I often read posts that regardless of the subject, people find some way to put in a plug for either a Caterpillar or John Deere based on their preference. They all seem credible, but here is my observation that seems to indicate to me that when it comes to Dozers, Cat has the advantage. First, here is the basis for my observation. I have worked around the earth moving profession since 1974 when I went to work in the coal mining fields of eastern Kentucky. As a reclamation supervisor and quality control engineer for Tesoro Coal Company in Hazard, KY, the Cat was the preferred machine. They tried Terex which eventually everyone began to call Timex because they did not hold up. I later became a Reclamation Specialist and was on coal mines in KY, VA, West VA, TN, CO, WY, MT, North Dakota, and Alaska. The predominant machine was Cat. In fact, I do not remember a John Deere machine on any of the coal mines I inspected in all those years. In 1987, I became a Remedial Project Manager on the largest Superfund Site in the US. The famous Berkeley Pit and associated superfund activities in Butte, MT including Silver Bow Creek and the Clark Fork River. The incredible mess was created by the Anaconda Minerals Company but the obligations fell to ARCO who bought out Anaconda (they lived to regret that). In all the massive activities associated with the remedial activities in Butte and the actual reconstruction of 22 river miles of Silver Bow Creek, I never saw a Deere. Let me admit that most of the machines on these kind of sites were above the D6 size machines. But there were activites for smaller dozers going on and they were always Cat. In 2005, I went to Denver and worked on the Rocky Mtn Arsenal. This was a 6 square mile area near Denver where Mustard gas, sarin gas and other chemical weapons were producted and tested from WWI to Vietnam. It was considered one of the most contaminated sites in the world. Some operations required operators to use supplied air or SCBA and Level C PPE. There are 2 subtiltle C landfills on the arsenal and one of those (The Enhanced HWL) far exceeds subtitle C requirements due to the nature of the contaminats disposed there. About half those 6 square miles required earth work. There were several small dozers deployed there by numerous different contractors retained by the Dept of Defense. They were all Cat. I spent almost all my time doing on-site inspections. Often just watching dozers push dirt. Some of the best equipment operators on the planet were on this project. The requirements were as high as I have ever seen. Safety was beyond believe. If you were stung by a bee or nicked your finger with a pocket knife, it had to be fully reported and investigated and I mean that literally. There were cases of operators being escorted to the gates and released for what would have gone unnoticed on most coal mines. The point is this. Why did these high level contractors use Cat dozers? What do they know or not know that causes them to select Cat? In fact, I remember the adage at the arsenal, that if it is a dozer, it has to be a Cat. There was always other brands when it came to loaders, trucks, excavators, compactors, etc. But not when it came to Dozers. I have nothing other than this observation to support the conclusion that for whatever reason, all things considered, the big earth moving operations use Cat! Maybe change is on the way and my observation is dated. That is alright by me. I don't own Cat stock anymore!
I think You are doing what you accused others of doing "putting a plug in for you favorite machine" I don't care what brand a machine is. I want the best machine for the job. John Deere and Komatsu has came a long way the last few years. In the smaller Dozers from my experience John Deere is better than Cat. Larger Dozers it is between Cat and Komatsu, John Deere just does not have a big machine. I just ran the new D7E and was impressed with it and it will be interesting to see how it stands up in the long run.
I will admit to having a few biased bones in my body. When it comes to both working on them, operating them and looking at production at the end of the day i will take my Cats hands down over the Deeres any day and twice on Sunday.
As a owner/operator I steer away from CAT for one simple reason. I don't have a multi million dollar equipment line up. Our Komatsu and Deere dealer here in KY seem to try to help me out when possible. I bought a used D39 out of the rental fleet , after running it 100 hrs the under carraige was making the high pitch dry pin squeel ,so I called the dealer , they sent out a tech he said the pins and bushings were shot. I called my salesman he put it before the branch board and they agreed to pay for 1/2 of the new uc. This sealed the deal with me on this dealer. Cat would have probably told me to go get f@#@##. I'm not brand loyal I like anything that will dig , be efficient and low maintenance.
There is a reason Cat has the majority of the market share, It could be the quality of its equipment, it could be its service, it could be its parts availability, it could be how cat and its dealers stand behind and support their customers, It could be how the equipment holds it value, it could be the financing offered or it could be a combination of all.
Best? There was a time I would've agreed with this post. When I worked for CAT dealers I thought they were the greatest company ever. They were always trying to improve and make a better machine. They were very progressive and forward looking. I toured the factories and they were the most modern around. But then they came out with the high drive and that was it for me. Why increase the amount of track when that is a machines biggest expense? I can hear the outrage now so I'll leave it at that. I have also operated International and Case machines that had better blade control.
Thanks for the responses. To be human is to be biased. But my observation was not an opinion, personal prefererence or choice. It was what I saw in 40 years in the field. It is not proof that Cat is the best. My intent was to get just the kind of responses I got. Not one response can discount what we all know. In dozers, Cat owns the market. That is the point. Why? Whether they are better, etc. is subject to further scrutiny. But their dominance of the market is undeniable and there is a reason and purpose behind everything.
Just because they own the market now doesn't mean they always did or will continue to do so forever. They used to dominate the motorgrader market too. Look where being "forward thinking" and "innovative" got them there. Bar none...the reason that Cat leads market share in so many categories is because they have THE strongest dealer network in North America. The reason the Deere is the strong number two player in North America is because Deere has the second strongest dealer network. It doesn't matter how good the product is itself if there isn't a dealer to support it contractors will be looking for an alternative.
You can't tell me politics doesn't play a role here with Cat. Tax incentives etc, plus most goverment jobs road work or reclamamtion and the like. There has to be a lot of " free trips to evaluate my machinery " to insure they go Cat. You buy a new 6 and try to make a living with out federal monies and see how far that goes. I did and it didn't go. My point as an owner operator is that you must look at every angle to generate capital . The amount of spoilage padded into funded jobs more than compensates for the price of equipment. Economy is another , So pushing all this TIGER road crap is padding alot of pockets.
CATS only real competitor in the dozer field was Euclid/Terex and when the gov't broke up GM it stifled development. If gov't hadn't meddled and barring construction slowdowns just think what might have been. Many innovations came from manufacturers other than CAT. We might have roller bearing tracks with self-rotating bushings and track components with lubricant impregnated into them to reduce wear. I think CAT is onto something with the new D7E but if they had competition it might have come 10 years sooner. Politics definitely played a role as CAT dominates the market much more than GM ever did and it hasn't been broken up.
I'd throw in that Cat has been building construction equipment longer than has Deere. Time breeds loyalty. I would rate the two companies dealer networks pretty close to each other. You don't have to travel far to find one. Cat came out with their challenger line of rubber tracked ag tractors about a decade ago. That didn't work out too well for them. Tough to claim superior dealer network when going against Deere. I claim to be bias free...I bought stock in both companies
I think some would argue that International at one time and Allis Chalmers were stiffer competition than Terex/Euclid, and once they were out of the way Komatsu were ready to step in. Be interesting to see what LiuGong do with the Dressta line - be good to see the big two have some real competition above 25 tonnes, and good for the industry.
You mean likes cats system one tracks. Competition is good. without it there would be no need for developments and the customer would get shafted.
I meant roller bearings in the chain and lubricant impregnated on the "outside" of track components much as molybdenum is impregnated in some cylinders. I'm not a chemist or engineer that's their job to develop. The point was exactly that competition stirs innovation. It was just an example of what might have been long ago.
It would be difficult to beat my local Cat dealer for supporting old machinery. The only bad point about deere support I have found is their rabid territoriality. If you go on their find-a-dealer site from a zipcode in one dealers territory, they won't show you any of another dealer's branches, even if they are closer.
I could not agree more!!
In my part of Australia Cats would out number John Deere's 50 to 1 plus and in my 35+ years only ever sat in a JD 350 ??????? once. I guess John Deere construction has never been pushed Like John Deere Ag has in my neck of the woods. Cheers Leroy
Neither ! I have operated only one Cat in my few short years as an operator, it was an alright machine but I found it to be not as good when it came to doing some fine grading. They are nothing in comparison to my 350B Case..she may be a little machine but she can push some major dirt !
Cat would have probably told me to go get f@#@##. I'm not brand loyal I like anything that will dig , be efficient and low maintenance I think you have the wrong idea about Cat dealers. They are the market leader for there support & parts availability. The Cat Dealership I use works with me extremely well & in similar situations has either covered the entire cost or split it 3-ways between themselves, Cat & me. Give them a shot I bet you would be pleasantly suprised
I agree with ih100 the Allis Chalmers, InternationaL Harvester , Euclid were all good machines in their day, The Fiat Alliss FD 31 buried a new Cat D10 on coal stockpile, so you want . to skin a Cat put another brand beside. it.Cats are more expensive to purchase., Komatsu are Cats only opposition in the Larger machines there's nothing wrong with Komatsu.they are reliable. I used to have a break down on costs of running various Machines Cat was the most expensive {Dozer} to run to repair many will dispute this.\," well" go ahead you welcome. it is free to dispute but it cost dollars to fix a CAT
Cat May sell the most but are far from the BEST It is interesting to note John Deere sells more crawlers in the 80-200hp line then anyone else?They do have a tough tractor most to the thanks of Liehberr where these tractors are based from.It is also interesting to note that in the late sixties IHC was the leader in terms of Sales and most likely in innovation.Give Cat credit for setting up a dealer network that is unmatched and being able to promote product.As far as being tougher than the rest I doubt it,we've ran just about every type there is and they all seem to have good and bad points.I've stayed away from Cat just because of there extra cost and no extra performance gains for the cost.It just didn't add up for me.
I'd say that's not quite right. 950 and 1050 are the only Liebherr dozers Licensed by Deere. . Track loaders were liebherr until the new K series. Liebherr buys the 700 from Deere because it's better than anything they can build. A side story; Liebherr had a PR764(D8) sitting at Conexpo for 3 years and finally dumped it at RB back in march. I'd say liebherr dozers don't have the best rep in NA.
John Deere Hydros The Hydrostatic tec that john deere has all comes from Liehberr under licence built in USA.They had a joint agreement with them to build their small line dozers,your right about the 950 and 1050 which were complete Liehberr dozers painted John Deere colors.Your also right about Liehberr's rep in North America but that doesnt mean its a bad tractor,if you paint it green(pr764) it would be a 1050.
steve k, No one said that deere sold more in that size class then cat. But the market share is alot closer then what it used to be. As as far as the your tech telling you that about smaller deere dozers is off like hvy1ton said.
All Liehberr tractors use a Linde system. All 450 - 850's use a Sauer-Danfoss system The only dozer that Liebherr and Deere have a relationship with other than the 950/1050 is the 700J which is painted yellow and white and is sold as the PR714 in Europe. Liebherr has nothing to do with the design of the 450 - 850. Deere dozers have never been green. Furthermore the PR764 is the next size bigger tractor than the 1050J. The PR754 is the 1050J sized machine in which there are differences between the two tractors. Most noteably the transmission control and software.
You're also wrong about the hydrostatic system....it has more in common with a Bombardier snowcat than it does a liebherr crawler.
John Deere green The John Deere Green was abit of a joke (as in tractors)but I guess you didn't get it.The last time I looked the 1050 was a 8 size tractor being 335 hp??The 950 is a 7r size tractor being 247 hp Thats what I was talking about.I'm not bashing John Deere I own 2 750's.If you talk to someone in the know they will also tell you that they worked with Liehberr to get the Tecnology for there small dozer line.My point of this whole thread was there small line out sells Cat which it does that is no secret.In fact they outsell everyone up to 200hp
The PR754 is closer to an 8K. The PR764 is supposed to compete with high drive D8's and D9H's. ointhead Here is an excerpt from a 2000 press release on the Deere/Liebherr relationship (same year Deere started the H dozers). Notice it doesn't mention any kind of licensing outside the 950/1050 and track loaders. Deere cleaned out their media archives, so i can't find the original press release from Jan 2000. I bet farm_boy could if you need primary sources. Think about it for a moment, if all the tech came from liebherr why do they buy 700's from Deere? Didn't they paint the 1010's or something green?
The PR764 is a D9T size tractor - 116K lbs/417HP. The PR754 is a D8T size tractor - 90K lbs/335HP. Check out Liebherr's web site here OK....technically yes. You got me there.
Baseless claims. steve.k, It seems that you have a propensity for spreading rumors or at least distorting the thuth. You say that "someone in the know" will tell us that John Deere owes the technology for small dozer hydrostat to Liehberr, I say incorrect and ask you to put your money where your mouth is and provide proof. If you lack proof then please quit spreading your distorted version of the truth. I worked for Deere as a mechanic for 12 years and looking at Lieberr's hydrostats and Deere's, they share few similarities. I believe this forum promotes facts to back up claims, I am calling you out, provide proof or be silent on subjects where your knowledge is lacking.
I guess that works both ways Coalrulz,I received my info from The John Deere reps from Red Deer and I'm not saying that John Deere's machine is a copy of Liebehr exactly.John Deere has had working agreements with Liebehr for years that is no secret,they needed refinements for their dozers so as part of those agreements it was shared.This happens with nearly all manufactures it has happend with IHC/Komatsu eventually leading to Komatsu buying part of IHC/Dresser. oh and I wonder where John Deere received there hoe tecnology?Dont spose those look any thing like Hitatchi either.Its cheaper for them to use the hydraulic products that are available here,but the design paremeters were efforts from both companies?If you need documents I;ll see what I can do.I bet you didn't know that the komatsu line of loaders came from IHC,then Dresser.Thats right I got that info right from Dressta's North American Rep two weeks ago over lunch!So for the most part I dont spread the Bunk you accuse me of! Here is and interesting linkhttp://www.deere.com/en_US/rg/infocenter/infoevents/pr/2007/service_network.html.
Guess you missed my post. The Sauer Sunstrand system found in the 450-850 h and j crawlers has nothing to do with liebherr. The 950 and 1050 j's are the only liebeherr dozers with deere stickers. Your rep in Red Deer is talking out of his arse. Nothing Liebherr has ever offered has "refined" any of Deere's products.I hope the departure with the trackloader line is the beginning of a full step away from Liebherrs "technologies".....especially with the small frame loaders.
Your Sure about that Cutting Edge If you read the whole post you would understand what is being said.I dont really care whos pumps and hydraulic system they use Its the idea of putting it altogether I'm talking about.And no I didn't miss it!
John Deere j series pumps I find it interesting that John deere is using Sauer-Danfoss hydraulics in their crawlers which just happens to be a Danish/German company the very same company Liehberr has joint agreements with?? http://www.sauer-danfoss.com/stellent/groups/publications/documents/product_literature/520l0987.pdf Here is a link that talks about the joint agreements between John Deere,Liehberr and Sauer-Danfuss.It is all just a little to coincidental for me??If you remember back to the mid eighties the jd line of dozers were pretty sad,then all of a sudden their dozers did a 180 and they are starting to lead the way??It also seems it was close to the time they do a deal with liehberr on loader tecnology Hmmm?I also find it hard to beleive everyone excepts the fact that JD is using Hitatchi Hoes but they don't beleive they are teamed up with Liehberr also?Read the link scroll down to the John Deere loader and read the paragraph about part of the team?This mentions alot about the 3 companies working together to design systems for crwlwer dozers starting in about 1997???That should clear up alot!!It also mentions the fact Liehberr contacted Sauer-Danfoss to design a system for the new 605 john Deere loader?????After the success of 650j crawler dozer????? What! Why would they do that when they are not affiliated?????
Steve K, Well you can clearly read that Sauer-Danfoss and Liebherr are TWO different companies. And this was the first time Liebherr and S-D had worked together, but Deere has used them for a while. And this is not really an " joint agreement" page. It would out line the details.. And No the 450's where a pretty popular dozer for that time and there are plenty of them still around.. When Deere starting offering the bigger dozers in 89 with the 650 deere had a bigger market and maybe some of the reason for the success.(yes I know that the 750 and 850's were out before that) And Again with Deere-hitachi, Its a joint venture. Not all Hitachi. 50-50. Actually Deere pretty much has the say in the U.S. when it comes to Hitachi. You seem to be mixing what it says. Yes Deere is partnered with Liebherr, Bell, Hitachi, Letourneau, and has bought out a few as well.. Anyway, that was a good read Steve K. Thanks for finding it. When it gets down to it, I have no problem people commenting and even showing me something new with deere, but I just want it to be straight. Its like 10 people reading the bible(the ones that do) reading one scripture and getting 10 different things Everyone needs to be on the same page.
Deerfan I give up!!It clearly states that Liehberr brought S.D to the table to design a system for john Deeres 605.After the success of the 650j ( which I assume they also designed)!I don't know what else to tell you, other than a written note from the CEO ofJohn Deere.If you ask me the writings on the wall,and as far as Hitatchi goes they are their own Idenetity.John Deere doesnt tell them anything.And the John Deere hoes are Hitatchi with JD engines end of story.The early Jd crawlers Were poor and if it wasn't for Liebherr we would still have a gearshift between our legs and the long lever steering clutch.I guess the whole Just of this thread is to prove that Liehberr was involved with Jd's small dozers, the 650j which they make reference to is clearly stated.We do not know which others were involved but me being a guessing man I would say probably all. I do have a e-mail in to the vp of marketing and hopefully he can clerify which I'm sure he will be happy to!Most of them are eager to help!It also states that Liebherr builds a number of loaders and dozers for Jd,it also states that SD worked as a team with Liebherr and Jd as far back as 97 in a joint effort????How much more is needed?
Taken from page 8 of your PDF. the drive system is not unique to liebherr,or deere for that matter but liebherr wanted to use the proven drivtrain that deere was already using in a similar sized machine. Furthermore, the c series crawler loader was a liebherr with a deere engine paint and stickers. The new K series is 100% Deere. This is getting silly....but take it from someone who honestly knows...the small/mid sized deere DOZERS are 100% Deere. ....and Liebherr can have their POS wheel loaders back
YaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Right I give a Rats --- about the loaders,This is about JD and Liehberr working together on dozers which they obviously have since at least 1997!It was probably before that but who knows.And you know a 100% ya right are you a deere executive???????????????????? Didn't think so!
OK, cool....you win,enjoy.
DEEREMAN, not deerefan. And there you go guessing and assuming again. You might not know which machine they are involved in but I DO!! I really don't do pissing matches with nobody on here b/c its really quite pointless. But when its clearly written there it is what it is. Yes, If you need to forward an email. By all means. DO!! And your opinion on the dozers are, well , quite that, an opinion. I KNOW plenty of people that love their 450c's and wouldn't trade them for anything. And if you think its just a deere engine in a hitachi YOU need to make a trip to Kernersville,NC. And talk with one of the guys there!! Cutting Edge-you just can't tell someone something when it comes straight from the horses mouth. Back to the OP
This thread has come a long way since I posted it. I just reread my oringinal post. The original post is my observation of what I have seen in my career around the earth moving industry. Is there a hint of my bias for Cat. Yes, but the observation is honest and real. In this part of the world where farming predominates, I see small Deere dozers. There seems to be a lot of opinions that the small Deere dozers are nice machines. I don't have any opinion on that as I have never gone beyond looking at them. I agree with those who have stated that it does not matter who makes a machine if it performs well.
Sorry Deereman HHa You Talk about what you know But You are the one not listing any proof to the contrary!If I'm wrong then post proof!I posted that these two worked together and thats it.I'm not bashing Deere I own some but Deere did not get all the tec on their own just like nearly all the other Manufactures out there.And if a ruffled feathers I'm sorry .
opcorn
Steve k, it really don't bother me but I have contacted someone to help solve this. If I'm wrong. I'm wrong and will admit it. You keep saying one thing then another. If I really wanted to I could go through your post and show you. But lets move on. Shall we. Just waiting to hear back from my contact..
This is reply I received from JD Steve, There is a marketing agreement between Deere and Liebherr. They make larger crawler dozers and crawler loaders where Deere does not. Deere makes the smaller crawler dozers where Liebherr does not. A larger distribution of both company products is available now than before this marketing agreement was in place. You might enjoy our Construction equipment Magazine called Review. A sample is found at: http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/c8afcceb#/c8afcceb/4 W.R. Customer Assistance Center was forwarded your original request as an FYI. To further elaborate on your request, John Deere designs and builds the Crawler Dozer models, 450J, 550J, 650J, 700J, 750J, 850J, and now the 850K. Deere does have a supply agreement with Liebherr for the 950J and 1050J dozers. In that agreement, Liebherr builds the machines and Deere offers design suggestions for the North American market. For the 750 size dozer, Deere pioneered the hydrostatic crawler design back in the mid 1970’s so we have been with that basic design for many years. Bill Gehrts Manager Dealer Marketing Assistance Center Customer Assistance Center Here's the requests I received From JOhn Deere.While JD does have an agreement with Liebherr they did design the small line tractors you guys said.I was wrong and sorry for ruffling feathers.I was impressed on the promptness from these guys. Steve
was forwarded your original request as an FYI. To further elaborate on your request, John Deere designs and builds the Crawler Dozer models, 450J, 550J, 650J, 700J, 750J, 850J, and now the 850K. Deere does have a supply agreement with Liebherr for the 950J and 1050J dozers. In that agreement, Liebherr builds the machines and Deere offers design suggestions for the North American market. For the 750 size dozer, Deere pioneered the hydrostatic crawler design back in the mid 1970’s so we have been with that basic design for many years. Bill Gehrts Manager Dealer Marketing Assistance Center Customer Assistance Center Here is the next replie from Bill. Im cooking my crow as you guys read this.
Takes a big man to admit he's wrong, Steve. Mind you, I believe - and I'm prepared to be shot down - that the hystat tracked loaders were more Leibherr than Deere? Until recently, that is.
bumppp
It's all good...sometimes you just have to trust that some folks have extensive experience with certain brands and some may even work alongside engineering teams and Customer Advocacy Groups..
Yes...you are 100% correct....I stated that earlier in this thread. The k series trackloaders are now 100% deere
The C-series 1 was all liebherr. C-series 2 had alot more deere and north American market influence in it. By the time the D-series rolled around it finally had alot of Deere in it.. Now with the K-series Deere has been able to carry over the same basic designs and setup from the dozers. The 605 is/was? coming from the liebherr plant in Austria. Steve that was fast on the response on Deere's part!!:usa Nice job, I've still not heard back from my report.. Oh well.
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Ive been fine grading for quite a few years and i have to say I'll take a Deere over a cat any day for fine grading!!! They are a better balanced machine
2 different reps at conexpo said the engineers should be finishing up the 605K sometime this summer. The 605C's had a few deere bits in them, but i've never know exactly which. This is the bad part about Deere's joint ventures and whatnot. Some people believe that Deere doesn't build construction equipment anymore. ointhead
The Frame was the only thing liebherr. When they first came out we were one of the first dealerships to get one. Then we got a slew full of them.. We call them LieDeere's(Lee-Deere's)
Well what can I say guys I really thought Liebherr was more involved?I did have a good chat with Bill online and he did clear up alot.Going to have to set my rep straight next time in town.I've had good success with the European dozers namely Fiat Allis but they even originated in the U.S which explains alot.Oh well it was a good lesson and hey I did find out even the big boys at Deere will answer you back pronto.Thats good news! Steve:notworthy
I don't know squat about dozers but I did operate a JD 650J last year for one week and I had absolutely no complaints. On the other hand, I had a new JD 5500 farm tractor and it had several issues. CAT has the cooler name (LOL). John Deere? Really?
The John Deere name and company have a long, long history.
I think JD and Liebherr are in bed more than they let on! This was quite a discussion when it first came out. I think I got so wound up I decided to give Liebherr a try?i do firmly beleive these two companies share more tec with each other than they care to admit? But whatever they're two world class companies and the more they share the more we gain! Can't beat that!
Interesting topic.. Only thing i can add is a lot of my mates owned Cat in contruction works and also farming.Some had Deere,but Cat was more much more common amongst them.>A few Case here and there. Cat have a great understanding on holding a huge commitment to parts supply even if the machine were 30 plus year old.Final drive parts ,clutches etc. I am not so sure about Deere though ,any input here ,can they supply older machine parts as well as Cat can ?