Hello all, I just purchased a CAT D7G with a Cummins NT855 turbo engine. The engine was blowing oil out of the breather cap and white smoke out the exhaust. I am assuming it needs a complete rebuild. Since the dozer should have a CAT 3306 in it, some previous owner must have swapped it out in the past. The problem is, I cannot find a serial number tag on the engine but the Dozer model year is 2012. I need to order a rebuild kit and looks like there are several different ones for a NT855. Can someone help me identify which kit i should get? is there numbers somewhere on the engine that can tell me exactly what engine I have? or do I need to disassemble it to find out? see attached pics Thanks
There should be an ESN on the block, back top corner on the left side. Under the fuel lines in your first pic That tells you what it started out as. Could have been rebuilt as something else
A 7G in 2012? That don't sound right...
Too right. 1982 maybe, 2012 no chance. EDIT: The first D7H models (that superceded the D7G) were sold in 1985, so the OP's D7G cannot possibly be any newer than that. Also consider this. Without a tractor S/N to go on how can anyone be sure it's even a D7G and not something even older.?
Im attaching pictures of the Dozer. There is a product ID number on the paperwork CATOOD7GK65V09352. maybe someone can estimate the year. I was told it was a 2012 from the previous owner. But my main concern is rebuilding the engine at this point.
The front grill looks more like a Komotsu than a Cat? D85 maybe?
Maybe Chinese copy of a CAT? Lots of those here in the Philippines.
you maybe right. Looks a lot like a Komotsu and they had the NT855 engines in them
My info shows 65Vxxxx in production up to 2003 but my publication was printed in 2004 so may go a bit higher. Engine is a 3306DIT. Shows 65V9263-up in 2003.
Something created when the Cummins repower was done maybe.? Definitely does not look like a Cat hardnose from that period. Also the ripper appears to be wrong for a Cat of that era. 17-character PINs on Cat machines were not introduced until around the year 2000 or thereabouts so IMHO that is bogus for a kickoff. The first 65V machines were built in Japan in 1979. Can you find something made from cast steel ANYWHERE on that tractor with "CAT" or a Part Number cast into it.? If you can please take photos and post them up. Also post photos of the inside of the cab to give an idea what the controls, etc, look like. See this link and note the differences - https://midwestmilitaryequipment.com/caterpillar-d7g-dozer-with-cab-and-ripper-ex-military-machine/
Looks a lot like a Komatsu D85….
Thanks for the info. Im getting more convinced it is a Komotsu D85, would make sense with a Cummins NT855 engine. I will take more pics when I get back to the dozer next week. Im out of town at the moment
It's a Chinese copy of the D7G with a Chinese-built 855 Cummins and an altered hardnose that makes it look almost like a Komatsu. This seller even tries to claim it's powered by a Cat 3306T, but one look tells you it's an 855. Used Caterpillar D7G crawler bulldozer D7G - n°7931037 Used Caterpillar D7G crawler bulldozer D7G, 上海市 - Ad n°7931037. See used on Europe Construction Equipment. www.europe-construction-equipment.com I'm not sure if the Chinese got the O.K. from Cat to copy the D7G or just went into unapproved production with a modified version, knowing full well any patents would have expired by the time they started building them (around the late 1990's, I STR). They're using the Caterpillar name and Cat logos, so I suspect they're approved by Cat, otherwise Cat would have taken them to the cleaners for unauthorised use of the Cat name and logos. Some of this stuff is built only for 3rd world countries where emission controls and laws are lax. If you try to import them into a Western country, you won't get them past Customs as they fail to meet emissions laws.
That be a Komatsu D 85-18 I would say. The rippers, Hyd tank & engine all match a D 85 - 18, they had the Cummins 855 in them @ 220 HP.
They continued to make D7G's well into the 2000's at least the 65V series. In fact today (or they still did a couple of years ago) Cat make a variant of the D6H having finally stopped building the D6D, which turned into the D6E then D6G. They made them as non-electronic machines for countries without any high tech repair places.
They be **** poor dealers if they don't know a Cat from a Komatsu, thats deceptive packaging at its best. LOL.
I delivered a new Massey-Ferguson tractor up to a place and buried in the weeds was an older Komatsu D-85. Owner said it belonged to his dad and did run but needing something I can't remember. Ball of rust from being outside and not taken care of it was. I've not been around Cat, or Komatsu much at all but initially I thought it was Caterpillar as that is what the son called it. I climbed into the operator station and it clearly had a Komatsu badge on it and a manufacture date of 1982. I didn't see the front but the fuel, and oil tanks looked like the photo from what I could see.
Taiwan doesn't recognize patents so China might not either. Unfortunately getting parts for the dozer in question may be very difficult. Especially in some countries you really need to research and have someone experienced look over any machines you're considering to purchase.
From the 2002 Cat performance handbook.
Went to the Canton Fair in Guangzhou back in the mid 2000's. There was a complete fake D6 high track dozer on display. China could care less about patents in my experience.
Yeah Im finding out there is lots of "copies" of CAT equipment in China for some reason, excavators, backhoes and dozers. one sale lady proudly admitted to me the brand new backhoe she was selling was a exact copy of a CAT and claimed even all the parts are exchangeable! I should have done more research before I purchased this one....
Probably so.
Interesting that the PHB states "not sold in US, Canada, Japan, or Europe". Must have been one of the first machines designed solely for sale in LRC (Less Regulated Countries). Still listed as being fitted with a 3306 engine though. My personal opinion is that it's not a knock-off or anything else shady APART FROM THE FACT that the seller has taken a Komatsu D85 tractor and re-badged it as a Caterpillar D7G in order to get a higher price for it from some poor sucker (sorry Rob) who can't see past the Cat decals and the nice shiny "DuPont overhaul".
Right on , the whole machine just looks like a D85, because it is a D85-18, deceptive packaging at its best, LOL. Just like people who put D 10N stickers on a D 9L to get a higher hourly rate, they are out there for sure. But on the other side there was nothing wrong with the D 85-18, more power than D7 G, 85 E models had a longer track frame as in 7 rollers which the D 7 never had so in some ways were a step ahead of a D7, just because it don't have CAT on it don't mean it aint no good, Komatsu dozers are No2 in the world theses days because they are up there with the best.
There's a difference between an actual Komatsu and a Chinese copy. How much difference is anybodies guess.
There are lots of intriguing Cat machines commonly found on machinery trading websites with Asian based addresses. I fear that they may be your best option in contacting them for parts or advice.
Interesting thread, I wonder why they went to the trouble of obscuring the badge in the front shroud and place CAT stickers on this machine? it's clearly a Komatsu dozer, and a D85-18 most likely. Who did they intend to fool....and why? Just thinking out loud here.
I bet if I put a double RR on the grill to replace the faded blue oval on my 2006 Ford Ranger I could find someone to buy this "Rare" one off Rolls Royce pick-up truck!
You’d be suprised at the amount of people out there that know of the Cat brand but have no idea what one really is. The world is a big place with plenty of totally uneducated races who have it bred into their culture to buy cheap, You don’t see Cat machines badged up as Komatsu
Simple. They could ask a higher price for the tractor if it had Cat decals on it than they could if it had Komatsu ones. Who did they intend to fool.? Well they managed to fool the OP who was the person who handed over the cash for it. That’s all they needed.
If all things are equal , tracks , hours etc , he has a dozer equal to any D7G . Should be a bit heavier . Repairs of the motor will be cheaper unless chinese knock off parts are used to repair a D7G . I don't see D8K's sell more expensively than Komatsu D155 of the same age , quite the reverse . One D155-2 sold in a couple of weeks recently , tidy machine and not cheap either .
If people buy used equipment solely on the label someone has slapped on a new coat of 1/4 inch paint, they'll always get what they pay for. jmho
So based on the conclusions of the HEF massive, what Rob needs to be looking for in the way of parts & service information are manuals for a Komatsu D85-18, not a Cat D7G.
No, Rob needs to rebuild a Cummins small cam, or possible clone Truck Shop can probably give him a good CPL to build if the ESN doesn’t seem right
I would have thought the Komatsu Parts Manual and service information would contain all the information regarding the engine. If not then what you are suggesting makes perfect sense.
It may not need a complete rebuild but the bigger question is parts. Will Cummins or aftermarket Cummins parts fit or would parts be specific to who ever made this particular engine? If it is a direct copy and Cummins parts will work, great. Maybe it is an actual Cummins engine?? If it has the engine tag should be able find out if it is an actual Cummins or not. The other thought is if it's an exact copy a real Cummins could be dropped in. I would suspect there's lots of decent used 855's around.
Not sure if it's 'perfect sense' or not, but we're looking at a possible copy/clone dozer with a possible copy/clone engine. The engine may or may not be the right CPL for that application. Maybe the cloner found some generators and decided to throw them in a dozer. We just don't know The problem stated in the first post is engine trouble, that's what Rob needs to fix. Finding an ESN on the block is what I recommended. Compare that to what a real Komatsu should have had. Check with the CPL book to see how it compares to what's available now. Truck Shop can probably recommend alternatives since he knows the 855 front to back
I rebuilt a couple of 855 Komatsu engines using Cummins parts they worked out well. CPL 0160 if memory is correct.
That's the big question, will Cummins or Cummins aftermarket parts fit if it is a clone??? I know some of the small Honda clone engines can use Honda parts but a Cummins 855 is a whole other animal.
The Komatsu-Cummins engines and the American Cummins components are highly interchangable. But the Chinese Cummins are a whole new ball game again. Despite reportedly being built with Cummins approval, I believe there are numerous parts on the Chinese Cummins that do not interchange with Komatsu-Cummins or American Cummins engines. We've got Chinese 2.8L Cummins here, installed in the Chinese commercial vehicles, such as Foton, that use specifically Chinese components, Cummins don't know anything about them.
Cat Japanese and American engine parts are interchangeable as well.
It would be interesting to see what the name is that is blotted out on the front shroud on the dozer in question. Might not help the issue but it may very well help were the engine parts could be found.
The name that is blotted out, is "Caterpillar". The Chinese know that Cat will come after them if they sell these machines outside China wearing Cat names and logos. Inside China - it's a different story. Chinese Caterpillar D7G's rule! LOL This product is no longer available. This product is no longer available. www.alibaba.com
That solves the mystery, I wonder why that badge was blotted out in the OP's photos but the decals were not? Or maybe the only person in the thread that didn't know it was a Chinese built Cat clone was me...lol
Strange relationship, many of the new CAT pieces sold by CAT here in America are manufactured in China or at least some of the new excavators are.
If it was painted green it might be a Oliver 85-----really makes no difference to me, but--. * Whether it's a total forgery-There are a few choices for Cummins HP ratings with the small cam. But more than likely as said earlier a CPL of something like 160. Why? because it was a common CPL used by Cummins for rebuilding the NTC 335, and this one has no aftercooler but has a turbo so more than likely a 335. Now it still has what looks to be a real Cummins PT Pump or it could be a copy too, But the pump calibration coding tag is still on the pump-so it will say what the OP has, if he hasn't been scared off by now. I doubt the engine has any changes from a real Cummins, what's the point when your building copies. Plus pump has a VSG so probably real. *
The tractor is actually a Shantui TY220E. The previous posters who identified it as a Komatsu D85E copy are correct - I was wrong with my ID, thinking it was a Chinese copy of a D7G. The tractor in the story below is an older version of the Shantui TY220E, with open ROPS. But it's essentially the same as the OP's tractor, his just has the glass enclosed ROPS cab. If you click on the video and bring it up to full screen size, the story is quite revealing. Shantui sold a few of these tractors in Australia and a few more have probably been imported, used. I don't really know why the Chinese are hiding the Shantui name and selling them as D7G's - but I guess it's simply that a D7G will sell, whereas a Shantui TY220E won't! Shantui 220hp bulldozer | Review Ron Horner tried out a Chinese-manufactured Shantui 220hp bulldozer and found it ticks plenty of boxes www.tradeearthmovers.com.au The site below sells parts for the TY220, so I would say parts availability isn't a major problem for them. If the worse comes to the worst, the OP can always buy Komatsu parts, they will more than likely fit! TY220 kits recoil,shantui bulldozer spare parts – LUSENG
yeah.
The interesting thing about Cummins is that they have no less than 6 Joint Ventures into building engines in China - and they have been in China for a long time, from the early 1980's. The initial Cummins foray into China was to build Chinese Cummins engines for sale and use within China. But of course, the Chinese are in this to make money, and they want to export their engines, too - and to show off their manufacturing skills. However, as we all know, Chinese-built products are slow to be accepted, and they're often seen as sub-standard. The Chinese are making strenous strides to address this, and they go into JV with as many Western companies as they can, to try and acquire the technology they need to become respected players on the global market. They are gradually getting better - but they don't help themselves with corruption, devious sales and marketing - and worse - fraudulent Chinese engine manufacturers who simply copy the authorised Chinese Cummins engines, as well as other brands. Caterpillar ran into this problem with their Perkins JV that went sour, and the Chinese company just kept manufacturing counterfeit Perkins engines! But Shantui appear to be reasonably honest operators, and have been building copies of the Komatsu tractors for quite some time now, and they have turned out to provide reasonably good service. But the Chinese problems still remain - "Chinglish" instead of understandable English, parts and service backup that is scattered and disorganised - tractor name changes by the month, and an inability to understand that a "Brand Name" is only established with constant effort and striving to meet the buyers requirements.
Cummins has no less than 30 plus factories world wide cranking out castings.
Which model Cats sold in the US (not grey market) are made in China?
Of all the things discussed, it baffles me how they can never seem to find 2 or 3 Americans to sit behind a computer and put out proper English manuals that are correct and proof read. It can't be that expensive in their grand scheme of how much money runs through a company that builds bulldozers.
I think the problem is that the proof reading needs to be done by someone with technological knowledge to make sure the translation makes sense from an english perspective and not just a ‘close’ translation. The same thing happens in a lot of other imported products
And therein lies the key. You don't just need someone who speaks English as a first language and the language the manual is being translated from as a second language. You also need someone who has a deep technical knowledge of the machine systems. People like that don't grow on trees. I recall a few years ago in S America the locals in multiple countries complained they couldn't understand Spanish versions of Cat manuals. It turned out that the translation of the original English manuals was being done by a bunch of Cubans based in the Miami Cat office. The problem was that their version of Spanish was different to Latin American Spanish. What we ended up doing as a dealer was to "cut out the middle man" and teach all our senior techs, plus anyone else who was interested, to read in English. It worked very well.
The US has 300 million people. Surely they could find 3 or 4 that could both translate and understand what they are translating. Not to mention if you go through all 400 million and can't find 1 or 2 you could go to Canada, England or Australia.
Here is a 6 year old video showing a 307E2 coming off the line. It seems to be about as clear as mud to figure out. I think all the minis are made in China from the 308 on down, but I don't have supporting documentation.
Yea but you would still see some little things to confuse us Americans. Not sure it would come into play but if a Brit was doing the translation and suggested using paraffin to clean parts an American would confused not knowing the Brit was referring to what we call kerosene. I recall seeing a chart on a car forum or magazine years ago that translated US to British terms. Here's just a quick one I found: In American, Please: Translations of Common British Car & Driving Terms - The News Wheel If you’ve ever spend time around someone from the United Kingdom, including Great Britain, you’ll quickly realize that even though you’re both speaking English, you’re not really speaking the same language. There are numerous terms and idioms that are commonly used on the other side of the... thenewswheel.com
Wow, went from a question about a generic dozer with generic cummins power to Chinglish and Spanglish--I answered his question but by the time I found the thread I think he already ran off. * Case of forged heavy equipment {Closed}.
wait wait we're not done
Beat the **** out of this one for sure.
Don't think I have ever seen a 307E2 in person. Might be an Asian model machine only. Our 305E is made in the US along with the 306, 308 and 309's we've rented.
This 307E2 is in SW Washington. I didn't take a picture of the data plate but it said Made in China.
Shouldn't that picture be on "overload of the day"?
A nice Trail King though.
The new CAT 310 excavators that I've seen listed on The Machinery Trader website that have shown the serial # tag has said made in China.
Here's a 2019 model, the first one that pops up when you search Cat 310 on the Machinery Trader dot com website.
Since we still seem to be beating this dead horse Here's another, the second one, this is a 2022 This ones in Texas
Oh the cruel world and all it's forgeries--just another day. The tricks corporations and nations play. It's all about the money-greed.
Yea! but with my Ford Ranger parked under the gooseneck! Wish I had thought of it back when I worked at the shop. I probably could have got a picture of a 988B or 769D sitting on a tri-axle trailer with something like a F-150 positioned like it was going to tow it!
I will look but I have a photo from years back with my 1958 B-61 connected to a beam trailer w/a brand new D-11 tractor on the beams. It takes five loads to transport one of those as some know so this was just the main dozer unit without the blade, tracks, roller frame, push beams, and some of the undercarriage parts. Of course the photo was staged. I had just purchased that B-61 and a heavy hauler brought it to the Daily Express yard in Morton, IL where many new Cat items are staged for shipping. I took the opportunity to back that old truck under the trailer to snap the photo. Don't know if I could have even thought about pulling it. Have to look for that photo but it's a Polaroid snap being that old. This is the truck in my newly completed shop back in 2001: Still have the truck and if I'd get off my cheeks and put it back together.....
well here is an update. Im back working on the engine, still cannot find a engine tag anywhere. Here are some pics of the rocker case. Looks like a Chinese character at the end of the casting number? So far besides a bunch of water everywhere, the rockers and valve train looks good. Maybe just a blown head gasket? I will find out more when I take the heads off.
How are we going to keep all that dirt out of the crankcase?
im going to take it all apart and clean it. Everything has water in it also.
I would sure want to see all that external dirt cleaned off before anything internal saw daylight.
The part number 3418752 is a recognised 855 Cummins number for the rocker housing. However, it's obsolete/NLA in the U.S., but still readily available from quite a number of Chinese parts suppliers. The engine is manufactured by the Chinese Cummins Joint Venture company, CCEC (Chongquing Cummins Engine Company). EMAC is the CCEC sales and marketing division, based in Hong Kong. CCEC appears to no longer build the NTA855 engine (they are building later model Cummins engines), but they (and other Chinese companies) still supply parts for the 855 engine. Company Introduction: CCEC Engine Company | Chongqing Cummins-CCEC CCEC, Ltd. is a Sino-US joint venture. It was established in October 1995 and is located in the Martyrs' Tomb in Shapingba District, Chongqing City. The Chinese parent company is Chongqing Electromechanical Co., Ltd. ccec-engine.com https://www.dieselpartdirect.com/en/product/CCEC-Cummins-NTA855-Engine-Parts.html
CPL will be on that tag on injection pump-although it might be in chinese.
I looked at these chinese new Komatsu about 1997 as they were selling them new in australia they were older model dozers the one i looked at was a d85-6 from memory . had a video of them being manufactured not much health and safety there the track gear was made on a automated factory that was set up by a german company pricing for a new one was about the same as a late used one. the main issue for me was lack of resale value