So my urea barrel ran empty... first parts store is $180 for a 55 gallon drum,,,, second supplier quote's $179 for 55 gallons plus $250 for the special pump to pump it... They said you have to have the special pump to avoid contamination... they said its very easily contaminated and will wreck your system without this special pump.... so im asking the experts to weigh in on this topic..... or is somebody trying to blow smoke up Grampa's best side?
Stealership I used to work for just used a g.p.i. Transfer Pump like in a pickups skid tank. Don't remember anything special about it but everything that urea touched was corroded.
When you say "urea" are you meaning "DEF"??? Urea is a granular fertilizer product. "Here" it runs from $0.50/L to $1/L depending on supplier and container size. Andrew
Yes DEF
Urea (CH4N2O) is a chemical compound found in human and animal urine, which was the first organic compound synthesized in the laboratory. It is a nitrogen source used in several different solid and liquid fertilizers, as well as numerous chemical compounds and reactions. DEF is 32.5% urea, and 67.5% water.
Gramps, I'm like you, an antique, and like you I know about as much about this modern stuff, including DEF fluid, as I know how to fly a 747, which I don't. But from what I gather about the stuff it's more like a caustic chemical than a simple fuel additive, sounds like an appropriate "chemical resistant" pump is in order.
Well it wasn't so much the chemical resistance they were touting altho they did say it was stainless steel than the fact any other pump would allow contamination. I've ran a couple of barrels of this Def with other style pumps that I had without any problems,,,, but hey, I'll listen if it means learning.
Hey, I'm learning right there with ya bro.
Anything that comes into contact with DEF needs to be stainless steel or plastic. That's what they are referring to as contamination. The DEF corroding a pump that's made of aluminum.
Thanks for the input Shimmy,,,, now i'm gonna have to tear my pump apart and have a looksee inside...lol... it does make sense tho.
What they said. DEF is very corrosive and eats up a normal fuel pump.
I have no experience with DEF, but I have a LOT of experience with ammonium nitrate-urea liquid fertilizer. Anything containing a high percentage of nitrogen is very corrosive to most anything but most plastics and stainless steel. I seriously doubt the DEF could pickup enough from a trip through the pump to be significant contamination, but I don't know for sure. If it sat in the pump it might could. We pump ammonium nitrate-urea through cast iron and aluminum pumps, with no serious corrosion, except where it touches air (oxygen).
Contamination of the wrong sort, and I have NO idea what that would be, might damage or otherwise interfere with the EXTREMELY expensive rare earth catalysts in the exhaust system.... Personally I think they're overplaying the danger, but it might be wise to call whatever dealer applies and price out a new muffler or converter or DPF whichever your engine(s) have in the exhaust stream...... Probably give all of us a heart attack if we knew.
I think the biggest issue is deterring people from grabbing the old barrel pump or fuel transfer pump from out in the shed possibly contaminating your DEF system with oil, fuel, mouse turds, etc........
Well isn't that the theory behind Dpf regens ? To burn oil and fuel out of the Dpf. I can't imagine a mouse turd giving much of a problem a 1000 degrees. The concern must arise from the delivery system of the urea to the Dpf? Just thinking out loud here, trying to figure this out.
Ya' got me Gramps. Only DEF engine I have is the 6.7 in my pickup. I would think the DEF is sprayed with through high pressure nozzles to get it to do it's job. I dread the day we have off-road DEF engines in the fleet.
We got our our 1st 3 DEF machines this year. A 624K loader and 2 A25G haul trucks. I'm tired of the crap already. Only have to add it about once a week but it's just one more thing to deal with. We don't have enough machines on each site to justify a barrel or tote so we stock a ton of 2.5gal jugs at the shop and send it out as needed. We have pickups with it but they aren't a big deal. Only thing that sucks is where Chevy put the filler. The Fords are stupid easy.
I've heard of a coupe stories where urea was poured in the diesel tank on fords. $10000+ to fix it and no warrantee on the repair.
Consider that a tax on stupid people.
have it disabled ,then no worries
Saw pictures of that at a ford dealership. Looked like cocaine had been dumped in tank. In order for ford to not block the warrenty on truck they had to replace entire fuel system and send pics to ford. Customer had to foot the bill.
Well im thinking the DEF system is better than the diesel doser or split injector spraying systems have been,,,, anyways one can hope.
I agree. If someone is stupid enough to pour DEF in the diesel fill, they don't need to be driving in the first place. It's as simple as it gets.
there sure is a lot of people that seem to get gasoline in the diesel tank... the problem I think they are talking bout is cross contaimation like if you used the pump for DEF then used it to put fuel in the tractor!!! YOU HAVE A BIG PROBLEM!! very costly So yes keep the pump for only DEF or you could end up with a very costly repair. have a customer just up the road that is probably the pics of the Ford F450 6.7 liter that had DEF put in the fuel tank. it was very ugly & costly cause Ford don't warranty stupid!!
The DEF fill on a Ford 6.7 has a small blue cap to the right of the BIG green cap on the left for diesel, that was what I was referencing.:cool2
Just got my copy of "Equipment World" and there's an article on DEF, here's the pertinent excerpt on contamination, they're quoting an equipment manager: 7. Contamination control Although it’s widely available, getting DEF to your off-road machines presents a challenge. First you carry the fluid to the equipment. Second, you have to prevent contamination. “It may be counterintuitive, but a truck stop is a clean environment relative to the environment for off-road equipment,” says Van Wyk. “If you handle DEF the way you’ve handled fuel or lube oils in the past there are going to be catastrophic effects.” First is the dirt and dust inherent in any earthmoving or quarry site. If you’re refilling the DEF tank every day or even every week, 52 weeks a year, the opportunity for airborne contamination and dust and dirt ingestion is high. When refilling the DEF tank take care to clean around the fill neck and the dispensing nozzle every time. DEF tanks have only sediment filters and lack the kind of high-efficiency filtration common to diesel fuel and air systems. Another source of contamination are non-standard containers you use to store or transport DEF and funnels you may use to get DEF into the tank. These often have trace amounts of oil, coolant or other machine fluids, or solder, welding or galvanized metals that can also contaminate. DEF should never touch any metal except stainless steel. Also, the pumps, seals, O-rings and fittings on your dispensing equipment have to be DEF-compatible if you’re going to maintain the pharmaceutical-grade purity you need for DEF in SCR systems, Van Wyk says. ISO 22241-3 details the industry-approved standards for handling and storage of DEF. If you’re going to pump your own DEF, make sure the storage and handling equipment you purchase meets this standard. “You don’t burn DEF in the engine like diesel,” Van Wyk says. “You need it to facilitate a chemical reaction with a very expensive catalyst. That’s why any minerals or contaminants that are introduced, even in trace amounts, can have a negative effect on the chemical reaction of the catalyst. Things like zinc, chromium, aluminum, magnesium – it only takes a tenth of a teaspoon of any of these to contaminate 5,000 gallons of DEF,” Van Wyk says. Contamination could damage the catalyst in your SCR system, and void the warranty. It can also cause your system to use more DEF than it should. The catalysts in SCR systems use rare metals and replacing one could cost $12,000 to $15,000. Contamination is of such concern that eventually the industry may decide to mandate closed loop storage and handling system, similar to how draft beer is handled, says Van Wyk. - See more at: http://www.equipmentworld.com/9-things-you-must-know-to-get-a-handle-on-def/#sthash.6vOsumIT.dpuf
YEP!! and the DEF still got put in the wrong tank!!! just cant make stuff foolproof cause nature evolves better fools!!! :Banghead
The burn is designed to clean the dpf but the remnants of what did not burn stay in there. I think the point is over time is if small foreign contaminants are going through the burner that can't be incinerated they stay in there. I am in the UAN and NH3 nitrogen business also. Like Mitch504 said It will destroy anything it isn't compatible with. All those little destroyed particles will eventually end up in the burner. Also the burners are supposed to be taken off and the inside "cleaned" X amount of miles. I have a few trucker buddies that run this emissions crap and have to "clean" them every 2-3 years. Mileage will drop do to too much back pressure. I have been reading that the def urea starts to break down after 6 months of so?
I am an idiot,so have to ask the question....are you all talking about ad blue? There are new dumptrucks and shovels at work that the lads have been pouring stuff from drums into them.A new tank has arrived this week to do the job properly.I share the same oil shed but only use my own oils and have receantly started putting my oil jug and tun dish in a bag separate from theirs. I really do wonder what all this faffing about is costing the industry????The costs will far outweigh the benefits in the long run just adding to the cost per ton of coal,sand,gravel etc,etc. We are taking backward steps.Even the bloody mobile phone doesn't work like it did 10 years ago......
Yes, Ad Blue is one of the product names for DEF. On a side note, what are guys paying for DEF? "Here", it can be anywhere from $0.50/L for 1000L totes up to $1.25/L for 4L jugs. Andrew
I paid $2.60 a gallon in PA last week.
Has anybody come up with 'delete' systems for off-road equipment equipped with DEF systems yet? I've seen it on several 3/4 ton pick-up trucks so it must be a matter of time before somebody comes up with something for earthmoving equipment.
There's also a really good article in the latest Diesel Progress on DEF contamination. Sounds like a large problem that's gonna get worse. Just thinking about the best way to train our operator students on how to top up DEF systems properly. http://www.dpna-digital.com/dpna/september_2014/?pg=49&pm=2&u1=friend#pg49
Hi guys, this thread might be dead, but I still wanted to say a few things. The main concern for DEF contamination is getting mixed with other chemicals or diluted with water. The system actually has a series of replaceable filters, so normal bits of dirt and what-not will be filtered before causing any damage. To a point, I did spend a week chasing an issue before I realized a paper fuel receipt was dissolved in the DEF tank, plugging the inlet. Way more common than foreign contamination, is the DEF itself crystalizing in the system plugging up ports. It's supposed to purge out at key off, that is the 5 minutes of hissing you will hear once you shut down, but that doesn't always clear it out. When this happens, I just pull the dosing unit apart, and run it under warm water. All the crystals dissolve and my codes will clear. Anyone who has a truck or , eventually equipment out of warranty, I highly suggest getting to know where the filters and screens are, and don't be afraid to just start poking around these systems. I've even pulled the doser nozzle out and found a softball size wad of solid DEF crystal plugging the exhaust from a dripping nozzle. The stuff isn't going away, (I know this is a little off track from the original post about a good bulk tank pump),…….also keep in mind the DEF is used in the SCR system, this is separate and comes after the DPF system. the DOC/DPF system injects diesel fuel to reduce particulants, and the SCR injects DEF to reduce NOX. I'm sorry I haven't been to this forum in over 2 years and now I just won't shut up!
Hey Man, glad to see you back! Always good to have another truck guy around, though I'm getting a lot more into ag equipment than trucks lately. You still chasing mixers? Don't wait so long to join in next time. Mitch
Thanks Mitch, I left the mixers and went to a Freightliner Dealer for the last 3 years, Monday I'm moving into a service truck. They said if I can land H.E work go for it, so my first thought was, "I need to go back to H.E.F "!