On my D4D #78A5667 tractor we tried pulling all the glow plugs to see what condition they were in. Two came out ok & two did not (one of the ones that came out had a crack on the electrode end). One of the stubborn ones came out part way & then the tread started binding, so we ran it back in. Put tester on & they all draw around 4.5 amps on 24volts. I see that the one appears to have a number on it, which looks to be "A73" (not sure of the number). I would like to check into getting a new set seeing that one had a crack in it. Anyone know if that may be a good number & who makes it if in fact it is available through aftermarket? It is the original motor in the unit as the same ser# in on the engine block. Also, we need to pull the injectors to get at the stubborn glow plugs. Does anyone know how to identify the special socket or tool that turns out the injector body? My parts book does not show that style of injector body. See the attached photos.
D4 I believe you will need a Cat 5F-8353 tool for removing the pre-cumbustion chamber. Remember to drain the coolant and order new pre-cup "O"-rings and gasket. The pre-cups can be stuck in place and hard to remove. Good luck, Coaldust
Well SIS is a bit strange on your serial number, it says there are no 78A prefix numbers. I can find the prefix on iron planet but not at CAT go figure. I used a 74U prefix for a later model D4D and found the following info. Older glow plug number is 1P-7324 and newer one is 4N-0360. Now my 955L uses the same 1P-7324 glow plugs. They were real easy to remove/replace, just put a socket on them and unscrewed them. Found some on ebay a few years ago for dirt cheap. It came with 6 in the bunch so I wound up with two extras. Hope this helps Edit: I did soak them over night in PB blaster
I believe 78A is a machine assembled and sold outside of the US. There was a post the other day on the ACMOC bulletin board with charts attached converting the numbers to US equals. There is also several posts discussing how to make a tool and about removing stubborn injectors. Hope this help you.
The D4D 78A series is a USA built machine from 1963 to 1968. 78A5667 is a 1966 built model. The original pre-combustion chambers were part #9H5888 RPB #2S9793. The original glow plugs were part #4S7824 = #1P7324 = #3T9562 and several others. 5F8353 is the correct chamber removal tool. 4.5 to 5 amps per glow plug is about right.
Ritchie Wiki says the 78A's were US manufactured as well. Thanks for sending the information re the various parts & numbers. I have emailed our local Cat dealer & will see what they come back with.
Thanks for the information. Sounds like you have done this job before?
As mentioned on my post, 2 glow plugs came out, one would not move (we were afraid of breaking it) & one threaded out part way & the threads started to bind up. We tried a lubricant, going back & forth etc. but it would not come, so we threaded it back in as far as it would go & left it for now. Hope to get the removal tool & then go back at it.
Not unusual to have the glow plugs stick or break off in the chambers. They are a stepped diameter affair that makes it pretty difficult to remove the broken ones. Probably best just to replace both the glow plug and chamber. Be sure to use plenty of anti-seize when replacing both.
I got the #5F8353 extraction tool in, expecting that it would fit over the external portion of the injector housing but it is different. It looks the same as the photo that Coaldust put up, but I had thought it may have the right size spline on the inside of the hex...not the case. We have not taken things apart yet.....maybe this smaller spline fits the inside of the body somehow?
Yup, remove the fuel line, remove the threaded adapter, the body is splined down inside. Never made sense to me, but that's the way Cat did it.
I can't tell for sure from your picture but I think I see a splined retaining nut. That is not the normal D4D setup. It's what was used on the regular D4 and requires a splined socket part #8S2243 for removal plus the D4 used a 3H2033 glow plug. Should be a part number on the glow plug or I have dimensions for the D4 unit to check. The 3H2033 glow plug has 5/16 threaded section, the D4D unit should be 3/8 thread.
Old Magnet, I just went out & took this photo on another D4D Parts machine I have (#78A6909) & the injector setup looks the same on the 2nd machine. Are you saying that outer spline appearing in the photo is how the body is removed? If so, my tool that I just picked up is wrong? My glow plugs have 3/8" #24 thread on them.
To remove the injector you first have to remove the retaining nut which is an exterior spline that you see and takes the internal splined thin wall socket to remove it. Once the retaining nut is removed you can remove the body and injector nozzle which gives you access to the internal spline in the pre-combustion chamber where the tool you have is used for removal.
So is #8S2243 the correct socket to remove the exterior spline shown in my last picture?
Yes, but it may have been superseded by a different number. Started out as a 2H7479 RPB the 8S2243. Also works for removing the retainers on the compact fuel injection pumps.
Is it too late to suggest that they be left alone. If they are drawing 4.5 amps then they are working. That power is making them get hot and that is what you want. What is the symptom you are having?
One of the glow plugs that came out (2 refused) had a crack near the bottom, so thought it may be good to replace them. I have the new ones now. Also when the machine starts cold it has a miss for quite a while & eventually once warm, it will hit on all four & smooth out. I understand if we can get the injectors out, we can have them bench tested for performance & go from there.
Usual check is to move the injector to a known good cylinder and see if the problem follows. Capsules are cheap enough it hardly warrants testing.
I have seen these precups in 3304's and 3306, remove the injector line, remove the nut at the top of the precup, remove the nozzle, slide your removal tool in the hole and hope the last guy put neverseize on the threads!! New o-rings, new glow plugs, new nozzles and lots of neverseize, shouldn't have any headaches for a long time!
Your miss-fire is most probably a duff valve, this I can often spot on start up, the capsules are not worth testing with most injection shops having little knowledge on them, the back chamber (No 4-6) has a tighter range to position the glow plug in so study your service book on the correct position for the glow plug, each plug draws 5 amps so 4 plugs = 20 amps 6 plugs = 30 amp draw on dash gauge, the plugs are best tested with a small battery charger set on low so you can see things warm up, multi meters are not the best thing to test these items. tctractors
8s2243 Here is a picture of 8S2243 next to a .44 Bullet for size comparison. This tool has a very thin wall and just look how small it is compared to the size of a pre-cup. I use it for removing the retaining nut on plunger and barrel assemblies in fuel inj. pumps, like you said. So, it works on pre-cups too?
Do you suspect a bad valve as the problem corrects itself after it warms up & an injector problem would not improve when warm? BTW, my parts book does not show parts diagrams & numbers for the capsules, pre combustion chamber, all gaskets & O-rings for the D330 #78A 5667. If anyone has that parts breakdown I would appreciate it. I already have the new glow plugs & just ordered the 2nd socket (8S2243) today.
Where are you looking in the parts book? I have form UEO35100 for the 78A1-up parts book. Look on pages 21H and 33B (near the injection pump). I may have given you a bum steer on the splined retaining nut. Looks like the splines are on the chamber itself and serve no useful function. The retainer nut is the hex nut just below the tube nut. Different than the D4 with glow plugs. Sorry if I misled. If you can't find the info I can post. Oddly enough when you go to the tool catalog for glow plug removal tools it directs you to a group that includes the splined socket for the D330. But it doesn't necessarily mean all the tools in the group are used.
Metalman, that is correct the miss fire will heal up as things come on song and the engine heats up, but it will most probably spit the dummy out after a bit of hard graft has been stuffed home, in U.S. verbs its about to "calve down" so it might be time to pop off the head, its about 2 to 3 hours work to pop off the head and all the bits, if you do this turn off the tap on the fuel tank, the Combustion chambers are low cost items non O.E. tctractors
I notice when I idle down, it makes a "ka-chu, ka-chu, ka-chu" like sound out the exhaust & the frequency of the sound makes me think it may be on one cylinder only. Think that a leaky valve may leave a sound like that? That sound has been the same ever since I have owned the machine which has been about 2 1/2 years, not getting noticeably worse.
My parts book only goes as far as 21D, then on to 22 & only 33 (no A, B...) I do have the #8S2243 removal tool now. The temps are moderating somewhat (working outside), so we plan to try pull the glow plugs (hoping that none break) & do a compression test on the D330 within the next day or 2 & go from there. Our local Cat dealer has access to all the required gaskets, ferrule's & seals if we break off any glow plugs & need to pull the head off. Where should the compression be at on the D330?
Cat does not utilize compression tests to evaluate engines. They do rely on air pressure leak down tests. That being said I'd expect compression pressures of 530 to 580 psi with engine cold and cranking at 200 - 300 rpm. Here are the parts pages for the head and injectors for your s/n tractor. Be aware that there are several different heads, and chambers utilized so be sure yours is a match.
First you need to remove the fuel lines. 3/4 inch wrench then use a socket that fits that lower hex, forget but it may be a 1 inch socket. Then grab on the threaded part the fuel line was fastened to and the adapter and nozzle should come out. Sometime need to screw one end of the fuel line back on to give something to grab on to without damaging the treads. Once the nozzle and adapter are out the shiny new tool you bought will drop right into the hole. Just be sure you drained the coolant as you will be opening a large hole into the water jacket when you unscrew the pre-chamber. When you remove the pre-chamber there will be a thick washer like ring on the bottom end where it screws into the head. It may stay on the pre-chamber or stay in the head. There are a few different sizes of these you will need to use to get the glow plug in the right position. It's getting late so if no one else give you the directions I'll get them to you tomorrow. I can also probably explain those large external spines. I watched them make these pre-chambers in Peoria years ago. They start out as two pieces, upper and lower halves. One half is chucked in a machine and held stationery and the other half is put in a fixture that spins at high speed. Once up to speed the two are shoved together causing hug amount of friction. The mating areas turn red and sparks fly then everything stops. Now they are one piece! I figure the large external spline are there to help with this process as it must create a huge amount of torque when things get welded that way. Only takes a few seconds start to finish.
That does make sense to make use of the splines to drive the friction weld process but many/most chambers don't have that external feature. I suppose the same could be done using the internal splines. I was under the impression that chambers were furnace brazed together. Any feed back on that process? Fooled myself into thinking that was the splined nut used on the earlier D4's. Should know better than rely on an old memory.
Here is an interesting tidbit of info for ya regarding per-cup chamber removal. I was stuck out on a remote Alaskan job site many years ago trying to get a 50kw Cat genset running. The old 3304PC engine had overheated because of a coolant leak and melted the pre-cup o-rings. So, I had to remove the pre-cups but I didn't have the tool with me. I was called out to fix a shovel and then was asked if I could help with the gen issue so I wasn't really set up for engine work. The tool was probably at least 3 or 4 days out, and this generator powered the camp, so I was highly motivated to fix it. I somehow discovered that the splines inside the Caterpillar pre-cup are the same size as the splines for a Detroit Diesel blower drive shaft (quill shaft). I cut the drive shaft in half and welded it to a old socket. I still have the homemade tool it and it works great. I believe it was a Detroit 8v-92. Which are known to shear the blower drive shafts. That's my story. Coaldust