My company recently landed a large project in the FL area that will include quite a bit of pull pan and artic truck work. I was only recenlty assigned to the project and through some initial conversations may have discovered an issue with our plan of attack. The plan as I understand it will be to load the pull pans by running them accross the slope, which is a 2.5:1, to remove the material. The pull pans are a mixed fleet of Cat and Deere pans averageing about 18CY in size. The estimate calls out that we plan on getting 12CY (compacted) a cycle per pan. So call it 24CY per cycle for each unit. My fear is that we missed the fact that because we are loading on a cross slope and the material is sandy that we may have the following issues: 1.: Wont be able to load the bowl very well due to the sandy soil. (More Cycles/Reduced Capacity) 2.: That the actual capacity will be greatly reduced even from the struck capacity because of the cross slope. (More Cycles/Reduced Capacity) 3.: We will have a quantity over run if we try to cut benches into the slope to load level due to the width of the scrapers and the slope required to be cut at each bench level. (Quantity Bust) 4.: The scrapers wont be able to stand up on the cross slope or the scraper units will tend to drag down the hill. (Production Bust) Either way I am curious to know what he scraper guys here have to say. I personally have not spent a ton of time in the seat of a pull pan which are big in FL. I have only run 621's and 31's and since I graduated college I have been able to spend much time in the seat in much of anything. But I hope that I can get some thoughts from the group here on what I may be facing here on this new project. Thanks
Are you saying that you are going to try and too run tandem scrapers or singles? would be hard enough too just use singles.3 to 1 slope is hard enough loading with out push cat to help hold the scraper up on the slope. If you going to try and use the scrapers.Looks like to me you will have to load down hill from the top down.Tandem wouldn't work there the best would be my guess would need more right away?Would have to have a good finish hand guy cleaning up the cut all the time to keep things on grade. Cross cut would have to be done on bench system with dozerman running the slope(sand) down all the time, flatten and widing out the cut(bench) for the scraper too cut. Sand will be a problem beside your other problems. More info also needed is the cut or cuts small areas with lots of just cutting back into old slope.Because if bigger area you should be able too move over the cut as you bring down the slope.More info need?
Yes we will be running with two pans behind each tractor unit. The cuts are all linear and long. I assume that we will have to make cuts into the slope to create the bench. Provided that is the way that we go, do you think that the scrapers will pick up the material. You think half a bowl is reasonable? I know a 621 wont pick up sand to save it's life.
If your using Challengers and two pans the travel speed loading will help to get a decite load but not full,especial last scraper.Unless you can keep up the speed after the front scraper is full. Push and pull scraper didn't do bad in sand or fluffy material,because the first scraper had less load and more speed loading,but after full and pulling, unless you skimed along at faster pace then ypu would have to pump the last little bite to get it full or desite load Push cat and scraper just load fast then pump the scraper to get it to load that last little bite. Little tricks help like to start with open the lip on the scraper high to start with then as you got full close lip down closer then pump the scraper.At least that is what worked the best for me in sand and sandy loom hill dirt around here. Speed loading will be the key to what size loads you will get.Add water to sand and you get half a load of sand and half a load of water.Been there.My gess is your production will be on the minus side of what your estimater thought!Good luck with your project.
Other thing make sure your lip is tight before you lift the pan,or there went halp of half of you load right there.Say that last part real fast.Good luck.
Your cat pans you will never keep right side up on a slope like that, you will need deere pans. Cat pans use a ball type hitch and will roll completley over where deere has a stoping point and wont tip. Cat pans do alot of this But Deere pans suck in sand the way they are angled you cant hardly get a full load where the cat pans load much easier in sand. Will you be using rubber tired machines or track??? In order to load rubber tired machines on a slope that steep you would need a 6 behind them pushing them, then they will have no problem getting a full load. But Then you will have to worry about the pans sliding down the bottom of the slope. Now if you plan on using track machines on a slope like that??? Good luck keeping the tracks on them. Like Construct'O said your going to have to bench them in and get them level. Stock pile some extra top soil on the top of the slope that way the dozer hand will have some dirt to fill it in if you have to undercut it. But a good dozer hand should be able to get this done for you.
Yair . . . Beats me. As you blokes know I am old school but I don't know how anyone would ever bloody CONSIDER loading scrapers across a slope . . . you either use the slope to assist you or bench it level, no big deal . . . and as far as sand goes thats what twin power elevators were made for. LOL. Cheers.
Thanks everybody for the input. Ill keep you posted on what we work out. This is great information.
I agree, any rubber tracked machine going against the slope is gonna be a good time...specially for the mechanic. Rubber tracked mini hoes, and skid steers were bad enough, I could only imagine what a pain an agg tractor would be.
Why do I get the feeling that the person doing estimates on this job is great at running a chair behind a desk.
If I understand this thread correctly I would trim the slopes with a dozer until there is enough material to run the scrapers level then go ahead and make the sliver cut, loading any scraper on a slope of 2.5:1 won't happen
Spoke with the super today and I found out the we are benching in and cutting the bench to to the toe as we work it down. So no cross slope loading as I once thought. Still begs the question of what quantity well actually get in each bowl. Do you think that in the sand 12cu a bowl is within reason for a 18 cy pull pan?
So do you think we track each pan individually for quantities? Based on the cat and deere pans loading one over the other? Like construction said should we look to.speed loading to get the yardage in?
No I wouldnt, but we have actually done a cross section of what kinda yardage they were hauling. In heavy clay they were getting between 12-14 yards a pan. The deere did slightly better then the cat. But this was clay in sand the cat pan would of beat the deere. In sand i think you would be better with a 6 behind them, you can get them loaded in half the time, and he can be shaping the cut up in between scrapers and if he does get behind or you need the dozer somewhere else they can always selfload for awhile and still be productive. And even with no dozer i think you would have no problem getting 10-12 yards with good operators
Like Vapor said ; "good operators". That is one of the key parts of your particular job. The ability of them will make or break the production/profit. Not just in the cut , but in the fill area as well.
How big of fill area and how do you plan on compaction and keeping it wet? No problem getting density if moisture content is maintained.
Aint no way youre getting either a scraper or anything pulling a pan to load on a 2.5:1 sandy slope. The machines can barely hold themselves on a compacted 2.5:1 slope. Just bench it in and bring it down with a blade or a dozer. Expect to get less than struck yardage when loading on a cross slope