First off, this thread probably doesn't belong here. Apologies. Also have it posted in the Agricultural section but haven't had a response so I thought it might be ok to bring it to the attention of others with some experience. Have a ** 135 and when I went to start it for the first time this Summer, she won't run. Some details if needed: Believe in the 70's model range. Perkins 3 cylinder diesel. Never treated that well, but really abused either. Everything leaks and catches dust, but fluids are kept up. Pretty much only used to mow the fields when needed. Until yesterday it always cranked and ran on like the third turn regardless of temperature. Rrr, rrr, fire and run. Go out yesterday, cranks fine, battery spins the engine fast, but won't run. Fuel is good too. I changed the fuel filters as it was needed anyway. Start priming and have gotten fuel to the pump inlet. I take the line out and visually verify. Then I take the line loose on the injector pump going to the front cylinder and turn the engine over. No fuel coming out. Checked another line too. Does this confirm an injector pump problem? "Stuck" in some manner? Or "Screwed" in some other manner? Thanks.
If I recall those have a fuel shutoff solenoid on the side of the pump, a picture of the pump would help.
Manual Shutoff.
Sorry, I skimmed the post, was thinking of a different style pump. Yes you should have fuel when cranking, However: -I would loosen all the delivery lines, and pump the hand primer till fuel came out to prime the pump. -Fuel will not come out if the lever is in the fuel off position.
Flick that shut off back and forth several times, and crank it a few seconds to see if you get any fuel movement. Bleed the two screws above the cav label first. If you don't get any fuel out, I think the shut off valve inside is stuck, keep flicking that lever back and forth, leave it on/forward and rap the pump with a screwdriver handle.
Your initial thought is probably correct.. it’s stuck.. But just incase.. loosen the 5/16 bleeder by the pump name plate and crank it u get fuel streaming out and retighten.. Take the steel lines off the pump.. Pull the throttle wide open.. MAKE SURE the shut off is in the run position and crank till u get fuel spitting out of the pump connectors. DON’T burn up the starter.!! A couple of 10 seconds on the starter will do.. if it’s not spitting fuel by then, stop.. If u need instructions on how to pull the pump, lemme know.. It’s faster if u contact me directly.. Just click on my screen name for contact info.. Good luck
Update: I did everything suggested and got no fuel out of the 3 ports exiting the pump. Fuel to pump from filters= Confirmed Fuel out of bleed screw. Shooting about 3 feet when starter bumped= Confirmed Cranked it with run/kill rod in the run position, injector lines disconnected, supply from filters connected to the injection pump on & bled, and fuel lever pulled down at full throttle. No fuel out of pump. Tapped pump while cranking. No fuel. Worked run/kill rod multiple times. No Fuel. FYI that back top injector line connection off the pump is a b!tch. (Post pictures if interested.) Thanks for all the information and suggestions. Very much appreciated. JC in NC.
Some pictures of my Massey Ferguson 135 CAV injector pump. Mainly the aggravating top back connection going from the pump to the injector. No swing room for any wrench. Or any wrench that I have. That line below will not move to the left. And you can't get the line pushed up due to this. So those are my complaints for today.
Pump sounds like it needs to be pulled as the shut off is stuck, Personal message pump shop guy he will give your directions on how to pull the pump. Good luck.
Once u remove the inlet line, you’ll be able to remove the back inj. line.
Sounds like your metering valve is stuck it happened to my MF240 pulled the top off and freed it up
True.. u can find out how to free a stuck mv on utube.. You’ll probably need a new top cover gasket if that was the problem and it starts pumping fuel after it’s freed up.. U can buy a mini kit on Amazon or eBay that has all the orings and gaskets to reseal just the top cover. It costs between 9 & 12.00 w free shipping.. There ARE some pit falls to removing the top cover, so do your research, particularly the spring position.. Good luck
As pumpguy said if you are not mechanically inclined I would not try it Utube has some videos on it
Thanks all. I think I will take it as far as removing the top cover, cleaning up the mechanism parts accessible there, and see if that helps. If not, then a pumpguy rebuild sounds in order. Any recommendations for a "good" top gasket and o-ring kit? Thanks again. JCinNC
Update if interested. Ordered a basic kit from the big A. Took the top off and found it pretty dirty. Cleaned it up and put it back together. Run/Stop rod won't move after reassembly. Musta' got the linkage screwy somehow. Take apart....again. lol.
Wow, that’s was goobed up.. It wouldn’t surprise me if the pumping plungers were stuck.. (Deep in the pump)
Did you look up how to free up the metering valve?
Agreed. I am going to be shocked if it runs.
Yes sir. I carefully took the pieces out and apart that are visible, cleaned, and reassembled. Including the metering valve. Have what appears to be good free movement of top components now whereas before stiffer and catchy from the gunk.
Put it all back together with free movement of the run/stop rod, no leaks, primed to bleeder on pump, (shoots diesel when engine bumped) but no diesel out of pump going to injectors. Hate, hate, hate troubleshooting incorrectly. Everything looks like pump needing to be torn down to me. Messaging pumpguy for removal directions for rebuild. Thanks all for following and input. JCinNC.
A follow up if interested.... (i can't stand when someone doesn't finish their story and disappears....) I got the injector pump rebuilt, put on, bled everything, and it fired up. Still will crank and run normally. So it appears the injector pump was one of the problems. One? you ask? Well yeah. The tractor (MF135) kind of skips. Symptoms I've noticed. 1) Kind of skips. 2) No abnormal smoke to mention. A little under load it blackens a little but most of the time it's almost clear coming out of the pipe when RPM's are leveled off and not under load. 3) The hand throttle does not have the fast response as before. Pull it rich quick and it takes a few seconds to respond to full RPM. Before, it was almost instant. 1 to 2 seconds tops. 4) I could swear I see diesel seeping out at the front exhaust manifold connection. Any ideas to get the skip out of my diesel? Thanks for all responses. JCinNC
Simplest explanation is that the timing is off. Possibly the pressure control valve thingy in the inlet is messed up. Did Thepumpguy rebuild your pump for you? and did he give you directions for re installing it?
Did u set the timing to “0”.?? U shoulda sent the injectors .. I can tell u with a straight face, it’s not the pump.. it has a brand new head and rotor installed..
I do not believe it to be a pump issue. Tractor would not run at all and now it does. Only thing that was changed is the pump was rebuilt. So that solved the not running at all issue and therefore it would seem that the pump was/is done correctly and functioning correctly. Timing? To my knowledge it's correct. Question is do I have any knowledge. lol. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I did NOT go through a process of "setting it to zero". History of events so you can tell me where I made a mistake and how to correct. -The block mark was matched to the pump housing mark before it was removed. I didn't move it to match it, it has always been lined up. It always cranked and ran smoothly within 2 to 3 seconds in this position. Even in winter. -Battery cables taken off the tractor. -Pump removed carefully so nothing internally moved. I made sure. The internal mount/gear did not move. -Pump rebuilt. -Pump installed in exact same position with block mark and pump housing mark aligning. No wiggling around to get it in or match the "key" on the drive gear. Straight in, bolt it up. -Bled system. -Tractor cranks almost instantly as before, just has this skip that has never been there. Thanks for reading and all input. JCinNC.
Are the "block mark and pump housing mark" the marks shown in the picture in post #3? This has a key in the driveshaft? so it would be on or 360 out of time. Maybe remove the return line and blow through it to make sure you don't have bugs plugging it up while it's been off? Double check all the fuel supply, valves open all the way, squirting a good bit of fuel with the transfer pump, or cranking.
I’m not sure what I mean by black marks.?? There’s a line on the pump and one on the block.. match’m up.. It pump is adjustable, sometimes gear “lash” or wear is a factor and the pump needs to move off the line on the block..to compensate for the “lash”.. But I’d sooner believe it’s injectors.. & besides, it’s a 3 cylinder .. it’s always going to have an off-beat..
One thing that might work to narrow it down to a cylinder.. Get it “skipping” and loosen each line, 1 at a time to see when the ship goes away..or matches the beat of the opened injector..
BLOCK mark.
Hey Delmer, on my end it looks like I typed b-l-o-c-k. But my eyes aren't what they used to be. I'm familiar with "180 out" but not 360. Would it even run if 360 out? It cranks and runs in about 2 seconds of turnover with the starter. It DOES labor if the throttle lever isn't enriched a little bit. But I'm assuming that can be an idle screw adjustment on the pump.
Thanks. The line on the pump and block were aligned before pump removal. They are aligned in the same position after pump install. Engine ran well last year in this position. Maybe pump and engine kind of wore together to work together well in their worn state? Pump appears adjustable. In other words, "ovaled" bolt mounts for slight pump rotation to make the fuel rich or lean. Which way to rotate to make richer or leaner? My experience is that when this 3 cylinder is right, it does not have an off-beat. Have a Ford 345D and when it is right, I can agree that this 3 cylinder (Ford 345D) does have an off beat. Might try this. It is such a b!tch to get to these injectors to do this test though. (Maybe I'm just complainy.) Anyone have a special trick to make it simpler? Again, thanks for all replies. Really appreciated.
How about loosening them at the pump end of the injector line?
Just tie back the engine cover, so it won’t keep falling on ur head.. Swing the battery tray outta the way..& tie if necessary.. Get it running and just crack the injector line .. wrap it in a shop towel if’n u don’t like to get wet..
The movement of the pump adjusts the pump to engine timing.. Look at the arrow on the name plate.. THATS the pump rotation.. To ADVANCE the timing, u would turn it AGAINST the rotation..(opposite the arrow) BUT.. ONLY GO 1* MAX.!! If your WHITE SMOKING, that means the pump timing is RETARDED and needs to be Advanced (opposite arrow) Black smoke means your to far advanced and needs to be retarded OR I mighta turned the fuel up a little.. wink, wink..
I did the screenshot at 11 minutes 33 seconds. Video edited out at member's request.
The new spec sheets no longer carry the letter designation.. I will have to go to my build sheet to see weather or not it has 1..
The oval holes is how you fine tune the timing, like pumpguy is telling you. 360 and 180 off are the same thing, injection pump timing off 180 is the same as 360 degrees on the crankshaft, that's why you turn the pump tiny amounts when adjusting, and go past till it runs rough, then back the other way to establish the limits, then adjust around the middle to get the sweet spot. I don't think it's 180 off, it would not start immediately, or run smooth at all. the "skip" on a three cylinder can be as simple as the timing making the exhaust sound different, and one cylinder being closer to the exhaust outlet than the other two.
That Bundt Bear video should be taken down.!!! I’ve gotten so much work from folks watching that saying my pump ran fine other than leaks and now it won’t run at all after watching and following the B.Bear video. I almost feel like I need to send him some money for all the work I get from him.!! The pump can’t be 180* out.. it’s master keyed..
Another example of -- If it's on the internet it is true. NOT ! I reported the BS video to the mods and asked for it to be deleted.
I am not sure if this is the correct procedure but I am reaching out to " the PumpGuySC" for possible help with a Delphi 1291 injection pump issue on a post I made yesterday for 1996 JCB 214e backhoe. Diggerman1.
Hi Digger.. u found me.. If it’s easier, contact me at my home email.. & we can talk at length.. [email protected]
Welcome to HEF, Diggerman1 !
BEFORE u write me, PLEASE get the full model off the name plate on the pump.. Thanks
You know the Bundy video is good advice when he didn't bother cleaning the pump before filming the CAV reseal video.
I actually watched it.. & that’s saying something seeing I can’t watch but 3 minutes (max) of any “rebuild “ videos.. He leaves out SOOO MANY pitfalls that are VERY IMPORTANT when ur resealing a pump.. Like I said, I think I owe him a few dollars.?? Lol
Video of cold crank today. The linkage is moving correctly if wondering.
U obviously have a fuel blockage somewhere.. Your pump was FULL OF GARBAGE when I got it.. Check the inlet flow to the pump inlet.. And make sure the shut off is completely open.. U could hold the throttle wide open and push and pull the shut off rapidly a few times incase the metering valve is stuck..(again)
Thanks. I'll keep working it. I did change the filter & cleaned the fuel bowl thoroughly before it was sent for rebuild. Never really moved much fuel through the new filter though as I couldn't get it running. Who knows....might need to change it again. Stranger things have happened.
Took the fuel bowl off at the lift pump today and found this. Another piece to the puzzle. She still running a little rough though.
How big is it ? It looks like a gasket for a fuel can cap. The fuel tank should have a tube shaped strainer on the shut-off valve. It extends up into the tank.
Think that's what's left of a screen filter that goes in the top of the fuel bowl attached to the fuel lift pump.
Don't look like any filter screen that I've ever seen, think tinkerer is spot on, fuel tank/can cap gasket or the inside of fuel stabilizer/additive container cap. For fock sake people whenever you open a jug of anything whether fuel related or even washer fluid remove all the remnants of the seal completely or that crap will wind up in your tank..
I've seen some dandy's but that one is a trophy, most people have no clue that screen is in there. Good find. Bad Bob
That is what I also thought when I first saw it. But, it must be so dirty it looks solid.
Was “THAT” the fuel restriction.?? How’s it run now.??
Well, that had to be ONE of the fuel restrictions. After the video of it running with no throttle response. I went to move it the next Saturday and it would not run at all. So I dismantled this area of the fuel system, found this filter beat up and clogged, & just removed it. While I had it apart I hooked a piece of hose to the tank outlet and blew into it just in case there was some settling of sediment around that area. Didn't get much resistance and immediate bubbles heard in the tank. After that, it cranks and runs but still kind of has a skip that was not there. Planning on taking the tank off sometime soon and shaking any sediment I can find in there out. Thanks for all the responses and help.
So I mowed with the 135 for a couple of hours today. It still has what feels like a skip in it for lack of a better description. Found what looks like oil seepage coming out of the front manifold. Makes me wonder if I've got valve trouble...
What rpm r u mowing.?? Inorder to “fix it” u need to work the snot outta it.. for an hour at least.. Hopefully it’ll burn off the carbon and let things seal..
Around 1600-1700 RPM for 2-3 hours several times. But as I'm sure ya'll know, bush hogging doesn't put the load on as much as plowing.
Did u fix your starvation problem.?? Without looking it up, did u send your injectors in.?? It’s a long shot but with the miss u have, it could b the spray pattern in the injectors AND be an excuse for the wet exhaust..fuel puddling instead of burning.??
I am having the same issue as the OP. Same pump. 1975 Ford backhoe 3550 Serial C429973 Unit 5E29B Model K5011F I had fuel to the Cav pump inlet on the back of the pump. I removed the line to verify incoming fuel. I have no fuel to the first injector. I removed the inlet fitting to check the screen that I thought would be there - according to a diagram I had. All I saw was the top of a spring. I lifted the spring out. Everything looked clean. I put the spring back in and reinstalled the incoming line. Is there anything I could have messed up so far? With everything hooked up, I removed the bleeder screw out of the side of the pump. Fuel ran out. I didn't try to turn the tractor over. I have messed with the shut off lever. But not much. Tapped it with a wrench a few times. I'm going to disconnect the cable and wiggle it back and forth more. It last ran 3 weeks ago and started and shut off normally. I am suspecting air or the shut off. I haven't noticed any fuel leaks. I have a GM AC Delco lift pump EP158 8-9 psi. I was thinking of installing before the fuel filter to pressurize things to help see any fuel leaks. I was advised that might not be a good idea. Will it hurt anything to install the electric lift pump and try starting the Ford 3550? Will it hurt anything to install the electric lift pump to check for leaks and not try to start the machine? The earlier mentioned video was shared with me. I will put my trust here. 3 CYL INDUSTRIAL TRACTOR | New Holland Agriculture | MyCNH US Store www.mycnhstore.com
Google: CAV metering valve.. There should be a video on how to lift the top cover and free up a stuck mv..
Thanks. Do you have any thoughts on installing the lift pump to pressurize things a little as d check for leaks? Your search found a good tutorial on loosening up the metering valve on yesterday's tractors. Here is a write-up I made on another board. "I don't claim to be a pump man but my guess is the problem is your metering valve. On those CAV pumps it is rather common for them to get stuck in the off position. Here is a post with a picture I put up on another forum that explains how to free it up. It has helped many guys get their tractor started. "First of all CLEAN your pump and its surroundings. Pressure wash it then use brake cleaner. You do NOT want any dirt inside. Shut fuel off at the tank. Remove the throttle rod and shut off cable. Cut the wire that has the lead seal on it. Remove the two nuts that hold the top cover on the pump. There are washers under the nuts. Do not lose them or your cover will leak. Carefully lift the cover of the pump about 3/4". Do NOT overstretch or remove the spring that is attached under the cover. The photo below shows the pump backwards from what you will actually see. Note the slide bar #3. That will be right in front of you when you lift the cover. That slide bar operates the metering valve. See the red arrow. Metering valve has a very weak spring that should return it forward to run position. They get stuck in the off position. Free it up with a small screwdriver or popsicle stick - move it back and forth till it returns forward on it's own. Get the slide bar located properly - that can be tricky so use due care. Replace the cover. Replace the washers and nuts. Some say you will ruin the gasket under the cover when you do this. I have done this a half dozen times and gasket was always fine. Turn on the fuel and bleed the filter/s. Bleed the pump. Crack all 3 injector lines at the injectors, turn the engine with the starter and bleed them all simultaneously. Then retighten the injector lines . It should start then. Remember this pic is backwards. It really is Very simple to do so don't be scared of it. Let us know how it goes."
Let me ask you.. why are you worried about leaks if it won’t start.?? Once u get it running, any leaks will show up.. u don’t need to pressurize the pump.
It's been leaking for a few months. The leaks didn't show up yet. About a 3" spot on a piece of cardboard overnight. I thought it smelled like diesel. It drops to the floor about 3" on front of the Cav pump.
It might show up with your electric supply pump.. The problem with that pump is, once u plug 1 leak, another one shows up.. If one seal is hard and flat, they’re all hard and flat..
If the pump leaks, it will get a complete rebuild. Once you have it off to fix anything, there's no sense having a 1975 pump installed without having it gone through. The only seals between the electric pump and the Cav pump are the filter gaskets. Everything else is compression fittings.
Found out the electric pump I used has the same pressure rating às the mechanical lift pump on the back of the cav pump. 8-9 psi. I did find a couple minor leaks. I had to tighten the fuel filter just a tiny bit - we just changed it. I use the Baldwin fuel filter. I found out a while back, the Napa filters don't work on these. I had a guy service the machine for me and he used the Napa. Immediate issues. I also did not get the line to the cav pump tight enough, it was leaking a tiny bit also. I let the electric lift pump run constantly. Added another battery with jumpers and a booster charger that I flipped on for cranking. Got it cranking over a lot faster. Block heater plugged in and it finally popped off tonight. Never had to pull the top off the cav pump. I plan on eventually installing the electric lift pump and a relay to run it, permanently
FWIW.. the NAPA filter will work, but u HAVE TO Put the top oring UP IN the groove in the filter head.. NOT ON the filter.. I’m confused on your statement about the supply pump puts out 8-9 psi in the back of the CAV pump..?? R u talking about the old supply pump that runs off the engine cam/crank.?? Glad u got it running.. U might wanna run an injector cleaner thru the system.. And ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS push the shut off knob back in to the run position when shutting it down.. Don’t give it a chance to freeze the metering valve in the shut off position..
Oh boy, I may be in trouble! I have a 445A that is a project, outside under a tarp for over 5 years now. I know I left the cable pulled cuz it did not return on its own....darn!
No worries.. just go to the beginning of the thread, there’s enough pic and instructions for u to diagnose the problem.. But after 5 YEARS.. I would expect that the pumping plungers are frozen up..& that requires a tear down..& special tools..
I read in the Ford repair manual that the mechanical lift pump built into the back of the cav pump should put out 8-9 psi. I don't remember the number. I would imagine that could be measured by attaching a gauge at the Cav pump bleeder. I never read any further once I saw the pressure was the same as the electric pump I added ahead of the filter. The electric lift pump takes the load off the built in Cav pump. Which I'm sure wasn't designed for ULSD. I always stick the fuel filter seal up in the housing, no matter the brand of filter. That way, I can't forget to remove the old seal. I added some fresh diesel Clear diesel, bio killer and Hotshots. I also always try to remember to push the fuel shut off to the run position. For me, I was thinking, if there was a very minor leak, the fuel might leak out, instead of air leaking in. Thank you very much for your advice. It's much appreciated
LOL, it will most probably be over 6 by the time I get to it. I purchased the tractor for a retirement project. With the value of the dollar dropping so rapidly, I am still working, but plan on retiring in July. The tractor project has to get in line...The good news is if the pump is in fact all mucked up, I got a guy that can fix it.