Summary Case study; Excavator was overloading the engine once in awhile. No fault codes. Some troubleshooting done and adjustments made to lessen the problem. A week later the problem got worse. Troubleshooting included checking pressures on both main and load sense circuits, pulling suspect screens in the control passages in the valve and pump controls. Proper load sense pressure was getting back to the pump. Rear pump seemed to be "hanging on stroke" so the end caps were pulled and the servo piston had to be hit with something to move it. The pump was removed from the machine and the rear section disassemble to check. The following photos show what was found.
The large looking scratch is just a mark and isn't relevant to the problems. The circular scratches are relevant and many can be felt when you pull your finger nail over them. Also not the little notches on the barrel assemble ports. All you see here indicates foreign material in the oil. The photo below shows the little notches and subsequent erosion. The next photo shows the saddles that the swash plate sits in. The last in this reply shows some scuffing on the high pressure side of the saddle.
The little bit of blackened area seems to be a clue. Photo below is the low pressure side of the saddle and note some more blackened area and the mottled appearance in the brass. The mechanic stated there was plenty of brass slurry on the cradle when the swash plate was removed. Note the brass on the mating surface of the swash plate.
The high pressure side shows some scuffing as well. I'll post a few more things after a bit.
That disaster's got big $$ signs written all over it.............
The servo valve spool also has some problems. The issue with this is the oil that gets into this spool and cavity is from the load sensing circuits and not what is in the pump cavity. There is a spool inside this one that also is part of the control circuit and at this point the client is going any further.
The survey of damage to this section of the pump then shows there was debris inside the flow control servo valve spool which could have been most of the cause of the pump not de-stroking. The other damage was to the cradle and swash plate. When I put the swash plate in the cradle and tilted it like it was stroking up it moved well until it hit just shy of full stroke and at that point it would stick and not move at all. I had to physically pick the plate up slightly in order to be able to rotate it back to level. All this fits the scenario of when the pump was working at less that full output systems worked, but when pressure and flow were maxed out the swash plate would be stuck and not destroke until after after the control was moved to neutral for a couple of seconds. The machine has a bit over 7,000 hours on the clock. I have no history as to use or maintenance practices. A shear was installed on the machine at time of failure. We have described the damage to the pump but what is the root cause of the failure? The client is going to install a reman pump back in the machine as soon as possible. What other issues might one expect to see in the future? What other work should be considered before putting the machine back to work?
After letting this situation stew in my mind for awhile I started thinking about the progression of the failure. First thing in my thinking was the the realization the load sense oil coming back to the pump from the main control valve has no filtering mechanism. Any garbage that circulates inside of that valve can possibly flow back to that servo valve in the pump. There are a couple of small screens in passage ways inside the pump. However they would only catch something actually visible to the naked eye. All the damage on the servo valve along with the scratches in the bore seems to indicate that is what happened. I had asked the mechanic if he had pulled the filters and strainer in the tank and he reported that he had and saw nothing. He did say he noticed that when he operated the shear, the stick would creep without moving that control. With that piece of information I'm trying to find other places or reasons oil from the shear circuit could get to the stick circuit. Right now all I can think of is the compensators which are on the load sense circuit and can connect to the pump servo valve as well. The next issue is the damage to the saddle that held the swash plate. What I saw didn't strike me as being a lot different on other pumps I've seen and rebuilt in the past. The saddle itself is some kind of bronze or brass and the swash plate is some kind of high tech steel. The odd thing was the fact that the swash plate would stick in place at a high output position. It seemed that the plate was not sitting exactly square in the saddle. The only thing that holds the plate in place is the pressure on the front of it by the piston and barrel assembly internal spring and the seal and discharge plate. The wear on the seal surfaces of the piston and barrel assembly and the seal plate I have seen before. The little notches at the back sides of the barrel ports I believe is erosion because the seal surfaces were no long perfect. Did any of that have anything to do with the stroking issue? My thoughts are that it didn't. I've seen plenty worse in the past so for the most part just put that wear to normal wear and tear for its age. An exchange pump will take care of all that. So the list of work is getting longer. Replace the pump with an exchange. Remove and check the compensators on both the shear and stick circuits. Remove and disassemble the stick and shear cylinders, inspect for damage. Repair as necessary and re-install. Replace hydraulic filters and oil. Test run machine checking cycle times and pressures on all functions. Repair any discrepancies. Return to service. I'll let you know when the machine is back up running again and try to provide some conclusions on the reason for failure and some of costs involved.
John, I appreciate that this is a situation where not all the oil in a system gets filtered before reaching critical items like pump load sense controls that have tight tolerances, but would there be anything to be gained in going to finer filtration elements on the rest of the hydraulic system in an attempt to remove a larger percentage of particles at the smaller end of the size range..? I have no idea even if that's possible or if any options are available either from the equipment manufacturer or aftermarket. You never mentioned it, but I assume that the equipment owner wasn't having oil analysis performed on the hydraulic system..? In addition to your proposed list of work above, would there be any benefit gained in kidney-looping the machine (probably more than once) after the oil and filters have been replaced..? It'll probably take a while for the small particles stuck in corners everywhere in the system to start migrating.
Nige, that's a good question and at this point I'm not sure of an answer. The installed filtration in these machines is very good to start with. The only flow paths that aren't filtered that can bring those fine particles back to the tank would be the motor case drain circuits. Client has been warned of future issues with those components so at the moment we aren't saying that it is necessary or ruled out. We will know more after the stick and shear cylinders are checked and the reason for the stick circuit creep is figured out. As I recall there is a mathematical procedure to kidney looping that requires a certain amount of time with the filters in the loop to ensure all the oil gets the additional filtering. I've been part of one project in the past on a big machine that required more than three hours of operating the loop to obtain the theoretical coverage.
There are kidney loop machines out there that have built in particle counters. We have a couple here on site. Basically you keep filtering the oil until the particle count goes below a certain value. Sometimes it’s necessary to run the machine and exercise circuits where oil may be dead-headed. It’s funny to watch the ISO Code jump by a couple when you do that. Otherwise a portable particle counter is another option.
There are companies here that sell permanent mounted loop systems that are like the old Cummins bypass filter setup. I've never heard of a machine that can count particles while in operation. Can you post any information that you have on them? I don't know if that would be something that could be sold to end users around here. Prevailing thoughts are that staying within manufacturers specifications, you won't have problems.
I’ll post some links tomorrow when I can work from a computer rather than a phone.
http://www.deere.com/media/player/p...percaddy_m.flv&autostart=true&r=-1&height=270
The only brand I would personally endorse is CC Jensen. Used them many times and never been disappointed. I'd be looking at an HDU15/25 for an excavator hydraulic system, it would only require an 24V supply to run the pump. http://cc-jensen.com/index.php?m=p&pid=27 I think maybe we were talking at cross-purposes regarding the particle counter. I was referring to an external filter cart with a built-in particle counter so that you can see the oil clean up as it is kidney-looped. Again CCJ supply that type of machine, as I said before we have two of them. See photo below, the particle counter display is circled in red. As we see it the advantages of this filter cart over OEM-supplied carts are:- a) It's electric, so no air pump banging away all the time. b) It has 60DegC heaters for heavier oils, speeding up the process. c) The particle counter produces real-time cleanliness results. d) It's cheaper than OEM units that don't have any of the three advantages above.
I explain it using the comparison of - it's like buying clothes - "one size fits all" may fit, but it sure as hell isn't going to fit you like something that was tailored.
Thanks for the web site Nige. A bigger perceived problem than the particle count in this neck of the woods is entrained water in the oil. The web site gave me some good ideas of a way to sell the service. Large companies in this area already have the loop filtering or contamination requirements with new oil suppliers. It's the small companies where "good enough" makes a lot of standard engineering practices a hard sell. Would you know any ball park costs to a system like you have in the photo?
TBH I would say that particles played a much larger part in the failure you describe above than water, but that may be an exception rather than the norm. Either way CCJ filters can pull both particles and water out of an oil, it's simply a matter of selecting the correct filter element. Don't get too freaked out, but the filter cart in the photo above cost a hair over $30,000, but it is very much in the way of a "special" in that it will handle everything up to EP/FDAO gear oils, so it has all the bells and whistles. For something like hydraulic systems a much simpler filter cart is available. I would be looking at the PTU2 27/27 unit and in the write-up it specifically states that it works for "offline filtration of water-contaminated hydraulic oil". http://cc-jensen.com/index.php?m=p&pid=147 Unfortunately I don't have a recent price for it, and I don't know if it can be had with a particle counter built into it. The best thing I could suggest is that you make contact with CCJ in Atlanta. If you want details of a contact, etc, PM me and I'll gladly give you the name of the person at CCJ I've dealt with for years.
Here's a Donaldson filter cart and a Parker filter cart. There are others but Donaldson has filter elements down to 2 micron and filters for water. The one I rented was home made but used Donaldson filters. They start around $2000 I believe for a basic filter cart but could be home made too. The better ones have indicators to tell when the filter needs changing. https://www.donaldson.com/en-us/engine/filters/products/hydraulics/off-line-filtration/filter-cart/ https://www.parker.com/Literature/EMHFF/HFD_Catalog/HFD_Catalog_Filter_Carts.pdf
I've used filter carts before. Usually it was for big corporations that wanted new oil filtered before it was put in a new machine. After the machine was delivered the carts didn't get used again. The reason I bring up water is because it can be seen in hydraulic oil by color. I have a few machines in my area that sit for long periods of time and always pick up water in the oil. Color turns white and the only remedy is to drain it and start taking hoses and fittings loose to get rid of what is in the circuits. Even that is not the best way to clean the system. I might be able to sell a service on those merits. As for the particle count and running a loop system on this machine go, it's a non starter for this customer at this point. I'll know more when the other work is finished.
Mixing different hyd. fluids or using the wrong one can cause problems too. A lot of parts the warranty is void if the new oil isn't pre-filtered. I was curious how many people actually use a filter cart when adding new oil. Other than large operations I would bet the number is probably less than 10%. Filter carts can be rented for not too much money.
I've been in the business for more than forty years and never seen any warranty language that specifies that new hydraulic oil has to be pre-filtered or the warranty is void. I've run five different shops including two dealer shops and only had the requirement of pre-filtering from a couple of corporate customers. I've never seen where anyone could rent a filter buggy for that matter either. There are companies local that have the capacity to bring in their equipment for a price and do the job.
Widely known that 85-95% of hydraulic failure is the result of contamination. People have even mentioned that replacement components are seldom covered by warranty because effects of contamination were found during inspection. I found 3 local hydraulic shops that rent filter carts just by picking up the phone. Not as fancy as the system Nige showed but essentially does the same job of filtering. Some filter carts have a port so oil samples can be taken to have analyzed by a lab. I rented one from Berendsen Fluid Power who is fairly big in N. America because the shop foreman was very knowledgeable. I asked him about pre-filtering oil and he said the fact that most customers don't is what keeps them in business. How can they warranty a repair if the oil doesn't meet the required ISO spec.? A new machine from a major manufacturer would have pre-filtered oil. My skid steer specifies pre-filtering to 5 micron when adding oil and it only holds about 10 gallons. Kidney loops systems usually recommend the fluid should be cycled 7 times through the system. Berendsen's test bench has an automated kidney loop system that is programmed to run at night but will run for hours at a time. A digital display shows the fluid cleanliness. I think he said it runs every night except on long weekends and the odd holiday. I think your customer is foolish not wanting to at least polish the system through a kidney loop using a filter cart. They're already spending thousands on repairs in only 7000 hours. What's another few hundred to insure the fluid is absolutely clean. http://www.bfpna.com/Default.aspx https://www.crossco.com/blog/new-hydraulic-oil-not-clean-hydraulic-oil https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/497/mobile-equipment-contamination
I know at our dealership, when we install a new or reman component, the manufacturer will not warrant the part without the oil being filtered and ISO's within spec (new or used oil). Funny thing is if we add auxiliaries or install an manufacturer approved attachment to a brand new machine and need to add oil then we are not required to filter it. ???
Same back in the days when I worked for the supply side rather than being a customer. If you want us to warrant our repair/components then kidney looping of the oil until it is within the OEM-specified acceptable range is included in the price of the job. New mining machines come these days with a "Certified Clean Machine" tag in the cab showing the ISO Codes of the various compartments as they were when the machine got to the end of the factory production line.
Thanks mg2361 and Nige for verifying that repairs and new components require pre-filtered oil. I'm not a mechanic or big time operator but like to back up what I'm saying. I've heard it said that hydraulic oil can never be too clean.
I wouldn't go as far as using the word "require", and in most cases the oil itself is not pre-filtered - it's put into the machine then the machine is operated while at the same time the oil in the system is being cleaned by an external filter cart plumbed in for that purpose. Doing it that way has the advantage of catching any particles from the oil but also anything from inside machine systems or components that may have been left there as a result of the manufacture/repair process. "No point in putting super-clean oil into a dirty compartment." Back in my dealer days we did it more to control our own destiny in respect of potential re-do/rework, but the numbers were there even back in those days to back up the fact that cleaner oil could double component life.
One of the big problems I saw with filtering oil was the serious lack of understanding at the upper levels of the company I worked for at the time. I'm talking about maybe twenty years ago. A few plants did get small basic filter carts. Basically just a hand cart with an electric motor pump and a canister pump on it and a couple sections of hose. No one that I know of was given any specific training on when or how to use the carts. I know one of the first things one was used for at our plant was as a transfer pump to oil out of a crusher oil tank. The oil in those tanks always looked more like metal-flake paint than oil! After that abuse I would not even think of trying to run hydraulic oil through the thing! I can only hope that at some point upper management gets out of the stone-age in their thinking regards maintenance of equipment. But it is going to take a major learning path from the top down for the company. Especially one that regards the people maintaining the equipment as a cost that they want to reduce as much as possible. Until someone in power comes to view training and education as a investment that will pay dividends I don't see that happening. In the last twenty years I worked for that company the attitudes were going the opposite direction.
Actually I would like to see something official from a part supplier that Welder Dave supplies that specifically says a part won't be warranted unless any oil used in the operation of that component used pre-filtered oil. I would also like to see the definition of pre-filtered in that warranty statement.
You have a couple experienced posters say that filtering the oil to meet manufacturers ISO specs. is required if they expect to get warranty on repairs. I provided a link showing new oil doesn't usually meet the OEM ISO specs. Whether it's pre-filtered or through a kidney loop system is splitting hairs. A filter cart can be used for both. A lot of times the hyd. tank has to be drained to carry out repairs and new oil has to be added. If you have the filter cart why not do both. On some machines every component has to be disassembled to be sure all traces of contamination are removed. Show me where a component manufacturer has given warranty on a replacement component that was caused by contamination. Without spending a lot of time here are a couple lines from a warranty statement that I think would be pretty standard. "This warranty shall not cover defects caused by improper use or installation, system contamination or failure of the purchaser to perform all regular and normal maintenance specified by the original equipment manufacturer (OEM)." "OEM startup guidelines and installation procedures must be followed and documented."
So far you are talking out of a paper bung hole. Provide a warranty paper from any manufacturer that says it is required that hydraulic oil has to be pre-filtered or the warranty is void.
Keep digging!
Dave, as far as I'm concerned you're getting the wrong end of the stick because what I said above in post #27 is not what you're saying I said....... The process I was mentioning before was nothing to do with OEM insistence, Cat in that case, but everything to do with the particular dealer who was trying to minimize re-do costs. Additionally it was certainly not used in any way to insist to customers that there would be no warranty on a particular repair unless a kidney-looping process was performed. The kidney looping cost was included (where appropriate) in the part of the repair quotation covering "commissioning & testing" because cleaning the system was part of the C&T process after repair work had been completed. Generally all repairs carried a warranty, the critical part for the customer afterwards was getting the warranty honoured in the event of a failure. If a customer had a subsequent failure you could pretty well bet your bottom dollar that the first thing they would be asked to supply to the dealer would be an oil analysis history including ISO Code going back to the time of the previous repair as a minimum, longer than that would be even better. No oil analysis history, much less chance of warranty unless it was VERY obvious that there had been a failure of materials or workmanship in the repair. Where the OEM involvement warranty for parts generally goes back to them via the dealer. Before honouring parts warranty the OEM would want to see evidence that "all the right things" had been done during the repair, but again there was no insistence from the OEM that the K-L process had to be carried out in order to claim warranty. I don't know how much clearer I can make it for you. Oil cleaning is NOT mandatory (AFAIK) to keep OEM (parts) or dealer (labour) warranty in the world of the Big C. It is however extremely helpful in the case of a failure to get assistance with covering the costs of said failure.
Ok a little misunderstanding, I didn't word it right. I was trying to say that after a major repair the component supplier would require oil analysis for warranty claims to prove the oil met their ISO cleanliness levels. Most oil from containers does not meet the required ISO specs. Dealer/installer may have their own requirements too so they aren't on the hook for warranty either. Filtering the oil with an external filter is the best way to insure the oil is as clean as possible. As far as the repairs required for this thread, the customer is not saving any money by not wanting to run the oil through a filter cart.
Actually, I have oil distributors in my area that will dispute any statement that their oil does not meet any manufactures specifications for cleanliness to the point of lawsuits for slander and defamation. So what is your source of information that states most oil from containers does not meet the required ISO specs? I've also had a supplier of bio oil that specifically stated they didn't want any filtering outside of the normal requirements of the manufacturers. You admit you are not a mechanic. So what are your qualifications to make recommendations over and above those of us who are?
Just because you may find it interesting: The only way to add hyd. oil to most Tigercat machines is through a hand pump that pushes it through a filter (2 micron, I think, or maybe 5, I forget) and into the tank.
How many do you want? The 2nd is from Parker. I went back and looked and it was in the repair manual that stated new oil must be filtered to 5 micron when replacing components of the hydrostatic drive system. So it appears it is part of the OEM procedure to pre-filter oil. Looks like it is a requirement of Tigercat too. There was no mention anywhere in this thread about what type of oil but if the oil is stored in a controlled environment and comes with a certificate of cleanliness meeting a specific ISO spec. then it is obviously acceptable. Most oil in drums and containers doesn't have a cleanliness certificate. Notice in the last one it talks about pre-filtering oil and specifically states "in some cases, if the level is not achieved the warranty for the equipment may be voided." I never intended to get into a heated debate just trying to point out that new oil isn't necessarily clean enough for a hydraulic system. It seems odd nobody rents filter carts where you are. Looking at the damage in your original post with only 7000 hours, what logic is your customer using to not want to run a kidney loop system? It would be such a low percentage of the actual cost of repairs. I would think a lot of mechanics/ shops would insist on it before even taking on the job. https://www.crossco.com/blog/new-hydraulic-oil-not-clean-hydraulic-oil https://www.parker.com/Literature/EMHFF/ConMon/Guide to Contamination Standards.pdf https://blog.precisionfiltration.co...new-hydraulic-oil-is-not-clean-hydraulic-oil/ http://files.danfoss.com/documents/Design Guidelines for Hydraulic Fluid Cleanliness/520L0467.pdf https://www.mobilehydraulictips.com/offline-filtration-ensures-clean-running-efficient-machines/ https://mac-hyd.com/blog/hydraulic-contamination-fluid-cleanliness/ https://www.concreteconstruction.ne...-precast/keeping-your-hydraulic-fluid-clean_o https://www.descase.com/sites/default/files/WP1703_ISO Cleanliness Whitepaper.pdf http://wegetstuffdone.com/importance-fluid-cleanliness-hydraulic-systems/
Cat’s contamination control requirements that dealers get inspected on yearly require new oil to be filtered.
I do not propose to stir the pot here. I will simply state what I know from my (admittedly 3rd World) experience of large dealer and mining operations. Make of this information what you will. The easy way to prove whether oil supplied meets OEM Cleanliness standards or not is to pull a sample and have it run through a particle counter. Sometimes the results can be pretty but in my experience they are often not. From bulk oil down to 1-gallon jugs, generally the smaller the container the larger the likelihood that the oil will not meet the Cat Standard of ISO 16/13. I have no idea what other manufacturers use as a standard. From my experience 55-gall drums are particularly prone to contamination, usually because of the way they are stored - nobody ever uses drum covers. My experience in the course of working both for OEM dealers and for various corporate-level mining customers from the time Contamination Control became a topic of interest in the industry (probably about year 2000+/-) up till now is that most oil suppliers would not guarantee that their oil would consistently meet OEM cleanliness standards of ISO 16/13 or better. I am talking about major oil companies such as Conoco, Castrol, Shell, Mobil, etc. I have no experience of distributors who supply products acting as agents of major oil companies so I cannot comment, but I would have thought that the more a product is handled the more likely it would become contaminated. Having sat in on discussions on lubricant supply contracts with the majors any suggestion of a requirement that all products supplied under the contract be guaranteed to meet OEM cleanliness standards 100% of the time the usual retort was - "We can do that, but it will cost you [extra]"......... Most corporate-level customers don't bother paying the extra to have the oil supplier guarantee to supply "clean" oil, they simply install on-site filtration systems (recirc. or single-pass) in their shops that provides oil at the dispenser nozzle that meets OEM standards, thus putting responsibility on themselves to maintain the required standards of cleanliness. In a number of cases I saw this work done as a joint venture between the lubricant supplier and the customer. Samples of new oil are pulled at a maximum of weekly intervals to ensure that required cleanliness standards are being met. Just as an example what we receive as bulk from our oil supplier right now is above recommended OEM standards by at least 2 ISO Codes, sometimes more, when it is delivered to site. We filter it in our facility and at the dispenser it meets or exceeds OEM standards. Question to JD955SC - Is meeting fluid cleanliness standards now one of the conditions that must be met to achieve a Cat 5-Star Dealer Shop Rating..? It was only a "Nice to have" when I left the dealer world, I'm sure it has probably become mandatory by now.
I think sometime in the early 2000's as well it became an issue and that is why the newer owners manuals have in bold print "Always use oil filtered through a 5 micron filter for replenishing the hydraulic reservoir." My machine originally came with a 10 micron filter but the new specs. show the filter required to be a 5 micron. I'm thinking this is in response to issues regarding oil cleanliness and/or warranty claims submitted to the OEM. Kind of along the lines of air filters shouldn't be removed until the indicator says so. I wasn't aware of all the issues regarding hydraulic fluid until I just had to replace a wheel motor. When I started looking into it I couldn't believe how much stuff was out there. Mostly good info but some bad info too like suction strainers should be removed because they cause cavitation.
Welder Dave, you keep jumping in on the thread mouthing opinion from other people as fact. Apparently you have a skid steer and have acknowledged that you are not a mechanic so have little to no experience. I'm trying to walk through a case history here for the benefit of all and you apparently want to make yourself look smart by walking over the intended purpose of the thread. I don't need or want a parrot for a megaphone. I've learned to deal with fact throughout my career and what really makes me angry is when people start spouting here say and inanities that they have heard from someone else or read about in some fluff piece of advertising. The links you have provided are for the most part advertising by companies for their products or services. The only one from a manufacturer was the Dan Foss article that states start up oil cleanliness should be ISO 25/22/17 and top up should be 23/21/15. The Cross article states "most new oil from barrels is 23/21/18" but they do not provide a source for that statement. They go on to say that a hydraulic system generates more dirt over a year and gives some fantastical amount of weight that is added to the oil in the form of dirt. Again, no source for that information and they are assuming the system is making dirt and the installed filtering systems are ineffective at best and problematic at worst. They want to sell something and they are trying to make everyone else look bad to make themselves look good! I want to make it clear that I am not against filtering oil and making sure that everything is kept as clean as possible. Following factory specified maintenance procedures is how you make a machine last to its fullest potential. What I do react to is people stating absolutes that are not true. Warranties do not state that you have to do something or else. There is also an element of fact in any failure that has to be established in order to accept or deny a warranty claim. You can tell me a pump failed because of dirty oil that I put in the system. I'll counter that you will need to prove your case or I'll see you in court. Even in the case of the pump that is the subject of this thread. Can anyone actually say that the failure is caused by dirt in the oil? The unit has more than 7,000 hours on it. Can anyone predict how much longer it might have lasted if it had a loop system installed? What would be considered normal working life of any pump of this type in this particular application? In my experience I've seen plenty of excavator hydraulic pumps fail at 6,000 to 9,000 hours of operation. Would just following the manufacture's recommended maintenance practices have made the pump last longer? How do we know that those practices weren't followed and how would we prove otherwise.
I believe it is. We get five star consistently every year and it’s a lot of work. The bulk tanks have filtration, they have to be particle counted and samples taken to prove the cleanliness, and we have a filter cart for cleaning oil in the machine. Cat takes the clean oil issue rather seriously.
I thought as much. I remember the 5-Star Certification inspections, there was a lot of work involved in them back in the day. I can't imagine it's any different now.
For someone claiming 40 years experience I would have expected much better. I never resorted to name calling but tried to provide as much back up as I could. I didn't run away with my tail between my legs. Others actually joined this thread to provide relevant information. I gave you some information on filter carts as well. I thought knowing about fluid cleanliness and what can or should be done is in the best interests of everyone. I'm not a mechanic but apparently Cat agrees with me. I'm OK with that! Just disregard below, it's a bunch of drivel. https://www.hansa-flex.com/fileadmi..._A_concise_guide_to_fluid_management_2017.pdf
That's OK, you have met my expectations completely. Go stand on someone else's shoulders to try and make yourself look good.
I agree ….. John C. was not honest in his experience in the industry .40 years was an understatement ! It's closer to 60 years experience if you count time spent growing up running equipment and serving in the Navy , wrenching on and appraising equipment later in life . Long story short Welder Dave ….. Members like John C. have forgotten more about equipment then the " millennials " will ever get figured out . LMAO !
Well I can say one thing with certainty - you do not want me working on your hydraulic system unless you want it totally fubar'd. Now if you want an underground detention system installed or a building torn down - I'm your guy.
I honestly wasn't trying to enter the argument on either side with my comment about the Tigercats. I thought it might be interesting, but I think it has more to do with the habits of some of the one-crew owner-operator loggers. They take used buckets and refill them from the bulk tanks at the oil companies around here, and they ride in the back of the pickup with a rag in the spout until they are needed. I have watched them pick them up without even wiping the half inch of dirt off the top and dump them in through the funnel with the dirt falling in with the oil. Most of these guys are running 5yr old or less machinery that is worn slam out.
You brought up a good point that is relevant to the thread. One of the principles at Tigercat I think was a man by the name of Crawford that built the Timbco feller buncher. That evolved I believe with a sale to Timberjack and later on I've heard he became involved somehow with Tigercat. At any rate every machine that he was involved with had that fill system installed. As I recall though the oil was pumped through the return filter of the hydraulic system. The other oddball thing they had was they wanted to pressurize the hydraulic tank but didn't have a compressor installed and apparently didn't trust gravity and expansion to keep the head pressure they felt they needed. They took boost pressure from the manifold side of the engine turbo charger and plumbed it into the hydraulic tank. Also the tanks on a those bunchers were about ten feet off the ground to the bottom of the tank. The push and pull pumps were about the only way to get oil in the tank.
I’m not sure who is harder on equipment, loggers or landfills
At least landfills are usually located somewhere near civilization and have a good road and such, when you are out in the woods and don't have that $2 part and whatever job needs to be completed, that is when stuff gets done in a funny way.
I don't claim to be a mechanic but other people do! I come here to gain information from others with more experience and hope to help others when I have knowledge on an issue. I just want to take the opportunity now to thank the guys with experience for taking the time to post here and help a bum like me out! THANKS GUYS!
True but then I'd usually rather have to crawl under a machine out in the woods than one parked in a landfill!
Usually on a woods machine you only have to worry about what kind of critter might be living in the pans. With landfill machines now days the worry is on the chemicals and application devices that make the machine seem more like a rattlesnake waiting to shorten your life.
Landfill equipment is gross, I've spent my fair share avoiding getting poked by needles and the dreaded hanging maxi pad right in your face, never again! Not worth it! Definitely need to pack more macgiver supplies when working deep in the woods, keep it working for the day, get the proper parts tomorrow. You just can't have everything in the truck!
More like get it working for the day, get the proper parts never, or when it breaks again. After all why fix it when it is working (running on haywire) and in winter there is no money coming in to fix it. And so it goes....
You must deal with some pretty low budget operations... Around here winter is when most of the wood gets hauled and the money comes in. Spring breakup is when the machines get all the attention.
Talking about oil & failures … Buddy got me on to this product couple years ago . https://lucasoil.com/products/engine-builder-lubricants/engine-break-in-oil-additive-tb-zinc-plus Sales point is the lack of zinc in today's oil's wiping out a " flat tappet " camshaft on older engines . If it works on a flat tappet cam why would it not help a hydro system where parts are running metal to metal on a swash plate ? Could it be today's oil is to clean leaving out yesterday's zinc ?
I think Nige brought up the point that Hitachi doesn't like zinc in their hydraulic systems.
No zinc for the Hitachi's ? Got that . They can always move out if they don't like it . LMAO !
In general there are two methods of producing an anti-wear additive package in a hydraulic oil. One is to use zinc, the second is to use a combination of other elements, mostly calcium, phosphorus, & sulphur to achieve the same end result. The latter group is what's usually known as "ashless" or zinc-free oils, because surprisingly enough they don't contain zinc. One of the downsides to using zinc as an anti-wear additive is believe it or not corrosion, basically it attacks all yellow metals to a greater or lesser extent depending on the level of zinc additives in the oil. There's a lot more chemistry to it than that, but effectively that's the short version. It's generally not recommended to use an oil with a zinc-based anti-wear package in a system that was designed by the OEM from the get-go to use ashless oil.
Like the Old Man would say …. " Pour something that's slick in the hydro tank " . It will be OK with the filters & screens in the system of the machine . It's just an excavator …. Pour some oil in it and move on . LMAO ! If ya want to get all technical …. White phosphorus will flat make them move real quick !
WP incendiaries are a pretty sight to see. . . long as you're not under them.
Sounds like he learned from the same school one of the old guys at the quarry went to. When asked by someone "What oil did you put in that machine?" His replay was "Oily oil."
Good point Ken . The Old Man could have very well attended the same school . 4 years at Purdue University . Basic training at Fort Knox . https://www.knox.army.mil/ Advanced training at Fort Sill OK . https://sill-www.army.mil/ And then an all expense paid trip in to Tan Son Knut air base . https://www.flickr.com/photos/aodcurator/sets/72157616028429781/ After that round engine & hydraulic oil type & filtering is pretty trivial . " Pour something slick in and move on " I agree with the Old Man on this one . Shell Rotella 15W-40 will work in anything .
Probably a little bit of difference between getting something running because it is raining a lot of blunt objects through the atmosphere looking for something to stop in and making a hydraulic system last as long as possible I've made a pretty good living on people putting something slick in and get the machine moving again. I really don't need to work anymore so would rather go after the really tough troubleshooting projects. Failure because of dirty oil is pretty easy to diagnose.
Good point John . I realize your selling a service and none of us want dirty oil in the system . My point is oil and equipment manufacturers went to great lengths to satisfy people years ago and here we are ….. Oil is good and equipment has filters on it … What's the problem ? Higher head pressure on new systems ? This is a give and take type situation …. They aint gonna last as long as a low pressure system and it not the oils fault . They gonna fail faster with the high pressure .
I know where you are coming from and agree to a certain point. The issue with this repair is the costs associated and the lack of maintenance in the past. The pump is right around $20K. The labor to swap it plus all the new hydraulic oil and checking out the other components is going to add another $5K to $8K to that and then there is down time in the form of lost rent. They have been messing with the machine for just short of a month first trying to figure out what was wrong and then trucking the machine to the rental outfit for the repair. I'm guessing rental on a 40 ton machine might be in the range of $15K to $20K a month in lost revenue. So to put it another way, a lack of $5K in maintenance costs ended up in close to $40K or more of money out of pocket. That other comment on how long low pressure systems last compared to high pressure machines is a long way off the mark. I did appraisals on a logging shovel feeding a mill up by Anacortes, Washington. They figured on trading it when the hour meter hit 20K hours. I looked at it again when it hit 30K hours and again when it hit 40K hours. It still had the original engine, hydraulic pump, both travel motors and the swing motor. The dealer performed all the maintenance on the machine from delivery until it was taken on trade. It was sold to a logger out in the Port Angeles area who ran the engine another year and then swapped it out. There were some problems with the swapped engine and the original was put back in while the other engine was fixed. I looked at that machine again when the machine hit 48K hours and the original engine and pump were still there working everyday. I've worked on a lot of low pressure systems over the years and it was rare to find any pumps, gear or vane that lasted more than 5K hours.
I have been scouting machinery auctions for half used 1000L (~250gal) pods of hydraulic oil. They are usually ex-mining stock, some are labelled mfg date some are not. They go cheap compared to new. After reading this thread I’m now unsure if this is wise, having no guarantee of cleanliness and age, how, where its been stored. I was thinking of making up a basic filtering device post hand pump that I use on 44gal drums. Goal was just to save money, I need to do a full change and purge which would require at least 250l of oil, it’s a 20 tonne class machine, oil is very milky I’m guessing from condensation as it has sat for long periods. Any advice? Just go new? Machine is rarely used for agricultural jobs, old and operated like a grandma Cheers
Just a quick update on the machine that is the subject of this thread. The dealer obtained an exchange hydraulic pump from the Komatsu dealer, installed it and put the machine back to work. No problems since put back to work.