Hi, I am looking at purchasing a 2020 Case TV370 with 579hrs. on the meter. The machine is being sold through a Komatsu dealer who did a dealer inspection and an oil analysis on the engine, hydraulic system, and both final drives. The only major concerns I have found are with both the final drive samples. I have attached the samples and inspection. Are the levels something that would dissuade you from buying the machine for a pretty good deal? Could there have been too much damage caused already to be remedied by draining the oil and refilling? My plan was to drain and fill with new oil and then drain and re fill again within the next 100-200 hours to essentially flush any contaminants out. Would also consider replacing any seals that could possibly be letting dirt/water in. Thanks for your help.
Depends what the deal is I guess. My thoughts would be that the oil in the finals has never been changed in the life of the machine. If it was a Cat it would only have about 1 quart of oil per side. Generally these oils don't get changed regularly which is crazy when you consider how little is in them and how much stress the finals are under. If you were to buy it I would suggest to get the tracks off, or the machine up on blocks, drain the oil and fire some diesel into the final drives then rotate them for 10 minutes or so and drain. Keep doing that until the drained diesel is clean then fill with the recommended oil. Again if it was a Cat the recommended oil would be a synthetic 85W/140 gear oil. The synthetic is specified for the reason that those finals are under a lot of stress. The general feeling is that if you want the final drives to last then the oil in them should be changed every time the engine oil is changed, so around every 250 operating hours or less, whatever the manual says. Also you might want to take a look at the engine intake system & air filters. The silicon is high @ 12ppm (ideally it should be in single figures, say 5-8) and there is a corresponding presence of aluminium @ 13ppm which is a first sign of dirt either getting past the air filter or getting into the intake somewhere between the filter and the engine.
Really appreciate the information and the tips. The machine is priced such that if both final drives had to be replaced it would come out to cost about the same as buying any other comparable machine I can find.
Not sure about the price of Case final drives, maybe others can comment. Again if it was a Cat you would not have much change out of $10k for a new one, so approaching $20k for both sides. A lot of spend when set against the price of a couple of quarts of (admittedly expensive) synthetic gear oil a few times a year. TBH I would be quite concerned about the engine analysis. That silicon reading is not outlandishly high but then again neither is is in the "normal" range and when things like that happen there is usually a reason for it. Again these things can come back to bite you in the *** big time.
I guess I’m really wondering what average looks like. I know the company I work for runs machines hard and maintains them poorly and still gets 3k+ hrs. From the CTLs. I know this doesn’t mean it’s “good” but is it justifiable to spend another $20k to get a comparable used machine that could very well have almost the same analysis?
Sorry, no idea. All I can comment on is what you posted up regarding the actual oil analysis. In my world up to 100k hours on a machine, including quite a few rebuilds along the way, is not at all unusual. 3k would be just nicely run in.
I wouldn't let any if those reports scare me. I've seen worse on 250 hour new machine samples. They look just like 580 hour samples on original oil would look. I'd just switch to 250 hour intervals, and resample at 500, just for your piece of mind.
As for service life, I've got or had 10k hour TB53FR, TB180FR, and TL150 machines. I'm on 300 hour intervals, running air precleaners, and updated water separators, all on original pumps, engines, and gearboxes, save for duocone final seals on on TB180FR, 2 engines on one TL150 (defective air cleaner housing first time@500hr, and no warmup on a 0° day before put to work on the 2nd) and a injection pump at 1200 hrs on one TL150. Don't misunderstand me, they've all taken parts, sweat and money to get there, but, no major components.
Welcome to the Forums Grayco! Glad to have you. What's the intended use for the machine - personal use or commercial? If commercial what type - rental, general contractor or tradesmen?
I agree with Nige that the oil has never been dropped in the finals before. I drop mine every couple hundred hours on all of the machines I have had and have. Takes a quart per side. I wouldn't be considered about the numbers. The 370 is a good machine.
Mine get it every oil change or once a year. We did nothing with the 259 this year so I may skip. The oil from cat is just about 20 a quart maybe 25. Finals like Nige said are 8 to 10gs. I can buy alots of oil for 10000. 4000 qts to be generous. So 2000 years/intervals. So assuming it saves them till my great to the 3rd power grand children are dead. I'll change the oil. I just realized it should be 400 qts. Never said I was to good at math so enough for 200 service intervals. Still plenty long enough
I just priced a drive motor and final drive assembly for a 297D which has an ASV undercarriage within the last month. My cost are about $5400.00. In my experience this is about the normal price for CTL finals and motor assemblies. No experience with case. However, these are usually repairable if you have a good hydraulic shop or are handy yourself. I have had these repaired at an independent shop with one day turn around for about $1600. Sometimes longer when I had to source some of my own parts. If caught in time they usually only need bearings. A parts and service manual would probably be a very good Invesment for this type of repair if you attempt yourself. At the end of the day if this was my machine, I would be budgeting more like 3K to 12K for both sides in a worst-case scenario plus your labor to remove and install. If down time is critical you may be forced to replace with new if available. Then you can rebuild the assemblies for spares or sell the cores to a rebuild shop. Don't let the stealership keep and sell for themself. I second the use of synthetic oil and changing oil every few hundred hrs. Some of these machines only hold a pint which is damn cheap. Usually if a final is going you will see metal flake when draining. I no longer sample mine unless I suspect an issue. It costs no more money to just change the oil. On a side note, I believe bobcat has a newer design that circulates hydraulic oil continuously through the final drive eliminating this issue potentially. Will be interesting to see if they stick with this design long term. If you use dealer service, consider this. Does this machine still have warranty? If not, an aftermarket extended warranty from EPG or others could lower your risk. I have used these before and had two drive motor assemblies replaced at the stealership under extended warranty at a cost of about double what I paid for the warranty. Yes, I regret the mistake of not recovering the old cores. In this case for me the extended warranty was a good investment except it took 4 months to get my machine back from the stealership. I would have been money ahead to have fixed myself because of the down time. I am more knowledgeable now on how to cost effectively repair these myself or locally. Nige and others are not wrong About the cost of final drives but I think their numbers may be more applicable to larger machines. I have no experience with case parts pricing regarding their CTL machines. I do have considerable experience with other brands though. In my opinion these machines are from a different world then what Nige has worked in. In my experience if you are paying stealership prices for work on CTL machines 2000 hrs and or when the warrant is out is a good time to get out of these machines with a reasonable cost per hour. After that the cost-effective options are to keep operating are to retire the unit to a low hour application or do your own repairs, so you don't pay dealer level labor cost. For many reasons many CTL machines are designed to be a throwaway machine and not run to high hours. If you look at used machines there is often times a lot of units for sale around 2,000+ hours mark for this reason. Sad and depressing for the cost. Best of luck on your decision. I would not be scared of a bad final on one side at the right price.
I certainly didn't get that memo.
Me neither. IMHO the total life of any machine all depends how it is operated & maintained.
Unfortunately this has been my experience and the opinion of multiple factory reps, a few factory engineers, and the dealerships I have been in touch with for the brands I have ran. On some brands I can show you some design characteristics that may be there to cause the major components of the machine to wear out early. That said I currently have some machines with well over 3K hours. It has been painful to get this far for me in my applications. I am doing my own repairs and making some modifications to make the machines last longer. The labor hours/cost for repairs and Maintenace in the last 1K hours are dramatically higher than the first 2K hours. I think a good owner operator that does good maintenance and repairs could certainly go farther in a moderate application. I have personally seen 10k hours on a Takeuchi by an owner operator. That is impressive to me but not the norm I have experienced. I would like to see that Tak machine on display in a museum. If you have had different experiences with the life of these machine I would be interested to hear about your application, brand, repair, maintenance plan and experience in general. My comments are specific to CTL machines and the Cat ASV and Bobcat brands I have not owned operated or maintained other brands.
I try to get out of my tracked machines in the 2-2.5K time frame. I have yet to see any expensive repairs in doing that, but the main reason I have done it is the resale is better and I can roll into a new machine for less money, rather than starting over. By saying that, prices for these machines has gone through the roof. I bought my last track machine in 2021. It was like 72K. The same machine now looks to be closer to 90K. May have to start running them longer, we shall see when that time comes. If resale has kept the same increase than it shouldn't matter. Final drives have come a long way. Back in the mid 2000's final drive failure was pretty common at the 3000 hour range. I was told by a BC engineer during that time that the final drives were not their yet in their design. It seemed to be true since the failure rate seemed pretty high, regardless of color (that said, I think most used Rexroth for their drives). I don't hear of a lot of failures anymore, generally speaking.
Today's price from my local dealer for a final for a 259d. Till tax is paid and it's installed it can get you to 8 to 10000
Well, let's start Bobcat. Had 3 863G and 2 864H (T190). 1st, my southwest Pennsylvania dealer(s) charge 20% over list price for ALL parts. That's Bobcat of Pittsburgh, Indiana, Mt Pleasant, and Washington. Had over $10k in undercarriage parts between 2 864H by 1000hours. That was AFTER warranty replaced most of the parts prior. A large number of the self threading bolts were stripped prior to delivery. 3 outta 4 final drives self destructed before warranty ran out.
If you're bored, read thru my older post, where I had metal wear. Using magnets now and thicker oil. So far so good. metal particles in gear oil from final drives in takeuchi tl140 i changed the oil in my final drives on a 06 takeuchi tl140 with 700 hours. this was the second time i changed oil. old oil came out frothy...with air bubbles. and the old oil had lot of metal "glitter" in it. i installed new oil and ran for a bit and drained it out, and replaced with new... HeavyEquipmentForums
You can add bobcat of Johnstown and martinsburg and Huntington on to that list. I know the guy who owns them he also owns the local kubota dealer. He thought he was doing me a favor phoning me up offering 20 bucks a hour to pull wrenches. I whole heartedly refuse to buy anything from him!
Me neither.
My 279c I had was still going plenty good at 5200 hours when I sold it. Then I got the super low 1800 hour 259d. Only reason is for the sale was the 79 had steel tracks and I was sick of not needing them
I’ve only worked on Cat CTL’s, but the fleet of six259/289/299’s I’ve looked after has totalled some 30,000 hrs. The Advise about changing the final oil at the same time as the engine oil is spot on, and every oil change I’ve performed the oil has been filthy. However, two finals out of twelve have failed the seal between the sprocket carrier and the rear housing of the final, and one totally detonated the gear train at about 3,000 hrs with no warning, despite the wear pattern on the remaining teeth showing nothing abnormal and the final still having the correct oil level. As someone remarked earlier, these machines aren’t designed to be rebuilt like you would a D11.
Apologies to the OP for the thread hi jack. @ih100 Your hours of experience are not too far off of mine. Have you experienced failures on the hydraulic motor side of the drives? I had a number of these fail on the hydraulic side sending metal through the hydraulic system damaging much of the hydraulic system. I had at least 15 failures on cat machines. I figure 100K in parts alone on cat drive assemblies. The bobcat and ASV machines I ran had much lower failure rates on the hydraulic systems and drive motors. Heck I had multiple cat machines have the hydraulic motor side of a track drive assembly fail destroying most of the hydraulic system with less then 500 hrs on the machine. Cat machines are the only ones I have ran were a single hydraulic component failing could destroy the whole system due to poor filtration in my experience, all before oil samples could catch the issue.
No, never had a motor failure. We do the oil and filter changes on the button. Mind you, drive hoses are a constant pain, done every single one at least once.
Revisiting this a year later, I’ve had two more final failures. Both times I thought it was just the seal, but it seems the seals only fail when the gear train has let go. Tree Mulcher, I did take notice of what you said and stripped both finals down to parts, and the motor side was as-new. Just a thought, but if you’re mulching constantly, are you getting debris in the system from the implement pump?
So far I have never had an implement pump fail as the primary failure. I have never had a seal failure between the drive motor and the final drive either. Do you get mud packing into this area? I am currently testing some added filtration. One high pressure 4-micron filter in the implement pump discharge (this should catch any debris from the implement pump) and one 4-micron low pressure filter in the case drain line from the hydrostatic pumps/drive motors. If this works, I will be money ahead. I am hoping to improve my particle counts more to my liking while stopping the drive motors from contaminating the whole system when they fail by filtering the case drain fluid. I am not impressed with the factory filtration. I am hoping to see significant improvement in particle counts with my modifications as well as stopping a single component failure from taking out the whole system.
Got any photos or a link.?
This is a picture of a 5 micron Donaldson Filter that I installed on a Chev 2500 truck on the transmission cooler return line to the transmission oil pan. Worked way better than expected. Cost me less than $100 Simon C
Thanks for the photos Simon. As you pointed out that filter was installed on the return line. @Tree Mulcher mentioned he had installed a 4-micron filter in his “implement pump discharge” line which was what piqued my interest.
Some New Holland farm tractors use high pressure trans hyd filter, 1000psi, 24-28grm, the Wix # is 51456, for the 9 micron, + Wix all so has, I think, 3 and 5 micron versions, + Wix has a mount for it..
Give me some time I will get pics
Nige these are pics of the high-pressure filter as installed. This is a pall model HH9661F20DTTWSHYQ14. running element number HC9601FCP13H . I believe this to be about a 5-micron beta 1000 rated element but likely filtering tighter since my volume is significantly below the rated capacity.
These are pics of the case drain filter as installed. This is a cat 152-6901 or Donaldson hmk05 filter base with a Donaldson p564468 filter. This is a 4-micron beta 1000 rated filter.
Excellent. Thanks for the photos. One last question: How much flow can that filter assembly handle.?
The high-pressure filter is rated at up 150 GPM depending on filter element and port sizes of the housing. I am running 40 GPM with a 3 PSI pressure loss to friction on paper with 100 weight oil. At this low velocity the filter likely exceeds the 5-micron rating. The case drain filter with 4-micron rating is rated for 15 GPM at about 5PSI pressure drop. I have not run long enough to get oil samples yet with the added filters
I’d be interested to see what the ISO numbers do.
Case drain restrictions will cause the pump/ motor piston slipper shoes to float/ chatter, resulting in slipper shoe failure. IIRC, bobcat has case drain filters on their 863G/ 864H, but they are screens, and certainly not 4micron.
This case drain filter will bypass at 25 PSI. Some ASV machines had case drain filters as standard equipment for the attachment. 30-micron if I remember correctly for RC100 models. Not sure about current machines I have considered adding a second filter in parallel to reduce the pressure. Space is tight though.