Gentlmen I am having problem with a D3 B 23Y . I have tried everything I know to check as far as cable and connections. cleaned all and appears to have no voltage drop. battery checked at 941Cold Crancking at 13.25 Volts if I put a battery booster on at start position with 225 amp. I can get it to start after few click at the switch. it had those push button switch with rubber boots. I t came that way. Can I get some suggestion.:beerchug:beerchug
I had a 3B it was hell to start too, Have you had the starter checked? BTW Welcome to forum
Shopguy. It is new starter that I installed few years back. did not use the machine for many reasons not the place. I have a good battery group 31 in not 4 D will try the 4 D and see . other wise I am pulling the starter off. it have to come from under this machine has large hydraulic pump that block the starter from being pulled from the top. It just does not make sense so far tested the cables , changed terminal , cleaned ground connection etc. noticed the solenoid gets warm after few tries. I am suspecting the starting switch at the panel. it is push button type . wonder if it is corroded.
If the solenoid is getting warm, then you most likely have a bad solenoid that is not getting power through to the starter motor. Have you carefully tried to cross the two big solenoid terminals with like an old screwdriver? MAKE SURE IT'S IN NEUTRAL and all your body parts are clear before you cross the terminals if you decide to try it.
Hey lantraxco Yes I did try it with a screw driver , and yes it will turn over . My diagnostic is the solenoid. it is not the easiest machine to take the starter off from the side. The big hydraulic pump ( was option for a backhoe attachment ) is crowding the starter. I tired that before. it have to been done from the bottom. which tell to drive the machine on 8x10 railroad ties before attempting anything. Just in case if I have to take the starter off it be high to work under it. :salute I wish there is a way to modify the battery box to accept 2 group 31 batteries , Gentlemen Thank you for your support
My 931B has an 8D battery behind the seat. I would rather have 1 big battery than 2 small ones, less chance for corrosion and bad connections. Have you had the starter out before? I have the backhoe piston pump on my machine and the starter comes out the top but you may have to take one of solenoids off for clearance then turn the starter vertical. (Nippon Denso starter, 2 solenoids) Having someone underneath to hold it helps and I think I took the suction line or both off the pump for clearance as well.
Hi welder Dave , The group 31 are not small each has rating of 950 CCA with 2 you always have almost 1800 CCA. Just my 2 cents worth I have tried before to take the starter out from the side and the manual show it , in fact I am the one installed this starter. did not have the luck. I can get it to start and drive up on the 8X10 that will give clearance to go under it. My old football knee injury just wont bent for tight spaces.
Another Update , Put the 4 D battery , the starter acted the same way one click and nothing when I I bypass it with a screw driver it spin but nit fast to start. There a potential that I they gave me a 24 volt starter Started on taking off will be able to test it :drinkup
Starter Welder Dave , I must have the tightest spot to put a starter. it is a night mare . I removed rock covers , left lift cylinder , engine support. well that got me to the bolts the starter is loose in side. I think will have to remove the hydraulic plumbing , and hoses. I think the problem that is not grounded properly at the bolts. I may make an extra cable from the starter to frame to insure starter grounding.:drinkup
Gentlemen , I have done a lot research on the D3 B machine starting problem. one common issue that surfaced is the fact that the starter need to be grounded . Cat has a ground from battery to the frame and ground going from the flywheel housing to the frame. it seem that is not enough and some how loosing amp required to start the starter. suggestion is make an additional ground from starter blots to the frame.
If you have a bad ground you can measure a voltage difference (no more than 0,5 volts difference allowed) between the negative battery terminal and the starterground. Did you hand crank the engine to make Sure it isnt the engine or a parasitic load that wont allow it to start? Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk
As I stated above I could not find a ground from the starter. The best I can figure out is the previous owner had rewired few things. F 1- The kill switch it is not active and the starter push button is wired directly to the starter 2- the starter switch at the dash is a live all the time. 3- the starter mounting bolts do not have any ground 4- this a new starter and it should act this way we tried the big 4 D battery with a booster it made no diffrence. this is today update
Did you hooked up the starter to a battery when you had it out Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk
Coming up next I will start tomorrow, took me a while to get it out Also found part of the problem, I put a gasket on it with silicon gasket that Iam sure did isolate the starter
I think papergasket would do the same, the bolts should have enough grounding capability when their contactpoints are Free from paint etc Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk
Hi Dutchcat, I Performed this Test: 1- hooked up jumper cable a battery with (975 CCA ) 2- positive to solenoid big bolt 3- negative to ground 4- took another cable one end to mag switch the other end to positive cable it performed as it should , the Solenoid kicked out, starter motor spin Observation: 1- The starter spin slow to me ) 2- The Solenoid got warm
Hie thyself to ye old starter shop for an opinion I say.....
Think you should get it benchtested, or just open up the solenoid, there should be Some big relay like contactpoints in there maybe Some corrosion on it Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk
Hey Dutchcat , you are right , planing trip to the shop in the morning , will open both solenoid and motor. my guess after seen how it spin it must corrosion
Just up date, all the brushes looked like new and the internal we tested the starter at the shop, the Solenoid did not test well , while the motor tested well . it was as simple as putting the positive on the big bolts on the starter to test the motor. We changed the Solenoid , tested both and it worked as suppose . Now back to reinstalling..
Nice, could you find some visible evidence on the solenoid? I know that there are 2different windings in most starter solenoids, one for throwing the helix outward and one for keeping it there (hold in and pull in winding i think it was called) Simple but great way to test the motor btw, didnt think of that before Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk
I have the Solenoid , I just did not want to waist time at the shop. I did see some corrosion on the back end of the Sol. will open it up for more information The starter motor looked real good the brushes are new , motor barley have discoloration from the brushes.
Should be smooth sailing from now on then good luck Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk
Not Quite yet, I have a problem with push button switch it is a live all the time, while the disconnect switch on or off I would like to find a good wiring diagram for the back of the panel. someone had modified it
Mainpower relay or someone connected everything directly to the battery, i could have a look on sis later today. Starter relay could be a problem also, Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met Tapatalk
That one is a screwed up system the disconnect only disconnects the starter button the alternator is still hot maybe what is killing your batts
Just an update , I was able today to reinstall the Starter. after I got it to the point of starting, The starter performed well as expected. I also made plans for additional ground ( 2.0 wire) , bolted off the top starter bolt and connected to the frame. This machine will require every bit of 1000 or better cranking amp , my plan is to hook to 950 CC A each, that should keep from burning the Solenoid. I had few leakers that need attention. Everything looked and performed well. I will post few pictures later on Thank you for the support
:drinkup
Really? 950 CCA is cold cranking amps at 0 F which you shouldn't have to deal with in Alabama. One good fleet battery of around 750 CCA should be plenty to start that down to somewhere below freezing. Not that I'm arguing against the added ground cable, I'd go from the negative battery cable to the starter bolt though. If you're going with 2 batteries, the 750 amp batteries last longer than the higher amp rated ones in the same size.
D3B should start with a couple "D" cells, itty bitty 4 banger....
I had a reconditioned 8D battery in my 931B that lasted 10 years. It cost $80 and I replaced it with another used reconditioned battery from the same place for the same $80. The guy there said to go with a lower cranking amp battery because it will have thicker plates spaced further apart and last longer than going with the highest cranking amps for the same size battery. After having a used battery last 10 years and the group 31 I also bought reconditioned still going strong in the tractor after about 12 years, I think the guy knew what he was talking about. Hard to find good service like that anymore. If you need a battery for your vehicle, they will change in right there on the spot for free. Even going to Walmart they charge you $15 or $20 to take 5 minutes to change a battery. A 3204 needs a good battery but 2 is a little overkill.
Welder Dave , That is great about the battery reconditioned. I wish we have place here in Alabama that recondition the battery. 8D battery would have about 1400 CCA. when he recondition the battery what is exactly he does. The are many electronis gadget on the market now claim to recondition. I have not found one that realy works
I may be missing something on the electrical problem but every Cat system I worked on in 45+ years had the disconnect switch in the ground (-) cable. Cable from the negative terminal of the battery went directly to one side of disconnect switch and cable from other side of switch usually straight to frame or engine block. No other wires connected at either end of the cable from the negative battery terminal. If it is wired this way there is no way anything could be hot with disconnect in the off position unless the disconnect switch itself is faulty.
I don't know what they do to recondition the batteries. I think the battery I had was 1200 CCA. I noticed on my 931B that the starter wasn't always disengaging and would still keep turning the engine over when you turned the key off. When the engine starts it seems to stop. My starter was rebuilt and it didn't do this before so I don't know what's going on. It doesn't do it all the time.
Sounds like the contacts in the solenoid are sticking or there is something binding holding the contacts together. I would be pulling that starter and get it back to who ever rebuilt it. If that sticks in after the engine starts bad things could happen. Just thought of something else. Have a test light handy and next time it keeps cranking with switch off check for power on the small wire to the solenoid, usually a white one. If that one is energized with switch off you have a problem in the switch and or the wiring. Either way needs to be fixed before something goes BANG!
I will have to check it out.
Here are few pictures of the D3 B The battery case with Group 31 Battery 950 CCA I made an extra ground cable to insure that the starter and machine are well grounded. will need to weld a nut on the side
dont know why the first one is upside down will try again
as you can see the starter is way under all the hydraulic hoses and plumbing, all had to come off plus engine mount and bottom pans to get to the bolts. Got it done and it start just taking extra steps to insure it is grounded. next will add a disconnect switch. The alternator is working it is charging about 14.0 V, may be suspect .
New ground cable off the starter added, just to be sure we ground
this is one