I have a D3 B , it sat for a couple years , I had my knee replaced during which time all my equipment suffred I got back and started the machine , but would not move. today I took the steering clutches covers to loosen the brake pads. in the mean time my real concern is after I topped the radiator now I have water in the engine oil. It could many thing but I am trying to narrow it to a few possibilities. oil cooler, or head gasket , The machine is old but only 3000 hrs Any help would be appreciated
Water pump?
Hi Grandpa, I hope you right , but how to check it for water pump damage. a local mechanic friend mentioned the pump. according to cat Manual they mention possible problem : oil cooler , head gasket . will also need to change the front seal
A local repair shop had a D3B sitting in their yard a few years ago that the owner basically abandoned. Not sure if he couldn't afford the repairs or what was going on but they couldn't get ahold of him. Anyway they said they had to start it every so often to circulate the coolant so something wouldn't corrode. They found out the hard way. I can't remember exactly what though. I think something to do with where the rad hose connects on the engine or maybe the water pump. They said there were a lot of hoops to go through before they could sell it. Maybe from sitting there can be other corrosion going on? Drain the rad and drain the oil and hopefully no other damage.
Is it water from condensation or antifreeze from the engine. John
Hi Wilson , I think it is more than condensation . I added 1 gallon anti freeze and 1 gal of water. engine oil is gung gray and way past the mark on the dipstick. of course there is condensation . I would like to diagnose before doing a bunch of work
Is there by chance room enough to get oil pan off if you drop the belly pans? That way you could stand a chance of looking up inside and see where the coolant is coming from, assuming it is coolant and not just some condensation. Might want to just start by draining the oil and fill radiator and see if you are getting coolant out the oil drain hole. Also most if not all water pump have a "weep hole" that should let any leak drain to the outside. But we all know should and will are two different things! Try poking around the water pump to see if you can find and clean out the "weep hole".
If it's like a 931B the oil pan won't come off because the cross member for the track frames is in the way. My 931B water pump had a weep hole. 2 gallons is a lot. Wish I could remember what they said happens when they sit for too long. I think you have something more serious going on.
D3 the should have a 3204 so it don't have a gear driven water pump and it don't have sleeves so I would check the oil cooler although the oil pressure is higher then the water pressure it should put oil in the radiator so head gasket is likely unless it froze and busted
Hello Dave and evening to you all I agree with you Dave regarding the water pump and the oil cooler. Cat Dealer service manager also agree in short that mostly likely condensation. he also had comment about some seal will shrink over time , then will seal after it start and get hot. I filled the Radiator with water last it did not go down or change color. So My plan is to change the oil. I just drained the it and took the oil filter . no question it is nasty looking I will leave to drain all night. I put a 5 gall on bucket under it I got about 3 gal in it and had flat one as well may 1 1/2 gal . I need to flush it I know it is not a good idea to put diesel thru the engine , there must be something I can use to flush it
Hello all , Just to update for a week now I worked on the D3 B . Mainly fluid change and filters , screens etc. Today I started ran it for a while for the engine to warm in 95 deg Alabama Fall. it did fine, oil is good with indication of water. I also rebuild all Hydraulic cylinder that also was needed . the steering is not good . I have loosed the break pad to make sure it was not stuck.. part of the week was spend into the steering clutch compartment to make sure the brake pad was loose and no oil in the compartment . that is also good. These are new clutches I will this week make sure all rod are adjusted. Welcome any suggestion
Did you check the rollers on the cams that operate the steering clutch valves? Common to get flat spots on them and won't let steering clutches completely engage.
Dave , a while back I rebuild steering clutches and fixed the cam the roller wore a groove on it. I will check it
will have to rebuild the track adjuster , it is not holding tension Can it be done with out breaking the track apart
Not if you have to take it apart to put new seals in.
I took the UC apart and removed the Yoke , the seal were aged and dry, obviously needed to changed, Also found one of those ring is cracked. I think it have to be repaced
here the track adjuster ,track apart, sealscare ready to go, waiting for one part
Do yourself a favour and throw a chain or a ratchet strap over the spring please. You do realize that the only thing holding the spring from flying out and killing someone are those two stops that I've circled don't you..? They don't call them Death Springs for nothing ……….
that is right Nige, and i went and looked at 3 or 4 loaders with 3204 and they are bad to pit thought block, they are not sleed blocks.
Huh??? Do you mean sleeved? 3204 has to be bored but if the bore is too bad can be bored oversize and a sleeve installed.
Nige , Great comment thank you for your observation , this afternoon I did just that put a chain over the spring while chasing parts. Just a question the steel ring or sleeve that goes over the seal I found one cracked , my intuition is to replace it. does have to be replaced
If it's cracked it really ought to be replaced otherwise the chance is that the new seal could get damaged in short order.
here is the chain , always try to be safe
D3B Update Hello all , Rebuild the track adjuster , assembled the track and pump it up all loo looks good, Got back on the steering clutch , rebuild the control valve just bunch of ring. Today I checked the oil pressure in the steering clutch there is Zero pressure. Any thoughts?. Just to answer Dave , The Roller are fine
Check the pump suction strainer (bottom of transmission).
Hello Old Magnet Good to hear from you it has been a while , I checked the strainer on the top right of the transmission. how do you get the bottom strainer. this Dozer is D3B 23 Y 3 F 1 R Thank you for your support
What you checked is the pressure filter. The suction strainer is at the bottom of the transmission case, either a horizontal strainer accessible from a cover plate at the back of the transmission or later models have a vertical strainer behind a cover plate on the bottom of the transmission. Will require draining the transmission.
OK great I will check it in the morning , I would like to know how to check the oil pressure properly on this machine. according to the manual , plug the gauge on the side behind the sprocket but there are plugs on top of the trans. one sit by it self on the top right side . the manual said it has to be taking off it order to check the pressure. is that correct?
The test port I know about is on the side of the steering clutch case...
3F/1R trans. has a strainer and 3F/3R uses a filter. 23Y ??? Need rest of serial number to know for sure what it has but my 1986 931B (loader) 25Y1916 has a strainer on the back of the trans. held on by 3 bolts. The test ports are on the side like shown.
serial Number: D3 B 23Y 01245 Trans Arrangement : 7G 6822
The transmission pump pressure test port (B) is under the transmission cover. Pressure should be 280 to 300 psi.
hi magnet here are picture of transmission bottom
just could not see any possible place for screen
I don't have a parts book for the 23Y What I have shows transmission arrangement 7G6820 and 7G6823 This is the screen used and is typical for the 3F/1R transmission.
you are right , the arrangement is 7G6822, this screen is the one I cleaned it on the right of the transmission.when I took it out it was dirty , and had metal shaving. today I took out the control valve insured again the roller was good and made sure the spool was clean. Tomorrow I will install the control with steeriing clutch cover to make sure the slave cylinder if working
Sorry, my bad on location. Seems you have a steering clutch control problem or pump is not producing required pressure.
Great that is it , I cleaned that one what I wrote above did not make sense I will install the control valve on top steering clutch with out the cover to observe the slave cylinder in operation
please look at item c , does it mean it has to be removed in order to check the pressure
Only if you are checking the primary transmission clutch pressure.
Are you getting any oil in the clutch compartments? See if there is oil when you take the plugs out of the side by the sprockets. There is a short steel line in the clutch compartment going to the cylinder that could possibly be leaking. If you have oil at there, the line(s) are probably OK.
Dave , there are no hydraulic leaks from tubes or cylinder
hi Magnet, here few picture s inside the steering clutches. I suspect the adjusting rod got loose. the piston was out farther than specs
if you look at the first picture the piston adjusting rod was loose and the lock nuts were loose on both cylinder. anyway at this point gonna rebuild the cylinders, install, make sure they are adjusted and snug the lock nut.
Back on the D3B after long year . In the mean time I had rebuild all hydraulic cylinder , rebuild the steering control and steering cylinder. Put it back together this week . No hydraulic leaks but no steering I ran it could not get the steering cylinder to move . Put pressure gauge on it checking the steering cylinder pressure . no pressure at all Back to the drawing board.
Here are control valves. Just tested them for leaked as Mr Magnet suggested
Here are few picture. Basically used air blower with rubber tip As you see took out the interconnecting hoses. Used jic plugs tested the valves one at time for leaks. The right side showed no leak. It pushed piston out. The left side held pressure but would not push the piston. Took one of plugs out on the same valve. As I pushed the left steering cam the other plug would not seal off. It leaked.
All that said 1. We have a control valve leak 2.need to find why is it leaking 3 is my diagnosis correct.that the spool suppose to seal off completely the other inlet
Just an update , Took out the steering control valves for inspection. did not find anything suspicious. rebuild them with new seals , made sure the rollers were in good shape. Cleaning the rods thread to make sure i have plenty of adjustment. slow progress
Decided to Che k out the rest of the machine. Oil cooler and radiator are removed.
Coil cooler water line totally blocked with crud and rust.
Seems you may have a leaking spool/housing on one of the valves. They do wear out and I understand it is difficult to get replacements so you may be forced to use a later valve which will require modifications to the control linkage and bracket that mounts the valve.
Hello magnet good to hear from you My apologies for the interruption on working on the dozer. This dozer does not have many hours only 3000 hrs. mostly it sat and now I am paying for it. my intention to restore it into a good working condition. 1- the oil cooler allowed water in the engine. getting flushed , cleaned and new seals 2- Radiator being checked , cleaned and if necessary repaired 3- steering clutches were rebuild hardly used. 4- Engine start and run real good Just need to get these bugs out. as far as the control valve just got new seal and rebuild it that appear to make it tighter. you said i other post it can be checked with air pressure. can explain that procedure
Nothing fancy, using compressed air to check leakage past the spool is less messy than dealing with oil. Just supply air to the normal oil supply in with other ports open and see/hear what happens. Gauge hook up is optional depending on what you suspect.
Hey Magnet, Got the radiator and oil cooler back today , all tested good . this eliminate the oil cooler as the culprit for the coolant in the engine oil. Next step on this issue is replacing head gasket.
There is something that can corrode but I can't remember what. I think it was something aluminum. The shop that did my engine had a D3B in their yard that a customer abandoned. They had to replace something that corroded because it had sat for about a year and a half. They said it's good to start them and let them run every once in awhile even if you're not using them. Just don't idle them for long periods.
Welder Dave I agree with you . I had steering issues with This particular machine. I got busy with Family illness . Now I am doing all kind of improvement on it . rebuild all cylinders , line bored blade , new pins. etc. I modified the battery cables to put 2 batteries , this makes it more dependable and start anytime cold or hot.
Hello again Just got back on the machine reinstalled the radiator and oil cooler. Well am gona let the picture speaks
Found the oil cooler hose was totally blocked. I had the cooler earned and tested up to 50 psi. The radiator also cleaned
Did flush the engine out till it was all clear. Then installed all hoses and filled with antifreeze.. My plan is to test the coolant to make sure it is not leaking into the oil. Now that the cooler and hoses are all clear. My radiator tester did not have big enough cap to hold pressure. Gona borrow one from my friends at the shop
My 931B uses an 8D battery. If the battery is charged and it won't start, it's not because of a battery issue. To me dual batteries are just more connections to corrode and/or cause problems. It's only a 65 HP engine.
Hi Dave , the reason I went to 2 batteries i found from the starter engineer at Wilson that a safe procedure built into the starter requires 1000 ca this keep the starter from burning. so for me after checking the battery over time will not keep 1000 ca. so simply using 850 ca type batteries without any mod they fit in the box. just mode the cables on any giving time cold etc will always have more that 1000 CA
Just to update on the coolant in Oil installed the radiator and cooler , filled with new coolant. I assumed that the cooler and hose being plugged as it was were the problem. rained all oil and left the drain plug off and placed a clean container under it. I put pressure test the system tested well , hold pressure did not leak at all. did this for several times on different days leaving the test on from 10 min to 40 min. noticed no coolant leak at all. Finally yesterday , look at the container there was fresh green antifreeze . the pressure tester was not on. Note: temperature dropped to 24 I started pulling the head will see what kind of surprise.
Guys hope everyone had a good safe new year JUst to update on the D3 B 23 Y. I took the head off to the machine shop. it cleared the pressure test and no cracks. The block looks really clean. measure the bore in the block. it show no wear. all within standard specs 4.50, top 4.5 bottom 4.503. still did not find any reasons for the coolant to g in the engine. short story. taking the engine to shop for refreshing, with new bearing , new style piston ( 3ring) and of course testing for crack. over the weekend strted on it , it should come out anytime.
Looks like someone has been refilling that with creek water every morning. Glad you found a reason for the problems.