Hey I was just curious and wondering if anybody has had any seat time on the new H series scrapers. I see on the Cat website that 20 series G models are now part of Cat's non-current line up. There are quite a few differences that I see with these new models, such as a smaller displacement engine in the front, new cab with a completely different layout, plastic fenders, fuel tank, different bowl, lift cylinder arrangement, etc. Just wondering what some operators think of them. For some reason I'm still content running the 627F...
i got in one at the cat dealer, the visibility out of the front was cool, the way everything in the cab was shifted to the right to make room for the long window in the front, visibility on the right side didnt seem very good, i think u are supposed to use the camera for that side though, not being very fond of 27s i still would love to get a load or two with one, not very much help -sorry
Looks like it may take some getting used to with the steering column now mounted off center. I see your partial to the 37's eh?
too rough riding for me, really handy machines in the right applications
I hear ya, the 657's were quite a bit smoother than some of those 27's I have been on, but the job I'm at now is very soft and that 27's are having problems staying on top. Oh well, lots of padding out I guess! I never have operated any of the thirty series scrapers though.
ive run 631, 41, 51, 27, but mostly 37s, about 2 months ago some contractors that work at the mine i work at let me run a 57 e, the first time ive ever run a 57, it was only for a hour but i finaly got to run 1
I ran augered and push-pull 57's for years...I still think a 31 has the best ride of the bunch.
I'm going to have try 'em out one day. I thought the 51's and 57E's rode like a Cadillac compared to the 21's and 27's. I suppose that is just because of the sheer mass though. The 27F I'm currently in is about the roughest riding buggy I've ever been in, sometimes it even makes you double check to see if your cushion is even on, and it is!
The mass works against you...trying to keep a haulroad together when 57's are beating it up is really tough. You have to put some effort into a good running surface, and its tough in a roadbuilding or subdivision environment where the workface and fill zone is constantly moving. By the time the haul road is perfect the haul is usually finished.
That makes perfect sense, the only time I have ran them is during the winter and the frost and frozen ground definitely would have helped out keeping them from punching out. I know it can sometimes be a royal pain just maintaining a haul road with just a couple of the little ones. I can only imagine what it would be like running them in a subdivision with various stakes surrounding you and tight quarters!
I see what 25 and 35 ton haul trucks do to a haulroad and couldn't think of what the road mantianance would need to be for a 57 to move around quickly.
What year is the F you are running buckshot? Ive ran a newer model F right before the G's came out nd they rode ok, but they said the very early series F was misreable, company we worked for replaced the seats in there F's with seats from an E series 27. If you park a 27E and a 27F up against each other you will see that the F sits higher then the E dont know if that has anything to do with it?
The E's are definitely different, they ride pretty nice actually. The F is a 1997 believe. Both the the E's on site and the G's ride quite a bit smoother. I don't know if it is a combination of the air ride site, and where the seat is mounted that make a difference. I've talked with a few Cat mechanics and they say it has to do with where the seat is actually mounted that makes 'em rough riding. This was supposedly fixed later on. The F on a whole actually seems like a bit of a Cat developmental model for the G series. There are quite bit of things that debuted on the F and were refined with the G or even downright removed for the G. For example the stupid air throttle on both the front and back. Why they, (Cat), thought it was smart to put an air throttle on the front engine on the F is beyond me. It is a bear cat to get started and warmed up in sub zero temperatures during the winter. The Cab structure is also the same between the F and the G besides some changes.
Oh, forgot to mention earlier. The F at work does not have the push block and bail on the front. This may make a difference as well. Not that it had with any of the other 27's though!
The front end on these new pulls are kinda ugly!
It would be interesting to see how many still have those 3 TV monitors (optional) working 10 years from now... LOL! http://www.forconstructionpros.com/product/10242355/caterpillar-cat-h-series-wheel-tractor-scrapers video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5Qom0z7vi0 G00gle results.. http://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei....,cf.osb&fp=3469f4ad21ccc902&biw=1295&bih=537
Thanks for the links alan627b. Who knows about the those TV monitors later on, CD players sure didn't have much luck for a working future in scrapers! But after another +30 degree day (about 90 Fahrenheit) in an E series cab all day, all I can say is I hope the A/C in the large glass cab on the H's is up to snuff for the job!
I am used to 215 AC... 2 windows down at 15 mph.. be nice to run something a little nicer for a change.. like the brand new G I got to run in Arizona years ago. But right now.. I'd just like to be running something... period. Recovering economy my @ss... sure isn't recovering very welll around here! Oh well... I hope Cat doesn't give up their day job to start making rock videos.. they need better music. Somebody re-edit it and put "Fuel" by Metallica on the soundtrack.. then they might have something! Alan
Hahaha. 215 A/C, nice I will have to remember that. I second the "Fuel" by Metallica, now that is a buggy song! I hear you, it can be a struggle to sometimes find work. Luckily for me, I am usually guaranteed at least for the summer. The winter on the other hand, that can sometimes be a different story. Work is still tough to come by in Nebraska then? Do any of the county's use scraper's for road rebuilding?
The TV monitors do seem a bit gimmicky, but they don't come as standard equipment on the machines. Just one of the many frills that you can select (select I.E. get bent over) on. CD players never really had a chance on a machine with so much vibration and new cd players being what they were. The reason for that large glass pane is so more of the bail is visible when push/pulling, which makes for nice shiney straight bumpers on your nice shiney new machine, or that is the idea anyway
You live in Omaha Alan? I am a full time student in Lincoln, picked up a job for the company with all the red pickups working (running 627g) on the westbound lane on I80 inbetween Lincoln and Omaha. There were 2 G's parked for the whole summer, they called them "spares" - truth is I dont think they could find anyone to run them!
It is nice to see Cat putting in the extra for the operator, minus the cushion hitch it seems that very little has changed since the 600 series debuted nearly 50 years ago! :lmao I'm sure I would get used to changes and probably like 'em as well. Heck that M series grader I'm running now did not take to long for me to get the hang of things with the controls. Fairly intuitive.
Our company has 4 of the 627H models and have over 1000 hours on each. They should have a lot more hours by now as we have had them for a whole year but the breakdowns have plagued these machines something horrible. When they work the work great. That being said, every one we have had has been sent back to CAT for major failures and revisions. We did buy the ones that were 1,2, and 4 that came of the production line worldwide so I'm sure the newer ones have the changes installed that ours have had done. Alot of transmission and differential problems and the EGR regen system has failed many times on all four. Also the A/C system has difficulties keeping up on hot days. The G models worked better in that way. When running though they will outperform the G models hands down. They haul more dirt, have more power, ride nicer, and visibility is mountains better. The balance seems much better on the H models though. The draft arms attach lower on the can and i think that aids in this. They will hold between a 3:1 and a 2.5:1 alot better than the G models will. I can talk more about these than this and if anybody wants to know just ask. I have had at least one of these on my jobs since October of last year every day I've worked and needed scrapers on the job. Even if it was the one sitting broke down for three weeks cuz it won't run longer than 4 loads before throwing codes and derating the engine powe:Banghead:Banghead. And every time the CAT mechanics say it's fixed. We just shipped that one back to them last week. I really liked the black cab G models. They are great machines as we have some of the last ones of those they produced also. dont know if this helps or answers any of your questions but that is my experience with them. Thanks alot! Dane
Good to see an honest account of the machines. I know some of the people behind the H series and they are just like you and me in that we put our pants on the same and they have there heart and soul in these things and will do what they can when constructive criticism comes in. You don,t see hardly any other manufacturer in scrapers these days except maybe for those pretend things dragged around by a farm tractor and to have Cat pour this money in is a godsend for scrapers and the smart contractors who know what they can do and how to run them.
Dane, I've been to Miles City several times as my grandmother has a place close to Jordan. There doesn't seem to be that much work around there to have such a fleet except for the Bakken shale which would be about 150 miles north-northeast of you, or the bentonite mines southeast of you about the same distance. Just wonderin'
Thanks for the info there dan. Was a bit afraid a few of those problems would show up with those new models, specifically the regen system issues. The sub par air conditioner is also a little disconcerting. We bought a brand new farm tractor a couple years ago that has that same air conditioner issue. I think it is a product of big glass cabs, or a way for mfgs to sell a "delux ac unit package" some day:Banghead. All new machines have their growing pains. Enjoy that new cab smell and being Caterpillar lab rats. Also, pictures man, pictures!
Yair . . . Absolutely disagree with this. Why does Cat have to pour money in to developing a new line of tarted up scrapers? They have been building the bloody things for long enough now that incremental changes should not lead to major reliability issues. I doubt end users ask for better mouse traps . . . the stiff hitch 27 I ran digging swamp in '72 was still making a quid for it's third owner last time I checked and would have moved more dirt in it's life time than these new generation machines will ever manage. Some of the folks at Cat may know how to put their pants on but when it comes to logical effective design work (according to some pissed off Cat. owners around here) they seem to have lost the plot. Cheers.
To (theoretically) lower the cost/yard of moving material, meet environmental regulations, make the machine safe and comfortable to maintain AND operate, just to name a few. Such is the price of new technology. Everything new has growing pains. It isnt like cat has made ten thousand of them and they all have transmissions ****ting the bed on a daily basis. Valid point, but just because something was good in the past doesn't mean it is impossible to improve on. I've seen B model scrapers that look and function a hell of a lot better than G models, and G models that downright run circles (as they should) around B models, its all about how the machine was taken care of. I'm sure these H models will be fine, once the bugs are ironed out. Everyone says this any time something new comes out. For all intents and purposes, the machine is still in develping stages. Anyone who purchases a machine like this, not only fresh off the line but fresh off of the drawing board, would be dillusional to not expect loads of issues to begin with. All you have to do is look at the M series graders and one can ballpark how much trouble you will be having. This isn't 1970 anymore. The EPA, safety regulators, all kinds of boundaries have to be toed with everything, but especially construction equipment. :IMO
Horse hockey. They can do it on their dime, not mine. They know good and well what testing is and how to do it. They've been doing it for ages. Now they can do it virtually in simulators and then in the real world. Instead, they choose to let the customers test the machines for them and provide feedback, paid for by customers in lost productivity due to warranty claims. You ever been paid while your machine is down for warranty work? How many machines has Cat built with effective AC? Millions I would say. But now the customer gets to pay close to three quarters of a million dollars for something as simple as a substandard AC design, much less a more complicated breakdown like an EGR system or throwing codes for a bad sensor? What in the hell is the customer paying for? Cat's supposed to be the experts when it comes to this, not the dealer or the customer. No, when Cat builds a scraper or anything else like the 627 that Scrub Puller mentioned that will last for decades that's not made out of plastic and electronics will we customers (as the whole reason for Cat's existence) be better off. The EPA, OSHA, MSHA, and pollution controls have all been around since the early '70s. Cat knows it. As I say, they're supposed to be the experts, not us. Don't build some crap that doesn't work and sell it to us and have it fail in the first year of operation. I know some manufacturers that did that and they're not around anymore. If Cat thinks that I don't have an idea that their material and labor cost to build a 627 is under a hundred and fifty thousand dollars, they're crazy. That leaves quite a bit of money for research and development and profit. Maybe their focus groups need to ante up some money for these "improvements" that aren't fully tested before they're unleashed on the paying customer. I'm all for something new that provides a benefit. I just believe it should be tested thoroughly before us guinea pigs have to pay for it, and then pay for it again...
Oh golly shux darnit. Since when is the dealer not supposed to be an on site representation of cat corporate? Mind = blown. Unfortunately, when one buys something so shiney and complicated, no matter what, there are going to be issues. No amount of testing on the drawing board, computer screen, or the bit in the field can actually replace what cat's customers ACTUALLY DO to the machinery. There is no substitute for legitimately putting 2500 hours on a machine, stepping back and seeing what isnt working like it should. Cat can guess all they want, but they will never get it right until companies use the machines like they are going to use them. Working backwards from that point, it saves caterpillar money in testing a broad range of issues, and creates much more effective tool in the field, tailored for the end users specific needs. That WORKS. Well your up - front cost is lower because of cheaper (not always better) materials, the electronics are there because of emissions regulations and the "more production for less $$$" aspect that every company buys a new machine for - IE fuel economy. Not to mention, Maybe it isn't supposed to last for decades. Cat doesn't make any money not selling new equipment, ya know. You're right, it sucks, but really, the engine issues at least have been around for at least 4 years. If someone invests into these new machines with the same regen systems and expects to not have the same regen problems, that is the definition of insanity. Maybe, but you're rolling out a lot of assumptions there. I would be curious to know how much goes into R&D and testing. And when you say thoroughly...what are you asking...2 years...? 10 years...? Like I said, there is no replacement for the end user rolling it off the truck and putting 2000 hours of real life work on the thing. Someone's got to do it, and if you buy the first of a new model, it isn't rocket science, you will be a guinea pig. :beatsme
Yair . . . Jozzie2000 . As an end user I am surprised at your attitude. I bet Cat wish they had customers like you . . . obviously you are smart enough to buy good tried and proven used iron and good luck to you for that. d9gdon posted pretty right in my opinion. The point I make is that on mature technology like scrapers, dozers, excavators and what all the available production improvements are at best very incremental . . . that envelope has been pushed pretty far as it can go. Improvements now should be in reliability and serviceability and durability. Instead we are going backwards with availability of much equipment being compromised by "features" such as electronics and add ons that are of questionable use and durability . . . it beggars belief that there seems to be a design problem with the a/c on the H's. All this stuff is very basic and if Cat. can't get it right first time you have to wonder about the rest. Cheers.
Tier 4 is the biggest driver, there is no getting away from that unfortunately. Another big issue not so well recognised is suppliers of housings, valves and numerous other items have stopped making parts as there has been no demand for them due to the market place wrecking so many machines and having 2nd hand spares available so Cat,s hand has been forced there. Another big factor is for the long term survival they had to change, just like most other lines so that people would be encouraged to drive them, sandbox kids no longer exist so you have to adopt to the ages. This will be the last major revamp you see on Cat scrapers so with all those planets aligning you have the H series, sure it will have tething problems, i have never seen a new Cat line or model that doesn,t.
Yair . . . Gavin84w. Yeah mate I understand that but they can have a Tier 4 engine without a complete redesign. I have no knowlege of these new units but always thought Cat. would be well advised to send an engineer with a measuring tape and a protractor to check out the bowl geometry of a few green lizards . . . I reckon they were the easiest loading scrapers I ever saw Incorporate Terex geometry in (say) the "G" series scrapers with the Teir 4 engines and sell them for less money (as they havn't embarked on a whole new R&D program) and they would probably have some very well recieved, reliable, proven up machines. Cheers.
Yeah, well we are a small company and can't really afford to buy something right off of the factory line anyway. Reliable lightly used equipment is what we -always- buy. Not having a machine that can run for us is kind of a big deal, just like for anyone else. @ Gavin 2nd hand parts huh...can you elaborate what you can on this? Why are the parts not getting cheaper if they are not what I would call "cat quality"? Are they bottlenecking the supply to keep prices high? I understand you probably cant answer many of these questions...elaborate if you can?
So tell me what you're trying to say by this post??
Dane, I'm curious, no more and no less. I was trying to guess what your company's main line of work was around that part of the country.
A few other things I left out.... I must say that the support from CAT on these has been very good. Despite the breakdowns, and mechanics trying to fix them and not having much luck. I have personally visited on my jobsite with the worldwide manager for scrapers and off-highway trucks. Also a few of the National managers come out periodically to talk with me and the company I work for to try and help resolve these issues we are having. They also came out to do updates on the machines when we got the first two after 100 hours on each. We have worked with them and they have listened to our input and together we are working to make the machines better for everybody. We are not the only contractor having the same issues with these machines. Everytime we have sent a machine back they have given us a loaner H model to use with absolutely no cost to us. No mobilization charge either. CAT is footing the total bill for all of our problems. So to put blame on Caterpillar and hold their feet to the fire wouldn't be right because they are trying everything they can to solve our problems. We knew we would have a few issues with them just not this many. When we got these we actually ordered 6 of the black cab G models but they discontinued them in the midst of our order, so we got the first H models. Again I will say that they will outperform and move more material than any G model without a doubt when they run. Having actual engine brakes instead of retarders really make these easy to haul *** with too. If you look really hard you can see so very many differences where they have been redesigned for the better. These are just way too numerous to mention here. And the camera that looks at the stinger is the only one I really use. It makes pushpulling a very easy thing to do!
Ok. My apoligies. Please forgive my abruptness. Too many people on here are always trying to put others down. My location says Miles City because that's where my address is. I actually live in Williston,ND. The company I work for is based out of Williston and we are a full services heavy civil contractor. We do all kinds of earth construction, pipelines, landfills. Anything you can do with equipment. We do all our own crushing and screening as we have many portable crushing plants and operate a number of pits in our area. We have a full fleet of trucks, bellys, sides, vac-trucks, tankers, water trucks, roll backs, low boys. I am very fortunate to be involved with a company that has very nice equipment such as ours. We have I think around 18-20 scrapers right now. We just got rid of i think 6 or 7 this spring because they were getting high hours and were older models G and F models. Not trying to boast just saying so you can get and idea. I would post some pictures but I must be to retarded to figure out how to resize them to upload them. sorry! Thanks Dane
Ok I figured it out. And if you are wondering I did have to stop to take these pictures but its pretty easy to stack moist clay like this every load in these scrapers.
I would love to see the pictures!!! Do you have them on another webiste like FB???
HMMM they look like they need side boards??? I know E's and F's that dirt would just of rolled out the side. How easy are they to load copared to an F??? I would absoultely LOVE to run one but around here 27's are few and far between
Another ? The GPS does it read off of the bowl or directly under it??? The 27 i ran had the same GPS but if had to be mounted on the bowl to get the most accuarte reading
Funny you say that. We have since this photo installed some sideboards on two of the four. Oh yeah. They seem to load very easy compared to the F models and easier than the G models. The bowl is wider too and holds two more yards than the G models. It has some fancy way of working from there by measuring some distances or something. I don't really know exactly. I don't use the GPS on most of the work I do because we don't get much for engineered plans usually that have a file for the GPS. We have laser poles installed on all our machines though which get used daily. I know the bowl cylinders have measuring devices installed in them. From the factory CAT gauges and display module inside the cab it will tell you how far they are retracted or extended. Kinda cool.
Breaks my heart to see a brand new machine get modified like that. But, production is production =). Methinks it measures the cut/fill depth straight from the back tires, and with what you said about the cylinders, technically you could figure your elevation. Just guessing. If you want to see this thread explode, post a video. Thanks for the pictures Dane. Edit: OH MY did anyone catch the viser that sticks out on the back of the cab? Is that where the AC fans are? Sure would be nice when you are loading with your back to the sun at the end of the day!
why does it break your hurt to see sideboards on them
I've got a good video. Just need to figure out how to upload it
Cant really beat that untarnished right out of the factory look,
I have some other words. I'll type slower for you. They have to be, they're a captive audience. They're not the experts; they go to training at Cat, not the other way around. That supposedly makes Cat the expert. If Cat builds and sells something crappy and the dealer does not support it, how long do you think that dealer will be around? Have you ever seen a Cat dealer that sells Komatsu equipment also? For what do you think the Caterpillar Proving Grounds in Arizona are used? I'll tell you. They are there to put prototype and pre production machines through thorough (real world) testing of those machines for many, many hours of typical and even extreme production to see what is and isn't working right so the customer doesn't have to do it on his dime. I know this is something new to you from your comments. Why do you think that Cat places experimental and/or pre production machines with large companies that put a lot of hours on them in a short period of time? They want to avoid breakdowns and issues in production machines. Those first few that roll off the assembly line are not by any means the first few to ever have been produced or tested. That's the whole point of testing, i.e. R&D. If it's not right, don't send it out. That is and has been my point. You're right about that. That was my gripe. It saves Cat money but costs the customer. One day when you start paying the bills and chasing the jobs, you'll learn about the Used Equipment, Parts, and Service side of Cat; then I will ask you if they make any money by something other than new equipment sales. If their equipment wasn't built to last for decades, then why have the Cat Certified Rebuild program where Cat issues a new serial number for the machine? There has been a major push in this economy to steer customers toward this program by my dealer. Maybe with the AMC Pacer, but if Cat wants to compete with the players in today's global economy they know better. I know that from your experience that you think the Radius of Brilliance doesn't extend very far from your pen. You will find otherwise.
No problem. I am being nosy cause I haven't heard any news on the well location building side of the work being done there. I've done some locations here as we're close to the Barnett Shale play that was really hot a couple of years ago. I'm glad to hear that your company is going hard and heavy so close to the country I'm familiar with.
Aw come on man..it was a texas joke..please tell me you aren't going to be all internet mad.. Something got lost in translation here, not even sure what you are talking about anymore, and caring even less. You're going to be internet mad, aren't you... I'm sorry, but you're just a tad unreasonable. You seriously can't see the flaw in your logic? You are talking about how it SHOULD be, I'm talking about how it IS. Heck yeah I would love the machines that roll off the floor to be 10 year don't even have to turn a wrench on them units. You're chewing my ass because I'm telling you how it works. Don't be mad at me, be mad at Cat. Not to mention, and maybe you aren't currently working with them, but Holt down in Texas is one of the premiere dealers in the world. It doesn't get much better if you don't think they are meeting the standards for what what you have qualified as an "expert". Definitely internet mad. I understand that. But the machine is never going to be perfect. They keep making changes. You must know how the SN series works, as they make new improvements the serial number prefix changes, well, this is the first ****** SN, they'll get it working and continue to improve the product. If you honestly think they don't immediately have a replacement machine sitting on the lowboy waiting to go out to these guys that bought these new machines, then I'm going to just straight up ask you why you are in this thread, as you've never been around a brand new piece of equipment in your life. Having my doubts about that, however, they do the best they can with the situation they are given. Nobody asked these guys to go out and buy the machine. There's loads of tried and true options with a lot less risk. I had a huge response typed up for this, but I'm not really here to get into internet arguments with people. I just joined to be part of an online community that shares a few pictures and has a few discussions about what they do at work. I'm sorry I made you internet angry. Not that it is any of your business, but I took a job when I was in college working for the local dealer, for the very reason of learning how the corporate system works, along with working directly with caterpillar customers in parts and service, so I would appreciate if you at least gave me the benefit of the doubt. Not to mention I am part of a small family business, and we haven't been around as long as we have by not knowing how the equipment market works. I think its pretty sad that you can insult someone like that, whom you know nothing about. Maybe the dealers are pushing the rebuild programs because they don't have a lot of faith in their new products. It's not really a secret they are more reliable. But no, people would rather buy a new machine and then not take responsibility for the troubleshooting that goes along with it. Sorry if that guy is you, and I am touching a nerve, which seems to be the problem. Ahh, another priceless gem. Like I said...you don't really know anything about me, so I am just going to sit here and enjoy you making yourself look like an angry old man. Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? :lmao:bouncegri:lmao Spare me .
cos you then overload them and phuck the hitch and wear all sorts of stuff out sooner than you should, Cat designed it that way so a given life can be achieved and all safety tests have been conducted at a rated payload, if you are happy to put them on and accept less life go for it but don,t whine about anything that goes wrong from that point on.
I had the same argument with our Ops people when they first saw the bodies for our new 789 OHT's. First thing they wanted to do was put sideboards on them because "they don't look big enough". Now after a couple of years experience they can see the body is perfectly sized for our material densities. They can get the target payload on the truck easily and in certain cases where the material is a tad denser than normal if they load the body full (rather than loading until the Payload System tells them to stop) they can overload it too. What they can't do is grossly overload it , that's why we specified that size of body surprise, surprise. From all our initial indications it will pay us back big time in vastly improved component lives and lower cost/ton hauled.
This was what i wanted to say, but mentioning anything that doesnt maxamize production around here gets nothing but an arsechewing from.....some people. Figured the safe bet was "it looks perdier".
Always the same conflict between Ops & Maintenance. They want to pile as much as they can on board. We're out to stop 'em ............... because when it breaks (as it undoubtedly will at some point) we're the ones who have to fix it - not them.
opcorn
:beatsme
Thanks a lot for posting those picture Dane! Has the Hydraulic reservoir been moved to above the transmission on the H models? Thought I saw something there on one of those pictures. Bowl looks quite a bit different, and I see the lift cylinders have been moved to the out side as well as opposed to all the other 620 series scrapers with them on the inside. I bet the forward visibility has been a welcome improvement while push pulling! Jozzie2000, that would be great if that visor actually functioned as intended when that sun is at your back! Funny, I suppose that I was used to the older models. I always found the B's, E's, and F's loaded easier than the G. The G I ran had a different style bowl, the opening was deeper and it took a little getting used to with the deeper apron. Then again, they all seem to have their own unique quirks (old and new) which differentiated each one just enough them from an identical model when operating. Especially if the frog had been replaced, and is now at a slightly different angle! Lol. Looking forward to more pictures and some video Dane, hopefully their bugs get ironed out and you can catch at least a pair in action!
Yeah probably does wear it out faster but does the extra load its carrying pay for itself in the end??? I actually think 27's and 37's look kinda silly without sideboards, but thats just me
great pics dane thanx, i totally agree with you guys on the sideboards being bad for machines, i get to watch firsthand the downward spiral of a scraper being overloaded, and the service life being sucked out of a machine, way before its time. all the pushpulling we do it is too easy to overload, usually starts with cracks, they get welded, then its the hitch not working right. i call it the scraper payback, you can overload it so long then between worn out pins hard shifting trany and a hitch that dont work right after ten hrs you feel beet up.
The GPS on the new iron like these 627's and the D8t's (teir IV), use position sensors that are factory installed in the cylinders (from what I've understood), this is also why the D8 GPS went from on the blade to above the cab. The fancy dancy computer then calculates the distances those cylinders have moved in relation to the GPS receiver and it's position. It's all rather complex. Think of it like the GPS system on an excavator, but without any external sensors, it works the same way.... I think
Well, how about this scenario: Assume both machines have equal drivetrain/hydraulic/tires, also similar hour meters. Assume we are buying these on an auction. Machine 1: F model, no sideboards, no cracks in the frame. Machine 2: G model, sideboards, welds on the draft arms and neck Which one would you choose..? I would always choose the F, even if it had 5000 more hours on it, even if i had to drop another 50k for it. I'm not dealing with structural failures. That machine will need to be functional the whole time I own it, and just as functional when I go to sell it. Just my opinion. We are stingy about cosmetics!
Uh huh. I was pretty sure that was your background. Let me get out of your way so you can illuminate us.
Company i worked for bought a pair of 27F's when they first introduced them, and sideboards went on before the machine made one round, when they got rid of those 2 27's they had 25k hrs and never had any cracks in the neck or frame. They had to rebuild the neck in each machine once and replaced all 4 trannys and rebuilt 3 of the 4 motors. But they were top notch when it came to maintaince. "Load it like a rail car and drive it like a NASCAR" LOL With the GPS is just sounds like there is more sensors to go bad, and harder to troubleshoot, trimble was a user friendly system. But this may be a new system idk, i heard rumors trimble was coming out with a new system to compete with topcon
And personally i would never buy a G over an F! I think the F series was the best, i hate the joystick in the G Give me the 3 levers any day
Thanks for the ignore feature, HEF.
I will wade into the sideboard issue a bit.:stirthepot I say it depends on the material you are hauling whether they hurt the machine. In material like the scrapers in post 39, sideboards would only hold a small amount more material. That clay stacks nearly straight up, so maybe a yard or two more at most. If the design is close enough to its limit that 5% more material is the difference between a long life and an early failure, then there is more wrong with them than you would think. On the other hand, in heavy material, you may get enough extra weight to give it a 15% or more overload, which is enough to take a toll over time, as talked about above. According to the Cat website, the 627H has a 57,600# rated capacity. In natural clay, per the Cat performance book table on material weights, you are looking at 2,800# per loose cy. 24 loose cy = 67,200#, so it is already more than 15% overloaded, and that is rated capacity, with a 2:1 angle on the load. In the pictures referenced, it is more like a 1:1 load, so it may be 20% overloaded without sideboards. At the other end of things, working something like topsoil, with a book weight of 1600# per loose yard, a rated load would only weigh 38,400, so you could not put tall enough sideboards on to load it to the rated capacity, much less overload it. The more I read the more it seems that 90% of the material types listed in the performance handbook will overload the scraper when loaded only to the rated 24 loose yards. If this is true, it seems to me the rating may be out of line with the machine capacity. As far as using sideboards goes, from a contractors viewpoint, if they can haul enough added yards to overcome the added costs incurred during the time they own the machine, they will continue to do it. Those who run machines for a few years then sell them gain from it, at the expense of the later owners of the machines. Those who plan on running them for many years are better off not doing it. Just my opinion, for what its worth.
Bingo. Probably because cat knows that the end users will try to put more in than "what it says in the book", even if it does actually get read. Set the bar lower, so when the machine actually IS overloaded, the tonage will actually be right where it needs to be. Caterpillar counter-psychology. I like the way this guy thinks. Numbers, logic, winner.
Don't worry, 99% of Cats R&D has it right before it hits the field. For example the old 245 front shovel they put out as seed machines didn't work. To much hyd force and not enough weight. Took the shovel off and went back to Ill. and a stick and boom was put on and used as a hoe. After more R&D they came back with it and history says the rest.I for one would not be afraid of early s/n. I also believe in side boards. There is no structural problems on ours, E's, F's, & G's. Maybe some other areas have a problem though.
i know every job is different, i load according to the haul, long haul i pack it up to the trash rack, in the right conditions. just spend a little more time on my road, set it up so i can dump downhill so not to stress the hydros or crack my crowd, definitely dont digdump with a large load. where i work its all year every year, its more important to get the most out of the hours in between rebuilds, we work in some of the most demanding conditions for a scraper, always crawling out of a hole with a load on, summer up to 109, winters we shut down at 10 below. i am now a firm believer in the load rating cat puts on the side of the scrapers, the 37g i run is rated at 81500 or close in there. shes got 27000 hrs on the frame we bought it brand new in 06. idk if its overloading or not but ive attached my badge of dishonor i took it today, i knew this thread was goin here
i added these pics, we got another pit done today, sideboards or not the bentonite in that pile is the best scraper material there ever was, i can pack that stuff up past the top of the trash rack level across the top, its got a little moisture in it so you dont hav to close your lip all the way, when im done loading i only close my lip to where its level with the trash rack, huge loads, but the stuff doesnt weigh that much so you dont even have to feel guilty about too much weight. that whole pile is for our kitty litter customers, so if you got cats dont worry im on the job. one of the pics is the hole it came from
There not meant to win any beauty contest, how they look is irelevant. The other big killer of overlaoding is TKPH on tyres, maybe, just maybe you wont see any structural issues but exceed TKPH limits and you will find something out soon enough.
What i meant was the suppliers of numerous things such as valves, housings, castings etc that Cat have used for years on say D,E,F & G series machines have had reduced demand as owners resort to buying 2nd hand parts from wrecking yards to keep there machines going so basically time has passed them by and they will no longer manufacture what they used to so a new source of supply must be found and that often means a wholesale change. I can,t imagine what the process is like to first find a supplier and then build stuff to Cat specs and with the market place demanding what is needed stuff gets in the paddock a lot sooner than it used to and not as tested as it once was.
With the H series they use Cat Garde Control, With CGC the angle sensor plus the known kinematics of the machine allow the use of the angle sensor, the kinematics and the Grade Control receiver understand where the cutting edge is after a measure up. If you use the Trimble Accugrade you have to have the receiver up by the cutting edge because they do not have the angle sensor nor do they know the kinematics of the machine. The number one plus for CGC over Accugrade is CGC is automatic and Accugrade is manual. The number one reason for this technology on a mass earthmover is for over cut protection. With CGC the machine will automatically prevent the cutting edge cutting below the design plan. The only way it can mess a job site with CGC is if the operator turns it off or the design in the file is wrong
Yair . . . Gavin84w . Thanks for your comments. It's good to get an insiders view as to how the system works. It always amazes me that Cat. can still source some parts for a nieghbours fifty year old D4. 637slayer . Good photo's but I don't quite understand your operation. The bentonite is won and stockpiled with the scrapers and what then? Is it hauled away in trucks? Cheers.
What is your experience ,is it mechanic or operator,I always like your posts,But you seem to know everthing re earthmoving
Our side boards are mainly for dry-loose dirt. This material makes it very cost-effective then. When in heavy-dense material we don't load them that heavy for the simple reason of production. It takes to long to put that xtra cy in the bowl. The applications very on the job, some lite material and some dense. This is how we justify the boards.
Hey Slayer when did you guys start stockpiling the clay with scrapers? Thought you just stripped the overburden and loaders and trucks did the rest down to rock?
Yair . . . terexkerry. Not sure who that post was directed to. I like Gavin84w's posts because I think he is Cat fitter/technician working in the game and always seems to talk a lot of sense. Cheers.
we always pile it with scrapers, then we dry it with scrapers then the truckers haul it to the plant, they ship it out on trucks and rail, bags and bulk.
And it becomes the bane of any guy like me following drillers that used too much on their well. The joys of remediation work, nothing like a hand full of hydrated bentonite to start your day out right.
that would be our green bentonite, expensive drill mud. sounds like you know first hand how slick and messy that stuff gets when its wet
They've really changed the methods since I was around it. Use to just load it out with loaders and truck and haul to plant. The use dozers on stockpile to help dry it. Where are your plant sites at now? Everything arund Bell?
Thanks for the compliments gents but i am a long way from knowing everything about earthmoving but i try and make as much sense as possible. Have worked for all 3 Cat dealers in NSW and also medium sized civil contractors and national mining contractors since 1985. I think the best thing although it didn,t seem it sometimes was 7 years out of a dealership gaining a "customers perspective" balances things up from a yellow world.
Hey everybody, new guy here. As someone who has put over a one thousand hours on one of these "new scrapers" I have to say I am disappointed in it. I work in a lot of hilly and sometimes soft material and this machine don't like it. On hard flat ground it will move dirt like no other, don't get me wrong. I have also spent several thousand hours in a G series and would take the G over the H any day. I have come to know the cat mechanic on a first name basis because he is constantly working on, electrical issues mainly. As far as the ride goes it sucks. i dont need a computer telling me where i need my seat set at. I also work with a guy that has ran scrapers for 10+ years and he feels the same way I do. Overall I'm a fan of cat equipment but this time I think they " over engineered" it. This is just my personal opinion. Thanks for letting me vent. If there are any questions feel free to ask, just curios what others think of the machine. I find scrapers cool ad hell, that's not saying I enjoy running them, they are under appreciated in my opinion.