Happy New Year fellow HeavyEquipment Members! First things first! Serial #CAT0299CJJSP00667 6,195.0hrs I had a new cylinder head gasket replacement/repair done by the local CAT dealer in Februar of 2019. I asked to look it over and take care of things which stand out and replace them at that point, rather than do the least necessary and then have to bring it back again. I am 60 miles away from the next town, where the closest (and only) CAT dealer/repair is located. $12,000 later, I got the machine back and was quite happy all summer, running my mulcher, some bucket work and occasionally moving things with my forks. Over all, I spent about 40hrs running the machine in 2020. Now - I needed to do some snow clearing last week and plugged my engine block heater in over night, started it up the next day and ran it for about 30-40min to let the hydraulic oil come up on temp as well. As soon as I started moving the machine, the engine coolant temperature started to go hot. If I would stop moving and let it run on idle, it would every so slowly come back down. I had the beep, the yellow exclamation mark, come on. I shut it down and let it cool off. Went into maintenance mode on the display to look at the temperatures, it got up to 224°F before I shut it down. Also - I have absolutely NO CAB HEAT! Ice cold air, fan is going strong. But no matter what, I can’t get any temperature out of any of the air fins. I did not run the heat since I got the machine back, until now. SO! I drove to town to talk to the dealer, they have no suggestions, other than bring it all the way to town and pay a ton of money on something what was just repaired. (just a a tiny lit frustrated - Sorry) My buddy suggested a valve, a heater valve, which might have been forgotten to be turned back on when doing the work. CAT dealer said they don’t touch them when doing any work on the machines. Problem is - I can’t find it to check myself! Radiator cap was replace in summer of 2018. Thermostat was replaced in summer of 2018. Water pump is on order (just in case). Water pump belt was lose, which I tightened, no change. No error codes! I searched through the (very expensive) maintenance manual, but no help there. PLEASE - ANY ideas or help is greatly appreciated. Thank you! ~Andreas
Did you check the coolant level.?
Hallo Nige, Yes, I did. coolant is visible in the little sight glass on the radiator and the overflow coolant reservoir is about one inch (give or take) above minimum level with the door open.
I hope they didn't fill it with water, at a Cat dealer, in Alaska. But that makes as much sense as anything. Heat is simple, hot water has to move to the heater core, and air has to go through the heater core. You have air moving, but you could have a blend door keeping the moving air from the heater, not sure how that is set up. Track the heater hoses with the engine cold/warm to see where they go, and if there's any valve visible on the engine, could still be one near the heater core. The with the engine hot, the hoses should both be hot, simple right? With the engine as hot as you dare, and 220 won't hurt a thing if it's full of coolant and you're using it lightly, check the temperature of the thermostat housing going to the radiator and the water pump inlet coming back from the radiator. Post those temps and we'll have a better shot at guessing what's going on. If it's full of coolant, not pure water/ice, then the water pump falling apart is the next best guess, the temps will tell the story.
I agree - simple physics! But yet, I find myself freezing inside while the engine goes hot if I would let her. I can’t really run the loader, since it only takes 30sec to one minute while moving/operating to go hot. Coolant is a good red color, so I assume coolant was mixed/added properly. But I will check on coolant mixture. I had it running today and believe the thermostat was slowly opening around 123°F... the return hose took some time before becoming warm. It got warmer/hot after I shot it down. But I won’t have hard numbers until I get my hands on a laser temp gun. Thank you Delmer for your input/suggestions!
You already have the water pump on the way, so not much to do but wait.
Perhaps I was hoping that someone here would exclude the water pump from being the cause for the symptoms and save myself $350.00 plus the work... But I guess it seems a possibility...
I don't know how cold it was when you were overheating this thing, if it was above 20 then you can tell the coolant concentration close enough between your fingers, so that eliminates the heater core and radiator being frozen up. Nothing in the heater valve, core or anything else to do with the heater will cause the engine overheat, so ignore the heater issues. For the engine to be full of the correct coolant and overheat in temps near freezing, either the air is blocked nearly completely, or the coolant flow is blocked nearly completely. If the coolant was flowing through that radiator with no air flow, then the return hose would be hot, the fact that it heated up after you shut it off means there wasn't much coolant circulation considering the temp. If the thermostat failed closed, you'd have excellent heat. It almost has to be the water pump, or a shop rag in a bad place, or more than one problem at the same time. Like a heater valve closed, and a failed thermostat or temp sender. The temperatures will tell all, or enough anyway.
I am no mechanic, but I don't see how it could be anything but that. Thermostat works, heat in the cab does not work. The machine overheats in a minute. It appears its not moving any coolant. Assuming the belt isn't glazed so smooth that the belt is slipping on the pully, which I am sure you would notice, the shaft must be sheared off in the pump or something similar.
Just thinking out loud, there couldn't have been some air trapped in the heater core that's moved now that you've started using the heat? It could be just as simple as bleeding the cooling system again. Worth a shot, anyway.
I hope air isn’t the issue, especially since it has been working flawless all summer. If it were the water pump, I would be happy and call it fixed. I will keep the post up to date and come back with the final result, something I find missing on most post on all kind of trouble shooting forums.
Like mentioned, I actually hope now that it is as simple as the water pump (fingers crossed)!
I’m going to suggest that you loosen the hose that connects the thermostat housing and the radiator at its highest point and see if you get any air at all out of it. TBH it won’t be the first time a remote coolant reservoir level has been at the full mark but the system itself has been basically empty. Did you confirm temps with a non-contact thermometer just to be sure.? I still have my fingers crossed that it’s the water pump though.
I will get my hands on a non-contact temperature gun tomorrow, Saturday. And I can certainly test the ‘loosen hose’. What would be odd, since it was working perfect all summer. And ‘Yes’, fingers crossed it is just a simple water pump issue. That would be nice. Thank you Nige!
That does sound very plausible to be honest. I did not touch the cab heat until now (last week). Only thing is, I would like to give CAT dealer mechanic the benefit of the doubt to not make such basic mistake. I spoke with the mechanic when I picked up the machine and he was very thorough and took the time to talk with me about all the things he did. I left the machine at the shop for the entire winter. So there was literally no rush on working on it.
Thorough or not, we all miss things at times, or sometimes things take us by surprise. For the sake of a simple bleed of the cooling system to eliminate the possibility, it could save you spending money on what may be unnecessary parts.
Just FYI, thermostats do not open at 123 degrees. They open very near operating temperature, that is, 140, 160, 180, 195, etc. give or take I believe less than 5% Yeah, I can see how the heater core could drain out and then trap air when the engine was refilled with coolant. Still seems like a reach, but an air bubble pushed out of the heater core and trapped below the thermostat might be possible. I've made it a habit for decades on any thermostat without an air bleeder manufactured into it , to drill about an 1/8" hole in the disk to eliminate the possibility of air lock. The Deere engines back in the day would do that, and without water to heat the wax pellet in the thermostat, would overheat without the thermostat opening. Ask me how I know, lol
Here is what I did... Put the screen in maintenance mode, Service mode 5 (don’t know for sure now) sub ‘page’ 1, which shows coolant temperature in °F; Started it (showing 75°F) up after being plugged in for about 1hrs, went to the back and watched the temperature while holding/touching the large hose from the thermostat housing to the radiator and the large hose coming back from the engine (I assume) to the water pump/thermostat housing; At around 124°, I believe I felt a noticeable increase in temperature in the large hose coming from the water pump/thermostat to the radiator; Touching the thermostat housing seemed to confirm the increase in temperature; There was definitely a very noticeable increase in temperature right around 180’ish °F; As soon as I get my hands on a infrared/laser thermo gun, I will do more testing with more accurate numbers; I do like the thought about the small hole, but believe that it might have one from the factory. Not sure though; From everything I have read so far, trapped air and/or water pump seem to be the suspects... I will try to make some headway tomorrow or Sunday... and will report back!
UPDATE! It‘s just after 1300 AK time and we have made some progress! With the help of my very savvy heavy equipment buddy, one issue was solved. To my own embarrassment. Turned out that the hose clamp on the large hose, going from the thermostat housing to the radiator, was ever so slight loose and allowed to drain the radiator pretty much dry. To my defense, Today was the first time I actually saw red snow underneath the skid steer, which there was none before, and the sight glass was showing red coolant. Just turned out to be residue rather than actual fluid level. Coolant is now @ correct level and has been tested to -45°F. Also topped off the coolant overflow reservoir. We refilled the radiator and temperature tested, including running the service screen on the display. Temperature came up to 155°F and stayed there pretty much for the 20min running. Outside temperature has increased quite a bit, we have pretty comfy 28°F outside right now. We left the engine running with the radiator cap off until about 125°F, then closed it. CAB HEAT - NO! Still ice cold and following the (roughly 1“) from the thermostat housing to the front, the temperature is about mid 70‘s and becomes mid 30‘s really quick, just about where it runs across the front of the engine towards the right side and down towards the bottom. So...?! Any bleeding necessary? Any valves under there somewhere? Could it be a bad temperature control switch in the cab? I have not changed the water pump because of the constant temperature - But could it still be?!
You got a Serial Number.? That machine will have either an electrical or mechanical valve in the heater circuit. Both types are known to fail.
Yes, as mentioned in my first post... Serial #CAT0299CJJSP00667 Do you have a location for the mechanical valve?
Sorry, never went back to look. You have the electrical-type valve, latest Part Number 480-8589. You probably have the former P/N 328-3317 or the even older 266-2432. The valve has been updated a few times. The valve actuator is the weak point. It's #8 below, buried deep next to the heater core. Have fun.........
No idea about in AK, but a new one shows as $215 on my system.
Did you raise the cover above the radiator to raise the radiator perfectly level to be able to check the Rad level with the cap off. Some folks have been fooled by those sight glasses. Those Cat caps are near the back and a bit of a job to get off some times. Just in case it was missed. Have worked a lot on Cat skid steers and am looking for the solution to this for my archives. Simon
As a matter of fact, I have not. And that was the reason why I didn‘t catch it! The residue in the sight glass was enough to ‚pretend‘ there is a visible level. And I fell for it. The radiator was completely empty, or 2 gallons worth low, give or take.
Nige, from what I can tell (see picture above), I have indeed the valve (P/N 328-3317 ) installed! We did crack the line to the valve to verify whether there is fluid in it or just air, which would prevent the flow to the heater core, but that checked out. Would you and/or someone else agree that the valve has a very high degree of confidence to be the issue?! I don‘t mind ordering it, but if there are strong opinions of something else to be the issue, I would go that route first. Last question! Any chance to test the potentiometer of the temperature selector knob in the cab? We pulled the three wire plug from the valve body, but since we can‘t be in the cab and measuring at the plug end, AND we didn‘t know what we would be looking for, we abandoned that thought. Thank you all so far, and I will keep the progress posted. Overheating - Solved! Cause - No coolant in the radiator due to small leak on coolant hose coming from the thermostat/water pump housing. I just ran the machine for a solid hour with the coolant temperature being steady around 188°F, dropping to low 170‘s when only running on idle.
Thanks for replying back. I can put it into my archives now. I have seen this a few times before. Simon
Simon, May I ask a follow-up question? Are there any resources (www, YouTube, etc.) you know of, which would show a more in-detail process of changing out the heater control valve on this type of machine? I have been looking all over and believe it to be pretty straight forward, although I have a chance of catching a ride for the skid steer to go to town, 60 miles away, and pay big money for it being done by a professional. Thank you, Andreas
It doesn't look too bad, you could get close enough to take a picture of it at least If it was mine, I'd at least try to turn it to cold and back to hot several times to see if you get any action out of it. You could try removing the actuator from the valve and freeing it up. Once you mess around a little, sounds like you'll be happy to get the new one and be done if you can.
Nige, since I have the P/N328-3317, is it save to assume that getting P/N 480-8589 would be an upgrade, or just for a different model of machine? Thank you, Andreas
Even if you ask your dealer for 328-3317 you will automatically be given 480-8589. 328-3317 is now what's referred to as "cancelled & replaced by" 480-8589. 328-3317 (& the even older P/N 266-2432) are used across a wide range of compact machine models. The same Part Number upgrade applies to all of them. See below.
Thank you Nige! I can’t wait to hear what the part will cost, compared to the lower 48
Something to also be aware of is the anti freeze strength. too week and it will turn to snow, and plug up in the fine heater core. Too strong and it gels up. also plugging up the fine ports of the heater core. I have had this happen more than once, on different vehicles. In Manitoba it is not unusual to get minus 35. I use a refractometer to test antifreeze strength. I usually try to get it around minus 40. but I am bad for pouring pure antifreeze into a system.. That is how I know it will also gel up. It usually does not bother the engine, as a radiator has larger holes through the rad as opposed to a heater core. I grew up in Saskatchewan and the coldest I experiences was minus 45.. but not a breath of wind. you could not talk outside without a scarf, as it was like you were at a dentist after some freezing.
In answer to your question I dont know of any Sequence for the repair. I always start on any heating problem with a physical check of the rad with the cap off. Then I make sure if the machine has an in and out of coolant to the engine block shutoff valves that they are fully open. Turn the control to full heat and see if heat is coming to the heater core . On most you have to Raise the Cab Up to get under. On some you can put a 5/8 hose joiner on the hose to the heater core before the temperature valve and hook a small piece of hose to go to the heater inlet. This will bypass the heater valve tll you get a new one. First though see if the heater valve is just a little stuck and needing to be freed up. If heat starts pouring through after that plan for a new valve or leave bypassed for the winter. There is lots of choices. Hope that helps. Simon
Simon, I/we did think about bypassing the valve, it would have been definitely good for the winter that way. But the local CAT dealer happen to have the part and I might as well. I guess draining all the coolant is my biggest ‚question‘ - AND, we found that there is a coolant leak which is quite substantial, and we have not found yet, where it is! This is painful to keep the post up-to-date. I feel rather incompetent, instead of making head-way on this issue. But I am determined! Last thing to mention: I have learned that this machine had at some point a WEBASTO heater installed and it makes me wonder whether that has something to do with the cab heat not working at all. As a matter of fact, I have not until this winter, every even tried to use heat. So it makes me wonder how long... Again - Thank you!
toomanymachines! We did refill the coolant and tested it to -45°F. What you wrote, fills in the questions my buddy and I just had when we casually chatted about the necessity of expensive CAT coolant versus non-brand, much cheaper.
P/N 480-8589 ordered! USD$210.00
TBH I’d use Cat premixed ELC or something like Peak Final Charge NOAT which is basically the same thing. You should be able to get the Peak product at any motor spares supply house. Make sure you get the “nitrited” product which is designed for off-highway equipment.
Thank you for that info Nige!!
Google “Old World Industries”. They make the product that goes in the Cat-branded ELC containers.
Put a rad pressuizer gauge on the top of the rad on a cold morning. Pump it up to about 10 PSI or whatever is on the rad cap and start checking for leaks. When cold it usually leaks best. Check around top of rad cap and by sight glass or anywhere small hoses are attached. Also check the hoses going under to the heater core. hope you find it. Simon
Simon, This sounds like the best way to fo after it! I still don‘t have the valve, which I need to drive to town for (2hrs round trip). But I will pick up one of those radiator pressure gauges for sure. I don’t like the guessing game of where it could leak. I know it leaks! Hopefully I will get this done soon!!! Thank you!
Nige or Simon! I finally got my hands on a coolant pressure test kit (not as easy as I thought up here in AK). Thanks to Simon‘s post... 10psi! You are the man!!! I also got the new restriction valve in hands. Thanks, and hopefully I can put this to rest quick...
Has worked for me many a times on the job. Look forward to my next trip to homer Alaska, went in 2009 for 17 days. Was great.
No reason why you can’t pressurize it to 15psi for a short time if you’re looking for a leak and having difficulty finding it.
FINAL FIX! First - THANK YOU to everyone who made comments and helped in the process! Whenever I research something, very rarely people post the final conclusion or the reason for what they had trouble with. I won‘t do that! Problem - Engine overheating! Cause - radiator drained almost empty due to a leak at the heater control valve (underneath the cab) Solution - refill coolant! Problem - NO heat in cab! Cause - bad heater control valve Solution - replaced valve! Short summary of events: After using my skidsteer for about 25-30hrs this summer after having a head gasket replaced from the local CAT dealer, I parked it in perfect working condition. And I did not use cab heat at all. When trying to run it with heat this winter, both of above problems occurred. Refilling solved the overheating, but a slow drain of coolant and the lack of any heat sustained. By doing a pressure test of the coolant system, I pretty quickly found the puddle of coolant underneath the cab in the very front. The actual part what leaked, was the valve body at the part where the black plastic connects to the heater core brass/copper part (not sure what material it is). Comments: The heater control valve is TERRIBLE in the way how it connects and how flimsy it is. We were unable to actually install the two bolts which hold the control valve body firm in place. After one hour, we gave up on it due to being very cold and just let it sit in there unsecured. Fingers crossed!
I thought it might be worth to mention, but my radiator cap has 13lbs printed on it. I assume that translates to 13psi? Or is there a conversion needed?!
No, it means 13psi. But for the purposes of a test you can actually pressurize the system to more than the working pressure. If the system is in good condition the spring in the cap should be the first thing to lift and relieve pressure.