Anybody experience this on a 46A29585 vintage Cat? When my D8H gets warm, (30-45 min of run time), the hydraulics slow down, and the pump starts making groaning noises. Changed the filter in the tank, replaced the hyd oil with Tractor Hyd 303; problem persists. The hyd oil tank gets very hot, after running for 30-45 min. Not sure how or where hyd oil cooler is, but engine water runs nice and cool; hard to make her go above 140 degrees.
Sounds like a worn out pump. Later Bob
Bob, does that model run with a pressurized tank to keep the pump suction from cavitating..? If yes then maybe the valve on top of the tank might be leaking or even the tank cap might not be sealing properly thus causing the tank not to maintain pressure when the oil gets hot. I think I'd be checking just so I could eliminate it as a possible cause that before moving to the pump. To the OP, can you find a plate on the side of the hydraulic tank that gives the Serial Number of the Hydraulic Control..? It will be a 183 Control of some vintage or other but there are about 10 different options. A question regarding the 303 oil. What oil was in the system previously..? Did the length of time it took for the pump noise to develop from cold increase when you changed the oil for the THF303..?
My D8H has the big ripper rack. See # on the tank is 59P4317
The 303 oil has a higher viscosity than the 10 weight recommended by Cat. Thought that might help the pump, but it didn't make any difference. Pump whine comes on at about the same run-time. (30-45 min).
If it turns out that the pump is just worn out, what is the best bang for the buck? OEM Cat? Cat reman? Or aftermarket?
I'm currently running the machine and am in a hurry to get it corrected. Thanks for your great input; very credible
The tank has no valve just sealed cap. Just change the cartridge. Later Bob
Bob, that pump has 2 cartridges - 14gpm & 21gpm. Is the 21gpm one for the hydraulic system and the smaller one for the transmission..? To the OP. Things get a bit complicated when it comes to the pumps. It's a vane pump which doesn't like dirt, so if you have (or had) leaking hydraulic cylinders that could well be what's taken your pump out. You may have to dig under the floor in your tractor and get a Part Number from the pump. I'm showing a pump P/N 7J-4634 which is cancelled, therefore that would imply that spare parts are no longer available for it and if your pump is that Part Number then replacing it would be the only option. There is a later pump which is the replacement for 7J-4634 which is a 9J-5058. Spare parts are available for that pump but what complicates things is that there are 2 variantions of 9J-5058 (Type 1 & Type 2) and each verison uses different cartridge Part Numbers. Cat do not do a Reman pump, so you would be working with a hydraulic shop or other supplier. I would suggest that you first identify what Part Number of pump you actually have. Once you have that then go shopping for parts for it. Try Offroad Equipment www.offroadeq.com for parts.
The pump uses both sections for the hydraulics. The large section is for the blade lift and the small section is for the blade tilt. Later Bob
Thank you, Bob and Nigel. I'm waiting on service manual and parts manual to arrive( then I'll start digging
Oil should be SAE10W Any problems with oil level in tank? Check for air being drawn into system, bad shaft seal, flange seals etc. Flow restriction (collapsed hose) or air will cause noisy pump and/or high oil temperature. There is no oil cooler.
Thank you Old Magnet; where is the pump? How difficult to remove? Will be my first pump r&r
Under the floor boards, RH side back of flywheel housing. Bit of a job, lots of hoses and lines. If oil temperature has been getting as high as 210 deg. F. it will destroy seals and degrade hoses.
I think I'm on to the problem; I have a small #10 cap, which is located under the tank for draining of the hydraulic reservoir. After running the machine this morning for 45 min, the pump started getting noisy and weak, so I shut the machine down. I waited for an hour, then proceeded to loosen this drain fitting under the tank, as soon as I cracked the cap loose, a tremendous gurgling sound was evident within the tank. I then climbed aboard and cracked the filler cap loose, and more air sounds. Question: "How is that machine hydraulic system engineered? Is it vented to atmosphere? Is there a vent?
My service manual is on the way, but Im anxious to fix it. Thanks for you guys advice and tutoring.leave your address; I'll send $
Tank is not vented. Cat typically uses a sealed tank/air cushion to minimize hydraulic shock and precharge pump suction. Your system is either pulling a vacuum due to loss of fluid/restriction or building up pressure due to air being drawn into the system. Be aware that the Hydraulic System Service Manual and Parts Manual is separate from the general tractor service manuals. You will need manuals covering the 173B & 183B s/n 59P1-up Hydraulic Controls
So you mean it sounded like the tank was sucking air in from the outside as opposed to blowing oil out under pressure..? The hydraulic system is not vented to atmosphere. The filler cap on top of the tank should seal tight and when the oil gets up to operating temperature from cold there should be a small amount of positive pressure inside the tank which helps to push oil into the implement pump suction. Question: The data plate where you found the 59P4317 Serial Number. Does it by any chance also have an Arrangement Number (maybe something like 3P1200) stamped on it..?
There is a check ball (vacuum break vent) in the tank cap but it may not be working.
It might not even be there at all......
Without the check ball the system would be vented to atmosphere assuming the passage is open. I'm thinking collapsed hose somewhere in the system. Tank/pump suction is hard plumbed.
That's why I was asking for the Arrangement Number to know exactly what the plumbing looks like. There are a dozen or so variants of the 183B Hydraulic Control for a 36A/46A D8H. To the OP. This is what your hydraulic tank cap should look like. #33 is the ball, #34 is a flat circular steel plate, and a circular rubber gasket/seal that is not numbered but I've circled it in red.
Agreed, an arrangement number would be nice to have. If not the 3P1200, 3P1201, arrangements a pretty near identical, the 3P1198 being a little different and these are replacements for earlier arrangements.
Well, the tank filler cap has a 1/8" female pipe threads; I guess to receive that heck ball addy that you mention. The ck ball was not there, but a 1/8" pipe plug.
Do you want to post a photo of that..? The neck on the tank where the fillar cap mounts should be about 2" in diameter at the very least.
Sounds like somebody drilled and tapped the vent hole in the cap?
Would be ironic to find out this whole business is caused by a plugged vacuum breaker but it certainly is possible. Replacing with a correct working cap would be first move. Nige!!! How are we going to split the fee !!!! LOL.
Hard copy shows gasket #9H6454
That diagram I am showing is not from the OP's D8H because the illustrations from the 183B Hydraulic Control Parts Manual do not reproduce well. It's a hydraulic tank from another model of machine to illustrate what should be there. Concur on the 9H-6454 Gasket, in fact the unidentified gasket in the illustration above is actually a 9H-6454 but it's listed in a different illustration which explains why it's not in this one.
The ball #33 in the pictures above is NOT a check ball. IN this style cap that ball is only to allow the plate #32 to sit nice and flat on the gasket #9H6454. Probably also reduces friction some to clamp the gasket a bit better.
Well that blows that theory!!! Are you sure there isn't a small drilled hole above the ball? Seems check ball would be a natural. Makes sense as I know earlier version hydraulic tank caps do not have vacuum breaks. Can't seem to find any really clear details of the cap otherwise.
That cap is used in many places even HPUC loaders and they are all the same. The ball forces the plate down on the rubber gasket that holds the plate and ball in place as well as seals the cap. Once the cap is loosened the pressure gets by the gasket and out a small drilled hole exiting the cap by the threads of the neck. Trash the cap shell and get a new ball as well. Then take the pump off and replace the worn out cartridge. Make sure the GPM is equal, # stamped on cam ring. Also make sure it is assembled to run in the same rotation as the one you take off. Second thought check assembly of the cartridge perchance it's assembled wrong. take and post photos. Later Bob
I'd recommend running a pressure test on the pump before ripping everything apart. I don't have specifics on the D8H but the D8K has relief valve setting at 2500 psi on the tilt circuit and 2400 psi on the dozer and ripper circuits.
This is my first attempt at hydraulic diagnosis and repair; it is obvious that it is not your first time. What kind of procedure should I expect? Need I drain the tank? Couple of floor plates? A few easy to access hose removal? Or is it nite mare hiding, waiting for me?
You need a gauge in the outlet of the large pump section. The line to the dozer lift cylinder must be plug as the cylinder has a valve in it to prevent loading at end of stroke. Check pressure at different engine speeds. should hold 90% of full throttle reading at low setting. Later Bob
Thanks Bob; I'll dig into this soon
Will do it; I like this kind of stuff; education is not a means to life; education is life...... Someone said
I'll ck on that tomorrow, Nige
Let's clear up the issue of the hydraulic tank filler cap first. Please post a photo of what the cap on the top of the tank looks like as a first step.
Tell me how to post a pic.
Look at the menu that appears directly above your first line of text when you are replying to a post. If you hover your mouse over the third last icon a message "insert image" pops up. Click on that icon then when the insert image box pops up select the location and name of the file you want to put in your post.
That cap looks about right. Does it have the circular metal plate, the gasket, and the ball inside it..? If you carefully remove the rubber gasket the plate and ball should fall out.
Ok, there was no ball inside And the oil is cool enough to hold your hand in/on
Right, so you need an 8T-2275 Ball. It lists at $0.25 from Cat. Without that ball I'm not sure the cap will work correctly by pressurizing the tank when the oil gets up to operating temperature. When you say - "And the oil is cool enough to hold your hand in/on" - had you been working the machine and the pump started making the noise and then you found the oil in the tank was relatively cool..?
Yes, I had been working it for an hour wearing a pin on rootrake
The reason I asked the question was that in your OP you said .... I'm thinking that Bob/Ont is right when he said it is the pump itself that's the problem. Did you find the Arrangement Number of your Hydraulic Control from the plate on the top of the tank..? From that we can get the pump Part Number.
. Hard to read, but in the lower rt corner of the metal tad atop hyd tank, there is an inscribed 8M3094?
Hate to park this very effective dozer, to get replaced by one of those disposable rigs, equipped with Dollar store hardware
I did say that, to mean that the problem was exacerbated in 30-45 min of runtime
I would replace the cap too, don't want dirt getting in the hole and messing things up with dirt and rust. Later Bob
8M3094 is the part number for the tag itself. Check the pump for any part numbers.
Ok, will have to be tomorrow; I'm still running her
Does your unit have the 8D solid link or adjustable ripper?
I'd agree with that. You want a 7H-1447 Cap plus the aforementioned ball plus the 9H-6454 Gasket. I see no reason why the plate won't be good to go again. On another note the inside of the cap looks very dirty, it may just be the photo. However if the oil inside the tank is like that cap that's most likely why your pump has gone out. Vane-type pumps like yours do not like even the smallest speck of dirt in the system.
As far as hyd cylinders leaking, I recently did a complete hyd seal job on all cylinders to include the 4 barrel ripper rack. Only one of the blade lift cylinders will not seal. Will scratches on the chrome keep it from sealing? Or will that just hard on the wiper? Don't know what to do about that; but I do know that if oil is going out (leaking), then dirt is going in. Options to fix?
Close view of front blade lift cylinder chrome rod
That rod really either needs re-choming or replacement, it just depends on what services you have available in your area. Even though the scratches may look insignificant they will let major quantities of dirt in and that dirt will tear up your pump as it circulates round the system because most of it won't get trapped in the filter. If you have resealed so many cylinders up to this point it really would be worth your while to get the last one oil-tight. Also I'd seriously recommend pulling the tank off and cleaning out the inside. If what's on the inside of the cap is any indication you'll be digging dirt out of the bottom of the tank with a shovel........
That rod does look rough! Two options would be finding a shop that rechromes rods. We used to have one near us but the guy retired, plus with the environmental problems of handling the chemicals not too many shops left I guess. Next would be to see if Cat has exchange rods, they have them for many cylinders. Last might be to see if there is an aftermarket supplier for them.
Just to give you an idea I once had a customer running a fleet of tractors with vane-type pumps who couldn't get more than an average of 1000 hours out of them before the pumps **** themselves. According to them it was bad pumps, in fact it the problem was leaking cylinders that were letting dirt in which was taking the pumps out. When we finally managed to convince them to pull the systems down, fix the leaking cylinders, and open up hydraulic tanks they were amazed to find up to 1" of abrasive sludge in the bottom of the tanks.
Cat used to offer those rods reman, may still be available, or CAT classic yeah?
Well ya know contractors..... As long as it's pushing, let her ride! I, however, do not subscribe to that thought process; I'll fix it right
And like one boss from my past tried to tell me: "As long as the oil is coming out the dirt can't get in!" That would be the case if there was always pressure on the head end of the cylinder. But when the ram is going in that is NOT always the case!
Sharp guy
The triple valve arrangement for the 8S, 8U with tilt and adjustable 8D ripper originally is a #8S8666 and is replaced by arrangement #3P1198. Hopefully you can find some numbers on the pump to verify what you have but most likely you will be dealing with the replacement arrangement.
The Vickers cartridge will be stamped with a GPM #, match that and make sure it is set up for the same direction of rotation. Show supplier your old one and have new assembled the same way. Later Bob
The Hydraulic pump has 2 sections as already prompted the small section is commonly called the Tilt Pump, if any section main or tilt is in trouble this will effect both pumps, so check out both sections and fit new case seals through the complete pump,the suction (feed) hose will need checking for any damage also. tctractors
You have to consider the cost of overhauling all those rams against the cost of swapping both the cartridges once in a while. The cartridges are relitivley cheap and easy to replace.If you do them first thing in the morning after the previous days work some of the oil can be held back in the tank and saved.You can also drain it if the valve isn't siezed up after 40 years,not to mention giving it a new filter.
Tony, according to the Parts Manual the suction line is 2 steel tubes #24 & 31 with a coupling in between. The two seal assemblies on that coupling would probably need to be replaced during the pump change because they will have been hot. They are only about $10 each. I think with the state of those rods I would be removing the tank and cleaning the whole thing out while I was doing the pump, just to make sure.
Nigel, if this problem turns out to be a suction leak, that joint (coupling) would appear to be a prime location for a leak. Do you think it be possible to remove the floor plates, wash as best I can, the complete area, then spray some kind of media, shaving cream perhaps, around that location, and all other sealed joints, then run the dozer and look for witness pinholes in the shaving cream? Or maybe inject smoke into dome port of the system, and look for leaks? I have done this on race engines in the past to detect vacuum leaks. Those environments are easier though because everything is clean and sanitary; the dozer will be a grimy place with maybe little viewing access
I'd think about putting something like Vaseline or grease on the outside of the clamps. The problem is that the clamps are 2 semi-circular halves with 2 bolts to pull them together - you're not going to be able to get anything behind those bolts easily. Maybe some of our other members can suggest something. TBH at $20 for the two I'd just replace them on the basis it'll cost you more in time to attempt a diagnosis which may or not be inconclusive than it will to simply replace them right from the start. The Part Number is 7K-1978.
Lots of D8's have been converted to rubber pipe in the U.K. like on the D8K, as damage including wear to these old oil lines is the common thing to see, the chopping off the knackered bit and hooking up A to B with oil feed rubber line is a good cure for something a bit crap like that oil line. in the next few days I am installing a Komatsu CCU on the back of a D8H, that's also a good "Mod" on A D8 tractor, the Hydraulic tank will need to be emptied and checked to do the job handy, I am near sure you can fit a hose tail (SAE) and clamps on the pump end that can be blended in. tctractors
A lot of guys balk at the effort but blank flanging a suspect line and placing it under vacuum is a sure way to check those hidden leaks. Air will go where fluid won't.
Tony,I have a near New Komatsu ccu that's mint if you ever need one.Have all controles
Nige,I generally chuck a couple of gallon of oil into them on a 50 hour week.They only work a few months a year and the cost of rerodding and sealing those rams doesn't faze me too much.Taking that huge rops cab off and removing the tank will enevitably result in me fitting all new hoses,linkages and totally going through the entire tank which would result in a few grand.My own rams on all 9 of my D8's are similar or worse than those pictured.To be fair,I do have a spare set of rams sat on Tony's healing bench that I decided were just too knackered!! For the record my little D5 is starting to show weeps on the ripper rams at 14000 hours.They are in good shape rod wise,but I reakon all seals are getting perished.They will be getting removed shortly as I like to keep it in much better shape than the old D8's as there are far more rams running off that expensive pump that's harder to get at than the 8's.
I ordered a new rod from Cat with a seal kit for the port side blade lift cylinder, I'll be replacing it today, costs $1000 for the rod and $150 for the seal kit; I want it correct; its streaming oil at times and seems like it will be an easy job compared to pump replacement, so I'll tackle that girst
I finally got time to pull the floor plates and ck the hydraulic pump for numbers. There were (4) #'s visible; 2720171, 2884865, 2919651, 2967488. I was expecting a single part #. What's the next step? Tank appeared clean. Looks like a very difficult task to remove! Is it? Or is it my imagination? The suction line is arranged as Nige illustrated it might be, on the suction side.
Answering your last part first. When you go into the pump replace the 2 seals in the flexible coupling between the 2 sections of the suction line between the tank and the implement pump. You need 2 x 2K-1978. Those numbers are not Cat Part Numbers, maybe from the pump manufacturer possibly but I'm clutching at straws there. Can you post a photo of the pump..?
Those look like Vickers part numbers but they don't match up to either the 7J4634 or 9J5058 pump.
I'm thinking those are cast in numbers on the end of the pump opposite to where it mounts to the engine, right? Actual pump numbers would be more like this format: F3 - V 2010 - 1 F 13 S 3 S - 1 CC - 12 - L And the pumps I used to work on had these numbers stamped in about the same size as the letters in this post so they can be hard to see. To break down these numbers you can go to: http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@hyd/documents/content/pll_1567.pdf Problem with Vickers pumps is they can be configured in all kinds of ways, just unbolting the end cap and turning it 90º will make it a different part number. To add another layer of confusion to this, even if you are able to read the stamped in numbers on a machine of this age there is no guarantee the housing the numbers are on is the original one for this application. I would be guilty of mixing and matching pump housings and internals many times over the years. Two bolt flange housing of a single section pump on a Hough 100 might have been used to build a double section pump on a Cat 988A, or the other way around. Not to mention converting a CW pump to be used in a CCW application. Hey you do what you have to to get the machine up in running for the next days production. What I also will feel bad about is if I was still working at the quarry could probably lay my hands on everything to either repair your pump or even build one from scratch and all those parts will end up in a scrap trailer the next time some one gets the urge to neaten up the store room.
Here are the numbers for the pump. Cat #9J5058 = 7J4634 Vickers # F10-2520VQ21A14S-112AC21L167 (two section pump) Also a reference # 433279 I was thinking those numbers are reference numbers, I've seen them before, maybe an old numbering system? Kind of lost track of the original symptoms here. OK, tank gets hot, how about the pump? Need one of those cheap infra red thermometers to shoot temperatures of the hottest spot. Going through the same diagnostics and problem on the ACMOC BB right now, only difference is pump is making noise and hydraulics are weak. Need that pump pressure test. Current suspect on the other 46A is trash in the pilot operated main relief valve under the tank.
Using 3P-1198 as the Arrangement Number leads me to a 7J-0612 Pump Gp. There are 2 types of 7J-0612 Pump - Type 1 & Type 2. Type 1 pump uses a 7J-0573 38gpm cartridge + a 7J-0581 14gpm cartridge. Type 2 pump uses a 7J-0573 38gpm cartridge + a 7J-7967 14gpm cartridge. 7J-0612 as a complete unit services to 9J-5050 Pump Gp or 422-8168 Classic Pump Gp. This is all based on the assumption that the pump that is actually in the tractor is the one that's supposed to be in it according to the Parts Manual...........
My blade lift cyl
The rod that they shipped incorrectly
Measure the length of your rod when ordering. Later Bob
More numbers, Cat #9J5050 = 7J0612 Vickers shows two numbers 3520V-38A14-13BB10-108L 3520V-38A11-13BB10-108L
Check the cylinder barrel close-ish to the head end. There ought to be a data plate that gives the Group Part Number of the cylinder. If you can find that number post it here. Failing that is there a Serial Number on the top RH corner of the back side of the dozer blade..?
Here goes, Nige; taken off the head end of the blade lift cylinder
Closer pic of the riveted round tag
That tag/number is just for the quick drop valve. See if you can find the blade s/n. Back right hand side of mold board.
No information on backside of the big u-blade today that I can read
I removed the blade cylinder today to replace the damaged cylinder Rod; hot it all apart to find that Cat shipped me the wrong rod for my application. Till, I get that cylinder repaired, I'm at a standstill as far as getting the pressure check done. I'll order the (2) clamps that connect the (2) sections of suction hardline.
I show the rod assy to be Part #5J2526. What did they ship you? Big "U" blade should be a 45Kxxxx number. Check for stamped number if tag is gone.
OR-1302/. Rod as-rem. D28M11Y07P4711 Is what they shipped, Old Magnet.
Hohhot, I found these (2) old rivet heads with no metal tag attached anymore. This blade tag was in the upper rt, backside of the u-blade. There was, however, a stenciled (stamping) there. Here it is:
44K5352 is a 8S blade not 8U. Cylinder rod would still be the # I posted.
I always thought that an S blade was a straight dozing blade; I thought my D8 was wearing either a semi U, or a full Ublade.
Well I played around in SIS and found this additional info: The 7J-0573 cartridge that is used in both Type 1 & 2 crossed to a 1U-3953, then to 42600024 Classic or a OR-1505 Reman. Classic is approx. $282.00 Reman $516.00+core The 7J-0581 and the 7J-7967 cartridges both cross to the same 3G-7658 and that crossed to 4260427 Classic or a OR1478. Classic is approx. $182/00 Reman $333.00+core
I suspect your 8S 44K blade has been modified. Here's the big 8U 45K Tag on these turns out to be on the LH side under the shield item 20.
kshansen, Could you check SIS for latest in 5J2526?
My blade appears just like that, Old Magnet; it appears factory made; I'll take pics tomorrow
Well in SIS the 5J2526 goes to a 0R1189 Reman number Checked prices and the 5J2526 is about $1,780.00 The 0R1189 Reman shows as about $796.00 + $980 core charge. However when I checked availability both of them said "Contact Dealer for Availability" Just for giggles did a Google search on that 5J2526 number and one outfit shows having 4 in stock! This is an after market part and a company I have not heard of before. They are asking $372.16. The link to them is: https://tractorzone.com/5j2526-rod-piston-tz1/
Seems to be a bunch of them out there.... http://www.machinerytrader.com/list/partssearch.aspx?partnum=5J2526&pst=starts
Here is the 8S 44K for comparison.
Just make sure they don't ship you a d8k rod again.You can by the trunnion ball that welds onto the blade quite cheap if you can't buy a deacent d8h rod
0R-1302 that the dealer shipped is Reman for 8J-8582 Rod. That particular rod is used on the blade lift cylinders for all 8A, 8S, & 8U bulldozers to fit D8K tractors of S/N 76V1-Up & 77V1-Up. 44K or 45K blade on the OP's tractor makes no difference, although that photo certainly looks like a full U-blade (rather than even a semi-U) to me. The blade lift cylinders are all the same. I suspect back when the blade was manufactured someone at Cat stamped the S/N prefix incorrectly. Latest P/N for 5J-2526 is - 5J-2526 ........... back in those days they made something once and made it right.
Yes I just posted the first one I saw that included a price. Looking at that list you posted it looks like there might be one for every Dozer built!
As of this hour, I think that we've zero'd in on the cylinder Rod, my local Cat vendor has shipped me the correct one, The pump, however, is still mounted to the tractor, and I need to make a decision. Should I remove it, and bring it to a Vickers authorized service center? Or should I continue trying to arrive at what it is? I just don't know what would get the pump fixed quickest? My biggest fear is ordering another $2500 part from Cat, only to have it serve as a paperweight. What's my next step? Please excuse me if you guys already told me; I'm just confused. Only thing I know for sure is that I own a Cat D8H, ser#46A29585, has a blade ser #44K, appears to be a big U-blade, and has a monster 4barrel ripper rack. Guess I don't understand arrangement numbers and group numbers. Have we already identified these?
One thing I've learned through this ordeal, is to guard the correct part #'s with my life, in the event that I should need another part
Jason,it's pretty easy to remove and strip that pump to look at it.Even I can do it.Take it off,strip it and post some pics of it.You're worst senerio is the possibility of replacing both cartridges that would cost around £400 for both here in the UK.The labour bill would be nill sue to the simplicity of the job.Be sure to take pics of it as you strip it so you know which way the cartridges work.They are usually marked with an arrow.
It would only get expensive if the shaft,bearing and cartridges were all toast,but,from my experience they can allways be made to work.I'm pretty rough,and I've never totalled one yet
Jason, with so many people chiiping in their (valuable) 2c I'm not surprised you are confused....... Regarding Arrangment Numbers, Group Numbers, Part Numbers, this may help. The Arrangement Number is the top level number. For example in the system the Hydraulic Control on your tractor is titled 3P-1198 Hydraulic Control Arrangement. A breakdown of 3P-1198 on the system shows 9 separate Group Numbers (e.g. Pump Gp, lines Gp, tank Gp, etc, etc). Each Group has a listing of the separate Part Numbers that make up the Group. So the progression top level to bottom level goes Arrangement Number -> Group Number -> Part Number. From the S/N plate on your hydraulic tank (59Pxxxx) we've identified the Hydraulic Control as a model 183B and the Arrangement Number as 3P-1198. This arrangement uses a 7J-0612 Pump Group which has been cancelled and replaced by 9J-5050 or if you want a Classic (cheaper) part 422-8168. The prices I am showing are $2200 and $900 respectively for the 2 Part Numbers. If you plan on replacing the pump complete then either of these two numbers will do the job based on all the information you have given us. Things get murky if you decide to open up your pump yourself (or have someone do it for you) and replace the two cartridges. The problem right now is that neither you nor us have any idea if the pump that is on the tractor right now is a 7J-0612, a 9J-5050, or something else entirely. So giving Part Numbers for the cartridges is no use because as of this moment we don't know exactly what the pump is. As I see it you have 2 options - replace the pump complete or remove the pump and get it to a Vickers agent who will no doubt be able to identify exactly what pump it is and what parts it requires to get it back into running order.
Thank you, thank you, Nige. What a relief! I know what to do now. I'm going to replace the whole unit, and then know exactly what I have!
What happened to diagnosing the problem? If the parts changers are going to take over I'm out of here.
I'm still going to pressure check the system, Old Magnet. Problem is that Cat sent the wrong Rod for the application; I already had removed the entire cylinder assy from the dozer. I can't perform a pressure check; I have to do the other maintenance while I wait for the correct Rod assy.
Here is a pic of the big U-blade assy from the rear . As far as the diagnostics, I thought we that it was either a suction issue, or a worn pump issue; in either case I ordered the hardline seals for the suction line and will replace tomorrow when the rubber parts arrive. But the pump ID was bouncing around until Nige gave conclusion on a positive remedy to get the machine back on the job, making $. I heeded that advice, with confidence that there was certainty in a complete pump that I personally ordered. When this pump gives future problems, I will, with certainty, be able to order correct parts. As far as the existing Vickers pump, that I am yet to remove, it will be sent to a Vickers shop for positive ID and overhaul. This will be a back-up pump. I appreciate all input of folks that know more than I. But I must get the old D8H back into service, and a paltry $900 for a new Cat Classic pump will be cheap insurance
If nothing else I would run the machine to get it warm and then put the tip of a large screw driver on the side of the pump and the handle to one ear. If the pump is bad the buzzing will be very clear. Then after removing pump and marking it as to orientation of the sections open it up and take a look. Hard to miss a worn cam ring on a Vane pump. If you need to know what to look for ask once it's out, maybe post a picture. With out being there it's hard to know for sure but off the top of my head I'd say if noise gets worse when warm I'd be thinking pump. Suction leaks can be worse with cold oil as it take more suction to pull the cold oil out of the tank.
I can understand OM's frustration but also we have to appreciate where the OP is coming from. He needs his machine back to work. He's been screwed around already by a supplier with an incorrect lift cylinder rod, he doesn't need to go through it all again with the implement pump. He needs a pump that a) fits correctly, and b) is guaranteed to work. I'm thinking that the Part Number of pump derived from his Hydraulic Control Arrangement Number is the only 100% sure way to go if no-one is sure what Part Number of pump is on the machine right now or even if that pump is even in an internal condition that makes it repairable. Also it's worth thinking that the Classic Pump @ $900 complete is probably going to cost less than having the existing pump rebuilt....although if it was economical to do so I would still rebuild the original pump as a spare which is apparently what he is planning. I can see over $900 in Cat parts to replace the two cartridges in the existing pump plus a seal kit, so at that price maybe the new pump is a good deal.
The noise does get worse when warm; I ordered a pump for starters
Wrong priority. Hydraulic system problem should have been properly diagnosed before taking the system apart. Yes, looks like some knuckle dragger miss stamped the blade on the assembly line. Keep that in mind when it comes time to replace cutting edges/parts. Otherwise the hydraulic system doesn't care.
Cat Classic is probably Asian like most aftermarket pumps. Asian cartridges are $150-300 each. If the suction assembly is not air tight you will cavitate the new pump and be at the same spot. The vanes bounce on and off the cam ring.
Hook up to the test port on the outlet of the pump, point in bucket, is it straight oil, aerated or foaming?
Old Magnet, where is the engine oil pan drain plug(s) located? My helper attempted to tell me that none exist. Is this possible?
He dropped the 51" long belly pan and he says there isn't one; I didn't try to question him; I did not look for myself
It's not underneath which is probably where he looked. It's on the RH side of the oil pan (circled).
Should be a valve on the side of the oil pan near the bottom, no? Will have a hex head, it's like a long plug. Or a plug, Nige beat me to it, lol
Do you have to drop or the pan whole, or in part, to access it,?there is a hinge on the rt hand side of the tractor.
Without being able to look at it, if there is a hinged panel on the RH side of the lower engine guard then no guarantees but the drain plug/valve ought to be behind it.
Thanks, Nige
Found it. The drain is incorporated into the lower part of the dipstick casting. 9/16" socket removes it; need not thread all the way out; it is a drain valve
Mike, I'll try your bucket test as soon as I can. Gotta get the cylinder sealed and installed tomorrow.
Jason ,those H series have two different drain plugs.Yours is the later style which is accessed without removing that giant belly plate.Whilst it's off,check the head as they often get worn causing some fitters not to get it tight.A new plug is cheap insurance if it's ragged. The older style was right at the underside of the engine and was a big plug with 3/4 inch drive to move it.
Hey guys, the new pump fixed the problem!!!!! Running strong once again!!!!
New hyd pump made the tractor happy again! Thanks for everyone's interest and helpful commentary
How about some photos of the innards of the old pump..? I'll pretty well guarantee the inside of the cartidges looks like a ploughed field.
And the 2 1/2" steel, 2-piece suction line clamps were changed also (ref pic submitted by Nige). Well, actually, just the inexpensive rubber seals. There was nothing that indicated a suction leak upon disassembly and cleanup, other than an old silver-solder job of the large flange end-2 1/2" tube end that mates to the underside of the hyd pump. The job was completed in less than 5 hours. Sorry, hands were too filthy for pics on disassembly.
I'll get that done, Nige