Had a Cat undercarriage tech visit and check my D4H tracks out. Attached is the report. Question for track experts, I have always run the chain (based on my grandfathers advice) until the bushings wear thru to the pins, but I keep reading not to do that, so, do I replace them now or run till I wear thru to the pins? I have over 1" of adjustment left. Cat tech of course advised against it but he also wants to sell parts. Cat has 20% off this month on undercarriage parts. I think they quoted about $1700 a side for SALT chains.
The numbers look odd to me, rollers in good shape, bushings 60% worn, but link height at 120% worn? As long as you don't have dry joints and you have room between the pin bosses and the track roller flanges, I would run them until the bushings get eggshell thin or start to crack. Don't push it beyond that, it's not good for the finals once the bushings start to open up. Just my two cents worth. Do swap the track rollers as suggested if possible.
One question to start with. Are the track links OEM Cat or aftermarket ....?? If they are Cat can you see a Part Number cast into them just under the shoes..? That will indicate what type of link you have, and give a guideline for a lot of other components as well. I'm looking at undercarriage wear tables for D4H and the numbers I'm seeing for measurement vs wear percentage bear no relation to a lot of what appears on your undercarriage report, specifically in regard to link, bushing, & grouser height (shoe) wear. It would have been nice if the tech who did the measurements had put the Part Numbers in the boxes as required by the SOP for completing a Cat CTS report ....... He recommends replacing the sprocket segments but doesn't give any measurements to back his recommendation despite the fact a wear table exists. What's wrong with that picture..? Idlers, track rollers, & carrier rollers all make sense with one exception. See below.... LH side carrier roller measures 5.78" which equals 56% worn. Your report indicates the same. All good so far. RH side measures 5.92" which by my tables equals 40% worn compared to the 63% indicated in your report. As the surface of the roller wears the diameter reduces. So how can a roller that measures 0.14" more in diameter than another have 7% more wear on it than the first one...? It's obvious it has less wear, not more. I'd agree with swapping the rollers from the ends to the centre to even out the wear in the future. The only proviso is that single & double flange rollers need to be kept in the same relative position on the track frame even though any particular roller can be moved from one location to another. Rollers can even go from one side of the tractor to the other if you need to do that.
I removed a shoe to replace loose bolts and do not remember seeing a part number on top of the link (I am sure they are aftermarket). The bushings have very little oval wear on them by feel. During the inspection, the tech stated all the pins were dry based on the space between the links. This guy seemed new at the job, he had to call someone to figure out how to turn on the ultrasound meter. Not that it will help much but attached are some pictures of the links. It has been raining for a week or I would have taken some better pictures. Interesting to note, all the bottom track rollers are double flange.
The Part Number (if it's a Cat link) will be on the outside of the link right up at the top just below the track shoe, not on the top of the link. inside the red circle on the photo below. Your track rollers on your D4H should be 6 single flange and 8 double flange. They are ordered S D D S D D S with SF rollers front, centre, & rear with the rest DF. Having DF rollers in the #1 & #7 positions could cause some really weird link, pin & bush wear. If he didn't know how to turn on the ultrasonic machine that doesn't bode well. As I said before the actual measurements of links, bushes, & shoes bear no relation to anything I can find. Edit: Try to measure the tracks to see if there is significant pitch extension that would lead the Cat tech to say the pins/bushings are badly worn inside. Put the dozer blade against something solid and gently push forward, then put the park brake on while holding the tractor on the brakes. This will give you a tight section of track at the back between the sprocket and the rear idler. Measure the distance across 3 x track pitches (Pin #1 to Pin #4 in other words) and divide by 3. Measure in various places on the tracks and come back with the results.
The fact that the bushings have little wear coupled with the pictures of near perfect sprockets tells me there's few if any dry joints. The rails don't look bad, to me the key here is when the roller flanges start to hit the pin bosses. I can't really tell from the pictures, but with the rollers being less than 50% worn I would think you have a lot of life left in your undercarriage. If there's a good sale on and you're planning on putting lots of hours on it consistently, go ahead and buy a spare set, but go ahead and run what you have out. As long as the rails mate smoothly with the sprockets you won't hurt anything by running it until either the bushings start to open up or the pins get knocked loose by the roller flanges. May not look pretty but it will do a lot of work before you have to replace it all. YMMV Again, my humble opinion based on the pictures.
I'm with Lantraxco; judging from the looks of the sprocket, and the fact that you say the wear on the bushings is not bad, I would be surprised if the pins are worn more proportionally. I am a bit surprised that you have only an 1" of adjustment left unless they have been run too tight a lot, but I would run them as is at least until you are out of adjustment. At that point I would evaluate removing a link as opposed purchasing new rails, but I would likely go with replacing the rails @ $1700 per side. As Nige mentioned, things seem amiss with the inspection report.
Oh, BTW I just remembered, if those rails are aftermarket the CAT measurements may not mean diddly, it was not uncommon back when I was heavily into steel tracks to see brand new aftermarket rails that would measure 30% worn when new or the opposite, -10% or in other words better than new. They didn't always make them exactly to CAT spec.
I would refer the honourable gentleman to the first line of Post #3 - "Are the track links OEM Cat or aftermarket ....??" The fact that the OP came back in Post #4 and gave the information that the track rollers are all DF has got me thinking somone's been busy replacing undercarriage on this machine before......and not necessarily done a very good job of it either ........
Quit raining enough this morning to take a closer look. Washed a few off and they are Cat (pic attached) and I was able to look at both sides, the left side track rollers from front to back SDDDDDS, right is SDDSDDS.
OK, so someone at some point has replaced an SF roller in the centre of the track frame on the LH side with a DF. Not the end of the world although it does limit your options for swapping roller positions to even out the wear, especially with the rear SF rollers on both sides being the highest % worn and needing moving ASAP. TBH I'd bite the bullet and move the SF rollers from the rear to the centre, take the 15% SF roller from the RH centre and move it to the rear, and install a brand new SF roller on the LH side. Please can you measure the track pitch as per my suggestion in Post #5 and report back. They should measure 6.75" centre-to-centre from one pin to the next but as I said before it's easier to measure across 3 link pitches (should be 20.25" give or take) and then divide by 3 to get an average. To see if you have any dry joints that have caused excessive wear in one particular pin/bush interface do a visual inspection of each joint to see if you can detect any elongation. Hint: a finger can be a useful tool for this purpose. See photo below, you want to be trying to get a suitably-sized finger in the gap between the 2 links in the centre of the circle. Any pin joint with major extension you'll be able to tell straight off because instead of having to squeeze your finger into the gap it'll fall straight through. Judging by the chrome showing in the tensioner I wouldn't expect too much in the way of bad joints although there is always the possibility of an odd one. Back to the links. These are Cat rotating bushing track link groups and it's quite possible the tech used the wrong wear table because there are 3 other options to choose from. With a 12" steel rule across the underside of the tracks measure the height from the ruler to the underside of the shoe right at the centre of the pin as shown in the diagram. Measure a dozen or so of the links on each all in the same place (make sure everything is relatively clean so that dirt doesn't affect your measurements) and provided they are all pretty close to one another take an average. Post the value for the average measurement for the LH & RH sides back here. If you can post the values in millmetres so much the better. To give you an idea, a new link should measure 106mm in height, a 100% worn link 97mm, and a 120% worn link 94.5mm.
Got some numbers to report, to the best of my ability I measured three locations on each side for pitch, LH averaged 6.77", RH averaged 6.76". Link height LH side 6 links averaged 102mm, RH side averaged 103mm.
Hey, you have years left in them, lol
You pitch measurement appears to be right in the ball park. Did you find any "gaping" joints in the links..? An odd one or two per track would not surprise me TBH. Link wear The 102mm on the LH side equates to 48% wear The 103mm on the RH side equates to 36% wear. Both these figures are approximate. Bearing in mind the dealer tech said the links were around 120% worn this does not compute. I'd bet money that the external wear on the bushes is maybe 30% instead of the 60% in the report. I think that now might be the time to call the dealer guy, get him back to the machine and front him up with the discrepancies between what you're measuring and his report...... If you want to have a bash at measuring the track shoe grouser wear feel free. Like the links measure a dozen or so and come up with an average. See the illustration below. The only things to note is that the tracks must be tight (between the sprocket and the rear idler is a favourite) and the straight edge needs to be about 1/3 of the width of the shoe in from the edge of the shoe, it doesn't matter if it's the inside or the outside. A new shoe will measure 47mm high, a 100% worn one 19mm. I have no idea what the measurements on his report relate to. Oh, and if you get him back tell him to measure the sprockets and come up with a wear % for them also. If you want to take advantage of the 20% dealer discount offer as per your OP there's no reason why you couldn't buy the new chains and store them until you need them, even if at the end of the day the conclusion is that the tractor doesn't need them right now.
Reminds me of few years ago when I bought my 933, the previous owner had told me he replaced the tracks about 1500 hours earlier, had a different cat tech come look at the tracks and after doing all the measurements, I asked him when he thought I would need to replace the undercarriage. He asked how many hours have I run it, I told him about 150 hours a year but will be less as I get done with the major work. He looked at my property and looked at me and kind of nonchalantly stated "how long do you plan on living?" I got his point.
All joviality aside, I do think it behoves you to get the tech back on site and have him measure the undercarriage correctly this time, just so you know what you've got. I'm sure his boss would be less than pleased to hear your story. As I see it the measurements of the following undercarriage components need re-doing: - Track shoe grousers Link height Bush wear (external) Sprocket segment wear And tell him to complete the report correctly with Part Numbers as per SOP before he gives it to you. I'd pay good money to see his face when you tell him..........
Thanks Nige, who needs a cat tech with your teaching and mentoring but I will call the Cat tech this week. I think I have learned more on this thread than he knows. I did measure several shoes when I had it in my shop, they averaged about 32 mm but I measured in the center of the shoes. 20% off from Cat is a good deal but I doubt I will put more than 500-700 hours on it over the next 10 years.
32mm on the shoes would equate to somewhere around 50-55% worn. Slightly less than on your report but with all the other inconsistencies I'd be wanting it done again and want to be standing over him while he did it. When he comes out to the machine again you can baffle him with your knowledge .......
So I am left wondering where the ghost roller he measured is located. I have never seen a D-4H with 8 rollers, but there are 8 listed on the CTS report. On a further note, I would swap the rollers as Nige recommended, and the rest will quite probably last the 700 hours expected out of it over the next 10 years. A few years down the road you may need to regrouser the pads, if traction is an issue, but I would run it as long as no new problems turn up.
Good spot Jerry. Shows what a fresh pair of eyes can find...... I'm getting to the point where I think this clown's boss needs to be brought up to speed ......
I found myself surprised that you had not caught that one already. I agree, this PSSR needs some more training. This is a great thread for others to learn from as well. I am sure the OP will get a good time out of seeing the look on the face of the tech when he comes back to get educated.
LOL, where Nige has worked they only used D4H's to clean the shop floors :tong
I saw that also when Nige listed the order they should be positioned and I looked to see what I really had, I figured he measured the rear idler with the meter and listed it. As Nige has stated, there are several errors on the report, one you guys did not know is it had the incorrect serial number on the report, I just ignored it as a made up SN since the hours were not accurate. I wonder if he mixed numbers from another dozer he inspected that day.
Hey, shop floors need a good cleaning once in while...
Now he tells us .............
Sorry:beatsme, he listed the correct dozer model, I looked up the serial number he listed in iron record and it is for a track loader.
I think maybe a phone call to the tech and ask him did he send you the correct report (because it's got the wrong Serial Number and hourmeter reading on it) might be the first thing to do.
Spoke with the tech today, he is sticking to his numbers, stated the serial number was a mistake but used the correct wear numbers. I will keep at it.
Does this dealer have a used parts department? Anymore these days it wouldn't shock me that they give a hot deal to replace 50% undercarriage, then sell the take off. Customer would obviously have to let them keep the old parts. Sorry if I offend anybody; I just have a hard time trusting anybody anymore.
Tell us when we should order the popcorn and the comfy couch ..... :stirthepot
Well, I made my point with the tech and the local dealer service manager seems uninterested in my story (the tech is from another store, not my local one). So, based on what I learned in this thread, I am confident the tracks are not close to failure which is good. My initial intent was to see if I needed to replace anything and take advantage of Cat discounts this month if I needed parts. As far as I am concerned, the show is over, the plus size, curvy lady has sang... To Shimmy1's point, it is hard to trust some nowadays. That is why I like to work on my own equipment, I like learning but just no experience to get it done.
And when guys like Nige and Lantraxco pitch in and help out on forums like this, it really makes the task a lot less daunting. Great job guys:thumbsup
In that case find out who the tech's boss is at the other store and blow in his ear ........ if it was me who'd been ***ked around like you have I'd be spitting nails by now.
Well, it looks like they are going to try again. The lead tech and manager called and wants to visit this afternoon. They seem to be sticking with the initial assessment to replace links even if the height measurement may be off a little because the first tech told them I have several dry links on both sides. They also told me pitch measurement was not a good indication for replacement. I asked them to review the report and tell if anything caused concern. Both only repeated what the report stated, I will have them count the track rollers when they come out. It will be interesting to see if they are serious or if this is just a sales visit. I know I am small potatoes, I only have three pieces of equipment, but I buy all cat products, even oil from them, they do not need to upsell on buying cat parts.
Well when they come point out the following to them from the report: - 1. The tractor only has 7 track rollers not 8 as per the report. 2. There is no measurement for the rear idler, maybe the measurement for roller #8 is actually the rear idler measurement, but it's still an error because it's in the wrong place on the report. 3. There are no part numbers for the various undercarriage parts such as links, etc, etc, listed in the report as per Cat SOP for completing one. Let's face it, it's not hard if the Part Number is written right on the side of the link, and probably on the sprocket segments as well... You found it easily enough, why couldn't he..? 4. There are no measurements in the report for the sprockets yet he recommended replacing them. My response is "Show me the numbers to justify replacement". ....... and all that's BEFORE you get to the difference in wear measurements between the report and what you've found with the help of this forum. When they come out ask them to measure the undercarriage the old-fashioned way using calipers, straight edge, and steel rule. Stand over them while they are doing it. Afterwards if they want to measure it using the ultrasonic doodah then fine. At least if they do it the first way you can understand the measurements they're taking.
And you want me to call CAT to measure mine ? Ron
Let's face it, two dealer stores can't both be that bad surely...?
I sure hope not.
The guy who measured my track loader two years ago was outstanding, he even made run it looking for problems and provided in an email about how many hours I should start being concerned with replacement for the components. So far he has been right on with my idlers needing to be replaced
And another ...... 5. The report is not marked to indicate if the track rollers are single or double flange. If it had been the tech would have spotted the DF roller that had been installed in position #4 on the LH side to replace the SF roller that should have been there.