I have a D6C with a D333 engine. When it gets real cold outside it sure has a hard time starting. Turn on the glow plugs for 3 minutes and use some ether and after several attempts it finally starts but runs real rough for a while. Don't know whether its my glow plugs or whether I should get a block heater. My thinking is it can't be good for the engine to run cold and rough like that, but a cat mechanic I met told me he's never seen a block heater on one here in Oklahoma. So my first question is what does everyone think? Should I find a way somehow to warm the engine or should i suspect that my glow plugs are bad since it starts great in cold weather? My second question is where would I find a block heater if that is the solution?
I had a D6C up in northern Manitoba where it can get chilly at times. It would always start at -25 C after sitting overnight. Once it got colder than that I would plug it in. Cat as well as numerous jobbers can supply you with a circulating heater that does the trick and are pretty easy to install. I always had an arctic type oil such as 0W 40 which makes a world of difference. Might be overkill for your part of the world. Ether and glow plugs don't mix. I'm guessing your glow plugs aren't working or you'd have found out the hard way when squirting ether onto those hot glow plugs. Good luck with it!
Someone makes an oil pan heater that magnetically attaches to the pan, and then you plug it in like a regular block heater. I don't know if that would work, or if you can even access the oil pan without a whole lot of hassle. Otherwise, you may be able to get a heavy duty 10W-30 diesel engine oil for it. We get ours from our local co-op, and run that in the tractors in the winter months. Otherwise we run 15W-40 the rest of the year. Unless dozer engine blocks are different than ag tractors, all you should need to do is find the freeze plug(s) that are easily accessible. All our block heaters replace 2 freeze plugs with a different plug with a heating element in the middle of it. I don't see why CAT couldn't provide you with one. Other equipment must use that engine also, in less than warm enviroments, and I can't see Cat not having any type of block heater for it for use in those climates.
I can,t beleave it would get that cold on okla.Try a little lighter engine oil for easeir turn over.Really sounds like a little work on enjectors might help.
Like Tripper said starting fluid and glow plugs don't mix, my guess would be fresh glow plugs would make a big difference also you can test the harness leads with a 24V test light to be sure all plugs are getting heated
Thanks for the advice guys. Yeah oklahoma isnt all that cold, I think the average temp in january is only in the 20's, with the record being -27. Ill have to test out those glow plugs.
Guys using starting fluid on an older precombustion chamber Cat engine such as is in Balzomedic's D6 poses absolutly no problem The starting fluid never comes into contact with the glow plug .The problem is with air intake heater (type glow plugs) spray starting fluid in them look out craps gonna fly. but I do agree Check your glow plugs Ill bet the wire that connects to them at the back of the valve cover is broken at the connector . your D6 should start well at 20 if plugs are working unless you have other problem such as low compression .
Never thought about ether causing a problem with glow plugs, but I can see how you'd get pre-ignition. So, since the glow plugs on a D6c turn on while cranking (whether you preheated them or not) should ether never be used?
Looks like PAcattech answered my question before I could ask it....(my D6c is a pre-cup 3306) Funny thing about my glow plugs...if one goes bad instead of just creating an open-circuit the dang things will dead short and pop the circuit breaker...go figure. Thought about starting my D6 today to push snow (got about 16" yesterday)...the temperature was about 0° F this morning. How long should the glow plugs be heated at that temp?
I used to live in southern Kansas not far from the Oklahoma line. People there laughed at the cord hanging out of the front of my car that I'd brought down from Canada. They joked about it being an electric car. One way to tell if the glow plugs are working is to watch the amp gauge in the instrument panel. When you use the glow plugs, the needle should drop about half way between the middle and the far left side of the gauge. At least that's the way it is on my 3406. If one or two are burnt, it won't drop as far. If you know the machine and how much current the glow plugs draw, that's an easy way to tell if all or most of the glow plugs are working. If you want to install an engine heater, the circulating heaters that fit into a hose are relatively easy to install.
Well PA, as Tim Wilson sings, "I Might be Wrong", but pretty sure that damage from ether injected as it's drawn into the intake and onto the glow plug isn't a good thing. I've seen things like cracked rings, blown intake manifold gaskets and so on from using it. I don't ever use ether under any circumstances any more. I prefer to have all systems going properly including glow plugs, block, pan, circulating, propane or diesel engine heaters working. The old stuff such as 12E Cats, 48 A's and the like could handle almost any kind of mistreatment. The newer stuff just doesn't seem to like that. Just my opinion but I'd sure like to hear why you think it's ok. I haven't learned a darn thing today so might just be the time!
In the Cat glow plugs we used to figure about 7 amps per plug. That used to figure out at around 40 amps. I checked individual plugs with an ohm meter. As I recall if they were bad they usually shorted through. There would be no resistance at all. A good one should have some resistance but I don't remember how much. It was pretty common to lose one and I usually didn't change them in sets. Good Luck!
Tripper you need to read what I said again your pretty much saying the same thing I did balzomedic's D6C is and older machine with precombustion chambers just as the 12E you refered to. starting fluid sprayed into the intake on these older machines never comes into contact with the glow plugs . the glow plugs in precombustion chamber engines basicly begins to burn the diesel fuel being injected the air ether mix never contact glow plugs in these types of engines. I also said that "craps gonna fly" is a very bad thing I completely agree with you that the other things you list are great and should work I can also tell you after 25 years on working on Cats I have never seen starting fluid used CORRECTY cause any engine problem . I can also add that almost every machine my dealership sells is equiped with an ether injection system factory installed they are controlled by the engine computer when they inject starting fluid you cant even tell its being injected . Basicly heres my oppion starting fluid used sparing IN a CAT is ok and NEVER be used if your machine has air intake heater type glow plug if anyone is not sure if there machine has air intake heater dont use starting fluid
Power Draw. The Power draw on the Heater (glow ) plugs is 5 amps per plug, so a 4cylinder engine like 3304 Cat will show a 20 amp drop on the amp meter, a 6 cylinder engine will show a 30 amp drop, often when the trip fuse pops out the heater rail wire/s are a good place to start looking for trouble, on the Ether question, Cat fitted this starting option even to the High Drives on the D.I. engines so it cannot be a snag if it is used in the correct method, the engine should start with just the use of the heater plugs but a lot depends on motor conditon on a good day above freezing, cranking speed etc, parking the tractor out of the chill wind is always a good move,but I dont want to tell you crap you already know. Best of luck tctractors
Good explanation PA, thanks! Does it ever get cold enough there for ether to be required?
Hi I'm new to this forum, but it looks to bee an great please too learn about machines. I just bought me a D6B. What sort of cold starting aid can I find on it? Sorry about my bad language skills Thanks for any response Joern
Hopefully someone else who knows more than I do can set us all straight on the situation, but I have always been told not to use the glow plugs for more than 15-20 seconds at a time. Then you would try to crank it. Repeat if necessary. I was under the impression that keeping them on for something such as 3 minutes could damage them.
workin' from memory but I think the instruction plate on my 67 d5 says; 60and below 1 min 40+- 2 min 30 and below 3 min plus either? not sure but I think I am close. don't know if holding excessively will hurt the plugs but It will pop the dash breaker. by the way how much are new glow plugs? Oh and don't use either with a man heater .my brother did it on a farm tractor when he was younger and even dumber. sent the precleaner into orbit and caught the element on fire (smoke and ash into the intake not good)
I spent a lot of years on dirt spreads in the winter. I quickly learned that by watching other operators starting dozers with glow plugs not one of them ever held them more than 20 or 30 seconds before trying to start them. That quickly defeated the glow plugs . Especially on the older D8s and D9s. I always looked at my watch while holding the glow plug switch until I hit the starter switch. It wasn't long and I didn't need a watch to know how long to hold the switch. The other thing I found was to not have the throttle wide open. That seemed to flood the engine until all the cylinders were firing. I also held the glow plugs on until after the engine started and was running smoothly. I never in all that time saw a piece of equipment I was running have to have the glow plugs replaced when I used that method.
Fifteen or twenty seconds may work well if it is not very cold out. But the engine will struggle a lot less to start if one uses the glow plugs a little longer in colder weather. A minute or so usually works well in below freezing temps. I'd be curious to know what Cat says about applying the glow plugs for two or three minutes.
The precup motors all used the glow plugs for multiple minutes. Cat actually used a 24 volt glow plug so the long heating time didn't damage them. Newer engines like the 6.9 and 7.3 diesels in the Ford pickups used a 6 volt glow plug in a 12 volt system. It heated fast but anything over thirty seconds usually killed the plugs. It all comes down to following the instructions in the operation and maintenance manuals for each machine.
I use to have a old Allis that was crankey to start in cold weather. Bought one of these real small 1500 watt box heaters, would set it next to the injector pump, with a tarp thrown over it for about 15 minutes and would start every time. Would never use either on anything, keep a can of wd-40 for that, not nearly al likely to do any damage.
1000 watt block heaters work great for my loader, plug in all night long before a snow storm here in NH.
Okay, so today I used a voltmeter and checked all the wires coming into the glow plugs. Each one read about 16v when I turned the switch on. I have a 24v system. I know they at least work a little because I have used them before with noticable results. But still I think it shouldn't be that hard to start when its not even below zero...... By the way I left them on for 2-3 min because there is a guide on the dash with the following scale: Above 60 degrees...None Below 60 degrees...1 minute Below 30 degrees...2 minutes Continue heating until engine is running smoothly. Since it was about 10 degrees that day I figured 3 min couldn't hurt.
one of its few good uses wd-40 I agree, I always keep a can of wd-40 around just for that reason, It's not worth a darn for a lubricant or penetrant but it'll start a diesel. We had an 85 ford diesel that got hooked on it and would not start no way shape or form until it had it's wd-40 fix..... lol If and when I use ether I,d always start turning the motor over before applying ether, seen to many use it before they hit the starter...which puts an initial load on the batteries and starter and sometimes will lock an engine plumb down. .
I was at the Cat dealer yesterday getting a new transmission pump and I went ahead and found out a little info on the glow plugs. Originally it came with a metal wire lead assembly or something like that, and wires branched off to each glow plug. What is on there now is just some gerry-rigged wire with spliced on leads going to each glow plug, so that very well could be my problem. Is there a way to test the actual plug without taking it out? I just tested the wire and each plug was getting approx 16 volts.
I bought the wiring rail for my D6... think it was about $75 I suppose you could test them by pluging in one at a time and see what current it draws on the guage. On mine the bad ones seem to always dead-short and will pop the circuit breaker.
My machine is pretty old and that meter doesn't work. I think i will replace that wiring harness anyway, I don't like shoddy electrical work.
Here is one way I have use to help isolate bad glo plugs. I have one of these cheap hand help gun type info-red tempature guns that you can buy at Harbor freight for around $30. I take a reading at each glow plug before cranking and take another one just after you let off the key or switch to turn the glow plug on. Should get a temp. differance if it is working. Of course the only real way is to disconnect it and check for a amperage draw.
When you say disconnect it and check for amperage draw, im guessing you mean by reading the guage, unless there is another way. My guage is broken so I will probably try that heat gun.
Balzomedic- As D6c says, mine have always shown a dead short. On my Fords, I can take a 12V test light connected to batt pos. Touch the glow plug connection, and the light will light up on the dead shorted ones. You must isolate it from the wiring before you do this, or any short will cause a light.
The Best Way This heater plug thing needs sorting in CAT Style, the best and most sensible way of sorting it is by removing all 6 Glow plugs, then wire them to a battery charger set on 24v at the lowest setting, you can use a 12 volt charger it just takes a bit longer, with a live to the top and earth to the body, the glow plug will soon warm up, all you need to see is the tip smoking a bit you dont need to get them glowing like chunks of Coal, as I have already said on the tractor Ampmeter you should see a 30 amp drop when all plugs are working correctly, failed plugs go open circuit only, the test light Will Not light,this is a very simple task to repair, dont forget 5 amps per plug "draw"or discharge, oh and CAT 3406 motors are direct injection, not fitted with glow plugs. Dont use a set of Batterys to test the plugs as you will ether hurt yourself or start a Fire??? get it done tctractors ps test one plug at a time.
You should be able to use a ohmmeter to measure the resistance in each plug. http://www.doctronics.co.uk/meter.htm Mvh Joern
Thanks for the explanations guys, Im learning alot about this machine lately. I'll test them with an ohmmeter and figure out a way to test them 24 volts. Hopefully get back in the dirt soon.
cold wx dump trucks I guess Ill piggy back on this thread. Im in eastern NC and for the most part, it doesnt get extremely hard cold here, so we are not used to putting up with the frozen air and brake lines. I just wondered what everyone in the cold climates do to prevent this. The biggest issues I am having is the lift axle lines freeze up at night. I do drain all the water out of the tanks and the air dryer seems to be working. I did disconnect the line going to the air tanks and put some air brake antifreeze in them, I guess Ill find out in the AM, if it helps Thanks for any help
Willis, not to insult you but have you tried to add some brake line antifreeze, we change our cartridge filter on the air dryer every year going into the fall. You might want to find the valve that controls the lift axle and check to see if the screen on the exhaust ports has some debris in the screen. Hope this helps.
freezing I thought I had wrote i put some of this in the air tanks (maybe I didnt) I guess the problem is the lines get water in them and overnight the 20 degree wx, freezes them up. Yes I know, 20 degrees is warm to some of you guys LOL Where and how did you add the brake antifreeze? How much? Thanks
Well I would fine a line after the air dryer and loosen to add some anti freeze. Don't for get to check the valve and the exhaust to make sure it doesn't have water setting there and freezing.
It is a big help to drain your airtanks every day I have found.That means to open the petcocks and leave them open overnight,not just bleeding off the moisture. The trailer has its own tank that needs to be drained too because it will not drain back into the system once charged.The petcocks will thaw out after the air starts passing through them if they are froze but usually the compressors pass enough oil to keep them lubricated.If you happen to miss a day the system will accumulate moisture and it sometimes takes a few days to get it dried out again. I have observed these things by being the only driver of a vehicle in a fleet populated with other drivers with less discipline about proper maintainance of their brake system and/or having some other driver on my assigned truck for whatever reason.I did not always drain the trailer tanks daily but if you start having problems with brake lockups you know where to look.Ron G
Alright, took all the glow plugs out and tested them 1 at a time. I just took the wire off of all the plugs, took the plug out, hooked it back up to the wire, (I tested each plug on the same 1st wire) and grounded the body of the plug. Then I just turned the switch and watched it smoke. Seemed to me it worked pretty good. So the plan now is to get that new wire rail and 1 new plug and hope it starts better.
Good idea
Anyone know if it is possible to buy ether capsules for the old cat d6?
cold start with glow plugs use WD40 not ether.
As was stated earlier ether is not a problem with a precumbustion type engine even using glow plugs. My D6 is a precombustion chamber engine. If its a question of whether WD-40 is better in general, thats another matter. From what I have read WD-40 sounds a good alternative to starting fluid, so I may start using that.
WD 40 is not near as volitable as either. I have a JCB 212 backhoe and if it wont start, you cannot get to the air filter to spray a shot in it. The bucket must be up. The only thing I can get too is the external dust catcher and by the time WD goes through the air filter, it wont start itl, so I have to give it a small shot of either. I went to start it the other day and it gave me fits. I had a block heater in it but found out it was not working. I think it is loseing its prime over a time. I know ther fuel pump should pick it up but it just wont turn over fast enough for the fuel pump to pick it up. So if it doesnt start on the first 4 or 5 cranks then it is a bear to get running. I cant turn the key and squirt the either at the same time. I am very catuious about using either. Thinking about putting on a elec. pump.
Yeah I have used ether many times without any problem. 5 of my glow plugs were working so if the ether came in contact with the plugs I would have known it. I just figured I would try WD-40 since it is less volatile. Might find I like it better.
Figured it out! I don't think it was my glow plugs after all. I discovered a very small fuel leak and I think what was happening was that after I would shut it down it would slowly leak out letting air into the line. It wasn't a problem if I used it within a few days, but after I found that leak I realized that it was harder to start the longer I would let it sit. As coincidence would have it I think the few times this had happened it just also happened to be a cold day which threw my troubleshooting process off. But after I replaced the fuel line and bled the system it fired right up, no ether needed.
I set up my dozer and skidder with Aeroquip hydraulic connections in line on the heater hose, and the same thing in my pickup, with 20' of heater hose coiled up on a bungee in the engine compartment of the truck. Pull in to the job in the morning and plug the truck into the skidder or dozer as necessary. Let the truck idle while the skidder is fueled, greased, saw chains sharpened, etc. The hot water from the truck circulates through the skidder/dozer motor, and in 15 minutes, it starts up like summertime. Really saves on starters, batteries, etc. You still hase to let the trannys warm up, but it really eases the strain on the motor.
Hi Basecamp. Well ya got me sitting here trying to think of a downside? As long as all of your antifreeze is compatible (I.M.O. a very small and unlikely concern) I can't find a thing except "why didn't I think of that". Using this idea you could make a remote heater for just about anything. On my Deutz air cooled SSL maybe I could wrap a couple coils of tubing around the oil pan to warm up the oil? How long have you been doing it? I think that is a great idea. Thanks; John
About 25 yrs. The one small downside is that you lose a bit of coolant each time, maybe an ounce, so you have to top up once in a while. When I set it up, the only hydraulic fitting I could find that worked under very low preesure was Aeroquip. There may be something else out there by now.
a little coolant is a small price, we used to have portable chillers at the plant i worked at . I think it required some kind of quick connect. i will look into it.