Sort of surprised our Cat with 3126 does not even have a block heater, or I can't find it. I don't see one in the schematic either. That surprises me as cold starts can be a bit torturous. I would say the coldest I would ever have to start is +10F. As far as getting the machine to start, I am certain it will fire up, but I always like to get a little heat in the engine if I can. Just curious if you guys have seen any fuel system or engine/pump issues related to cold weather starting?
Surprisingly enough the cold weather option for a lot of Cat excavators is an additional set of batteries and a higher-rated starter motor to get the engine spinning a bit quicker. I’m not necessarily saying that’s what you need though....
I have never had any fuel system problems over the years, but I have killed a few starters. I try to plug stuff in now if its 20F or lower. Even a few hrs can make a big difference. How often do you have to start when cold? If you have power close by it may be worth it to add a block or oil heater. Personally I think cold thick oil is the worst thing for an engine. Starves the bearings for a brief time and pulls very hard on oil pump gears. Most of my big engines have both oil and water heat. I realize my weather can be colder than OK. I really hate starting something when its 0 deg out if its not warmed up a little. Some guys around here use the proheat set up if they are in a remote location. They work really well. Kind of expensive but we all know what it costs to fix anything big.
Post serial number sure a block heater can be fitted How does it start around freezing temp? When it's good and cold small shot of starting fluid is my go to get it spinning aquick sniff and she's going
TS posted on here his preference for using a torch or hot air in the intake, for a quick cold start without the hazard of ether. Truck 3216s had electric air intake heaters. If you install a block heater and let it run for some hours, it starts like it was not even cold outside. If you can't find a factory one, I would think anything you can install in a freeze plug hole would be good enough. Generators have heater hose mounted electric heaters, but I'm not sure about their ruggedness on a moving vehicle.
do you have a pad heater on the oil pan?
Standard practice in my AO to plug at 20F. You have lots of options for adding a block and/or oil immersion heater for that 3126. Look at some Cat truck engine ARR# numbers for the part numbers or the Kim hot start catalog. If you can’t plug it in, at least consider a 5w-40 synthetic engine oil for the winter season.
I use a plug style that screws into the oil pan. I do have a pad style on the Stearman oil tank. Aeroshell 100 gets pretty stiff at 40F Hard to even get temp in it when its cool out. Its nice to have it warmed up right out of the hanger
warm oil in a plane is the bomb My friend flies in AK, and they will suspend operations at -30. They have pad oil heaters, blankets, engine heat systems. You can't get the power down to land without cracking cylinders somewhere.
We typically won't see temps dip to nasty cold all that much and even at that, I try to avoid running machines in it. As I mentioned, I think the 3126 will probably start pretty cold. I tested at about 30F and it was no issue, but it just comes down to engine protection. I don't run enough hours in the cold to justify an oil change just for it. I was just a little surprised Cat didn't at least throw the element in the block as standard. I think most of the old 5.9s like my tractor has just have a cap on the heater terminals so you just get the pigtail if you want to use it. I probably won't hassle with any serious install this winter as we are deep into the season already. I might ask for ideas for the "quick and easy"? I like the idea of a pad heater but that engine is near impossible to access. I am just pondering at the moment. What has happened here is moisture! And some of the small stuff I need to do will probably only happen if I let the ground freeze a bit thus the need for cold weather action. You guys ever see any hydro pump and related issues? I think more than anything, I like to get my engine oil past the "honey" stage for cold starting and the 3126 is a HEUI engine so that can brings more concerns as well as extended cranking without a little heat. I am probably not willing to bump the engine with Ether. I have seen broken rings and such from that. I realize it can be used wisely but I tend to feel the wiser play is thinking ahead and get some heat before starting.
Where i work we try to plug stuff in before we use them if its below 20f but often in does not happen. And if a machine is on a job site with no power then thats that. We just turn the key and hope for the best.
Quick and easy is torpedo heater in the back of your pickup open the engine side doors and let her warm up I wouldn't bother with that above 0 providing things were functioning properly I don't think heaters are standard on anything it amazes me when we get used equipment in Minnesota that has no heater installed, happens all the time
My 7.3 that is a heui will always start in the winter with out plugging it in. Helps if i drop the 15w40 and put 5w40 but the last few years i cant be bothered. My father got a little gmc truck with the small diesel and in the user manual it says "An internal thermostat in the plug-end of the cord may exist, which will prevent engine coolant heater operation at temperatures above −18 °C (0 °F). "
Maybe get a bit of perspective here .... For every machine that is sold into northern MN, AK, etc, how many are sold into temperate & tropical climates where any form of pre-start heating would be completely unecessary..? How logical is a block heater as standard under those circumstances.?
Yep it would make as much sense as installing an air conditioner on a machine that is going to be used in Antarctica!
Then with PacCar it's the Alaska package. For keeping a truck engine constantly warm just setting the cat powered trucks with a retarder can't be beat, 5 psi on the hand valve at idle will keep it warm in the coldest temps. And yes a block heater is available for a 3126.
Zero Start-3500015 block heater
Glow plugs and heater kits originated with the lower compression engines with lower injector pressures. I don't think I've ever seen an engine failure that can be blamed on cold starts unless there was no warm up period prior to putting the machine to work. I've done cold starts on machine inspections down to minus 10 degrees F. on nearly all makes and models of engines. On the stuff built in the last ten years, I've have seen more problems with batteries than the engines. To make it simple, if it won't start without aid at 10 degrees F, you likely have an engine problem.
Thanks guys but as I mentioned, I don't doubt the machine will start in cold temps. The main concern I have/had is related to any damage or wear that could be associated with the cold starts. It does not sound like many folks have really had failures though.
It depends on the engine. Some are very cold blooded. Newer engines are generally better starters.
Oddly, one of the best starting diesels I ever had was a 3208. Just breathe on the starter and it was going. Granted when cold, it would blow a little blue smoke for a bit. The 3126 has longer crank times due to the HEUI but I have yet to see blue smoke out of it. Also funny how good that intake heater works. Fired up with that nasty cold diesel growl, then quickly cleans up as the intake heater brings it to life. But I guess I am totally excluding my little Duramax. That girl will fire off in any temp. At close to 250k miles, it has no blowby and uses no oil. Isuzu nailed that engine platform.
Most of it depends on how long it's been stagnant. Only real damage I've seen is broken rings from ether and those engines had some hours.
Most Japanese diesels of that size are pretty reliable. I had a company Toyota Hilux with the 3.0 D4D common rail engine in it that ran like the proverbial Swiss watch when I got it new and just the same when I handed it back with 175k on the clock.
Here's a cold start, every start.
I fun fall project is trying a new to us machine in cooler and cooler weather to see how it acts then once I find the low point of realitivly easy starting I plug the block heater in and see how many hours it likes before it pops right off I much prefer to give things a overnight plugging in but sometimes that is just not going to happen and its good to know what to expect I'm sure every cold start and any start takes life off how much Who knows never have had a startup failure though we have a few things that don't have an idle setting notably a series 60 Detroit genset touch that little toggle switch it auto cranks and roars to wide open as soon as it hits with about 30,000 hrs on it now I guess it hasnt minded to much engine has never been touched
I don't know. I have no experience with your particular engine. My Cat 3208 starts easily with no heat at all. I've used a hair dryer in the intake on other diesels. A fellow just told me of non burning propane in the intake to encourage it. For years I've used a jet heater aimed at it from a few feet away. My uncle told of a few arm fulls of fire wood soaked in diesel fuel set afire. I'll say heat to the coolant is best. One person I know of removes coolant, stores it in the house, & heats it on the kitchen stove before putting it in the engine. Ether as a last resort, used VERY sparingly.
I had a service call on a cold blooded little Mitsubishi. After diagnosing a failure in the glow plug circuit, I decided I would have a little fun before starting it for good. So I left it disabled. You guys probably all know that these little Japanese diesels will never start without the glow plugs even at 100 degrees. I sprayed propane from an unlit torch, brake cleaner, gasoline, carb cleaner, electronic cleaner and anything else flammable I could find on the property into the engine while cranking and not even a pop. The neat thing was a lit torch in the intake. While cranking nothing, add the torch and it started to fire and take off. Take the torch away and it was back to dead cranking. The torch had to be held there until it achieved some RPM before it would stay running on its own. But as TS alluded to in another thread, some heat in the air (or water) is all it really needs. Everything else (not heat related) is a poor substitute.
I like a heat gun, or hair dryer, remove the air filter and put it directly into the intake. Better still is a block heater.
Two Milwaukee heat guns into the air intake with filter out at Minus 30 Celcius got a small cat excavator going fairly well. There is not danger with regard to intake ribbon heaters with this also. Simon
I heard a story of a North Dakota farmer who kept a tractor at a remote location for feeding cattle, in the old days before easy starting diesels and cheap generators to plug in a block heater. He buried a barrel ten feet deep, drained the antifreeze every time he shut the tractor off, then pumped the antifreeze through the block before starting up again. One other thing to pay attention to is to limber up the whole machine before working, operate all the functions until the cylinders and motors are up to freezing at least, don't just let it sit ten minutes and then break some cold brittle piece of steel on the first bite.
Loggers for years have pumped coolant from their pickup through the engine of a skidder or crawler. I'm told the Ford diesels had head cracking problems from the very cold crawler coolant hitting a hot engine. Also, corruption from one engine spreads to both.
I don't know, but to me, if it is too cold to get a modern diesel started, it is too cold for my aging bones to be outside any how, so no big deal . I do understand if it is how you make your living tho. I used to be on the road for repairs, and worked my fair share in the ice and snow. It seems every time it was real cold and windy the linemen would find a way to break their trucks...yea, they didn't have to work, but I did .
And that is a 2 stroke engine.
If anybody is going to attempt "spit swapping" coolant from your hot pickup to a machine with heater hoses with quick couplers, the best way to avoid cracking anything is to put a valve in one of the lines to restrict the flow at first and keep the hot engine at a higher idle. If you're worried about cracking the cold engine from heating to fast or unevenly, run the cold engine's water pump with a small electric motor, or plumb in a coolant pump to recirculate full flow through the heater hoses while only taking a little hot coolant from the other engine.
I've never done it. Here, ALL loggers drive Ford diesel pickups. I first heard of the practice 30+ years ago. I first heard of cracking pickup heads 2 years ago. Maybe it isn't a common problem. Maybe Ford heads crack anyway?
Logic says 210 degrees coolant in the Ford, 0 degrees coolant in the skidder isn't a tremendous shock.
I used to work at a place that the older cranes were all set up with coolant transfer lines. I don't think they had any of the pickups anymore that were set up to transfer. They also had a small lp coolant heater and pump system that was pretty slick to use instead of the pickup transfer lines. It kind of looked like a turkey fryer burner. We never used any of it when we worked there. We had installed electrical block heaters on everything.
If it was a cast iron boiler, and it's not much different than a cast iron boiler, it would be a big shock. That's why you want to keep both systems circulating while slowly mixing fluids. It's not so much the rapid temperature change that causes the cracking, it's the uneven heating.
The biggest problem we had was that there was never electricity in the woods on the logging sites. In the old days we installed quick couplers into the water jacket on the logging machines circulating warm water from the pickup thru the cold engine via ten foot heater hoses. We installed T's in the heater core lines on the pickup end and shut the heat off to push the water thru the cold engine. 15 minutes was all it took to warm the engines to a comfortable summer starting range even at -20 F which was the stay home temperature. By the time one checked things over the machines were ready to start. The truck temperature gauge would take a pretty good hit when that cold water came back. We never revved the the loggers up until the hydraulics and tranny's had a chance to warm up a bit. Never had any issues with any of the components. Today's world! I cant even find a place on my Powerstroke to connect into the heater lines if I wanted to. Most of the bigger loggers have a light plant with enough power outlets to plug the machines in. The bright lights seem to help keep the vandals at bay a bit to. It is amazing how cold the newer machines will start at with nothing. The 545 Cat Skidders will start at 0 F simply by turning the key. Same for the newer JD engines.
I worked for a place that made bandsaw blades with a water cooled blade welder worth $250K. Owner figured he was saving money turning the heat down at night. He hooked up a kind of elaborate system using a 1500 watt circulating heater to warm up the coolant for the blade welder because it didn't work properly cold. You had to plug it in for 1-1/2 to 2 hours in the morning and the furnace was running overtime to warm the bay up. I don't think he was saving any money.
There was an article about the same as this in a Farm Show paper a while back. This farmer buried 55 gallons of radiator mix below the frost line and circulates it via a 12 volt pump and quick couplers on the top and bottom of the tractor water jacket when he needed to feed at his remote lot. Does not take long to get the engine to ambient ground temp of close to 50 degrees F.
I have no experience with these extreme cold conditions described, but wouldn't this be a much easier fix in an off-grid location? My employer has used the cab (air) heaters for over 20 years with excellent results. I would assume the hydronic version would work as intended as well. BTW...This is one of several sizes offered. https://www.eberspaecher-na.com/fil...a/pdf/EB_Hydronic_D5_C_WEB_READY_01_26_15.pdf
I don't know about easier, and certainly not cheaper, those things are expensive and complicated compared to the other solutions used, including a running a generator to power the block heaters. I'm sure they work wonderfully though, when new.
Delmer, I meant easier as in once it is installed and set it would warm the coolant without hooking anything up. These units can be set to come on at a specific time and have the coolant warm when the shift starts. Because it taps into the fuel and electric system, there isn't really anything else to do after it is set up. Def, not cheaper! They are complex, but we have been using the air heater version for many years without many problems. When they have a problem, just like any computerized device, they have self diagnostic capability.
At my work we have about 50 espars installed on various equipment, with mixed results. When they work, they work great. We usually have them plumbed into a hydraulic tank heater as well, so the hydraulic oil is warmed up some too. I would like to say they work every day without issue, but that would be a lie. The biggest problems are usually caused by the "flat rate" guy installing them. Everything from installing a T to the heater lines to the cab (which will cause a loss of cab heat), to poorly installed fuel lines, causing air ingress. Once these issues are resolved, then the heater needs its turn to act up. They don't like to fire after -25C (-13F). I usually resolve this with a bit of ether to the intake of the espar. Usually fires up with this trick, but defeats the purpose of a timer. The bigger D12 espars fire up better at lower temperatures. If the operator set the timer, and the espar didn't fire after 3 tries, it locks out. So you need to go through the unlocking procedure or buy the scan tool to unlock it. A big part of the issues is the operators using them. They need to run for at least 45 minutes. This gets the heater hot enough to clean its glow pin. A dirty glow pin will not get as hot, and not start the espar easily. Operators tend to forget to use the espar during the summer. Glow pin gets coated in dust, and wont work come winter time. Water pumps seem to dry out and start leaking. We keep about 3 rebuilt units on hand, and just swap them out as needed. Depending on what failed, they may not be worth rebuilding. Even with all the problems, they are worth having. Sometimes there just isn't any easy way to get a machine started in a remote location. We usually shut everything down around -36C (-33F) Metal tends to get rather brittle at that temperature. Usually you just break stuff and blow hoses if you try and work.
My dad modified the block heater on our D4D to take a element out of a hot water tank. I haven't seen it in action but I imagine you wouldn't even need to have the engine running to get the water jacket to operating temp.
A BTU is defined as the required heat to raise a pound of 70degreeF water 1 degree F. An 8 gallon system at 0 degrees F raised to 40 degrees F: 8 gallons Water weighs 8.4 Lbs per gallon 8.4 X 8 = 67.2 40 degree rise 67.2 X 40 = 2688 A 4500 watt water heater element produced 3.4 BTU per watthour 4500 X 3.4 = 15300 15300/2688 = 5.6 5.7/ 60 = 10 minutes approximately That does NOT factor the heat sucking effect of a 1000 LB block of iron, or the cold air surrounding it.
Iron or concrete or wood can be estimated at .2 BTU/ degree so that 1000 LB iron would equal 200 pounds of water. Plug that water heater element into 120V outlet and it will put out 1,200W roughly. Just about right.
My point is it'll work. It won't be quick. I'm no scientist, Hell, all I got is electrical diplomas. My brain says a diesel engine makes ignition temperature by squeezing a piston full of air, squeezing that heat into sufficiently little space to reach ignition temperature. I'm looking at how to get enough BTUs into that cylinder to be squeezed into hot. My brain says heat air. There were brilliant people years before I was born. They figured out ether makes heat, ignition temperature of ether is much lower than diesel/air mixture. Ether is pretty destructive to engines. It is to be avoided. I've had success with a hair dryer, and a heat gun. Both require 120 Volt AC power. I do have an inverter for my truck. I can plug in a hair dryer. Nonetheless, there is no substitute for a block heater. It warms the whole engine. It lessens thermal shock to cast iron, warms oil, warms the cylinders. If your diesel is parked off grid, you can't plug it in to prepare, there are many strategies to fix it. All involve getting heat inside cylinders, without burning something. I wonder if it has been tried to suck air out of an oven? It would be feasible to heat a box full of air to 300 F.
A espar is a million times better. Set the timer the day before, and show up to a warm engine and cab compared to dragging a generator around and sitting there for hours, or risk it getting stolen. It's also great for moving machine in cold weather, instead of having to leave it run on the trailer, I just run the espar. It also eliminates the cold start, while a block heater is great, it doesn't heat the engine up anywhere close to what the espar does. With the espar, the wait to start light won't even come up and the engine temp is halfway up to operating temp already. Mine is still the original unit from 2008 on my hoe, and it ran great the first 2 winters I had it, then the next it starting acting up a bit, and now it needs a rebuild or replaced. But even at $1300, it if lasts even 10 years that's well worth it to me. Probably save that much in fuel, never mind how many hours it reduces on the machine.
Long before I put a block heater in the Bobcat it would start when nothing else would....made for a few miserable days sitting on the backhoe attachment digging up busted water lines at -10F windchill. Ed
You can get propane torpedo heaters that don't require any electricity or you can use a weed burner torch preferably inside a length of pipe (so the flame is contained) to warm up equipment. Depending on the engine, ether used properly is not harmful. A lot of ether injection systems come from the factory.
Yeah, Willie, it will work. I just added some more simple math and mexican wiring will make it a dual voltage block heater from a water heater element. It will work in a water heater tank on 12V but too slow for a block heater. 24V would be roughly 250 watts, so it would help, but not as nice as 4,500. Pretty easy to rig up a "mini boiler" out of a section of pipe to hook up like a tank style heater, fire it with the propane burner or hot coals amish style.
What would be awesome if it would work without too much trouble would be adding extra batteries and an inverter to run the block heater, then recharging those batteries with machine running. I'd imagine on a 200 hoe 2 extra batteries would run a block heater long enough to warm it up, and still have the original 2 for cranking. Take awhile to charge them, but if running it all day wouldn't matter.
Different machine but a Deere with the 6076T engine was old and grumpy starting cold, it has a block heater and ether start, well it had an ether start system from the looks of it. Added in a Katz system, has a thermostat on it to prevent warm use, crank the engine for 10 seconds and if its not hopeful, give the button a beep and it lights off pretty fast. I used the injector nozzle for a smaller engine size and it works just dandy without knocking or clattering.
You pretty much state the way I have experienced it. Warm the air and it will usually start right up. One thing nobody talks about is elevation. A normally easy starting diesel at lower elevations can become cantankerous if you bring it up a couple thousand feet. I had an old 6.9 Ford that always started up at 2000 feet give or take. If I took it up to Reno or Klamath Falls it is 4000 feet and cold it would buck like a bronco and smoke like a steam locomotive for half a minute on a cold start and then be all right. Years later I was changing the glow plugs to the 7.3 system. Lo and behold only 3 glow plugs were working. The rest were all dead. At lower elevations the engine speed of those 3 cylinders firing would bring the others along immediately and all start firing. At high elevations the dead cylinders would not come along right away. I am not opposed to ether in small amounts. The reason it works is that it ignites under compression way easier than diesel fuel. The trouble is when you have shot it in the intake, the time it ignites is uncontrolled. It is always igniting before top center, sometimes way before, and with a bang. If the engine is injecting fuel but the problem is just not enough heat, then a tiny bit of ether burning as the piston comes near top center can supply a tiny bit of heat that it will take to get the diesel fuel spray to ignite and the engine takes off and is happy. If you had a torch it would have started in the same situation. But people get in trouble when they discover that the engine will run on ether alone and they use a constant spray to get it spinning when there is a problem with the fuel system, or they spray a little and nothing happens, so they spray a lot, until there is a puddle in the intake tube, then the engine finally takes off and sucks the whole tube full into the engine like a Detroit airbox runaway. If it does not start immediately with a little sniff, stop and figure out why.
A heater pad for the batteries can make a world of difference. At 32F, you have lost about 20% of capacity and at -20F you have lost half of your battery capacity.
Yes, I should have put that in my rambling above. Cranking RPM is a big deal, something that starts easy with a good battery may never even pop if it is cranking slowly.