Around our remodels, we have a skid steer and have had a backhoe (big Ford) and a tractor with a grader blade. My 17 year old has taken an interest in becoming an operator. He plans to enroll in a union apprenticeship program. I am a little concerned however. He's a great test taker and smart kid. He will do well on the written. He aced his driver's written test. But his practical driving skill is marginal. He's not a natural driver and has had some close calls. Will this hurt him as an operator? In running my skid steer he does fine and I'd go as far as to say very good. He's careful around septic plumbing and other obstacles. I think he's a good operator. He's better than he is on roads. I certainly wouldn't want him behind the wheel of a tractor trailer. The other quality I notice is he is a precision over speed guy. If he sweeps a floor, it will be near spotless, but it'll take 3x longer than it would take me. Will this cost him? I've encouraged him to go into something like auto body where attention to minute detail is critical. But he likes heavy equipment. He also is decent at servicing the hydraulics. So he has that going for him. I'm hesitant to tell him what he should do for a living as he'll be happiest with what he loves. But I also want him to succeed. Will there be some kind of weed out during the "hands on" portion of the apprenticeship? Is speed critical? Does his not being a natural in driving an automobile mean he'll have trouble with machinery? Thanks in advance for any thoughts!
Quality first, speed second. It takes a lot of experience to be good and fast. Having the job how it's supposed to be is the most important part.
You may be able to teach a good man to be fast, but you can't teach a fast man to be good. Very few people retire with the same type of job they had when they started their career.
Any union apprenticeship program co-ordinater will determine if he will get into the program. If he does get in, his skills and the level of them will allow him to either to stay in the program or be ejected. It's not about speed. It is about efficiency. An operator doesn't have to be super fast. But he has to be productive enough to satisfy his employer. If anyone cannot do that they will have to find a different career. I guess I am one of the few Terex Herder mentioned. The first time I ran track loader was in 1962. 43 years later I parked a 450H JD dozer the day I retired.
Many years ago, when I had employees, I would not stand for a "cowboy" type attitude. You operate too fast or too forceful, you will break it and I will have to pay for the repairs. Heavy equipment is heavy in weight, that does not mean it is unbreakable. Everything has a limit. Every tool should be well cared for and used within the limits it is designed for. It means more to me to know the limits of a cylinder and never hit the stops than to bang the bucket on every pass without intention. By all means, efficiency is more important than speed so make every move count to keep a customer happy and keep the business profitable. I have a professional degree but sitting behind a desk was a slow death for me and I dreaded going to work every day to drive that wooden flat and perform high end mathematical functions. What is the quality of life if you do NOT enjoy what you do every day? One way or another, an opportunity dropped into my lap with heavy equipment and I ran with it. I was a kid again in the big sandbox with REAL Tonka toys! I've enjoyed most all of it but the financial instability until I got over the hump. Life is the best it has ever been after many, many years of hard work and sacrifice. This was the right path for me. It is not for every one. While I don't know a thing about union stuff, other than they are a pain in my butt on some jobs, the fact that he is interested in operating and THAT is a great thing. He's 17. I was not as safety conscious at 17 as I am now - I spent my free time at least doubling every speed limit sign on a motorcycle. Safety should come with maturity. If he has the attitude that, "what one man can do, so can another" then he will be successful. If you add fulfillment and enjoyment into that equation, he should be able to make a rewarding career out of it. If he is book smart as well, he might progress into self employment some day IF he has enough drive and passion to do as he pleases. More important than leading a youth into an occupational direction is teaching them how to work and not be a pussy when the going gets tough. Get the job done no matter how difficult it is if you are being paid to work. Bosses don't want prima donnas at the job site. Most of today's youth is weak and few have a desire to work. If they can be molded into great workers, they will always have employment and cash on hand. At 17, if he does well in the operator's union program but does not enjoy it, he will always have a fall-back occupation. It's more important to have alternate methods of occupation if the economy goes south. Experience in multiple occupations is a great thing to have in order to stay employed.
Characteristics of a good operator.?? One that checks the machine fluids before climbing into the seat.. U can’t b an operator if the engine blows up..+ it’ll probably impress the h outta the instructor... And if he’s in a class with more than just him, it’ll trickle down to the other students.. Can u just see it.. 8 young men pulling the dipstick on an engine.!!! what a beautiful site.!!!
Let him make his own mistakes and triumphs. What his interests are at 17 will likely have no relation to his interests at 21. Best you can do is to harass him into thinking about safety.
Thanks for the replies! Sounds like maybe I'm mistaken in my thinking that a pro jobsite is a race. He is what I observed to be pretty slow when we did rough backhoe work (trenching, digging out trees, septic, etc). However, when we did more finish type work requiring accurate depths and sloping drains, he did great (he is patient and attentive). He can learn just fine and his accuracy is great. He will likely never be a fast paced person. I just don't want him to waste a few years if his personality doesn't fit the work environment. Maybe he'll be fine.
Adapting to the job at hand and being efficient is what makes a good operator. I can't count how many times I've seen people who think they are good operator hop in a skid steer and try to show off how fast they are. Not smooth and getting buckled around. Do that for an 8 hour shift and they can probably barely walk at the end of the day. Your son is only 17, give him a chance before guessing what he's capable off. The fact he's interested is a huge bonus. A lot of 17 year olds have no idea what they want to do and aren't motivated to do much of anything anyways. They think everything should just be handed to them.
Isn't this the truth! He's worked side by side with me and his brothers with shovels in hand long enough to have learned hard work is a part of life. He will do well in work ethic. I'm proud of him for that! I told him to give it a try and enjoy it. Be glad if he succeeds. Be honest with himself if it doesn't seem to be his strength and not to be discouraged. There are a thousand good ways to make an honest living that hell enjoy and that he'll find one.
We were all slow and inefficient at one time. Speed comes with time in the seat. That he cares, and wants to learn is 90% of it. All of us oldtimers learned from old guys when we were pups. Now we are them. A young person that wants to learn? That's an old mans dream right there!!!
It takes me a year to make a turn key guy out of a 20 year old that wants to be good so that's roughly 2000 hours and that is just make him productive and profitable it will be 2 more years before he is a master at digging plubming and he does that 8 to 10 hours a day so do the math Speed comes with rythem more than anything If he wants to have a career as an operator he needs to learn more than just a skid steer true backhoe operators are a dying breed that's a great machine to master always have work if you can run a backhoe
He's 17. I quit high school then to move dirt and I didn't know my head from my ass. I loved the equipment just like him. Had my first Cat backhoe at 19. 31 now and still learning day to day but now I have a small fleet of paid off equipment. If he loves it stand behind him. Glad to see he has a father who pays attention cause I didn't.
I think you were smart to not waste time and to dive right in. I wish he could start now at 17 and finish school at his convenience. The union program hes interested in makes him wait to 18. I don't think he has the guts to try the self employed route (better in many ways). I like the training aspect of the union route. Never easier to be self taught than now though.
If he gets into the apprenticeship program the instructors will teach him how to be productive. There's alot of jobs where speed is discouraged and safety is number one. Most industrial work they would rather you be slow and steady and the job completed safely rather than going in and cowboying the machine around. On the other hand there's jobs you're on where its go, go, go and you have to be fast and good. He'll figure it out.
Exactly. It doesn't matter how fast you can throw the machine around if you cause damage that puts the job on hold for a day.
I cant speak on this in still a bit green.....
Me too, tinkerer. Big difference is I did other things for aboot 10 years in the middle
It's all about the quality. I'm also a bit green but I make sure that I always get the job done!
One thing I learned from a friend.... He is a trained and certified union operator. The majority of the older fellas he worked with are reluctant to share secrets of the trade. He had to learn the hard way while being criticized by the more seasoned operators. Maybe it's a localized to his specific job experience, but maybe it's normal? I also learned from him having a CDL is helpful. He just completed his class A licensing. It helped on some random job sites and have him another career option. Sounds like a fun and exciting time for him! I'm jealous. I knew everything at that age and continued to do so until about 25.
Not uncommon at all for the older guys not wanting to help the new guys. I don't think it matters what trade or occupation it is is either. Some feel threatened by the new guys because of their own insecurity. I always took it as a compliment when the new guys would ask me stuff. I didn't mind working with the new apprentices. What I did mind was when they had an attitude like they already knew everything and figured they should be the one doing the teaching. Thankfully this didn't happen a lot but was usually when they just got out of school. Then there's some people who are terrible at trying to teach the new guys and just get frustrated.
I think you’re so is making a wise decision although I know our local (150) would require him to be 18 for an application.Once he’s accepted they will instruct him on many pieces of equipment to be more employable, although I think they start on skid steers. I know they also have to get a CDL which is done through the training site. The instructors and your son will probably be able to tell if it’s for him pretty quick.Hopefully it will work out for him.I know work around here is really good for quite a while,hopefully there too.Could not have worked any better for me,I’m very greatfull hope it works out for him!
Another option for him would be military service, don't laugh. I enlisted in the USAF to avoid the Army draft during the Vietnam War, I wound up there anyway but not as a grunt. It was a huge kickstart for transitioning from a kid to a young adult. I learned responsibility and discipline. The services need any kind of trade you can imagine.
I wouldn't call it a race, as much as working steady, and efficient. Good operators make every move count. Guys come to me a lot with questions because I would rather them ask when doubt, and I never laugh at trivial questions. I try to give tips when I can. I worked around older men that wouldn't give tips. Actually showed a kid today how to dig up asphalt with a loader, and not take any gravel. After a while, he was quite pleased with himself, and was doing really good. Been grading behind a pulverizer this past week, going to start laying down 8000 tons of gravel in the morning. Supposed to teach same kid to dump trucks. Dump trailers, lots of over head wires, only 3 inches going on with 5 meters between the stakes. Hope he picks up the dumping as fast as the digging, or I am going to have a lot of pushing.
So, I'll try to minimally detract from the thread topic to ask @cuttin edge what the tricks are for peeling an asphalt layer? I have a neighbor who wants to trade his asphalt driveway for concrete and he's asked me to rip out the driveway. I'd assume he'd like to leave as much gravel as possible but I don't know...
Are you going to use your backhoe or something else ?
Good operator pays attention to everything. You know where your dust is going. You know when the sun is in the wrong spot to be loading that truck so you move the truck. Sometimes dust over the cab is what happens so you can see what you're doing, but it's a calculated decision. A good operator doesn't sit there and turn the steering wheel and tear up the brand new asphalt with a backhoe. He learns to move and turn the wheel smoothly at the same time so as to leave no marks. A good operator will shake the bucket just right and not spill a single rock when it makes sense to do so, and on the other side of the coin they'll get dirt all over everything when it doesn't make sense to worry about it. A good example of that is loading with my 35 mini. It simply does not have enough bucket curl and height to load even my low dump truck without spilling. Sure I could shake all sorts of dirt off and move super slow, and you know what I'd still end up dumping a little dirt. At that point you switch off your neat freak and go to production mode and then you clean up when you're done.
A good operator is also fully aware of his surroundings and who else is working nearby.
Years back when I worked for a construction company, they had a excavator operator that looked just like the feller below. He was a real good operator. So when you see a operator that looks like Blacque Jacque Shellaque, you will just know your looking at the best.
I don't have a proper phone, so I can't show you, but it's pretty easy. You might get a bit when you take your first bucket. Works for your front or rear bucket. Don't try to dig under the pave, once you get it started, just get you cutting edge under, and lift up as you drive ahead, or as you pull your stick in on your hoe. As the piece climbs your bucket, slowly lower your bucket to the ground, and tilt back. If you push too fat, it will just fall away from you. Depending on your asphalt, you can get a pretty big piece. My little grader as a perfectly shaped bucket for it, and if I am careful, I can take a 10 foot wide chunk, although 9 times out of 10, it will break before I get to the truck. I'm not a good explainer.
Yes, the plan would be to use the backhoe @Tinkerer Your explanation was good @cuttin edge thank you!
Yes what cutting edge said you figure out how much of a bite you can break off and have fall inside of the bucket instead of flip over away from you. It saves a whole lot of chasing around especially when you don't have a thumb.
I see a lot of guys dig it up and then pile it. 1, it's harder to pick up that way, and a bigger mess. 2 you're handling it twice. I'll saw cut a corner, or a place to get my bucket under. With a backhoe, I would get it started with the back, then dig it with the front. Not sure about your New Holland, but our bucket tips back, and you don't even need to put the piece in the bucket, more like on the bucket.