I need to get some hydraulic fluid for my 906m. What are you guys using?
Any good-quality SAE10W commercial hydraulic oil that doesn’t have the words farm, tractor, or universal in either the name of the product or of the organisation selling it. Any major oil company brand should be just fine.
SAE 10w is also what I found on the net. My local Cat dealer told me that the factory fill on that machine was 30w.
SAE30 may well be factory-fill but for your location I would still go for SAE 10W in view of its improved low-temperature capability in winter temperatures. See below which is an extract taken from the O&M Manual.
Thanks for looking that up for me, Nige. I've been looking at a lot of different options. I thought I read somewhere that the HYDO Advanced is actually a multi-viscosity synthetic. I am waiting for a quote on Delo Torque Force. It meets the TO-4 spec, is a synthetic, and I'm expecting it to be less than the $109 per 5 gal that I was quoted at Cat. That was TDTO, which I believe is a conventional oil.
No, it's a high-spec mineral mongrade. HYDO is the regular offering. ihttps://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/CM20150813-35930-61404 https://www.petersoncat.com/sites/cat/files/downloads/Cat%20HYDO%2010WT.pdf If you are talking multi-viscosity (aka mulitgrade) then the only option would be TDTO-TMS which is a multi-viscosity synthetic powertrain oil that as a commercial oil would be a TO-4. https://www.petersoncat.com/sites/cat/files/downloads/Cat%20TDTO-TMS.pdf Straight viscosity TDTO is also a mineral mongorade. Commerical oils of the same specification are designated as "meeting Cat TO-4 spec". TBH I would not even consider using a synthetic. Mobiltrans HD10W (what we used to use) would meet the specifiction well enough. Conoco PowerDrive 10W or Shell Spirax S4 CX 10W would also be acceptable. Mobiltrans™ HD 10W | Mobil Delvac™ Transmission Fluids Discover how Mobiltrans™ HD 10W transmission and drivetrain oil can help optimize powershift transmission performance and provide maximum protection in high-pressure systems. www.mobil.com Note: We used TO-4 in hydraulic systems for the simple reason that we had some machines that required TO-4 and others that didn't. In an attempt to avoid any errors by having two 10W oils and to eliminate the possibility of filling straight HYDO oil in a system that required TO-4 we used TO-4 in everything.
Pardon my ignorance, but is there a disadvantage to synthetic for this application, other than price?
Other than you're wasting your money because the oil will be due for change based on hours/time operated (whichever comes first) loooooooooong before it becomes degraded by age, exposure to contamination, water, etc. Recommended oil change interval is 2000 hours or 1 year, whichever comes first. Comment below from 908M O&M Manual ref using Cat HYDO Advanced in place of Cat HYDO. "Cat HYDO Advanced 10 has an SAE viscosity grade of 10W. Cat HYDO Advanced 10 has a 50% increase in the standard oil drain interval for machine hydraulic systems over second and third choice oils when you follow the maintenance interval schedule for oil filter changes and for oil sampling that is stated in the Operation and Maintenance Manual. Extended oil drain intervals are possible when using S·O·S Services oil analysis." Note carefully the comment regarding the fact that extended oil drain intervals are only sanctioned if an oil sampling program is put in place at the intervals stated in the O&M. Most owners miss that caveat completely.
Ok, I'm following... 2000 hours would probably be more than 10 years for my usage. Is the 1 year interval mainly due to the potential for condensation accumulation over that time period?
Most likely. Also due to lubricant deterioration through the machine NOT being used. Oils do not maintain their quality ad infinitum when they lie in a machine system that is not working. Now when the O&M recommends 2000 hours/1 Year for a machine operating low annual hours you could probably stretch the 1 Year to 2 Years or maybe more, especially if you did an annual oil sample that would pick up oil deterioration, water, etc. You could NOT however stretch the oil changes to 10 years though.........
Ok, I'm following... 2000 hours would probably be more than 10 years for my usage. Is the 1 year interval mainly due to the potential for condensation accumulation over that time period?
Thanks, you are a wealth of information, Nige!
My 262B has milky hydraulic fluid and I am looking to change it. Temperatures get quite low here. So available to me in ascending order of price is: UFA AW32 ("For use in all types of piston, gear and vane pumps used in industrial, mobile and marine systems.") Certified AW32 universal hydraulic fluid or diesel engine oil. Cat says: "If Caterpillar Hydraulic Oil is not used, the following are acceptable alternatives.* • Cat Diesel Engine Oil • Cat Transmission/Drive Train Oil • Cat Transmission/Drive Train Oil: TDTO (TMS) • Cat Multi-Purpose Tractor Oil:MTO • Commercial Heavy Duty Diesel Engine Oil with a minimum zinc content of 900 ppm. (Heavy Duty Oils are identified by API classifications CD,CF-4,CG-4 or CH-4.)"
Define “low” please.
Coldest we have gotten is -46°C/-50°F but I don't run the machine much below -25°C/-13°F. I keep it indoors but not heated except the block heater for an hour or two before use. Summers get up to 30°C/86°F. I was thinking of just getting regular Hydo 10W which is also available I just have to drive quite a bit further to go get it.
If you are keeping it indoors and using a block heater before starting when it’s really cold a straight 10W hydraulic should work OK. If summer temps go up to 30°C/86°F you really cannot get away with anything lighter than 10W and maintain protection for the system components. When you first crank it up in cold ambient temperatures you will probably be well advised to exercise the implements for a while after starting to get warm hydraulic oil into all the cylinders and drive motors.
Thanks Nige. I really appreciate the information and you taking the time to respond. I hope just draining the reservoir gets enough cloudy oil out to resolve any issues. Still don't know if it was from pressure washing or mixing oils or what that caused it but several people have advised me to change it ASAP. You think it's water?
Hard to tell from a photo. I would suggest to get hold of some (relatively) cheap 10W and bank on changing the oil a couple of times. Once you get it clean you can think about putting some decent stuff in at the next oil change. Approximately how many hours a year does the machine operate.?
The machine operates only about 150 hours a year. The Hydo 10 is $140 a pail but I can get cheap AW32 (0W equivalent?) hydraulic oil for $70 CAD a pail. Says 9 gallons in the reservoir and 14 in the system. Other than doing multiple changes is there a way to drain the pump, lines, and pistons without disconnecting or damaging anything to get as much bad oil out as possible?
ISO 32 is approximately SAE15W, not 10W. You really need an ISO 25 or thereabouts. Change what's in the tank and plan on changing it every year, maybe twice in the first year. Unfortunately not. Draining lines, cylinders, etc, will always involve disconnecting lines and can get very messy. It is possible, but it is neither easy nor quick.
Thank you so much for all the information. This is the $70/pail stuff that has little information but I was scared it would damage something so I went with the Hydo 10.
I think you were right to pass on that no-name AW32. They don't even give a spec sheet for it. Always a red flag. You may find this chart useful.
The UFA AW32 is decent oil and a good price. It goes on sale for $62 a pail a few times a year. UFA sells a lot of oil and I've never come across anything negative regarding their oil. Apparently they have their own refinery. Certified appears to be a slightly lower grade oil than Motomaster oil at Canadian Tire but still decent enough. It's usually more expensive than the UFA oil. I've seen other charts where 32W is equivelant to 10W just a different oil spec. I've never seen a 0 weight that wasn't synthetic. Some skid steers call for a 10W-30 oil where TDH oil is a good option to use. If your hyd. tank is steel, you could get a magnetic heater to put on it. A pad heater that glues on is another option but more expensive. My skid steer has a hyd. oil heater but I don't use it when it's really cold out. I can't plug it in unless I get my generator started. It's usually just as easy or easier to start the machine.
Oh well I just poured 11 gallons of Cat Hydo into it last night. Next time maybe I will just use the UFA stuff. Would have saved me a couple hundred dollars.
I think you will find on the -25 days that your hydraulic controls are pretty sluggish until it warms up. We use an arctic hydraulic oil here in the skidsteer. It is an AW15. From petrocan. Cats sells a 0w20 oil for skid steers.
Yes I have noticed that, the most concerning issue being it is sluggish to stop moving and you have to make sure to stop short. The arctic oil was a lot more money so I cheaped out. I can live with it provided it isn't damaging anything in the machine.
Do you have any type of radiator shutter installed to limit the air flow through the cooling pack (coolant & hydraulic oil).? In winter you could even put a piece of cardboard in there to improve warm up times. The best would be a square piece of something with a small circular hole cut in the centre directly over the centre of the fan motor shaft. In that way the shaft will not experience unbalanced loads that could cause bearing failure.
I do not. The radiator is fully exposed. I could cover it with some cardboard. Thanks for the tip! After the fluid change and running it for an hour it went from the chocolate milk color to just a slightly cloudy yellow when the new 11 gallons mixed with what was left in the system. A huge improvement.
It has to be a circular hole and centred on the fan shaft to avoid unbalancing the load on the fan which would result in stress on the fan motor bearings. You can make it as small as you like to start with and if temperatures get too hot for your liking simply increase the hole diameter a tad. That sounds promising. For future fluid changes note the comment from @Mobiltech who is from your neck of the woods regarding the availability of an 0W20 hydraulic oil from Cat. Other alternative suppliers must be out there because Cat don't manufacture oils. It would appear that Petro Canada Hydrex XV fits the bill.
My concern with the 10w is that it can actually block the oil cooler flow because it gets so thick. The cardboard will definitely help . I have seen wheel loaders where the cooler goes into bypass mode and the oil in the rest of the system will actually overheat.
It's not extreme cold all the time in Central Alberta. Nobody is working in -40 unless they absolutely have to. Doesn't usually snow a lot when super cold. Maybe you could put cardboard or something on the rear door a little further away from the rad? I got a suction fan to help put more heat in the cab but took it back off because unless the engine and pump compartment (and belly pan) is hospital clean, you get an awful oily kind of smell in the cab. I have put cardboard on the rad a few inches smaller in size with about a 4" hole in the middle. I figured it would still allow air flow around the outside of the rad without putting too much stress on the fan. If I was doing a lot of snow clearing I think a canvas cover that could be opened up as needed with snaps on the rear door would be good idea. Same idea like semi's have on the front grill. The colder it is, the more the grill gets covered.
You certainly didn't hurt anything other than putting a bigger dent in your wallet. I used high end Petro Canada oil when I replaced a drive motor. Basic hydraulics I don't think the oil is as critical as if it's a hydrostat system.
Well, I'm going to speak up here and say I've been down this road, and I have at least two full 55 gallon drums of Cenex Indol EH that I'm going to sell to a friend for wet kit oil. I did my due diligence, even had Nige research it for me. It is supposed to be the best hydro oil Cenex offers. I put it in an excavator, and all three of my tractors. Everything is noisy, and it takes twice as long to limber up when it's 20°F or less. It's all getting drained out and replaced with Cat HYDO. Pumps are way to expensive to run chitty oil. That UFA stuff I'd only use to start tree piles on fire.
This is a hydrostatic drive system with a separate pump hung on the back for the implements. The oil is shared from a common tank. When the hystat drive pumps costs maybe $8k to replace you don’t skimp on oil quality - IMHO.
Pretty easy to codemn an oil when you know nothing about the supplier. I was saying the same thing about using better oil in a hydrostatic system. The original question regarding 10W oil, I think the UFA is good oil. Another member on the forum has used UFA oil with no issues as well. I use a 10W-30 oil in my skid steer. UFA is I guess what you'd call a higher end farm supply. They sell Shell and Chevron oil as well. They aren't at all like a cheap no name brand and have a very good reputation. Every spring and fall they have a big oil sale and a few smaller ones throughout the year. They put pallets of oil pails on the showroom floor because they sell so much of it. Not uncommon to see people buy 3 to 5 pails at a time. They are like a Co-op and if you sign up can get better pricing and rebates sometimes. They also sell building packages and veterinary supplies. Not things a discount store would sell.
I am not condeming the oil at all. My position is simply that I would not recommend any oil for which I could not find a spec sheet. I tried and couldn't find one for that hydraulic oil, which does not mean it doesn't exist. If you can supply one, post it up. Otherwise your irritating whining is becoming tiresome.
Wow, that's uncalled for! All I did was say UFA sells good oil. Here's a spec. sheet for it I found quite easily. Not my fault you couldn't find it. It would be better if they put it on the pail. https://ufadigmtg.blob.core.windows.net/default/ufa.com/documents/product_docs/1123839_ufa_anit_wear_hydraulic_oil_aw_32_specs.pdf
Sorry to pile on, Dave, but that sheet is useless in the world of specs. It's the same generalization that Cenex gives for it's oil. This is a spec sheet for Mobil. I'm not a Mobil guy, but DTE 10 has a viscosity index of 164. Your UFA is 114. That's just one critical measure IMO. Mobil DTE 10 Excel™ Series hydraulic oils Mobil DTE 10 Excel™ Series hydraulic oils are engineered to address the lubrication demands of high-pressure industrial and mobile equipment hydraulic systems. www.mobil.com
It does show that it meets (rather than recommended for) some common specs. and approvals and isn't a crap oil like the obsolete 303 spec. that was taken off the market. I don't know if you could contact UFA and get more info or test results?? I put some in the grader that calls for 10W oil and haven't noticed any issues or unusual noise.
Anyone who has experience working with lubricants for heavy equipment will tell you the same thing. The best use for that UFA spec sheet is punch a hole in the corner, hang it up on the wall in the bog and use it to wipe your *** with. It's a typical spec sheet for what could be referred to as an "economy brand" oil, (the same as the comparison Shimmy made above regarding Cenex oils - a brand that I warned him off buying at the time) it's full of implications but short on fact s. All smoke and mirrors........ What exactly does a table with two columns, one titled "performance summary" and the other full of tick marks actually mean.? That is a rhetorical question BTW. I already know the answer. In a spec sheet for any major brand oil somewhere there will be one or more, maybe all, of the following unequivocal statements followed by a list of specifications. No ifs, ands, or buts - they will be there...... This product meets or exceeds the requirements of This product has the following approvals This product is recommended for use in applications requiring Economy products may have a place in the market but IMHO a hystat system isn't one of them. This is my last word on the matter. Dave, you are now on ignore from this point forward. To quote a famous game show "You are the weakest link. Goodbye."
Nige, Hi, I was trying to look up the 309-6931: 5 Gallon Hydo Advanced 10 and the Advanced 30 through CAT parts. And it says it has been discontinued. And the Advanced 30 page no longer exisits. https://parts.cat.com/en/mustang/product/309-6931 Do you have any idea why it would be discontinued? It is available on different sites but was wondering if there was some problem with it that they figured out that would make it a bad choice now. I am redoing the cylinders on an older CAT 236 skid steer and wanted to replace all the fluids. I am in Houston, so not really any cold weather. Or should I just go with one of your suggestions you posted earlier in this thread. Thanks a lot. Texas
If you really want Cat-branded oil (produced by Mobil AFAIK) then call your Cat dealer and ask. Part Numbers can change for a multitude of reasons, even something such as a package size change. For example 5 gallons vs 20 litres. For a machine of that age I would simply go with a good quality SAE 10W hydraulic oil.
TorqForce 10W Not sure why CAT generally specs that vs a hydraulic oil. In many other skid steers, it specs ISO 32 or 46 oil. Yes, ExxonMobil makes CAT oil.
Nige, IceHole, Thanks for the response. I talked to CAT. No explanations on why it is discontinued. They still have the Advanced 10 and 30 for $130.00 per 5 gallon. But only a few of them over an hour away. They said they may be looking for someone else to manufacture it for them. But who knows. Anyway, I found an alternative at NAPA auto parts that says it it CAT spec. I was looking mainly for the zinc and it says it has 3 times the zinc. And supposedly for CAT. $109.00 5 Gallon out the door. But, no real specs that I could compare to all of Nige's. And don't have time to order it and have it shipped in. NAPA TO-4 Hydraulic Fluid SAE 10W Hydraulic Oil 5 gal https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NHF85505 Manufacturer ASG "NAPA TO-4 Hydraulic Fluid. Specifically engineered for Caterpillar and Komatsu brands, this exceptional fluid boasts three times the zinc content of standard hydraulic products. " So, not sure it is the best. But it says it meets all the specs for the TO-4. So, Hopefully, this will suffice for now. Let me know if you disagree with it in some way. Thanks again.
Looking at the spec it’s another smoke and mirrors deal. Long on rhetoric but short on facts. I wouldn’t use it if the machine was mine, might consider using it to light fires with, but don’t let fear stop you. Don’t you have an oil distributor for one of the major oil brands somewhere close by.?
Just going to share a little bit here, had a situation shared with me this winter. Someone had been using what they considered a very good quality hydraulic transmission oil in an excavator. Turns out it has a very good zinc content, but these pumps do not like zinc. It's not a Deere, FWIW. THERE IS A REASON manufacturers specify a certain oil for a particular machine. As they say, you do you, but me personally have decided I'm using Cat HYDO in anything that requires HYDRAULIC oil, and Komatsu HO56 in the excavator hydraulics. You guys that want to save or can't afford the extra $200 on something as important as oil can pay the price later.
As for the change interval, on my low use machines, a $20 oil sample tells me when the oil is degraded enough to warrant a drop and fill.
As long as the oil you're using was ever good enough in the first place haha.
I used conoco powerdrive to4 10w in nearly everything.
Hey Nige, Shimmy1, heymccall, icehole, Yeah, I agree. Not my first choice. Too much rain this morning to install the cylinders, I called CAT this morning again and they said they just got in 300 5 gallons. The guy the day before said he didn't know when they would get more. Guess it is not actually discontinued per CAT website. So, I went and grabbed that for 140.00 and returned the NAPA TO-4. I asked the guy at NAPA who makes the TO-4 for them and he said WARREN oil. I looked up the specs on the site and it only had this Warren Oil - Coastal SAE 10 TO-4 Drive Train Oil Coastal - DRIVELINE - TO-4 www.warrenoil.com " COASTAL TO-4 DRIVE TRAIN OILS do not contain friction modifiers or viscosity index improvers and CANNOT be used in farm tractors and are not designed to be used in engine crankcases. Typical Characteristics: COASTAL TO-4 DRIVE TRAIN OIL SAE VISCOSITY GRADE 10 30 50 Gravity, API 29.6 27.6 25.5 Viscosity @ 40 °C, cSt 41 101 248.5 @100 °C, cSt 6.34 11.5 20 @ 100 °F, SUS 191.3 468 1151 @ 210 °F, SUS 47 64.6 98.5 V iscosity Index 102 101 93 Flash Point °F 435 460 500 Copper Strip Corrosion Pass Pass Pass Foam Test Pass Pass Pass Product Code # Bulk 16300 16400 16500 Drum 16312 16412 16512 Pail 16309 16409 165009" Nige's link to CAT spec on HYDO for compare if you want. https://www.petersoncat.com/sites/cat/files/downloads/Cat%20TDTO-TMS.pdf Makes more sense to stick with CAT on this rather than running all over the place. 30 extra dollars. Thanks everyone for all of your help on this. It is very appreciated. Texas
Coastal. Pure s#it. Viscosity index barely over 100. Firestarter, nothing more, unless you have a fleet of log splitters.
That’s the most sketchy, private equity owned, oil blender in North America. They are still paying for the last Napa hydraulic oil lawsuit. New branding, same oil, new owners. “$10.85 million class-action settlement was reached regarding Warren-manufactured "303" tractor hydraulic fluid sold under NAPA, Carquest, Coastal, and Lubriguard brands between July 26, 2014, and [2022/2023]. Plaintiffs alleged the fluid was mislabeled, failed to meet manufacturer specs, and caused equipment damage, which the defendants (Warren Oil/NAPA) denied while settling.”
Wow, crazy stuff. They almost tricked me. Thanks Nige, Shimmy1, Coaldust. Glad I found this website. Glad it rained yesterday. lol You all have a good day!
Let that be a lesson to you, and to others……. And a cautionary tale to all those people who push off-brand oils for whatever reason. I’ll repeat what I said earlier that OEM-branded oil is not a necessity. However when shopping for alternatives it is better to stick to the major oil brands. In the TO-4 sector Chevron Torqforce and Conoco Powerdrive have already been mentioned. Let me throw out Mobiltrans HD also. All three are very similar products and you wouldn’t go wrong with any of them, it all depends which one of the aforementioned companies has a distributor close to you.
I see Chevron just announced their third price increase since the conflict started. Scheduled for mid May at 30%. XOM is at their third or fourth price increase, but I don’t get their notices or pay much attention. My oil friends tell me this mess won’t go back to normal until Q1 2027, best case scenario. I would consider consolidating skews, discussing extended oil drain interval's/SOS and carefully forecast inventory for the next 18 months. Stock up is what I’m saying. Especially, if you run Shell Brotella T6. The Qatar GTL Pearl plant is not coming back online anytime soon. Penzoil Platinum and many of the Euro spec 0w-40’s use Pearl base oil. The majors are not talking about this because they don’t have to and nobody wants to upset the shareholders. Lube oil is a very small part of the spreadsheet.
Hi all, new to the forum but have been following this thread Our local distributor is selling Sunoco TO-4 Transfluid oil and wanted to share the spec sheet and see what your thoughts are on it. They Also have Philips 66 Powerdrive which I believe is the same as the Conoco. I also have attached the Mobiltrans spec sheet for comparison. From my look at it, they all seems comparable and not a cheap off brand but would like a second opinion. I only plan on using it for hydro oil in our older Cat machines. Anything geartrain related I get Cat brand TDTO. $1500 for a drum of cat hydro oil irks me. The prices are getting insane, I priced the Sunoco out a week ago and today when I looked today it had went up $130 per drum. Crazy Another side question, would there be any issue with running a hydro oil like this in an older cat dozer. We have 2 D7 3Ts and 2 D6 9Us that will be needing hydraulic oil changes. My father said that back in the day they ran a 30W non detergent oil in those systems. Just for the blade lift cylinders pretty much
I would quite happily use any of the oils you listed above in Cat transmissions. Obviously the viscosity of the oil would have to be appropriate for the application. I don’t have experience of the Sunoco product but I do with both Mobiltrans HD and Conoco Phillips Powerdrive fluid. As far as I’m concerned you could use any of the three brands of TO-4 oil in SAE10W viscosity in any Cat hydraulic system, modern or old.
I don’t know anything about Sunoco, either. I never see their products in the PNW.
Wasn't it pretty much flush oil?
P66 Power Drive and Chevron Torq Force are the ones I deal with.
Whatever they had taking up space. Let’s package it and sell it to NAPA. lol
Do you do any lube pump-offs on West Dock?
“The prices are getting insane, I priced the Sunoco out a week ago and today when I looked today it had went up $130 per drum. Crazy” Yeah, I hear that we are starting to see a squeeze on group II base oils because that cut is now being used to make ULSD. Lube oil price increases are going to hit hard in June.
No, most stuff out that way we just do tote swaps or they get drums. Mostly pump tanks in town.