What is the engineering here? I seem to see that a lot of SS manufacturers spec Motor Oil like 10-30 or 15-40 in the chain case. That seems like the WRONG choice! Motor oil used in an engine is formulated for a hot environment that is a lot different than what goes on inside the chain case. Plus the motor oil would have High Detergent in it that would keep all dirt in suspension. HD oil is usually used in conjunction with a full flow oil filter. Who wants all the dirt (and water) to stay mixed with the oil so it can wear the chains, bearings, and seals?? Seems to me some sort of AW Hydraulic oil like 32 or 46 (maybe even thicker like 68 or 100) that has Anti Wear and corrosion protection additives that are meant for a lower temp/ water intrusion environment would be a whole lot better choice. Not to mention the lack of HD additives will allow the dirt and water to settle out of the oil and stay in the low spots... What say ye??
I'd personally use an SAE30 or SAE50 TO-4 oil to be honest.......that's what Cat skidsteers use.
:notworthy No offense to anyone, dkmc or the Capt'n :notworthy But after spending 30+yrs wresting with these ugly things, I have found that some of these chain cases are happy to have any sort of lube in them at all! .....Dirt in suspension; Anti wear; Corrosion protection; 'Dirt & Water settle' - in a splash fed environment? Really, it's a chain case, in a skid steer, one of the most neglected places ever engineered by humankind. Put the engine oil in it & service it when due. People get paid alot of money to decide these things for us. Lets not re-invent the wheel....... .... rant over
No offense taken... But.....Those same "paid a lot of money" engineers also designed the Edsel and the Titanic..... My primary occupation is Machinist...my skidsteer will not go with a dry chain case I assure you. I am not asking =what= oil to use, I am asking =why= some brands spec motor oil because it seems like a poor choice. SAE 30 or 50...TO4 seems better.....given the high load and high friction environment. EDIT.......I just looked up the TO4 and that seems like a way better choice than motor oil.
LOL!...........Indeed
You'd be surprised just how long they will last - HeavyEquipmentForums
The reason is most shops keep engine oil in large quantities "drums" and a single fluid for all reservoirs makes life a little easier. As stated above the type of oil used doesn't make much difference so long as it has oil.
My thoughts are no matter what oil you use those chains are living an easy life compared to the chains on my motorcycles. Even when the chain box is half oil and half water it is better lubed than most chain drive motorcycles. I agree the TO-4 30 or 50 would be ideal. All that being said of all the chains I've had to replace on our 1845C Case I don't think wear from lubrication problems was ever a cause. Those AirBoss solid rubber tires we used for years due to operators abusing the standard tires and rims killed most of them. That and operators who think skid-steers are battering rams!
The Bobcat I have, S250, calls for hydro oil.
Its a low speed chain case in a skid steer. Do you know what the chain cases call for in our other pieces of equipment on the farm? used motor oil. That's worse than new motor oil. Like was said earlier, those chains will last a very long time. They fail from lack of oil not the wrong kind of oil. if you get dirt and water in there no type of oil will save you. We had ice chunks in one of our old SSL's chain cases, didn't phase it. In the case of the NH machines we used to run it was 10w30 for the entire machine, made things simple. Chain cases, hydraulic system, engine oil etc. Kept things very simple for the most neglected and abused piece of equipment ever engineered. We have an LS170 with over 10,000hrs on it. I doubt it got serviced regularily before my time but its still kicking along just fine.
Very true on the neglected and abused. I've often said guys use SSL's like they used the hand shovels before them. "When you're done with it drop it and walk away". If we had available a SSL back when I started working in the quarry doing clean up I would have washed and waxed it on my own time!
When should you change the oil??? Bought a skid with 2000hrs oil in chain drives is dirty but a assume it's not relly required to be changed??? Oil is pretty cheap but
Chain case oil should not be dirty. Some add their used engine oil to the chain case but I dont like the idea. It will lubricate adequately but like you say oil is cheap compared to hard parts. On a new to me machine I would do a complete service with flush and fill of all lubricants. Several of my skids see 1000hrs a year so they get the fluids changed once a year. Engine oil at least twice a year.
Cheers, i'll change the oil then. Engine and all filters changed when I bought it. Wasn't sure if chain case is like diffs, never really looked at.
TIP - THE most important oil to change on a skid steer is the hydraulic/transmission oil & filter - this is where the big dollars are. If you are wanting to spend money on oil, spend it there & then reuse the old hydraulic oil (whatever it is) in the chain cases.
That's a great tip and an economical way to use the oil from your hydraulic system in a place that is less sensative to dirt .It could be looked at as rotating your lubricants.You could then take what comes from your chain case and put it in your waste oil burner.
We don't have a need for waste oil burners here. Curious, so I'll ask, will they burn that grey looking custard (filled with water) that usually plops out of a chain case? :beatsme
No they wont. The oil burners that I am exposed to seem to be a little picky. The cleaner the used oil, the more reliable they are. Water is certainly not an option.
I'll tell you what......anybody that thinks you can use any old used oil in the chain case.....OR never change it.... They got another guess coming I think. I am right now working on my '82 Mustang 342 ....abused and neglected. Didn't have a gasket on the chain case cover. ***? Oil/water mix in the case. The chains don't look so bad, but ALL the tapered roller axle bearings are shot....pitted rollers and races. And let me assure you......changing the races in the axle tubes is a HUGE PITA........and way more costly/time consuming and miserable than -changing- the case oil, using good quality oil, and keeping the damn case buttoned up tight as possible. Which includes a new gasket on the cover. And as far as HD Motor oil, I would NOT want all that mud, metal particles and water in the bottom of the case circulating around in the oil. I will use mineral oil without HD so any of that crap will settle to the bottom and not get in the bearings. Change your OIL not your BEARINGS....use good new oil !!
The best thing to do is not aimlessly change fluids, send a sample out. The Hydo 10 in our SSLs is rated for 3000-6000hrs easily. You also have to remember that many SSL's leak enough fluid or have a hose blow in that amount of time so new oil gets put in anyways. It takes awhile for it to go bad unless you have a way of constantly contaminating it. Then I would worry about fixing that issue first. Chain case does not hold much, if it has moisture in it change it and find the moisture source. Otherwise 1000-2000hrs.
dkmc, I think motor oil is spec'd like other have said its readily available but also for the ad packs used. I would think the HD would be a huge benefit, keep the dirt in suspension rather than cling to the chain or case. The VI improvers to keep the weights in check. I guess emulsifiers could be different IF everyone would drain the water from their cases. Motor oil will creep to keep the chain lubed. It should contain all the RI, CI, OI, AW, and anti foam you would ever want. I agree that its not perfect but from what I can see its overkill on everything and thats not a bad thing.
Oil burners are extremely picky. No water and nothing heavier than 50w. This is for our boiler that uses compressed air to fire the injector. It's not a drip based system. The simple drip systems are less picky but less efficient.
Completely disagree.....other than the 'readily available' part. But the again, as long as motor oil is 'readily available' why not use it in everything?? Engine, trans, gearbox, heck even the radiator? They make different oils and fluids for good reason. The HD in motor oil is designed to keep the dirt in suspension so the FILTER in the system can catch the dirt and get it out of the system. With NO filter or pump in the system all the crap continuously makes its way thru the bearings and other parts and does it's part to wear all those things out -faster-.... Plus....some of the additives in motor oil are designed to work and give their benefits at -engine- temps....not the lower temps you'd have in a chain case. A chain case is not an engine crank case....
Well, blitz is in the lubricants business....but, you do have a good point, maybe it would be better to let things settle to the bottom of the case rather than be in suspension. Other than that, I'd go with blitz.
I'm not in the lubricants business, BUT I know which way I'm going based on my knowledge of how things work. If as you say, blitz is in the lubricants business, then it seems to me he should understand the use of HD oil in this application is not a good choice. In fact it's a poor choice. I'd think that people in the Skid Steer business that want to sell more chains and bearings (or keep their mechanics busier) would be telling all their customers they GOTTA use a HD oil in the chain case
I take it it's only Bobcat that specs hydro oil in the chain case? I see mention a few times of the chaincases not holding much oil? What is the usual amount? On my Bobcat S250 the chaincase holds right around 11 gallons.
5.5 gal in the Mustang 11 is a LOT!
Does the Mustang have a single central chaincase like the Bobcat, or 2 separate chaincases one each side of the machine..? If it does that could explain the difference because coincidentally 2 x 5.5 = 11.
One case in the middle....
The chain will stir the dirt particles back up off the bottom of the case anyways. We have 10,000 hrs on an LS170 running nothing but 10w30 with no issues. My FIL who has the same Mustang as you and had a bearing failure in the chain case had less than 3k on that machine. Your point about it being a chain case versus a crank case is a good point. You realize most chain cases used to be filled with used motor oil? Many are factory filled with 30w others 10w30 some 15w40 and others with gear lube. I think keeping oil in them and free of moisture is more important than anything. IIRC you said yours failed due to moisture due to lack of seals right? I doubt it's the oils fault specifically but could be wrong. The stuff inside a chain case can take a pretty good beating not many tight tolerance fragile components in there when compared to a hydro system or engine sump. If you want the best for your chain case set it up with a lubrimist system.
Yes I work for a lubricant manufacturer and have some knowledge of lubricants. You are right about the oil being filtered and taking the dirt that was in suspension out. BUT the way the detergents work they keep keep the dirt particles small and keep them from collecting together. The detergent will have a polarized head that attaches to "dirt" then have a tail to keep it from collecting on side walls, chains, and other dirt particles. Think of the detergent as a kind of sperm shape (graphic but its fitting) the polar heads of the detergent spermies latch on to the dirt, the tails keep it away from other things. Of course there is only so much detergent once it gets overloaded it wont keep any more in suspension. Without a detergent pack in the oil the dirt will collect onto itself and grow until you have some sizeable chunks that could do harm to the chain. It will also collect on the chain that it is supposed to be protecting. Dirt may be heavy enough to fall to the bottom but with the turbulence of a splash system its a guess at best. How often do you add oil to the chain case? Every time your adding oil your replenishing the all the adpacks including detergent. Correct me if Im wrong but you do lose oil from the chain case as a its the nature of the beast. Like you said engine systems have filters but their is no comparison to the clearances oil in an engine needs compared to a chain case. There might be a better type of oil but I cant see why motor oil wouldnt work better then most. Your absolutely wrong when you say "Plus....some of the additives in motor oil are designed to work and give their benefits at -engine- temps....not the lower temps you'd have in a chain case. A chain case is not an engine crank case...." I start my truck at -40*F pretty regularly. Engine oils have viscosity index improvers more for cold starts then the running temps of an engine. Take a 10w-30 oil for example, it is not a 10 weight / 30 weight oil, it can only have one viscosity weight. The "10W" actually stands for 10 WINTER, the first number is a designation for how cold it will get and still retain the properties of the designated viscosity grade. In this case a SAE 30 weight 70 -120 cst @ 40*C.
Fair enough....I think it is a least critical requirement. There are a variety of lubes that will probably work well for the application. I can't find any info (short of calling Mustang) as to what they did recommend for this machine in the chain case. My hydro system calls for AW46, I will use the same in the chain case. I will also ad magnets to the drain and fill plugs, just for the heck of it. Also: The outer axle bearings look like they hardly ever get any oil from the case. Because of that, I added grease fittings to the axle tubes so I can grease the outer bearings from time to time. I think these older machines were lacking in engineering, much has improved since 1983... blitz138: What type of grease would you recommend for the outer bearings? It's not a machine I will use 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.
The later manual for the 930/940/960 states the sae AW 46 as used for the hydraulic system should be used in the chaincase. I'm no expert but I think a calcium based grease would hold up well in that application. TRC 880 Crown and Chassis grease is some good stuff that stays put.
THANK YOU for the info!
My manual also call for AW46 in the chain case, which is handy because one of my drive motor seals leak a little. However, I use AW ISO 32/46/68 multi-vis hydraulic oil and it works well, particularly in very cold weather when I used to have problems with the brakes releasing.
Multi-vis sounds like a real good idea..... Do you have a brand name and number for it?
I guess that I will really throw a monkey wrench in the chain case discusion. I bought an 1845c case this year. It is a1996 .It has 2900 hrs and a very easy life but neglected.You see it was used in a chicken factory scooping up chicken waste . No one wanted to clean it or maintain it ,it had 3 inches of buildup on the floor plates. I honestly spent a week on and off pressure washing it. I did a front wheel bearing ,all oils and all filters ,repaint, decals, tires,ectIt took tw2 days to clean the junk out of the chain cases .I actually hooked up a small coolant pump and ran a flushing hose into the chain cases draining back into a large pan filled with deisel fuel where the collant pump was this resurculated for hours and I refreshed the deisel fuel many times.The machine looks good and runs perfect. SO NOW COMES WINTER ,its 9 degrees and I start up fine and my machine wont move. I look in the chain cases and there is about 1/2 inch of ice in the bottom of the chain cases.I thawed it out with a topedo heater.Edwin
The above reply got cut off by me.I meant to finish by saying that after thawing , I put 1/2 GALLON OF ANTI FREEZE in each chain case ..No more freezing and it seems to be very oily,it will have to stay this way until spring.Edwin
Edwin.....that thing looks fantastic!! NICE JOB! That's about where I'd like to end up with mine.....someday. You know.....its a lot of work. For some reason, I think Skid Steers seem to be the most restored piece of construction equipment out there. Seems like there are many people injecting lots of TLC into old machines. It's too bad you had ice in the chain case.......any idea how it got in there?? Rain leaked in or maybe just condensation?? I will wipe mine out best I can with paper towels, but I won't go so far as to hook up a pump! EDIT: You put antifreeze in with the oil?? I'm not sure that will work out so good...
It costs a tad more than single grade but I don't have to stock different weights. As far as brands go, there are too many to mention but almost all major oil companies formulate it. Take your pick: https://www.google.com/search?q=Mul...&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=
We use Chevron THF1000 as our Universal Tractor Hydraulic Fluid.
THF 1000 is formulated for machinery having a common sump for transmissions, final drives, hydraulic systems, etc. It's also over $20.00 more per 5 gallons than the multi-vis I use, which is about $10.00 more per 5 gallons than the straight grade. Maybe if you use a lot you get a better deal. I only keep 20 gallons on hand, and I don't have common sump equipment. Maybe I will when I move into the 21st century... I just looked up THF 1000 in my Chevron/Texaco Salesfax book and they don't include it in their hydraulic oil section, but instead under "Transmission And Torque Fluids".
Looking through my price sheet Chevron Rando HD MV is listed as their Multi Visc. fluid at just under $70/pail. Their straight AW32 is $15 less. I buy the THF1000 in bulk and its less than $10/gallon. I'm not saying its necessarily the proper fluid for the application either. All of our SSL's are under warranty and traded before they need changing so I just use the Cat stuff, we don't go through much at all and it eliminates one extra hassle if there were a warranty issue. I doubt our dealer would be a pain about it and I doubt our Chevron dealer wouldn't help out as well but I just figure its not hard to keep a couple pails of Cat fluids around.
dkmc your wanting to put grease in a oil application right? I would look for an aluminum or calcium sulfanate grease, NLGI grade 0. The 0 grease will give it a bit more mobility. Both the aluminum and calcium sulfanate greases will stand up to water well and more importantly are 100% reversible. Do not put a 5% moly grease in there, your bearings may have a tendency to slide instead of roll. Of course im going to recommend a Belray product, thats who I work for. http://www.belray.com/sites/default...purpose Extreme Pressure Grease with Moly.pdf
The 1845C needed 100# chains and never got them Mustang says for most of their machines AW46 is fine for the chaincase. On some they can use either AW46 -or- HD Motor Oil interchangeably.
1. 1845C top cover gaskets (4) leak letting the rain in, need to silicone the heck out of them AND Make sure the little O-ring is under the wingnut on the case covers AND that they aren't cracked. They're a little wierd but CAN be sealed up tight. 2. Make sure the brake pin "boots" are intact, water CAN get in here if the bellypan dirt is up to the level of the pins.