I put a chamber type septic system in last month for a customer,all went well and the chambers come in 5 foot sections and snap together and also allow some room to bend them in order to stay on contour when on a slope.This was my first one to install,I have allways used a stone system with 4 inch perforated pipe.Any other members use the chamber system ?
That's cool 25c. Does the system still use a septic tank?
]Was your system pressurized or gravity fed? They cut the required surface for the field area in half. Here are some photos of some installs
It still uses the septic tank & distribution box like the old gravity stone systems,just without the stone.
It was a gravity fed system optherockman.Dang! it looks like they had you working in pretty tight quarters on that septic job.From the pics it looks like it's overdug,then backfilled whith lime.Pretty cool job .I also see pvc pipe running though the center of the chambers,is your job a pressurized system? I install the chambers 2 feet deep and lay them on the dirt.We can install leach lines as close as 7 feet on center and they can be 100 feet long.On the job I posted we were able to keep the lines about 10 feet apart.Thanks for sharing & cool pics optherockman.
Chamber system They look like a Infiltrator type chamber. I have installed many of these systems. I used, to use them all the time, because I did away with the need for any hauling (rock)If I remember, there wasnt much difference in the cost of materials, chamber vs rock system. In my area, the chambers can be a 25% reduction (100ft rock lines, 75ft chamber system) I really dont have a preference, on either one (as which one is the best) I stopped using chambers (unless required) about 8 months ago. I cut down on my labor, because of workload. With the rock system, all I need is one guy on the ground. With the chambers, you really need two guys on the ground, because the bottom of the ditch, has to bee almost perfectly level and thats the PITB. Its all about profit and I can work one guy (takes me a bit longer) and install the rock system and make more profit What is the PVC pipe for, I never have seen that used, Ive used something similar in a rock system. It was called a dosing system. My question is: how does everyone install the rock systems. Batter boards, angle iron, sled??? This question probrably makes sense to installers only.
My question is: how does everyone install the rock systems. Batter boards, angle iron, sled??? This question probrably makes sense to installers only. That is odd. I do not uderstand what you are getting at.
Hi 25C, Super pictures, What is the grade you use for that system? % of slope.
Yes very good system I have some in for about 10 yrs. now they are 25% reduction in N.C. and there is another type EZ-Flow also 25% reduction bothwork real well just check your local inspection dept if you can use.
We have a choice around here. The infiltrators are ok but need at least 2 people to put in and I don't like covering them with anything heavier than a light skid steer. They are a lot stronger once the cover ground has settled.
looks good
system installation The question is, how does everyone install the standard rock system in the trenches? The 4" drain pipe has to be 6" off the bottom of the trench. The old way, was to install batter boards (1x4's on its side) with the top 6" from the bottom of the trench. Then you would secure the drain pipe to the top of the batter board and dump the rock, on top of it, with a 2" cover, over the top of the pipe. Now this was a PITB Now everyone in my area, uses what we call a sled. It is made of 5-6" PVC pipe, my is about 8ft long. The pulling end of the sled, has a bracket bolted to the PVC pipe, with a piece of flat metal (about 10" x 12") this is the sleding part of the device, it is 6" from the bottom of the plate, to the bottom of the inside of the PVC pipe. You start out, with the dead end of the sled resting on top of a 6" +- stick, This holds that end, at the correct height, you just install the drain pipe (in my case we use the black flexible pipe, with holes on the bottom. Put all the pipe together at the correct total length, put it in the working end of the sled and dump rock on top of the sled, the working end has a rope attached to itand you just pull the sled until its gets about 2ft from coming off the end off the rock, now dump rock on top of that and just keep going to the end. Im sure I have let stuff out, but I was just curious how everyone installed their regular rock systems
Our area feeds the trench from a distrubution box and into the end of the infiltrator. We are normally limited to 75' runs off the box. Originally we were allowed to backfill with approved septic sand but that isn't permitted in our as the sides of the infiltrator plugged up. Now we use 1.5" washed traprock up the sides and just over the top of unit. Trench is excavated level and depthe is kept at a minimum.
We always dug about 10' of ditch and dumped #3 rock in it. Then continued ditching pulling the bottom rock with you. The ditch man places pipe on this bed of rock and gets it held in place. We always just shovled some dirt on it here and there. Then the ditch man: lines up the loader and watches placement of rock. Smooth it out with shovel roll out the barrier material. Back fill. Done.
septic system Always willing to learn new tricks How do you know how thick the rock is, before you install the pipe? How do you level the pipe? We use a rake called a potato rake to level/spread the rock. I can only find them at Arig supply stores. We use the long tang and heavy duty rakes. They sell for about $50, but they out last the cheaper ones
Pics of this would be great!
We put alot of plastic chambers in. The leach fields are designed a little different here . We dont do trenches , the plans always call for a flat sand bed with 3 -7 long rows of chambers. We used to just cover them with sand , but the last 5 yrs we have had to cover the side vents with crushed stone , then fabric over stone , then cover entire system with sand . Then loam over and seed. Heres a pic of my son installing some a few weeks ago. These were small plastic chambers called "Bio 2's" . There were about 8 rows with 10 chambers in each row.
Some of our systems, envirocare installation YouTube - The Puraflo Peat Biofilter Wastewater Treatment System by Bord na Mona
Remember the Old hand i worked for had been around since the begining. Dicky Clay and tar- etc. He knew all the inspectors and made sure they were happy. That said we did quality work and cannot remember going back to a problem of our making in the 15 yrs i worked for him. We did step and overflow type systems. Hard line out of tank a few feet to about 2" below outlet level. Then drop down 10" and start ditching holding level as good as possible, checking regularly with level and grade pole, Then pulling bottom rock along with you. If you measure the teeth on your bucket you should find them at least 6" long. Mine are at 7" right now. Your laborer with a shovel will dress the gravel bed before he places the pipe, but the operator will determin how hard a laborer will have to work. A good operator will take most all the work out of it. At turn you step up 8" leaving un-disturbed soil to make the dam around the turn. Drop back down 10" and carry on. The out flow water will never back up to closer than 4" of outlet level. And will have to work 8" of water per ditch. We dug out some old systems that never used more than the first ditch there whole life. We used 10 tons of rock per 100'. When you go to get more bottom rock you put rock on the pipe you have laid, also when you do a corner turn you have to rock top and bottom with loader. You need a good laborer to keep up. we could do a 300' system in a day without to much trouble. I went to a certifacation class on time and passed with no problems using this knowledge. But that was about 20yrs ago.
It's the same 25 percent reduction when we use the chamber system in my area as well Willis.I agree,I think the chamber system requires more labor,and I also have the same story on the rock system,It takes a little bit longer to install but I do make more profit using the rock system and my jd 8875 skidloader loves to haul rock to the leech lines.
Thank's dozerdave,We run the leech line's dead level.This job was on a hillside with 4 leech lines so each line was at a different elevation .We use a distribution box to meter the water equally to each line.
Lol in alberta the old trench style has been banned for 10 years and U have to be a licenced installer to do the new systems now Are u ?? and do u have to have it designed and engineerd with soil analisis or is it usualy just the contractors choice I have to say that they are definately a way better system to install and maintain tho Good to see the picks
Hi Deeretime & welcome to the forum.I dont have a septic licence.A septic job in my area starts out with a soil test and the soil scientist determins the area & best type of leech system to use.We also have a county inspector that looks at the job and signs off on it.
Here in Alabama the most common system is 300 linear feet of conventional stone and pipe drainfield in a 36" trench, using infiltrator chambers you get a 40% reduction which comes out to 180 linear feet. I put them in by myself and do my whole system with a CAT 304C CR mini EX. I like using them because I don't need to have gravel hauled in, don't have to dig up nearly as much area, don't need another machine to move the gravel to my trenches, and a lot less labor. As long as your trench bottom is right, you just clip them together (Quick4) and put your end caps where needed. No more raking stone in a trench anymore.
Welcome to the forums Adv. Wastewater.:drinkup
Thank you CM1995... I see you are from Birmingham, what kind of work do you do?
i am very curious to know what the average cost of a basic septic system is in everyones areas... i would appreciate someone to post a new thread so we can share what the average system is, and cost of the system... for some reason this forum will not let me post a thread, only reply.
I know- old thread alert. Maybe it's just me, I can't understand how installing chambers is more work than rock and pipe. It's the opposite for me. While I'm digging the trench, my ground man is checking with the laser as we go- making sure we are perfectly level. When I'm finished digging a setting (reach of the hoe) he sets the chambers while I move ahead and start on the next setting. By the time I'm getting close to grade he's done installing those and is checking with the laser again. Smooth as silk! It is so much faster and easier than using rock and pipe for us- only two of us- and we don't get more reduction for chambers. It actually takes more footage than rock here. If we do use rock, we dig the entire trench level & to length, fill rock up to desired level throughout trench- checked with laser so pipe will lay level too. Lay pipe, cover with fabric & rock, backfill. I've also installed them myself, dug entire trench, spray paint marks on side of trench so I could see how much rock to dump in as I go. Prices probably range from 4-6K lately.
Of course, I gave up my license 12-10, just not enough work in my area, to depend on this. The State started a required license, in 08-09, that ends up costing about $1000-$1400 a year. We went from being about a month behind on our work, to almost no work. I think we did like 10 systems in 10. We were getting around $2500 for a basic system, 1000 gal tank, 3-50ft lines, 18" deep. At last- some of the other installers, went down to $2100, for this same system, so I let them have it, they can work for nothing if they want to. I really like the instructions, on how to use the sled, for rock. I couldnt have written it better. We started out with batter boards also, boy what a mess. My first system took me and 2 helpers, a week to do. Then I was introduced to a sled and I went home and built one that night, shortly after that, we were doing one a day Chamber systems, at one time I went to almost all chamber systems. Mostly it was because, it was cheaper, than for us to truck the rock in, we were doing a bunch of work out of our general area and farther away from the rock quarry. I have mixed emotions about the chamber system, it installs great in sandy, soft dirt-but try to level a trench bottom in a clay type soil (another story, another time) you have to bring in leveling dirt to get the trench bottoms almost perfect. The inspectors, in our area didnt like chambers and they were very picky about their inspections Chamber system is alot less, messy, no rock cleanup after the job. I did charge about $200-$300 more for the chamber system, they did cost more than the rock systems Mound/pump systems, no one asked about this, but they cost about $12,000.00 Drip systems, about $15,000.00 plus, plus a monthly monitoring fee Hope all this helps someone
Quit using chambers 2 yrs. ago, too expensive. Someone needs to show me a picture of a "sled"., never seen one up here. jr
Infiltrators got the accusations of getting filled up by rodent borowings, gophors, moles etc, it seems that maybe the problem was the hundreds of linear feet some localities required 450' for a four bedroomed house. Normal usage would not fill the capacity and the empty hundreds of feet made good gopher homes?
i need to see this sled. when i started installing septic systems in the early 90's, the backhoe dug the ditch ten carried the rock and dumped it in the ditch, the labor ME! would tell him how much, then while he went to get more rock i would get in the ditch and shovel the rock to each side of the ditch and make a v in the gravel. this would go for a 20-30 feet then i would start going back and clipping 10' sections of pipe together and raking the gravel back over the pipe. cover with straw or paper then off to the next on. now this was a lot of work and i always slept well. 330' is the average 3 bedroom system here. this would take a good hard long day to install. 8-10 hours now when we do gravel we take a skid with us. as dad digs i carry with the skid. when i dump the gravel in the ditch, i take the bucket and rake the gravel to each side with the bucket. THIS IS THE BEST IDEA I EVER HAD!!!! then i take a shovel or sometimes just my foot and level any little spots that need it as i lay the pipe. then get another bucket of gravel and sprinkle a little gravel to cover the pipe. then straw or paper over that. we can put these in about 5-7 hours. now we do a lot of chambers how they go in has been discussed, it takes us about 3-4 hours to install one of these systems. we get a 30% reduction for useing them here. i think they work alright, but would rather install gravel as i get a full days work out of them and i am just labor on these jobs. they do save quite a bit for us. my pay is around half, material is the same, and no wear and tear on a tracked skid. we did put in the gravel-less pipe for a while but the inspecters really hate them now, and i hated dragging those 20' sections of 10'' pipe up and down hills. when it came to installing one at my house i went rock all the way......i think they are the best, guess i am a little old school.
The graveless systems didn't work well around here, most failed in five to ten years. The county was pushing them real hard for a few years, now illegal to install. Once I get started the plumber starts setting pipe to grade, being held by pipe supports. Then i backfill either with the backhoe or skidsteer. The county is pretty good about inspections, we call when getting close to done and they will check right away. So usually are done in one day.
I have always done rock systems like lgammon started. I need to see this sled too- wanna understand how it works. Maybe I would be tempted to use rock more. There is a company here that has come up with some type of hanger thingy. They set them every 10' to carry the pipes. They are the correct height already- dig the trench, set the hangers, set pipes on hangers, fill trench with rock over pipe, pull hanger out and pipe stays at correct level.
Gravelless pipe was a total failure here too. The only soil they ever worked in was clay. If they were installed in sand- certain disaster. I saw some of my competitors' drainfields fail after 1 year!
come on guys we need pics of these sleds!
I'll second that !!!
Chamber is by far the most popular system in WV mainly due to 40% reduction over gravel trench or 10'' graveless pipe but my crew still puts a 2'' bed of 57's under and then 12'' up each cover with cloth and topsoil and the main thing is not to go to deep we never have more than 10'' of cover somtimes only 6'' to stay in good soil . Most oldtimers think deeper is better but this is slowly being proved wrong with each new failure
We don't put any rock under or cloth over. Here we have a max. bottom depth of 4'. We try to keep at least 1' of cover but the cold is more of an issue here too.
What Is a sled? Pics Please!
I'll only use infiltrators if I absolutely have to as I think they're way overated by far.They are so damn flimsy and the way they snap together leaves a lot to be desired.By me,you have to use 3/4''-1'' stone regardless,which I feel is only right because under the right circumstances you will have sink holes alongside them if you don't.I'm also a huge proponent of lots of stone anyway for any type system.If it's a postage stamp of a yard on a redo,I like using concrete tri-galleys or flo-diffusers with 11/2'' to 2 1/2'' stone both under and on the sides. For leach fields ,I simply get it close with my loader,rake,level some,set pipe,do my patented Wayney wiggle[no copying now--ha ha],readjust for fine tuning.I've seen all my buddy's gimmicks over the years like that sled thingy,X supports with rebars,etc.--nope,not for me,I'm old,old school--at 57 I can still do 230' per day,not going to change after 37 years.New septics by me average app. $10-$15K and can easily go to $70K with a 5' fill section with all the pricey fixins thrown in.
The sink holes are caused by not hand backfilling and footpacking the sides Almost no one does it but its a very important part to acheive strenght and its required by both ADS and INFILTRATOR to get about 10'' of granular soil foot packed up the sides and even though i somtimes use gravel when the costumer will pay for it both manufactures says it voids the warranty due to masking of the soil
No earth mover,the sink holes will develop if and when the chambers fill up with gray water because the soil won't perc for whatever reason and then when the water does drop it will suck the backfill[especially so if that backfill is sandy] through the louvers into the bottom of the chamber creating a small void which in time develops into a larger void.Stone,and plenty of it,covered with filter fabric is the correct way of installing these things and most county boards of health back me on this.Clean stone or another well graded aggregate has been used forever in septics all over the world for centuries and now just over the last 15-20 years we hear this BS about stone masking the soil.
i completly agree about the stone we do it any time we can but some inspectors here wont allow it just because its against manufactor instructions. Believe me i know the masking thing is a joke i have 6 test systems in with multiple trenchs and observation ports we normally put 2 trenchs with stone and 2 without then measure water depth in the trench twice a year the stone trenchs are always less but with this was known to industry they wont aknowledge it i think there afraid if states start requiring stone it will hurt there sales . One time we even took geofabric 9ft wide laid it in the bottom of the trench and up out each side put in the chamber then folded in over the top to compare silting in - 3 years later the one with the sock we created still had 12 '' of inside height the one installed to manu specs had 9'' - i never tried that again for fear that a biomat would form and seal the geofabric but it completly stopped the silting in prob and that system is now 5 years old and is still working as far as i know
I've said and always thought thisfor years that something is awful fishy with exactly the point you're making.It used to be by me that a 4'x8'x 18'' open bottom concrete flo-diffusor was equivalent to 50 lin.' of leach field.Then,when the infiltrator was ''born'',now 1 chamber was the equal of 50' and the diffusor got a ''rating'' of only it's actual length of 8' which is preposterous.Certainly makes one wonder if some hanky panky is at work.
our siezing is 60ft of chamber is equel to 100ft of 4'' pipe with gravel or 100ft 10''graveless which we never use without pulling the sock off and putting in 10''to12'' of gravel . im big on storage to help with the lady that does 10 loads of clothes every sat then the system rest all week backfilling with 57 on chambers adds about 3 gal per ft any way i have to go now sense i found HEF i dont get enough sleep im hooked i can bs about equipment all night whatever the brand i love em all