equipment & the voltage of the solenoid.. Meaning, if the engine systems are 24v & the solenoid is 12v.. DONT try it.. you'll fry the solenoid.
Twin Batteries. Both Positives are hooked together and Both Negatives are. Makes this a 12v System correct? If I did apply 12v power to the SOL which wire would I do it on? Would the idea of having to apply power to the SOL mean that maybe there is not 12v coming from the battery when the key is turned off?
The electrical schematic for the machine shows that the solenoid is grounded via the machine frame. With the machine being 12V negative ground it would be necessary to supply 12V+ to the connection/terminal on the solenoid (there is only 1 connection on it). If the engine is running that should energize the solenoid and shut off the engine. Even with the engine not running applying 12V+ to the solenoid you should hear it click. My 2c.
When it operates correctly: Turning the Key to Off will shutdown the engine. A few seconds after that you will hear the click.
So that's the function of the timer.........to put a delay into the system from the time you turn the key to the solenoid actually working and shutting the engine off. If you apply 12V+ directly to the solenoid connector, even with the engine not running, you should hear it click. Have you tried that..? that would prove if the solenoid was working correctly. Also have you tried the other diagnostic steps from my post #3 above..?
This sounds like a problem I watched on a Komatsu D21 few weeks ago , it was heat related , once fella let it idle for a while and cool there was no problem . Not a good idea to run a motor with the key off even for a moment . Surely it needs power to the solenoid to keep it running so disconnecting power to it at the solenoid spade should stop her otherwise in a needed shutoff
I don't know if the Yellow and Red wire have been fooled with. This is the old SOL I took out of machine a few years ago. I could look at the new one to see if it is the same. I was afraid to go poking around with this SOL as I might cause a bigger problem. I am not sure how to do the Diagnostics you mention. Should I pull the connector off the SOL while engine is running and put a tester on the terminals for the plug that is attached to the wire harness.
I would suggest to do all the tests with the engine off, as follows: - 1. Disconnect the timer from the machine harness (black 6-pin connector). 2. Master switch ON, key switch off. Put a tester between the wires 359 Blue and 200 Black on the connector. You should see 12V. 3. Master switch ON, key switch ON. Put your tester between the wires 308 Yellow & 200 Black on the connector. You should see 12V, it will disappear if you have someone turn off the key swtich while your tester is still connected. 4. With the Master switch ON, key switch off, & the timer still disconnected from the machine harness. Put 12V+ to either wire 327 Pink on yourr 6-pin connector or run 12V+ direct to the solenoid. Does the solenoid click..? Post back your with findings.
I would suggest that you do all the tests with the engine off, as follows: - 1. Disconnect the 6-pin connector for the timer. 2. Master Switch ON, key switch OFF. Connect your tester between the wires 359 Blue and 200 Black. You should have 12V. Turn the master switch off with the tester connected and the 12V should disappear. 3. Master Switch ON, key switch ON. Connect the tester between wires 308 Yellow and 200 Black. Again you should have 12V that disappears if you turn off the key switch. 4. Connect 12V+ to whichever is easiest, direct to the terminal on the solenoid or to the wire 327 Pink at the 6-pin connector of the timer. Does the solenoid click..? Post back with your findings.
I understand 1,2 and 3. On #4 Are you saying to put 12v+ on the connector that is inside the machine on the harness (Pink)? Or do you mean to put 12v+ on the SOL Connector (Pink) which is (White)?
It may be easier to simply connect 12V to the 327 Pink wire in the 6-pin connector. That will test the harness and the solenoid at the same time.
check for blocking diode in alternator excitation input from switch or what ever input is used.
Not sure if the same problem on my D4C, but what I did was adjusted the throttle linkage to the injector pump and just shut off engine with the throttle. It works for me.
Update: Back in the compartment that has the batteries on the left side of the machine there are 2 Black Relays and 2-3 Round Silver Relays. They replaced 1 of the Black Relays and 2 of the Round Silver Relays. So far it is working.
Here is the final report on this condition. It was none of the above. The problem was Rats. Thats right Rats chewed threw the Postive Cable that leads from the battery connector up to the relays on the left side of the machine. Moisture was getting in and causing the intermittent problem of not shutting off and not turning on. Had this problem for several years and how I found it was one time i could not get it to turn on. Wiggled the wires and it turned on. After that tried it several times. Finally found the chewed insulation around the backside of the wire. Considering it solved. Thanks for everyones input on this.
So I am also having this problem currently and can explain this a little further for y’all, How that engine shutdown timer works is two folds, one when you shut the key off it provides a few seconds of power to the fuel shut off solenoid toilet the engine completely shut down. Two when the ecu or system registers a major fault where damage is going to occur or likely to it keeps power to the fuel solenoid to prevent starting and prevent harm to the machine. Our machine that I’m about to post about had a major mishap and I’m stuck on this as well but I got a little further hope it helps you out to explain this
I just posted D4G engine shutdown timer if you search for it you’ll see where I got with that damn Infuriating little box