Went to do a little road work today. Checking fluid levels and engine oil too high. No diesel smell, coolant low, drain about two gallons of coolant out of oil sump. Sure glad I always do fluid checks first thing. Backround: Parked one month ago after plowing snow for 5 hours. Had to replace block heater first. Added coolant. Did notice a chirping noise towards the end of day. Nothing apparent when I looked around. Noted engine running a little warmer, not hot. Did note on today's oil check that that oil was black, not the usual dark brown at 200 hrs.into last oil change. Coolant was flushed and changed to Final Charge about 150 hours ago. Engine is a JD 6059 with a turbo with 2900 hrs. Repowered in 1992. Radiator recored in 2004 at 1650 hrs. Total coolant capacity 5.6 gals. Would guess that coolant pump is in need of replacement. Gaskets, seals and impeller. Concerned about turbo bearings and other things I don't know about as well as things I think I know about. Not much of a wrench man, but am 8 years into this old grader and need advice so I can keep going awhile longer. Thanks ahead,
Not familiar with the engine that is in this grader but my first guess would be liner seals. Orings seal the coolant at the bottom of most larger diesel engines. Try turning the engine over by hand to see if it will turn a couple complete turns. If it does turn over by hand I would say a cracked head is not that likely. You say you checked the coolant and it was low, is the top of the radiator nice and clean? No oil film? While a failed water pump could be the cause if it is in fact a gear driven pump, I would be looking for a weep hole on the pump. Most all gear driven water pumps have a weep hole between the oil seal and water seal of the pump to let the water from a failing pump drain to the outside and not go into the oil. Problem is that bugs and dirt can tend to plug the holes up over time. If you can find a hole poke around in it with a wire or welding rod to clean it out. If you are on real good terms with a dealer and they actually hve a pump on the shelf see if they will show you where the weep hole is located. Next question is, how hard to drop the oil pan? If it is at all possible I would be looking at dropping it and fill up coolant again and watch for where the coolant is leaking. Best would be if you had a cooling system pressure tester or some way to put 10 to 15 psi in the coolant system. If you see nothing after about an hour try tuning by hand about 1/2 turn and watch again. EDIT: I took a quick look at some 6059 engines on the John Deere Part site and looked like most if not all are belt driven water pumps. So unless yours is different from all the ones I saw a leaking water pump would not get coolant in oil. Also I did see that the 6059 shown there does have oring seals at the bottom so that is a definite possibility.
Do you have a heater in that grader? and was it working the last time you used it? How much coolant did you add, and did you check it after running for a bit? The chirping sounds to me like a head gasket, if you're lucky. Caused by overheating possibly. The valve cover would have soupy gunk stuck to it if the engine ran with coolant in the oil, bad news. If the coolant only leaked in after it was shut off the engine may be OK.
You are correct about the belt driven pump. I think that I will have to drop the pan as I parked it about one inch off level and will need to make sure that the sump is clean of coolant. There is a heater in the cab and it was working as the temps were near 20 that day. I had to add about 1 gal. of coolant, but know that l spilled some because I changed out the block heater at day's end. The oil went from dark brown to black, so I suspect that it ran with while some coolant was leaking in, but that most of what I drained out leaked in during the month it sat. I contacted a professional wrench with a service truck and am on the board for a service call. I will pass your reply on and hope for the best, which I'm not expecting now. Thanks much Delmer as I wasn't suspecting liner seals.
If it is indeed a leaking head gasket the most likely path would be from a coolant passage over to the pushrod area then to the base. So there might be a good chance by just removing the valve cover you could look down that area and see a trail of the coolant. Might have to top off the radiator and put a little pressure on the system to make it visible. Pop off the cover and upload a picture of what it looks like under there.
A little further look at the parts and tech manuals confirms Delmer's prognosis about liner packing failure. Guess this means engine comes out. This would mean that I can tell the mechanic to come prepared to take the engine back to the shop. I now suspect that going to a new type of engine coolant, (Final Charge), might not have been a good choice on my part as it could have caused the liner problem. Thanks again Delmer as I wasn't thinking the problem through, but just going to the best possible outcome.
kshansen, sorry about the confusion of who is posting. Once again I'm not paying close enough attention to who is posting. I believed you once said that the JD570 is a machine well worth repairing and can be kept going for a long time. That gives me some hope as I just last year recovered my costs and was looking at actually making some wages for the hours I put on it. I suppose that can chalk it up to my continuing education program. Thank you for your encouragement and help with this.
Don't get ahead of yourself. The valve cover is much easier to remove than the oil pan, and that's where the service guy will probably start. The oil getting black doesn't mean much to me, black is soot/carbon which is normal, water coolant would make a soupy chocolate mess, and coat the underside of the valve cover if it was running. The engine may be fine after it's fixed. If it was in good shape in 92 (new or rebuilt?) then it might not need to be pulled out even to replace the liners, IF you can get to the oil pan. The final charge didn't cause the problem, unless it was because it was 20 years too late.
Again, agree with with Delmer. With one modification not a "chocolate mess" more like a chocolate mouse! If it ran any time with water and oil mixed you will be scooping it out of the valve cover by the handful. That's why I suggested pulling the cover and posting a picture. Black oil doesn't scare me, but then I worked on lots of old Detroits! And yes if you can remove the oil pan in place and have a decent place for guy to work should not need to pull engine unless something worse than some failed orings are found to be the problem. Lets not worry about that till the professional gets a look at it and checks a few things.
Well the oil cooler passed the vacuum test. Mechanic wants to bring it into the shop. Doesn't want to pull the engine on site. Not much room to inspect liner o-rings. Thinks bearings should be inspected. The Repowered back in 92 was because of cavitation induced liner failure and I suspect that it ran awhile with coolant in the oil. I did drain all the oil and the last 1.5 gal. was clean oil that looked OK to me. No chocolate mouse any where in the pan or around the filter. Mechanic does not suspect head gasket. He did pressure test radiator and it did not hold pressure long. Humm.... Will stop by the shop today for more info and leave manuals and repair records if I'm OK with what I see. To get it to the shop I will need to put oil in, start it and move it 1/4 mi. and load it up on transport. Should take less than 15 minutes. Advice appreciated, thanks guys.
Well if you are going to be running it depending on the predicted temperatures in your area I might be tempted to reuse the coolant you drained out and just top off with water as needed. But that all depends on the weather and how much coolant was not saved. Also would need to make sure everyone knows if it does not have a perfect solution mix in the engine. Don't want to fill it with something that is good for the weather in the morning then have the driver or shop park it outside and have the temperature drop to -30º overnight. As for oil I would suggest filling with new oil and a new filter. Could use some less expensive brand as long as it meet the standards for the engine, say something store brand from Tractor Supply or such. If nothing else fresh clean oil will help clean the insides up a bit for who ever is doing the job.
Looks like I've still got coolant still coming down. Won't be moving it until Monday and temps are above freezing. Will be putting in fresh oil, but not the high dollar stuff for sure. Beginning to think that my radiator wasn't pressuring up due bad cap , (?), and maybe that led to cavitation. Oh the learning curve can be steep.
Well I think I'd leave the drain plug out till monday and fill with fresh oil and coolant just in time to load on truck. If there is even a slight chance temps will get close to freezing don't take a chance with not putting in antifreeze. You don't need to chance adding to the problem with a cracked block or head from ice!
Well here it is Valintine's Day and I just got the price to move my grader about ten miles on a flat bed. Low was $100 per hour and four hours minimum, no kisses. The drain is still open an I calculated about 8 oz. of coolant per 24 hrs. for the last 38 days. So I have collected 2.25 gal. of coolant total and it's still dripping. Just a small ring of chocolate mouse in the last day of drips. So I'm thinking that abut roading it in with fresh and cheap oil and new filter. I've separate the coolant from the oil I drained out and will put that back in the radiator for the trip. The mechanic thinks I'll be OK. Please tell me if there is some bad thinking here.
More calculations, that would amount to about 1/3 oz per hour of drip drip drip. About 2 hrs. from start to finish.
If it was me I'd drain all the coolant out and fill it with water and run it. Coolant will etch the bearings water will not. Then drain the water out or don't let it freeze. Or drain the water out and put the old coolant back in but don't run it much with the coolant in there. My 2 cents
I might tend to agree if you can do this move on a day say in the low 40's or higher. Just make sure once it is there someone puts it inside and drains the water both from the radiator and the oil pan. Also make sure to remove plugs down low on the block to be sure no water remains caught anywhere inside the engine.
I absolutely know nothing of this engine, but does it have seals on the injectors that may have failed? Just trying to help.
Though I have done something similar to what you describe, to get it in the right shop to tear it down. I would not recommend it. How much is your time worth? In order to reconfigure the engine and cooling system to get it ready to road, you will be spending hours on both ends probably. Plus if the motor gets tatered along the way, the $400 is going to look mighty cheap in the rear view mirror. My advice if you really want to road it would be to drain and refill with water as stated by others, and put a stick in the center part of the radiator cap so it can't build pressure, and be wary of freezing after doing this. At least we are coming out of winter soon.
This is what I needed to hear. Temps will be above 40 so I will use straight water and save the expensive coolant I salvaged for later. I had no idea that coolant could etch the bearings. Checked out his parking lot today and looks like it could use some grading so you know what I'm thinking. Thanks, I'll keep you posted. Thanks
So I didn't sleep too well last night thinking about Birken's post. I also suspect that the block heater failure wasn't just coincidence, but maybe had something to with absence of coolant. So I probably ran it for about 5 hr. with contaminated oil. I have just about lost all my innocence here. So my plan to get it to town will include worst case scenario of .....ouch! We know the engine will turn over so it will start and I can take it easy for the first couple of miles and get a feel for how it's going. If it doesn't sound good I can pull it over in friendly territory while I've still got steering, shut it down and call for transport. Now these 570's have a tow mode on the transmission, so worst case might be a heavy duty tow truck. Might even be cheaper than the $400 minimum for the lowboy. Does it sound like maybe I still haven't quite lost all my innocence yet?
So the drive into town was interesting as I haven't had a piece of equipment around traffic like that since .... a long time ago. Never through double round abouts just off interstate traffic. A first for me, maybe for some drivers too. So I arrived at the shop under my own power an with no additional ornaments. Let the mechanic, Jay, know that I had filled the radiator with straight water and that it would need drained before he left as temps were expected to be in the mId twenty's that night.. Being a mechanic, he had several jobs going, so that gave me something to worry about last night too, (l'm getting my money's out of this project) . Went by early this morning to drop off the coolant half expecting to find that water hadn't been drained and then what. Well I'm not dealing amateurs as the drain tub was underneath. Looked like there was still enough coolant still in the system to protect down aways any ways. So it will be next week before I know the damages therefore I'm taking the weekend off. Don't Worry, Be Happy the man said, (Apparently he didn't have equipment sitting at the shop). Some how this is gonna turn out OK.
rsherril, Glad to hear you got it there without too much trouble. Over the years I have helped escort and on one occasion drove a piece of equipment over the road and it always amazes me how crazy some car driver act around big equipment. They seem to think a big piece of machinery can stop or turn like a little sports car and do not understand the idea of if you can not see the operator he sure as **** can't see you! Almost forgot, hope to see some pictures showing what they find once it's opened up on the operating table!
If the leak is that slow I'd try some almond powder tablets. Sold under GM, AC Delco, or Bar's leak, etc
Looks like I'll have some solid evidence of where the problem is today. The engine is ready to come out this morning. The owner of the shop called yesterday to discuss where I might want to go with this project once they open it up. Of course much of will depend on why the coolant went into the pan. As the labor costs will be significant, he thought that I might want to consider a bottom end rebuild which would include bearings, sleeves and such items. The upside being I shouldn't have any more problems "down there" in the near future. A little review here. The engine has 2900 hrs since the repower in 1992. It's fair to say about 100 hrs per year since then and I intend to put about 200 more hours on it before we part company. I would expect resale value around 15-20K. So I'm weighing the cost benefits for resale. I think that I wIll be looking at 5K for the bottom end rebuild, sleeves and so on. As we won't know the cause and conditions until around noon today, that will have some bearing, (no pun intended), on the decision. I expect that they will want to know what's next and I'll need to give them an answer for a parts order soon afterwards. Will keep you posted but I'll most likely have to make a decision before the end of the day. Would appreciate any comments beforehand concerning the pros and cons of a bottom end rebuild for resale value. - Bob
2900 hrs is nothing. If the rod and mains are still in spec, I wouldn't touch them. The crank might be pitted from water in the base, but if not I'd leave them alone.
That's my thinking as these engines should be able to go 7000 to 10,000 hrs before that kind of work. I think we'll just have to see what we got before "I get my panties in a bunch" so to speak. Thanks
I'm home now and watching some deer in the yard and the whole predator prey relationship is coming into focus. These deer all have stations, some feeding and some looking out. Around the neighborhood some cougar tracks have been spotted, so the deer have a right to be nervous. Thinking back to my grader being torn down with it's innards hanging out I'm beginning to get the picture. I've probably got a couple grand in shop bills now and still don't have a clue as to the cause of the red stuff in the sump. I watched the pressure test with the motor outside and nothing was coming out the lower end. Came back later and the engine is on legs in the shop. The idea is to do another pressure test in a controlled environment. Still can't rule out a head gasket. Will have to wait until Monday for results. I've set some limits on what's it's worth around 3K. After that, I'm thinking fix it and sell it. Shop seems amenable to doing that on site. I'm thinking it's gonna be a long weekend. Any one want to fill me in on the details on how this might work out? I'm seeing all kinds of possibilities here, some better than others. When you sell a piece of equipment on site, does the shop expect a cut? If so, how much? Does the shop have any incentives here? If so, does this deal need to be in writing? Are my panties bunching prematurely?
I hope they pressure tested with antifreeze in the block, not just water. Antifreeze will leak through where water wont.
when they pressure test make sure they rotate to move pistons I have had it where liners have pinholed and until you turn it over to a different spot wont leak.. how old was antifreeze that was in it? if it was more than 3-4 years old it was probably the cause as it turns acidic and loves to eat liners
580Bob & GregsHD, Interesting you should post that info. I stopped by today to check on the damages and they were scratchin their heads as there wasn't a leak to be found and the system was holding pressure. Some thinking that roading it in heated things up to seal the leak up. Thinking then that it might be best to take the head off and pull a couple of liners for inspection. $$$ I passed your posts on and found out that they did rotate the crank shaft and pistons , however were still using clear water. He did pull the valve cover and noticed some milky oil in there. BTW I've been running the coolant Final Charge for last 200 hrs. Before that it was the regular green glycol. I don't know what to think now, but sure appreciate your ideas here. Thanks -Bob
I checked the Bar Leak website and in hindsight Mike Bramel's recommendation for plugging the leak in situ makes a lot of sense now. 20/20 they say.
One other thing, not sure if the water pump is belt driven or gear driven on this engine. I had a problem years ago with a 16V-71 Detroit that had water in the oil. Did a pressure test of the cooling system with oil pans off and valve covers off to check all the normal suspects for leaking. Spent a whole day with not a drop of coolant to be seen. Went home for the night and came back the next morning to see a stream of coolant across the shop floor. Followed the trail and coolant was coming from the inside of the front cover right where the water pump was mounted! Seems counter to what one would expect that the pressure in the cooling system actually helped the water seal in the pump to seal better. When pressure dropped off over night is when it would leak.
The pump is belt driven, but that's the best advice at the moment, Ken, let it sit with and without pressure. Otherwise, what are you gonna do???
That reminded me of a similar situation having pressure tested all day with no leaks, then coming in the next day to find a mess on the floor. Too much time has passed to remember any details though! Never had any luck with barsleak, only product I've seen work for any period of time is irontite brand sealer.
Got the word from the mechanic that all six cylinder liners are "like swiss cheese". Maybe some hyperbole there, but the game is the same and I'll be paying to replace them. I reviewed some of the coolant threads and concluded that my flush and switch to Final Charge ELC in 2014 was probably the right thing to do, just too late to make much difference. So lessons learned would include change all fluids ASAP when purchasing used machines w/o maintenance records that do not reflect that it was completed as manufacturer recommend. Found it interesting that some liners could be rotated if they weren't too bad, but don't quite understand why one would choose that route as yet. Maybe when I see the bill I'll be even smarter.
OK here are the pics. All six liners have corrosion at the bottom end where the liner thins. Looks pretty clean towards the top. So my question is: are we seeing cavitation or electrolysis? The mechanic says electrolysis, as cavitation should be higher up where combustion is taking place. I would like to slow this process, whatever it is, down. I think that would require two different approaches. Electrolysis being a battery between two different elements and cavitation the result of gas imploding on the surface. If it is electrolysis then the conductive medium maybe needs changing, ie add nitrates to ethyl glycol and ditch the extended life coolant, (ELC=organic acid=electrolyte?). My understanding being that a battery requires three components, (electrolyte + anode+cathode with electrolyte = coolant here) and cavitation only a gas bubble collapsing explosively on a surface. Do the nitrates added to regular coolant act like gun blueing and plate a non conductive surface on one of the metal surfaces? Do the organic acids in ELC contribute to electrolysis when the machine sets for extended periods of time?
Don't think the pics uploaded correctly. Will try again.
I'm no expert but I've seen a few cavitaded liners. They weren't rusty . They had small pits near the center of the liner.
That is what I remember as common mostly with the 855 Cummins and some Cat engines we had in many machines back in the day. A more or less vertical line of pits about half way between the top flange and the orings at the bottom. And yes I do know some people did recommend rotating them about 90º if reusing them. Thing is I don't think we ever rebuilt an engine where the bore was anywhere near reusing. Maybe an over the road truck engine you might find that but in a stone quarry the dust would wear them out even with good air filters. My opinion from the rust and location of the pits would tend to tell me it was just lack of good coolant maintenance. I would also be wanting to look at the lower bores in the block, seen them also get real bad in that area. Actually managed to salvage a few blocks by repairing with epoxy. The we did get the tooling to actually bore the block out for a repair sleeve down in that area. Sad story about that is we used this tooling maybe twice before upper management decided to farm-out all major engine repairs so that set of tooling that cost around $5,000 twenty years ago sits on the shelf with no one left there that even has the faintest idea of what it is.
Didn't Cummings used to have an additive in their water filters to stop electrolysis. Seems like an old memory from my trucking days
Yup- they did. Is it called SCA? I used to test it once in a while. There were test strips. There were 2 different coolant filters- a "charge filter" and a "maintenance filter" with varying levels of additive.
Sorry about the bad news. That engine hadn't had new coolant since the 80's or whenever it was. ELC had nothing to do with it. With rust like that, it wouldn't surprise me if it was run with straight water and mostly drained and left to sit for a decade with the water at that level, or just the damp sludge at that level. Cavitation is erosion caused by the stress of the cylinder firing, the bottom end of those liners is just there to support the piston skirt, no combustion inside of that part. Electrolysis might as well be the boogyman. ANY coolant that was maintained would have prevented that, even wally world cheap stuff.
For more detailed information on this "cavitation" subject do a Google search on "cylinder liner cavitation damage". Here is just one of the pictures you can see when you select "images"
Yes but that only worked if someone actually used it and tested to be sure the concentration was correct. Some times called SCA or other times DCA, I believe the terms were interchangeable.
If memory serves me right, the JD green guys came out with an add-on filter kit for the 466 and 619 engines which were notorious for liner cavitation(especially the 619). This was about 30 yrs ago. I think the 762 or 862 JD scrapers used the 619. A good JD parts person (green or yellow) should be able to track down the parts bulletin or maybe a service bulletin from that era. The yellow or green engines were basically the same with the differences possibly being the water pump, starter, turbo, power setting, etc. There was a lot of parts interchangeability between them although the part# of the complete engine was different as well as the engine model#. If the filter kit can be added, it is a lot more convenient than adding sca to the rad although either method works well for coolant maintenance. Fleetguard(cummins) has the test strips to use for checking the coolant
I just developed a habit of changing coolant every 3-4 years or so. Even if you keep up with the SCA, the pH can become acidic or whatever, and rust starts to develop. I have never seen this kind of damage on something that was changed occasionally. It always comes from the ones that seem to think coolant is to be left there before. Modern cars automatic transmissions also claim lifetime fluid. I change them also. But with OEM fluid.
I'd bet the reason so many never change coolant is because of the labeling on the jugs, or at least they used to be labeled this way "Permanent Anti-Freeze". I was told many years ago this terminology came about with the introduction of "ethylene glycol" antifreeze. Before that the most common "anti-freeze" was alcohol based and you can imagine how long that lasted in the system. You had to keep adding it to replace that lost to evaporation. So when someone invented "ethylene glycol" the need to top up at a regular rate to keep the system from freezing was no longer required. Then some marketing genius came up with the term "Permanent Anti-Freeze".
Yeah, my dad's old Case tractor manuals and some of his farm books from that era mention using a methanol/water blend as antifreeze when required. I think they also mention glycol but it seemed to be a new idea then. I think Detroit diesel still mentions methanol up into the early 1990s, and plain water with SCA also. They don't recommend it and seem like it was grudgingly put there for old customers whose fleet always did it that way. It is tempting to me to to put some methanol in those units that leak a little coolant into the crankcase but are too worthless to rebuild the engine since glycol is so damaging to oil properties. Presumably methanol is not as bad (simpler chemical) and would evaporate under load.
Thanks for your help with this thread. I got my education concerning coolant maintenance. Thinking back to 2009 when I purchased this machine, (from a dealership no less), I can't think what I would have done differently. The grader had just come in after 20 years with a local municipality as a trade in and had maintenance records that implied the coolant had been changed at least twice. Also had a sticker on the inside panel that said it had been checked at one point, but that date wasn't readable. As the man said, "you'se pay your money and you'se take your chances". Plan now is to stay with ELC and like my retired farmers friends, look for that good year that's just around the bend. I appreciate your experience and help.