I'm a long time Cat owner with 10 machines. I have recently had 2 Cat HEUI pump failures, and was wondering how widespread this problem is. Cat 324D failed at 4000hrs, and D6R series 3 at 4800 and again at 6800hrs, forcing pump and injector replacement. According to the dealer, Cat have been attempting to fix the problem by upgrading the bearings in the pump, but the upgraded pump on D6 only lasted 2000hrs, so they still don't have it right? Apparently, the bearing starts failing, shedding metal into the oil and then into the injectors. They talk about the need for the highest grade engine oil, and engine warm up procedure, but it would appear these pumps are causing widespread issues. Has anyone else got similar history? If so, why don't Cat own the problem and help their customerss out, till they can sort it. In my case, if it's out of warranty, I pay the bill. Gotta admit, I expected better of Cat than that.
we never had one fail before, ran good oil and serviced/sampled every 250hrs.. i might be old school but i'm not keen on 500hr oil change invervals at the end of the day oil and a filter are cheap IMO
On the 3400-series of engines (going back to around the mid-90's time frame) the HEUI pump was a total pain. These days they are a bit different. Of our equipment which was mostly new in the 2008/9 time frame we have had one HEUI pump failure early doors on a 336D, covered under warranty IIRC, but that's been it to date. I don't give a flying ***k what the manuals (or the "500-hour oil change" sales pitch) say, on a HEUI engine I'm going to change the oil & filter every 250 hours - or less if SOS tells me to. We have to be very careful where I am now because our diesel fuel is very high in sulphur and affects oil condition greatly. Still not a fan though.....
We have serviced all machines at 250hrs, with approved oil, and sampled at 500hrs without any issues. 500hr servicing was an option for us, but like you guys, I figure oil is cheap... We have a 336d, with the same C9 as in the D6R, no problems yet. Fingers crossed.
the new pump which failed, was it new-new or reman-new? We had afew issues with reman components over the years at the time we went back to rebuilding them ourselves
Good point Only "a few" ............???? We've had loads. I think Cat have slowly come to the realization that there are certain things that just don't Reman very well.
I'm surprised your having such issues and your doing 250hr services most of the issues I know of are from guys stretching out the servicing. Maybe just bad luck. HEUI pumps are idiotic on diesels.
Pump and injectors are reman. Parts alone were almost US$12,000. No way could I have afforded new!
1000% correct, 500HR oil change is not for the everyday operator, to do it successfully takes a fleet of people in the background looking at all manner of things and devising strategy to be in front of any issue that crops up.
I was being nice, pretty much half of all reman units failed pretty quickly, worst one (which was one picked up by chance) was a D9L oil pump, we did a bearing roll, oil pump, pump/injectors & turbo while we resealed the sump, anywho the engine started breathing pretty bad with the new found puff and after around 1000hrs we ended up putting a set of liners in, found the oil pump had broken the case bolts from being over tightened during assembly, we also had a reman rotary coupling fail on an old 235C locking up causing the steel slew piping to be turned into a bowl of spagetti dumping "19L" (otherwise known as the Hyd oil capacity) on the ground
Unless things have changed recently your "Reman" injectors are probably new ones. Of course with the number of irrepairable units that go back as cores the Reman system always contains a % of new parts just to keep the numbers up. But IIRC Cat was having so much trouble reman-ing HEUI injectors to an acceptable price & quality that they gave up an just supplied new injectors in an 0R box.
If you can't afford NEW there is no way in the world you can afford REMAN. If you get 3000 hours out of REMAN HEUI Fuel Components then you are the LUCKY one. As Nigel said 30 to 50% of REMAN is NEW.....pull the squirters out of the paper and look at the Solenoids:- if they are Honey colored they are true REMAN but if they are white they are NEW. On the 500 hour drops:- think of the scenario of Soot loaded oil in there twice as long and the tolerances of a variable displacement piston pump and Fuel injectors. As HEUI get longer in the tooth pop the tapper cover and watch the squirters when you crank- the leakage from the tell tale holes is amazing. The confirmation of that is watching it start with ET and what the IAPCV is doing to stroke the pump up to Desired Actuation Pressure. imagine running a Hydraulic system on Dirty Engine oil AND THEN LEAVING IT IN THERE TWICE AS LONG..........??
That IMHO is the basic flaw of the HEUI system. All the Rules of Hydraulics are based around "keeping the oil clean", then in a HEUI you run the pump & injector hydraulics on dirty engine oil. *** ....??? I'd suggest that you pay your dealer a visit and ask them to put in a Goodwill/Policy Claim on your behalf for the failed pumps & injectors which I assume occured outside normal machine warranty otherwise you wouldn't be posting here. Tell them you believe you have not "received fair value for the money you have paid" in respect of both machines for the OEM HEUI pumps & injectors, plus the replacements fitted to the D6R @ 4800 hours that failed again @ 6800. Be prepared to back up your story with your machine maintenance records showing timely oil & filter changes, the manufacturer's technical data sheet of the engine oil you use, plus your oil analysis records right back to Day 1 for both machines. Also be prepared to show the dealer that any time there were reports from SOS that where either in the "Monitor Compartment" or "Action Required" categories for either engine then something was actually done about it and not just file the oil analysis report in the machine history file. Wouldn't hurt to have details of the coolant analysis for both machines plus the downloads from the machine electronic controls (engine, transmission, implements) using ET to show the dealer that in general the machines have been operated within acceptable parameters. As one of my old bosses once told me - "If you have a $100 claim you need a $100 story. If you have a $100,000 dollar claim you need a $100,000 story".
Good advice guys, thanks. A bit of background on this machine: Imported from the States by another brand dealer at 6k hrs, inspected by Cat workshop on my behalf. Advised that all was well apart from an intermittant misfire at start up on No.1 cylinder, and that the HEUI pump had been replaced at 4800 hrs according to Cat records. All injectors replaced by Cat, paid for by other brand dealer, problem solved, we take deliveryand put to work. HEUI fails at 6800 hrs. Talked with Cat, "you didn't buy the machine from us", etc etc. They have reduced the price of parts by approx. 30%. I suppose that's something. We are now upgrading our oil to the highest standard available here. No more reman HEUIs for us!
That takes care of the D6R, as usual things are never as clear-cut as they appear when someone first posts asking for help. Not trying to be a smart-arse but in order to get informed comment you need to give the whole story up front. So what's the story about the 324D .....??
324D purchased new from dealer, like most of my machines. 250 hr servicing and sampling, with good oil. No bad samples. HEUI failed at 4000hrs, taking injectors with it. Replaced under warranty. With respect Nige, what difference should the machine history (btw it had good Cat history) make to the point of my post, which is the reliability of the Cat HEUI system? Some price relief was only offered after some arm restling across the table with my area manager.
I can't speak for Nigel but in my opinion the Machine/Engine/Application relationship is critical when giving advice or sharing an opinion. The Reason:- Power Ratings, updates, Fuel Burn, load Factors, work environment, generation of fuel system, gear box or Pump drive fitted, speed histogram, generation of software, emissions Tier, Vibration, altitude, climate, application......all effect the outcome of formulating an accurate opinion. A 1st generation 3412E with "Primed" squirters in a 7KK 24H is quiet a different BEAST to a 3126E with an Allison Auto in a KW T300.......and they are both HEUI. As far as reliability goes:- They get to a FIX in most cases eventually.... The "Non-Primed" HEUI squirters that we got in the end that went into 3412E in some 773D lived to 22000 Hours on 250 hour drops and CAT DEO. It was the multiple sets before that that I lost my Faith in the system.....
Sorry, I was getting sidetracked with your particular issues on your 324D & D6R and completely missing the point of your OP. My apologies. I hope that those of us who've posted here have given you some help in how to tackle your dealer if problems like this arise - back to my "$100,000 story" post earlier. I remember well the non-prime versus prime injector issue, and at the time I was working on machines at 10,000ft+ altitude in the Andes. It caused us no end of grief .........
Thanks for your imput guys. Moving forward, Cat dealer has advised us to use the highest grade oil available, and suggests 10w30 CJ4. Ironically available only North America (not here) as a Cat product, but can get as Total 9400 10w30 CJ4, from my local distributor. Had previously been using 15W40. This oil is 40% more expensive than 15w40, but if that's what it takes... We have no temperature extremes here. (-4c to +35c). Any thoughts gents?
I would recommend CAT DEO IN 15w40 (providing your Machine and climate fall into the recommendations in the OMM). Your climate does not seem that severe. This is a good enough oil for $8 000 000 CAT 797F so I have every confidence in it. If you run the OEM oil and filters and SOS this is one less "road block" you will encounter if you do need a warranty claim (God forbid). If you would like an opinion on a SOS history by all means flick it to myself, Nige and I am sure we would both love to offer you an opinion/recommendation .... Rod
I had a HEUI pump fail on my 2003 MT745 Cat Challenger at 400hrs, the cause was put down to working on very steep ground. Cat replaced it under warranty and we just ran the engine 5 litres over full after that and have had no more problems so far.
I'm the same as Rod. I think I would go with 15W/40 in your particular climate, although to be honest it's a toss-up. I assume that your machines don't work 24/7 - right..? So they'll have a cold start every morning, and that more than anything is what the "ambient emperature range" of the O&M manual is referring to, that first cold crank in the mornings. For your 324D (don't have the prefix so I just picked one at random) a 10W/30 oil is good for cold starts between -18C and +40C. A 15W/40 gives you coverage between -9.5 and +50. Based on those numbers and what you said above about your particular temperature range either oil will do you, although it would appear the 10W/30 does cover a slightly wider range in the lower end of the scale that might help in your application. For the D6R the comparative figures are -18C & +40C for 10W/30 and -15C & +50C for 15W/40. Hardly any difference at all, both would be equally good. Strange - the O&M Manual only recommends a CG-4. *** - that's 1990's lubrication technology. One thing though, if you have the advice recommending the 10W/30 CJ-4 oil from your Cat dealer in writing and you experience another failure while using said oil then you have all the ammunition you need to nail his sorry *** to the wall. As I said before, keeping good records is a must in order to have the evidence to present to backup a Goodwill claim in cases like these. As Rod says, if you want anything looked over regarding your SOS history then please ask. Just as another random thought. Do you know what the sulphur level is in your diesel fuel ..?
Thanks guys. Oil recomendation by the dealer has been documented. Warm up proceedure was also mentioned, and while we have always warmed machines before work, operators are being reminded of it's importance. I have had an issue with the cooling system on the 324D, but will start a new thread. I would value your imput.
Nige, Not sure about sulphur levels in our diesel. will check and report back.
Nige, sulphur levels appear to be 50PPM. Other info as below. Thanks http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_int...9/50ppmSulphurDieselCommercialMarineUsers.pdf
I find it odd the dealer is advising on a produvt they don,t even sell so what experience are they basing thier recomendation on? Just a bit odd to me -4 to +35 is the same temp range we see here in NSW and 15W40 has sufficed in thousands of engines here with no issues. SOS, quality oil and oil changes on time are the key. Gotta get the right oil in the right hole at the right time.
Gav, I would suspect it's the Caterpillar factory (or most likely the "experts" on DSN) not the dealer advising the oil that should be used. We had that years ago in Latin America when the factory was advising the use of CI-4 engine oil that was only available in the US and the best we could get locally from any of our suppliers was a CH-4. 50 ppm sulphur is whats known in the trade as Ultra-Low Sulphur (ULS) diesel. That will not present the problems I was thinking about when I asked the question. In my case I have to cope with up to 2000 ppm of sulphur and it causes the production of high levels of soot in the engine oil analysis. Certain engines (not HEUIs I hasten to add) that I have on my property do not tolerate this excessive soot well at all and on those engines we change oil at between 200 & 250 hours because if we go over that the soot levels spike drastically, and so does the iron in the SOS. Do your oil analysis reports happen contain the numbers for the following - I've included the abbreviations as they appear on the report. Oxidation (OXI) Nitration (NIT) Sulphation (SUL) Soot (ST) TBN & TAN ....? If they are not there or some are missing you are only getting the "SOS Light" analysis. It might pay to ask the dealer for the full-fat version, just to be on the safe side. And make sure that they front up the difference in cost for producing that analysis, not you.
An Update...another HEUI pump failure My Cat 324DL has suffered another HEUI pump failure. Looking back in my post, I said that it first failed at 4000 hrs. I was mistaken, it failed at 6300 hrs (just out of warranty) and I recieved some support from my dealer, in the way of parts price reduction. Still a damn expensive repair, as all injectors needed replacement. Well, 1800 hrs later it has failed again, taking the injectors with it. Pump was a reman, and when I ask the dealer if they are as good as a new pump, the dealer assures me they are. He says he has checked with Cat tech guys on this, and there is no reason a reman should be any less reliable than a new pump. I have my doubts. The pattern of failures we are experiencing, is very different to everything the dealer is telling me. Dealer assures me this is not a common problem, but I have unearthed others (including a reman at only 1100 hrs). But he says it appears to be more common in the logging sector than earthworks/construction. Our machines are always 250hr serviced and oil sampled. This machine works hard, shovelling, sorting and loading, but has turned out to be a real lemmon. (see my posts in the excavator section titled 'Cat cooling hub failure') Having suffered the same HEUI issue with our D6R, we are worried that the rest of our fleet will fail as they reach similar hours. This problem has become so bad we are now considering trading out of our Cat machines as soon as they approch end of warranty. Either that or replace the HEUI at regular 1000hr service intervals. This would be a much cheaper option than letting them run till they fail. At least we would save the injectors.
log frog, in the U.K. HEUI motors are known to be dogs, causing plenty of agro for the owners, the oil change times are often way off mark with motors getting a fresh drink of oil after going well past a 1'000 hrs of hard flog, the oil sample thing is usualy only done on new Iron with an amount of factory Warranty, so these engines have a crap name for being a money pit, I stay well clear of them due to the stomach churning bills that soon collect around them, plus the fear of getting dragged into a bad situation having to live with 1 of the knackers that struggle to run for only a few 100 hours before the next calve down happens, best bet is to box up that 324 into a sale ready bit of steel, with a view to swapping it in for anything that will do a days work, a Doosan will run circles around it without the fancy bills, all that talk about oil changing and oil samples is bull crap, the engines are rubbish with stupid costly parts, this is just my thoughts, but its is a fair discription on a Lemon set-up. p.s. just noticed you called the engine a Lemon, I wish I had met you before you bought the Dog, I would have told you what you now know, their crap!
Green is looking good?
Out of all our equipment, there's never been one that failed, and our D6R has 12,000 hours on it. Oil changes at 250hrs, along with the primary air filter and all fuel fiters/water separators
D&G, I am taking it that the 6r is series 2or3? I must compliment you on doing the service side on the button, I dont get this sort of work, that is service jobs, near all of my work is to do with machinery in the calved down situation (Knackered), the best D6R or the tractor that is thought the best to own and run is the banger with the 3306 motor, these tractors are fairly low cost to run and hold a good price on the U.K. market, the main chassis might not be as good but lots of the later frame improvements can be fitted to them, plus plenty of owners know of loads of simple mods' that make them a blinding bit of kit, the main and most common D6R found in the U.K. is the LGP tractor, the oil amplified injector system is not rated very highly and is avoided as much as possible on our little rock, the system is doomed from the very start in muckshifters eyes, with all the polutants and crap the engine pokes out going into an oil pump that would best be fed from its own oil tank??? the oil change periods on most machinery is now on the 500hr mark, the HEUI system needs a re-think???? but I cannot argue the fact that there is people that love it, and through the correct service control you have managed an eye watering amount of clicks on the meter, well done to all involved, but it would not be the common thing with muckshifting U.K. wide that tractor would be on its 2nd motor.
Has anyone had the same problem with the 963C? We just did pump, injectors, and etc. to the tune of $8000+. We have about 8000 hrs also. Would be curious if the 963's are a problem. We also do the 250 oil change.
One can safely extend service change intervals, if one partakes of a good oil sample program, installs excellent quality filters, and also installs additional fine filtration assemblies. Watch the sample trend results closely, use quality oils, and treat the diesel fuel you use like it was gold. Pre-filter every drop you install into your equipment. Sample every load of fuel you receive, and make your distributor take it all back if it comes out loaded with water, dirt, or algae or other unwanted items. Also check for BTU content and Sulphur content. High Sulphur or water contaminated fuel has to be kept a long ways away from any Cat with a HEUI fuel system. Severe damage will quickly result if not. Re-Man fuel systems components have been an issue with Cat for a long time. The cheaper price is attractive, But Cat pays nothing for your equipment downtime and rarely any warranty service labor.
Ive got a cat c9 engine in my mobile crusher plant and i think my heui pump has failed the engine just cut out and wouldnt start, ive changed all fuel filters and ive got no injector leaks but if i crack a pipe off just after the heui fuel just dribbles out but if i prime it manually it fires fuel out. Ive had it running on easy start but ive had a diagnostic lamp flash code 39. Any help would be apreciated
I'm not sure if that engine is similar to a 3176 but I had a Sterling gravel truck with a start / no start issue when ever it felt like it, turned out to be the switch on the cyl head that senses the heui oil pump pressure. It needs to be in the 700 - 800 psi range while cranking before it will fire.
What are you guys paying for replacement HEUI pumps from Cat? Bob
I have a couple of CAT-769D, with HEUI 3408E engines. One of them couldn't start and We were told that the problem was with the HEUI pump: The rail presssure control valve had it's seat damaged. Caterpillar (finanzauto, it's spanish dealer) told us they could not change the valve and the only solution was to change the whole pump (wich was replaced 1600 hours before by a exchange one from caterpillar). A exchange pump would cost around 5000€ (6500 US$), a second hand one was around 2600 € (3500 US$). Finally I took the valve to a small local workshop that repairs hydraulic parts, and they made a new seat for the valve by less than 200€ (270 US$)
leg frog hi from oz HEUI pump pull down about 3 a week reman parts are rebuilt with both used and new parts [more used than new]have you checked cam and rockers , c'ser engines eat cams and rocker gear plus head problems ,you could fit a spinner type oil filter to remove carbon and fine metal from lube oil.
Makes me convinced to use the Cat engine oil filter
Biggest trouble is the feed for the HEUI pump does not get filtered oil, just straight fom the sump!.. bit like the old 33 series engines no1 main bearing got the same treatment, have a guess which one sh&t first But your right bext thing to do is keep up with oil changes and use the best filter/s available
Hmm we were thinking of buying a 2006 324 maybe we should steer clear our komatsu PC 210s have been no bother at all just dont hold money as well as a cat
There should be a fuel pump on the rear of the HUEI pump. Put a 100 psi pressure gauge on the tranfer pump and see what your pressure reading is. It should be around 70 psi. If not, change the pump. We also had a screen installed on the HUEI so if the HUEI falls apart, it doesnt cost us 6 injectors. We change our oil at 150-190 hours I still loose a HUEI on our c-9 once a year. We are not able to get new anymore, just remans. The c-9 HUEI's should be used for boat anchors...........
bauer BG 24 boring machine have cat c9 engine.we service it every 250 hours now its hour meter 11235.during this period we replaced 2 HEUI pump. access engineering sri lanka.
Where did you get the screen to put in the pump and where did you install it.I talked to my mechanic and he had a hard time thinking just a screen would work,because of usually it being fine metal and would pass through the screen and still getting to the injectors. On the post above about about putting a spin on filter in line to catch metal sounds good ,but Huei pump is putting out around 3000 lbs pressure so would a spin on filter stand that kind of pressure? Like the idea of filtering the oil out of the pump before it gets to the injectors.Not sure what to use or how to do it ,and where to get it. Need ideas! Nige you have any info on something to try or use?
A screen wouldn't have helped our failure, the fine shavings that I saw would not have been caught by a screen. We had an earlier serial number GJB (D6R XL III) that had a HUEI fail. Ended up pulling the plug on the back of the head and found fine metal shavings in the draining oil. We did a cylinder cut-out, isolated one weak injector; replaced pump (Cat Reman), flushed the rail and changed one injector (crossed our fingers, owner didn't like the idea of changing all six injectors.) After a few hours the machine was skipping again, another couple injectors showing weak. Called local Cat dealer, let them send a mechanic to it for warranty purposes. Cat changed all injectors and warrantied the Reman pump that we installed, machine ran about 10 hours and the same thing happened again. Cat had to eat the injector and labor cost this time, thankfully. Final tally was three HUEI pumps failed within 20 hours of operation. Pressure would most likely be too high to filter between the HUEI and the unit injectors, and screens would probably increase the possibility of cavitation which would affect injector actuation performance.
Hi there, I ran a fleet of D6 r's& T's for a number of years. In the early days, yea I had this problem. One series 11 D6R was so bad that in bad temper one day I called the low loader and took it back to the yard. I then pulled the cylinder head of and steam cleaned the actuation rail for hours ( I was in quite a rage ). After rebuilding, installed 6 injectors and a pump, and expected it to start missing within the week. It didn't, 2000 hours later she was traded in and never had another injector. I developed my own procedure for flushing out the actuation rail in the cylinder head in situe after this, had had good results.
The Ford power strokes uses a in line filter on thier HUEI pumped engines. I used the same in line filter on the C-9 (it fits). This screen is a very fine screen. It will plug up fast when the HUEI falls apart and the engine will die due to the lack of oil going to the injectors. It is mounted coming right off the HUEI pump. We always clean the fuel rail in the head on HUEI failures and this screen catches the fines from what we seen cleaning the fuel rails out on a failure. Two pump failures so far and no injectors replaced so far.
Thanks for the information.
C7 HEUI Pump failures Just been reading about some issues with HEUI pump failures. I work in offshore oil and gas and we use C7 for gensets at around 200-250kWe (at 1800 RPM) on three of our offshore vessels. We've had a number of HEUI pump failures on all three vessels and one engine had less than 1000 hours, and on that particular engine it was also found that the top piston rings had been put in upside down (when manufactured). From our experience it is worth doing oil samples every 250 hours (at the oil change) and as soon as you see the iron level start to rise it's a good indicator that the thrust bearing in the HEUI pump is probably on it's way out. Another indicator (combined with high iron content in the oil) is the repeated failure of injectors (for us is was typically #1 or #6 injector). Caterpillar has upgraded the size of the thrust bearing in the HEUI pump and the part number is now at revision 2 (where the thrust bearing and pump casing is physically larger). If you put the original or rev 1 pump next to the rev 2 pump you can see the size difference in the pump casings. The HEUI principle is good for economy and emmisions at low load, but the poor engineering in the sizing of the HEUI pump thrust bearing on the rev 1 pumps (being undersize for the load borne) borders on being classified as a latent defect. On the last failure I experienced we ordered a replacement pump and received a rev 1 pump, but when the CAT Tech turned up to install it he had a rev 2 pump with him. When I asked the difference he reluctantly showed me the difference in the casing. The rev 2 pump also came with a service bulletin and fuel system checklist. Needless to say we installed the rev 2 pump, removed the injectors and HEUI pipework thoroughly cleaned the gallery and pipes, then reinstalled the same injectors with new o-rings and have had no further problems. Hope this helps some other sufferer's out there.
Got a HEUI pump on a 12h -C9 showing erratic fuel pressures which is by the book is a failing pump . but also brings on the oil press light at times s/n CBK 00801
First experienced trouble with a Cat HEUI pump in 1988. These pumps do NOT like nor tolerate water or dirt in fuel! Expensive to repair or replace, plus all the labor cleaning out the lines, not to mention likely replacing the injectors. Then there is the downtime as well. Cat has never had the greatest fuel filtering systems and I have modified many a rig with additional or better quality filter setups. Far as I'm concerned, the HEUI's are junk engineering, but there isn't, so far as I know, a complete and better replacement. I strongly recommend having the Cat house send out a skilled and experienced technician to do anything with these systems. They then get to pay all the costs when it goes bad again within the warranty period.
They will just say your fuel is bad and the problem is yours.
That's why you sample every load of fuel you get, John. I got caught out with fuel problems in a couple of states and learned this vital lesson. Fuel testing costs a hell of a lot less then paying $33,000.00 for a new injector pump and six nozzles, plus labor and all that. I should imaging it would be double that today. All that's needed to know is if there is water, bacteria, dirt, and what the BTU number is.
Do you sample at the bulk tank, fuel truck or when you fill each piece of equipment? How many people refuel out of five gallon cans? That brings up a thought. Has anyone ever seen a fuel test kit like they use in the military. It consisted of a vacuum pump that pulled a specified amount of fuel through a treated filter which would reveal solids or water contamination. I had to sample fuel every time we refueled a helicopter. That could be done between the bulk tank and the job tanks easy enough. It looks to me like it may be a necessary evil going forward.
Generally, I liked to sample fuel transport tanks BEFORE they broke the seals and unloaded. I tried to always have someone of my maintenance crew present when the trucks arrived. My guy observed the truck driver break the topside hatch seals and then drew samples off the bottom of the tank. Samples were physically inspected onsite and then sent to a sample test lab for a full analysis. This did not always get done, especially at the start of any given project, or at the end as well. Exaample of getting burned: A newer Cat 245 excavator finished on another project in Maryland arrived on a job in West Virginia where I happened to be the Maintenance Manager. It seemed to operate alright and after final assembly, it began to work loading some 777 Cat end-dumps. within that first shift, the excavator engine began to act up. A check of the fuel filters detected visible water and unknown material in the filter pleats. Complete filter changes were performed as was a drainage of the fuel reservoir and cleaning all fuel feed and injection lines. Engine ran fine for an hour or so, then back to problems. Local Cat house sent down a tech and he replaced the pump and injectors as well as doing everything we had done the day before. However, my master mechanic drew me aside and stated that on the previous project, he knew that the purchasing agent had made a deal with their fuel supplier to purchase returned home heating oil. This fuel was collected as part of a program the fuel supplier had with it's residential customers every fall before winter arrived. The supplier then offered it to the PA at a greatly reduced price and he bought several loads before the job was completed. Problem was, all the heating oil was severely contaminated. The 245 HEUI system demands very clean fuel and it was overwhelmed to destruction. I had the fuel supplier for our project drain all the fuel from all the units we had and then refill them with new fuel. I also implemented a new fuel policy for our job that required fuel sampling, and a rigid changing of fuel filters at every 250 hour maintenance interval. Also required that adequate amounts of fuel conditioner be placed in unit fuel tanks per manufacturers instructions. (Conditioner manufacturers) This was winter 1998 and a exceptional cold front intruded over a weekend. We were the only earthmoving company operation 100% that Monday morning. Fact was, we were about the only outfit with diesel engines operating in a one hundred mile radius of the project. Even our fuel supplier could not get his trucks out as they were all froze up. Our corporate Equipment Manager called up from Dallas and stated comfortably that he expected we were shut down like everyone else in the area. Boy, was he surprised to hear that we were in full production with zero problems. I still have the letter of commendation our project manager wrote to me for enabling us to run. It a week or more before many companies in the area were able to get back up and running. Another example: On a contract coal mining operation in West Virginia, The new corporate Equipment Vice-President and I were hired within a month or so of each other. He was a great friend and we had worked together before. We soon found that conditions with the equipment and lack of maintenance were far worse than he had so far known. So far as the fuel was concerned, we were burning about 20,000 gallons a day. We had 50,000 gallons of storage onsite. The storage system did not have any filtering in-line anywhere. The fuel arrived at all times of day and night and no one supervised the unloading. We got away with that situation during the summer and early fall, but before we could get a large commercial filter unit rigged up, winter hit and once again, a cold front moved in over a weekend and we came dangerously close to a shutdown because of lack of fuel. The current fuel transport firm had all it trucks froze up and could not meet their delivery goals. Found out later (why is it always later?), that the fuel they were delivering was: "barge bottom sludge." The fuel was shipped out of Texas by barge up the various rivers to a fuel dock on the Kanawa River downstream from Charleston, WV. When the removal of fuel from the barges reached a certain level, the pumps were shut off and the "empty" barge moved aside to provide room for a full barge at the receiving dock. The remaining bottom fuel was then removed into a special tank that was designated to hold contaminated fuel. We paid that trucking firm for the fuel, not the people that delivered it upriver. The trucker naturally bought the cheapest product he could find and delivered it to us. It took me a while to catch on and get the straight story, but in a couple of weeks I fired that outfit and contracted with a trucking firm out of Charleston, actually the same company that saved our bacon by being able to deliver during that cold spell. Much gnashing of teeth and hair pulling later, corporate finally settled down and admitted that I made the right move. I then initiated the same fuel system maintenance programs as I had done on the other project and, with the final assembly of the large filter at the fuel farm our troubles were over as regards fuel. The only reason I can figure why we didn't a greater problem with fuel before that was that we were using so much very quickly. Lost production time due to fuel problems is a large number no matter what size the contractor or end user is. It pays off to have strict fuel purchasing and delivery systems in place right from the get go. I could probably write all night long on this subject with experiences concerning over 50 years in the heavy earthmoving and mining industries. 5 gallon cans of fuel are a bad move. Probably the best way to contaminate fuel there is. Use a tank mounted in the bed of a pickup, with a reasonably priced filter and electric pump assembly if you are into small quantites. I would not recommend sampling any reservoir of less than 4000 gallon capacity. But in that situation, demand sample reports from your supplier. If he does not want to do that, find a supplier that will. Good luck to all.
Interesting read. Your "policy" is as rigorous as what we had to do with JetA50 B train loads coming in for the aviation fuel farm I worked at.
Wow I never knew a 3406 came with a HEUI pump. Bob
I am not aware of all heui set ups on all cat engines. The ones I have dealt with are 3126b and c7s. A hydraulic pump failure is often linked to two issues, oil contamination ( which has been covered) and cavitation. It would be advisable to address the suction line to the pump. On the heui pumps I have replaced( 3126b , c7) I also remove and disassemble the suction assembly and almost invariably find the orings to be hard and brittle, which I conclude to be cause of failure. Air bubbles will destroy the pump without a doubt.
These are pictures of the suction assembly on a C7. The suction leak places are the crimps to rubber hose, oring where the pipe enters the plate, and the oring where the plate meets the engine block. IMO most common HUEI pump cause of failure , at least in my tiny slice.
Seen C9s 3176 go way over service ,fuel caps covered in crap go without trouble ,seems you do the right service keep fuel clean Huei pump ***** itself ,Like to replace the C9 with a mechanical 3306 how good would that be
Hi FMD do you have a part number for the powerstroke inline filter. Have had to replace two HEUI pumps and a set of injectors in the last 1200 hours Westrac (cat dealer) said bad luck out of 12 months warranty. Now running at $14per hour just for fuel injection repairs. Not going to put up with this crap will solve the problem myself with a little help from my friends Regards boof474
He's not posted since 2013. Don't expect a reply. What is the engine installed in..?
Hi Nige C9 is in a D6R series 3 12740 hrs
Thanks Birken have looked at these and will probably build my own from a Hydac df60 filter Not a lot of room to install on D6R Keen to see what the Powerstroke filter looks like
Got a S/No..? Lots of different options of D6R III out there. What works on a Powerstroke won't work on that engine. Too much oil flow to the HEUI system. Are you replacing the HEUI pumps/injectors yourself or is Westrac doing it..? Because there is a specfic cylinder head cleaning procedure that Cat insists is to be undertaken after a failure. I need to find it. I seem to recall something being out there for that size of engine (not necessarily D6R), again I just need to find it.
EXL00143 Westrac have replaced all pumps x 4 all injectors x 12 Machine works seasonally Jan to March approx 400 hrs per annum Is on 200 hr oil change Use ultra high efficiency filters Rubia Works 1000 oil (fortified for high temperature) plenty of days over 40 degrees Celsius here Has had the full flush as per cat procedure
OK, Total oil. Good stuff. 40 DegC is not out of the ordinary as far as I'm concerned. Last couple of jobs have been temps in the range high-30's to low 40's year round. We never used any "specially fortified for high temp" engine oils for those applications. What Part Number of engine oil fitler are you using.? Are you using Ultra-Low Sulphur fuel..? How many operating hours has it been getting between failures..? Stable intervals or reducing hours to next failure after every previous one..? Did Westrac ever have the cylinder head off for cleaning..? Sounds like Westrac should be going into bat for you for some Goodwill from Cat. Maybe the reason they have not done that so far is that their repair procedure leaves something to be desired compared to Cat's requirements..? The last bit is opinion/speculation on my part but I don't think I'm too far off base. I sent you a PM wiith some interesting info.
Oil filter 244-4484 Yes we have to use ultra low sulphur diesel The machine belong to the Esperance Shire for the first 10200 hrs under Westrac service contract it had two pumps replaced in that time Esperance Shire replace two pumps and numerous injectors(one injector manage to survive from original 11535 hrs) At 11535 hrs I replaced One pump plus Six injectors and an ECM At 12740 hrs I replaced the pump not the injectors as dealer recommended figure I'll wait and see on the injectors The head has never been of the engine
Engine oil filter P/N - check Fuel - check. The reason I asked is that sometimes in markets where ULSD is not used the best engine oil formulation is not always the "latest & greatest". Came across that more than once. All the classic signs of some contamination left inside somewhere after a pump and/or an injector change - decreasing intervals between successive failures. Have a look at the documents I sent you. Failure to adhere to those cleanout practices condemns the replacement HEUI Pump/Injectors to death before the key is even turned for the first time after they've been installed.
Thanks again Will look at oil cooler issue asap What are your thoughts on heui filter?
Been through three C-9 HEUI pump failures, Always 6 new replacement injectors with the pump, and blow solvent as many directions as you can find through the oil passages. Never had a recurrence.
It's a Band-Aid. Designed to treat the symptoms (stop the particles circulating) not the root cause (for whatever reason somebody didn't do the right cleaning in the first place). The foregoing is my opinion. (*other versions may be available.) +1 Wot RZ said. If necessary in the case of an extreme failure I'd consider pulling the head to clean it. Of course that doesn't tackle the million & one other places particles can lurk such as the oil galleries in the block, oil pump relief valve, etc, etc. Again, refer to the cleaning procedure documentation.
I was under the impression that the HEUI filter's purpose is to catch the particles the first time the pump shells itself so you have more chance of success going forward. Since it seems like they chuck metal fairly frequently even when everything is good, statistically speaking. I have never actually seen a HEUI filter since they showed up after our great state no longer allows them to be run on-road.
I don't think that's how it works. The filter appears to be designed to improve the quality of the oil being supplied from the engine oil gallery to the HEUI pump. It is plumbed into the line between the block and the pump inlet port. See the illustration below from the installation instructions. The filter is directional with oil flow going in the upward direction as-installed. I can find no information whatsoever why it was never adopted more widely on HEUI Engines in machine applications. All the published documentation applies to on-highway C7 & C9 engines only yet the same engine models are widely used in many machine applications.
In the video in post #64 he references the Cat low pressure filter at 0:52 and following and states its shortcoming. At 2:55 he explains the aftermarket one that is supposed to protect the injectors from HEUI pump particles.
Gotcha. Talking at cross purposes. I wonder how that particular inline filter would react on a C9 versus a C7.3 or whether it would require a housing with a larger flow capacity.? Going back to boof's problem it certainly appears to me to be a lack of cleaning. Each consecutive repair has lasted less time than the previous one. Also with the tractor only working approximately 400 hours/year in a seasonal operation I think I would be changing the oil & filter every 100 hours or so, or maybe even do it on a time basis (say 2-weekly or something like that). I think I'd also change the oil right at the start of the season if the tractor has been sitting for in excess of 6 month. How much does a few gallons of oil & a filter cost vs a HEUI pump and a set of injectors..?
Pretty close to that now Oil changes start of season and middle Always start on new oil and filter Have new gasket on the way for the oil cooler, will check the cooler for flatness when I get it
Were the docs I sent to you about cleaning (and possible contamination sources) any use..?
Information is always useful thanks Nige Flat out trying to finish up the season at the moment Probably in the process of ruining another pump Major going over during the winter scheduled There is an updated pump and tubing available from Cat I will get the part number It apparently has the inline oil filter but can’t be retro fitted Different pump according to service manager Still on the trail of it
If you can get any Cat Publication Numbers or part Number please either post them here or reply to my PM. I'll try to run them down from my end. It doesn't seem logical that an updated pump and tubing can't be retrofitted. I'd be interested to know the reasons behind that one.
Sorry Nige the pump and the tubing go together apparently The pump is so how different probably in the fitting area I would still like to see the filter and maybe I can work it into the system
Please ask the Westrac Service Manager for the Part Number of the new pump or installation kit or whatever, even if he swears blind the update can't be applied to your particular tractor.
Have messaged him waiting for reply
Roger. Hey, here's a thought. Are you performing oil sampling and analysis..? If not you really ought to be. It would indicate immediately if the oil was contaminated and with what. Like oil & filters - a $35 oil sample would be cheaper than a HEUI Pump
Did when I first owned it Will start again now Do you think the test will pick up the small amount of metal the heui puts out prior to failure
I think that you probably need to start with a sample of new oil in order to establish baseline numbers of whatever metals/non-metals are in it. I suggest to pay particular attention to the silicon number, it may turn out to be interesting. Once you have a baseline analysis of new unused oil (which will likely need repeating every year) you could pull a sample after say 10 operating hours and it would straight away give you an indication how much potential contamination there is in the engine. Then maybe 50 hours, etc, etc. Oil analysis is all about establishing trends rather than single sample results. Even sampling every 50-100 hours @ $X/sample would not be unreasonable based on the cost of the hard parts you are protecting.
Hi the last pump I did, had upgraded taper bearings and the pump is a little bit longer.I had to massage the oil pipe to make it fit and change a couple of fittings See if you can get on to Peter James at Cat in Tasmania either through Westrac or ring the branch direct. He is a bit of a guru with these engines We fitted the new pump to an on road Kenworth with the C9 engine
Hi Nige this is what he sent me at last and the tube assembly The tube assembly is the output side of the pump I don't see any filter in the picture of the parts. He also said that the injector tubes now have filters in them to protect them regards
looks like the images haven't come through Will try again
The top illustration is from a September 2013 Service Magazine announcing a new C9 HEUI Pump. "The new unit injector hydraulic pump group has a new bearing design which improves operation. The new Hydraulic Electronic Unit Injector (HEUI) pump has a physical dimension that is different than the previous pump. The different dimension may require the addition of new fuel and oil lines along with the pump in most applications. Refer to Special Instruction, REHS7902 for a list of parts needed to install the new pump group along with the procedure." - I think this is the one Mark was talking about earlier. The bottom illustration is from an August 2016 Service Magazine. "The new oil lines have cold formed ends and are more resistant to cracking." The comment regarding filters in HEUI injector tubes I'm not sure about.
I have looked at the injector sleeves on SIS, they don't appear to be long enough to cover the oil port on the injector Nige can you access REHS in SIS if so how do you do that Regards
If you're referring to REHS7902 check your PM's. It was on the first one I sent you.
thanks for that
G'day Nige Hope the isolation is treating you kindly. Have found some c9 injectors at the right "price". Different numbers but not by much, wondering if you could shed some light on the difference. D6R III original number 2934071 supersedes to 3879434 or reman 20R8063 Right price injector 2420857 supersedes to 3879436 or reman 20R8068 Though you may have a few more rescources than I have found Regards and thanks again
Those injectors 20R-8068/242-0857/387-9436 are for a C9 Marine Generator set. A pretty specialized application, that's probably why they are for sale at the right price - there won't be much market for them. Designed to run at fixed 1800 RPM and produces 311 BHP - a bit more than your D6R. Sorry fella, they wont work in your engine. They are from the same family of injector but are substantially different internally.
Thought it was too good to be true. Back to the drawing board. I suspect I have at least one injector that hasn’t survived the pump failure. Will get it hooked up to ET and see if it is just the one. Cold weather coming up here that will test it’s starting pretty good sign from previous experience that all is not well. Thanks for the help again
If you're going to test injectors using ET see if it will manually allow you to cut out more than one cylinder. You could probably cut out two cylinders and then test a third one. Putting more load on fewer cylinders will better show up an injector that is under-performing. As a comparison a 16-cylinder engine can be run happily at 1200RPM on 5 or 6 cylinders to allow the other cylinders to be tested.
Will give it a go. Last time round I replaced four injectors to start with. Ended up replacing the other two as it was really hard to start especially on a cold morning
That's not typical for a HEUI engine. Generally injectors with high leakage or a pump that's starting to go out cause more problems for starting when the engine is at normal operating temperature (because thin oil leaks faster) than they do when cold. I don't want to jinx things but you may have something else going on.
Right Two new injectors fixed it. I was trying to save a dollar by running the two old ones. One of those injectors had 11500 hours on it, it was an original injector had survived three pump failures. Makes the 1200 hrs look pretty poor. HEUI injectors GOOD HEUI pumps CRAP