I know I"ve seen this posted before but can't find it now when I need it, I'm not sure what its called, varnish, stale fuel, gunk in tanks, or exactly the phrase to use, but I bought a dozer that has sat for some time with little use over the last few years and there is a buildup on the inside of the tanks and on the dipstick tube that I'd call varnish, anyone got ideas how to clean them out? Is there some miracle product that you can dump into the tank and roll the tank to remove the gunk and then what do you use to rinse the tanks out with again? Thanks in advance
Randy, been there, done that twice on a little used old A-C grader that was contaminated with algae/bacteria. Removing the tank was not an option. I drained the diesel and removed the inspection plates. I then high pressure washed with hot water for hours with a flexible wand. I used rig wash to help break the crud up.You would not believe all the crap that came out of there. I then ventilated the tank overnight with a hair drier on high. The next morning I buttoned it up flushed the lines, replaced the filters and filled it up. This time I put a biocide in the fuel. I should have used biocide 8 years ago I probably would have not had to repeat the process last summer. I fill all equipment tanks daily to reduce moisture contamination. I hope this helps. Legdoc
I would try muriatic acid. I don't mean to just dump it in the tank, but get some of the crud in a plastic bucket and try the acid on it. As always use eye and skin protection. If it works then dump the acid in the tank.
Therre is a tar like substance on the dipstick tube, when I shine a ight down into the tank there is gunk on the inside of the tank that I can see, the screen in the top of the tank is plugged solid with the stuff, there are so many baffles in the tank, if I"d pressure wash inside I'd get a fraction of the stuff out and not in the area it needs to be removed from. I can remove the tank from the machine, no problems there but I"m not sure if the muratic acid is even an option inside a steel tank, I've use that many times in copper pipes. I will definately check it out with my plumbers locally to see what they think, as for pressure washing, I'm not thinking that is a viable options with the baffles in it but we may end up trying it anyhow. Does anyone know how there came to be a tar like substance in the tank in the first place, just sitting for so long the fuel became tar? The dozer runs, we've cleaned the old fuel out and changed filters, by shining a light inside the tank, towards the bottom of the tank is cleaner than at the top, which makes no sense to me at all, I'd think just the opposite would be the case, the tube the dipstick runs is really bad, we rigged up a wand small enough to run down that and used diesel fuel to wash that out somewhat. Niext question I have, will diesel fuel sloshing inside the tank wash this stuff off and then in turn plug the filters, but at least we'd clean the tanks that way, my fuel supplier doesn't know, but was thiinking with enough filter changes this might be the case, he was beyond baffled as to how this occured, he claims if its from fuel left in for years, the bottom would settle out with sludge, not the top, its not rust so its not from moisture, his only explaination was whoever ran the machine, just put a little fuel it at a time and didn't move it much to get the sloshing effect to clean the tank and the residue so to speak, broke down over time to create the tar like gunk at the top and in the areas that didn't get much fuel, sounded plausable to me I guess, he was just guessing himself. But now how to get it out without causing a lot of damage to anything is the question. Thanks for the replies, any idea however stange it maybe, is welcomed.
Randy, the tar like substance is probably the algae/bacteria just like I had. Consider a degreaser followed by high volume steam. Or fill it with degreaser/water and boil it then flush, flush, flush. There is probably so much contaminant it will plug the filters within minutes. I had no choice but to go to the extreme to get as much "tar" out as possible. It was a real PITA but now problem solved.
We had a bad fuel tank (set for 5+ years) and we tried power washing the tank and it didn't do a great job. As soon as we started moving the crane, the sloshing of diesel in the tank, and its cleaning action would clog the filters right away. It took several times of cleaning and filters before it worked through the system. If the tank is easy to remove, I'd be tempted to take it off and cut one end open. Then you could really get at it with the power washer and then weld that end back shut when you're done. It is so difficult to clean, fill the tank with fuel, it clogs the filters, then you're broke down, and never in a good spot. Then you have to try to drain all the fuel again, and do you dump it, or filter it and shove it back through the machine. I hate dumping expensive fuel, but filters and injectors aren't cheap either. It seems like a never ending battle. There is a kbs fuel sealer, its for sealing rusty tanks, they have a cleaner that your supposed to use before sealing. I think the cleaner would take out your gunk, but it gets expensive to coat a tank of that size. I've helped a guy who restores antique cars, and he uses it to seal up the old rusty tanks because he can't get new tanks. It does the trick on those.
Ok, you said you wanted ideas.... : This comes from a page for getting rust out of smaller gas tanks like those mounted on motorcycles, snowmobiles or lawn mowers - put a cup or quart or 2 (depending on the size) of diesel in and a handful (1 or 2 dozen) of hex nuts and shake the **** out of it. The nuts will act to agitate and loosen the rust/varnish/crud and it will suspend in the diesel. Pour it out and repeat until clean. Your tank is bigger and too big for a human to shake that would result in any of the action mentioned above (I am pretty sure), since you said you could remove it, do so. You need to induce some long lasting/heavy duty vibration to the tank and you could use either a dump truck bed vibrator or the mechanism off a small plate compactor. Weld a plate to the tank so the vibrator can just be bolted on (the plate would stay on the tank permanant) r Here is the type of bed vibrator I'm talking about: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Truck-Star-...=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item2572d852d2 Now just suspend the tank in the air with a chain from a loader/hoist/whatever so as to not dampen the vibrations, throw in some nuts and a couple gallons of diesel and vibrate away. Rotate the tank so the side where the sludge is accessed by the nuts. You could also use ceramic media but if you use steel nuts they could be retrieved with a telescoping magnet. You would just be making a vibratory tumbler on steroids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-MlLmk9VZs Not real cheap, fast or easy, but I am sure it would be effective. You said you welcomed strange ideas!! So there!
leisureexpress, I'll have to admit, that one is a new one on me, I'd have never came up with that one. The tank holds something like 1215 gallons and from what I can see in it, there must be at least three baffles inside, maybe more. So far we've opted for the lazy way to do it, pour some diesel in the tank and go run the machine, let the fuel sloshing clean the tank out, can't say its the most sucessfull, but for now, we're doing two things, stalling time to remove the tank and do the job and getting some work done with the machine in the process. We haven't had a lot of time to devote to the project, only about ten hours of run time so far and only one filter. Winter is coming sooner than I need it to come, maybe I'll have some more time to work on it then, keep the ideas coming and again, don't hesitate to offer the strange one's, I"m always open to ideas, who knows maybe that silver bullet will come along, the one that has virtually no work, no waste and super results. While tossing around different ideas, someone offered this one as an option, I didn't know so I'll run it by you guys, it goes as follows, remove the tank, lay it on the ground, pour in five gallons of parts cleaner, roll the tank some every few hours and dump out the old and put in new a few times till the inside is clean, any ideas will it work? I"ve been thinking about it the last few days, can't seem to come up with a reason why it might not work, its a steel tank same as the can it comes in and it'll clean the parts slicker than anything why not a tank inside, haven't had the guts to try that one either yet, nor the time. Toss it around some and give some ideas why I shouldn't try it.
some good old carb cleaner would work, but the good stuff is long gone. Methylene chloride I think. it was.
Yea thats what I was told anyhow, to use the carb cleaner you soak parts in overnight, a friend pointed this out to me, haven't figured out why not to give it a try, just haven't had time to do it yet, it might not be the cheapest idea but should be the fastest and easiest though.
Methylene chloride is readily available at lot of stores and is a powerful paint stripper. I have used it a few times, always outdoors. BUT, it creates deadly fumes when it evaporates. There are 13 documented deaths connected to its use. Here is a link to a must read article if you are considering using it. http://pibillwarner.wordpress.com/2...s-3-premium-stripper-available-at-home-depot/
I'm not sure it will work on diesel, but I clean the tar like sludge from old gasoline using MEK. The last one I did was on an old SA200 Lincoln welder. I made a plywood panel that bolted onto my compact tractor wheel, dumped in a gallon of MEK and a handful of nuts and bolts and used the tractor for a few days, drained it out, flushed with water and dishwashing detergent and did it the second time. Second time it was spotless. Recoated the inside of the tank, and I'm still usng it today.
Here's one to get you by to finish the job. Screw the the discharge line out of the bottom of the fuel tank, solder a piece of copper tubing in so it creates a standpipe about two inches tall, screw it back in. You won't be able to get all of the fuel but just don't let it get that low. All of the crap will stay on the bottom of the tank till you can remove it.
An update on the ordeal, we've been changing filters and even learned a few things along the way, my filter canister was totally plugged with the tar like substance about three inches thick on the bottom, we scraped a bunch of it out and went to the experts, several mechanics, a parts supply guy and several fuel guys, they all came to the same conclusion, its got nothing to do with anything fuel related. I said before it looks like tar, you can scrape it, roll it into a ball and when at room temperature its not really sticky, warm it up and it flows or oozes and drips. only one guy had any explaination at al to what it was and I can't say I can argue with his idea, he thinks its liquid road tar, his only explaination was maybe a former employee was upset and dumped some in it at one time, maybe, nobody else could come up with anything else to explain it. Now for the educational part, steam cleaning does nothing, and I mean nothing to even attempt to get it out of the filter housing, gas is about the same thing, anything we tried the parts guy had or even heard of is worthless to remove it. The only thing so far is carburator cleaner will somewhat disolve it over time, we did get the inside of the housing clean and now we are attempting to get the float tank, smaller tank beside the filter housing clean, we used a screw driver to peel about four inches of the goo out of the bottom of that tank and nobody has any idea other than carb cleaner to use on the big tank, all the lines and fittings are covered in the stuff and when the engine is warm, it melts and puts it into a suspension and it flows like a liquid. I know we tried to heat the filter housing with a torch to see if it melts, which is does and you can pour it out...................somewhat, but as soon as it cools, it turns to playdough again, we rolled it into balls the size of golf balls and you can roll it anywhere, its not really sticky when cold unless it cools to the surface, then it takes a putty knife to get it off. So armed with that knowledge anybody have any experience with road tar or any substance simular to that? I'd guess maybe about 10 gallons were dumped into the tank at one time, I'm guessing a long time ago and the prior owner just kept changing filters on a regular basis. Fitlers do catch the stuff, but when you cut them open the paper is literally a wad of goo, if you do it when the engine is warm, the stuff drips out like warm taffy, once its cold, you can't do anything with it.
Dude...what size dozer is this? mistyped? This sounds like a long term project. I would consider buying or even making some sort of filter contraption that you could use common and inexpensive materials for the filter that is easy to change out.
Oops a tying mistake, its a 125 gallon tank I think, according to the book, it has a smaller float tank and then the older cartrige type filters on it. After yesterday I give up, the entire fuel system is going to be dismantled and if we can't get the junk out of the tank, I'm looking for a different replacement tank. I've only got a couple days worth of work for the dozer on this job and we're done for a few weeks with the machine, after what we went through yesterday, its now sitting in the middle of the jobsite and dead where it sits, we can't even get it to run long enough to get it to the road to load it up....... so its getting dismantled as is where is. We're putting new hoses on everything, the pumps coming off to be sent in to be checked over, both tanks are coming off along with the filter housings. Does anyone know how these systems work with the float tank in them, can a fllter system be installed between the big tank and the float tank to catch the stuff, yesterday we kept plugging the float mechanism and starving the filters for fuel. After cleaning the filter cansisters out we thought we could run the machine to finish the job for the few days and get it back home to work on, it ran almost a half hour total all day, after it warmed up it got some more stuff in both the float tank and the filter housings again and shut me down, after that the float valve was gummed up three times and is now again not working, yet you look in the main tank and you can see the bottom of the tank and thats fairly clean, just the top and sides are bad with the crud. We dumped the float mechanism in a gallon can of carb cleaner and after an hour it was pretty clean, just some brushing and it worked great, we even used carb cleaner on the float tank and that looked good, I"m sure its back to pretty bad again now. We drained some fuel out of the main tank and it flows fine, no debris or crud comes out at all apparently till the engine and fuel get warmed up, the bottom of the main tank is clean, I can see the outlet and the sump in the tank is perfectly cleaned out and shiny, how it can gum up everything in a matter of minutes is beyond me, we even cleaned the hoses out to make sure it wasn't coming from there but that didn't help either, we blew everything dry before putting it back together. When I bought the dozer and did the prebuy, I took all the oil samples and checked everything over and miraculously the fuel tank was full to the top of the cap, all the oil samples came back great and it wasn't a high priced dozer at all, but I commented to my wife at the time, I'd never seen anyone fill the fuel tank that full, with the clip in place I couldn't pull the screen out to even look at that, guess I now know why, my sons are taking this all in stride and even though I didn't have a sense of humor yesterday they still did, my oldest boy offered me half of what I'd paid for the dozer, and the youngest said he'd wait me out till late afternoon and get it for "free to a good home".
Randy, I’m curious as to the make and model of your dozer, for no particular reason really. Pics would be nice too. You know how we all love pics. I’m just thinking out loud and it may not be worth the time but here is a thought. Get yourself a pump, a way to heat the fuel up, and build a large filter. I don’t know how to safely heat the fuel but maybe like a coiled pipe heater similar to a kerosene fired steam cleaner. Not too hot of course but enough to make the tar flow. Maybe you could use cheap pleated furnace filters in a big tub or a 5 gallon bucket with some kind of filter material in a concave shape. If you can see and hit the sides of the tank, a handheld pressure nozzle on the output of the pump will speed things up nicely. Maybe there are companies out there with a similar setup for cleaning out tanks?
Its a late 70's model komatsu d85 with a cummins engine in it. I'd post pictures but I'm not up enough on technology to make that work, not that its the sites fault, I"m technology impared as my kids would say. We tried the steam cleaner method on the filter housing, it didn't work, we're thinking the entire surface the tar is on needs to be hot, and then it runs, not really washes away, from what we tried anyhow. The carb cleaner worked great on the smaller float tank, but we also used a brush to scrub it some, haven't figured out how to do that with the large fuel tank yet, we're still giving that some thought. We did buy a few more gallons of the carb cleaner and plan to take the tank off and just dump some in and let it sit overnight to see what that does. The stuff is hard to explain, if its warm, its sticky, if its hot it drips and once its on your fingers, nothing safe to handle takes it off, if its cold you can roll it into a ball, once its warm it goes soft and melts into a puddle again. As for anyone who cleans tanks, I've asked and nobody locally knew of anyone, most had no idea what I had in the tank in the first place, let alone how to get it out.
Here are the pictures from Randy88:
If it becoms flow able when hot could you stick the tank on a couple outdoor propane turkey fryers and let it run out the drain? After draining/washing the fuel out of course.
By looking at the pictures does anyone know what the stuff might be, we came up with some tar material, like hot tar they use to fill cracks in the road, I"ve never been around the stuff before if that's what it is, how do those people clean their equipment up?? Anyone with knowledge of that type process, please chime in. When the stuff is hot, it steaks long thin slivers, like human hair strands, off and flows with the fuel till it settles out or gets caught in the filters, we're guessing it was done to the tank years ago and over time it still hasn't gotten it all out and I don't know if we ever will end up getting it all out either. There has to be some product made specially for removing this stuff, just we haven't figured out what that is yet, carb cleaner does work but it helps to scrub it some to remove the film layer on the metal surface. We thought if we heated the water to scalding should be about the same as a steam cleaner, which did nothing but basically splatter it around, not sure if heating the whole tank would achieve much more, if anything. Just a guess here but we think that the sloshing of the fuel being hot washes slivers off and somewhat stays in suspension with the fuel till it gets stuck somewhere or settles out, like in my float vavle or filter housing and filters. If we let the fuel cool off, we can drain perfectly clean fuel out of the tank, the bottom 1/4 of the inside of the tank and bottom are basically clean, so after almost 25 hours of running it, we haven't gotten enough off the sides or top of the tank for it to settle on the bottom at all, so its not like we'd heat it up and it would settle completley off the top and sides and end up in a layer at the bottom of the tank, we're thinking it took years to wear it off the clean portion of the tank, unless someone can offer another explaination? Thank you leisureexpress for putting my pictures up for me so people could see what it looks like
A trick i learned years ago to make a hillbilly steam cleaner was to hook your pressure washer up to the outlet of your hot water heater. Turn the tank temp up to melt flesh and try that. WARN everyone in the house what your up to and remember to turn it back down. If you could find a radiator shop with a big enough hot tank to dip the tank that would work also. If you could stick a mirror in the tank and shine a light in there to find out exactly where the build up is you might be able to use a weed burner on the outside to heat the crap and get it near an outlet or loosen it to be brought out with fluid.
If you can't find a way to clean it out, either get a second hand tank from a wrecker or make a new tank.
Duallie, we have shined a light inside the tank, there is a layer covering the entire top 2/3rds of the tank, we're not sure how thick it is, guessing maybe 1/4 inch thick, as for the hot dipping it in a radiator shop, does anyone know what they have in the water to clean with besides some debris and anifreeze, is there an actual cleaner chemical in it? Plant Fitter, we're actually considering making a totally new tank, we could cut the bottom off so we have the mounts and also the bunk and lid off the top and just plain start over, to me its looking like the simplest and cheapest, by the time we cut holes in the tank to gain access to scrape it out even using carb cleaner and the cost of the carb cleaner, its looking cheaper to just make a new one. I wouldn't have to handle the chemicals and have to worry about fumes or exposure to those things. Does anyone know where to even look for a used tank off a komatsu dozer?? Or then do I need to worry about how to try to get rust out of an old tank? Do you treat the inside of a new tank with anything special to prevent rust? Or is bare metal the way to go, just flush it out when done building it and put it on the machine? I've built plenty of oil tanks over the years, but not fuel tanks before. Does anyone know why the tops of the older dozer tanks were rounded and not square? Was it reduce sloshing or to reduce the fuel from slamming into a corner of a tank causing stress on the tank over time?? Anyone with experience with this, let me know what you think.
If you make a new tank, it would be a good chance to put a removeable cover plate in the top or side so that you can get in and clean it out in the future. Hopefully you never need to clean out the new one, but it would make it easier if you ever had to.
I've seen some oddball shaped tanks fabricated by companys that specialize in building tanks for boats. That might be an option. You could get the old tank to one of them and have them duplicate it.
Maybe take the tank off the dozer turn the tank upside down with the lid off. Try a what is called a weed burner propane torch and heat it till the crap runs out.Those torches are commonly used by asphalt paving crews. I have seen them used and they are very effective on asphalt parking lots and roads. If it were mine I would cut a good size hole in the top of the tank first for decent access to the inside.
Chatted with the local radiator guy today, he didn't see the stuff, said he didn't need to, as he put it, been there done that, he told me promptly to throw the tank away, the stuff more than likely is a product used for radiator stop leak, a tar substance that came in balls, small enough to drop in the radiator of anything, it was used years back, he wasn't sure of the name anymore, its been years since he's seen it though, he claimed no chemical really works good on it, if used in a radiator the core is junk, unable to be ever be cleaned again, the tank top and bottom of radiators can be lit on fire with a torch to burn the stuff out.............maybe, it usually melts the metal before the tar is burned up totally. He's tried it to remove it from fuel tanks in the past and said it was never sucessful, it'll burn holes in any tank it get it hot enough to melt it or burn it off the surface, no matter how thick of material the tank is made of. I asked about acid and of some sort and he said, no way, he's tried it, carb cleaner and he said it'll only get about half of it off before the cost of the cleaner will exceed the cost of a new tank. His opinion was someone either vandalized the tank by dumping it in or was dumb enough to dump a bunch of it in to fix a leaky tank, either way, it would take 50 years and tens of thosands of dollars worth of filters to ever get a fraction of it out of the tank and system. His advice was to build a new tank, replace every hose and clean out the float tank or light it on fire with the float mechanism removed to try to burn it out of that tank, use plenty of diesel to do it, otherwise replace that tank too. His very next question was, is the dozer running a little hot, I said yes it is and he asked have you looked inside the radiator as well.......................... as my heart sank I told him no not yet and then he said be suprised as to what you find in there as well, some guys just loved that stuff for some reason. He then added beyond its counterproductive traits it did stop leaks quite well, I'll bet the fuel sytem didn't leak anywhere.................nor the radiator either for that matter. I called him because I wanted to know if he could boil my fuel tank out and when I got the radiator out of that dozer when he'd have time to work on it, as they say, somedays you just gotta wonder why you get out of bed. By the photos does anyone think it could be a form of stop leak for a radiator? Has anyone ever seen or used a stop leak that was actually tar balls you dumped into the radiator? I've never dumped anything in for stopping leaks before, I figured if it leaked, we needed to fix the problem not compound it. I'm taking my sample along with me to him when I get the radiator out, maybe next week, so he can see it first hand to verify if it is indeed a form of stop leak. I'll admit this is new one for me, no matter how it turns out.
Bars Leak. Looks like black gooey wood stove pellets- at least it did
Update, we found some stuff to take it off, acetone I think is how its spelled, comes in gallon cans, we poured in four gallons, and let it sit in one postition for 24 hours, rolled the tank over and repeated the process, did the ends and redid the back and bottom, poured out seven gallons of stuff, shined a light inside it now looks clean, pressure rinsed it with some new clean acetone and then with diesel fuel a few times, looks pretty good inside and now to put back on the dozer, am going to give it a try anyhow, we're replacing all the lines in the fuel system, took the injector pump out along with the injectors, waiting to get those back yet and tomorrow we're putting acetone into the float tank again and recleaning that along with the float mechanism. Not sure we've got the problem cured but we got a lot of the gunk out, we're figuring about 3 gallons worth at least, not to mention what we scraped out with a stick, maybe a gallon cans worth, worst stuff I've even seen anywhere, whatever it is, I hope I never see it again in my lifetime.
Im amazed acetone would cut that stuff when the other chemicals couldn't. upside is acetone dosent leave a residue and its actually beneficial when mixed in very low quantity's of diesel fuel.
Looks like tack we use to spray before paving. Maybe someone filled the dozer out of the wrong truck, about two thirds of a tank. We use a citrus cleaner to clean our equipment (and hands for that matter). I cant think of the name right off hand but it cuts the stuff like brake cleaner does with oil. But if the acetone is working then run with it.
For what it's worth, I don't buy the asphalt/tack theory of this stuff because that is quickly dissolved or cut by regular diesel fuel into a thin, brown liquid that washes off easily. Acetone is nasty on plastics but good for stuff like this.
Bars stop leak had a can of rariaror stop leak a few years ago that had what looked like chopped up liquorice pieces in what was like a thin oil substance, the pieces were about 5mm in diamater and about 12mm long, could be that.
If you can find someone that makes biodiesel from recycled vegetabe oil by reprocessing it with methanol alcohol there is your answer. Put bio in the tank and it break down the sludge in fairly short order.
That sounds like a really nasty tank you've got there. I know spending money on a professional diesel fuel cleaning service isn't always viable, but it may be worth it to get over the headache. Since it's such a deeply ingrained problem, it's possible you need biocides or anti-gels, some kind of additives to clean the whole system out, or it's just going to continue to fester. The cost of filters is quickly going to outweigh the cost of professional help.
We put the tank back in, new hoses on everything, the injection pumps been done along with the injectors, seems to have helped, but we haven't run it long enough to know for sure, haven't replaced any more fuel filters thought, so thats a good sign for now, the only places we couldn't get clean with the acetone were the baffles in the tank, not sure but maybe time will take care of them with a few filter replacements, we'll have to wait to see. Thanks for all the input everyone had, still not exactly sure what it was, but if I never see it again ever, I'll be really happy.
Seen on Texas car wars baking soda or vinegar they might mix them did not try yet or look up on net.
I went through this EXACT problem this summer on my ford backhoe that had been setting for years, all the research I came up with pointed to BIO diesel. I too used acetone to loosen the gunk up and then steamed the tank as clean as I could, so far no problems. you guys are correct the stuff looks like road tar. On another note I only buy my fuel off the delivery truck so I can get pure red diesel.... None of that bio CRAP for me.