Hello gentleman , As the title sugest i´m interested in having a briefing on the correct fuel injection timming procedure for engine 3304 installed in a machine 1DD06574. Only injection pump timming with drip method or Dynamic timing i´m interested, not pump assembly procedure with the lock tool. Thanks very much
Hey Guys , no one in this forum with experience in Injector Pumps??? Thats seems rather odd Just looking for the numbers, i´m sure there must be a work sheet for this matter. If not empric knowledge very welcomed too. Thanks
The word "dynamic" means its moving or running. There are some special tools that can do that, but likely very expensive. I have done the "static" drip method on some non cat engines.
Yes , "dynamic timming" is used to establish SOI (start of injection) with resorce to elementary electronic tooling. Usually a controler with a clamp to sense injetor opening/closing and a strobe light to lit a target refered to TDC, with engine running at a predetermined speed. Mine is a stanadyne tool. for this we need the numbers for SOI relating to TDC. With this method one can set an almost perfect SOI in terms of combustion eficiency, very often reducing emissions , heat , and improving performance. Drip method is the second best aproach to an almost perfect SOI, nevertheless also the numbers are of great help. Installing a pump with lock tools, is at least in my planet, is only a good enough method to start the engine, so one can proceed to other methods, either by "listening" and trying and watch performance, exaust etc. Anyway, Numbers for SOI relating to TDC is needed. Thats what i´m looking for for CAT 3300 engines. Thanks
In the past I've gone to the Cat dealer and they let me look at, and will usually copy info from the manuals.
U still have that info?
Any info I was looking for was mostly on the older D8's, most of my shop time was keeping them going. So any info was specific to them. I'll have to look and see if I have any 3300 info.
Ok, old D8´s do not have the 3300 series engine... and some are IDI too so its diff numbers. I found this quite strange as this 3300 , had road going variants, and to what Pump Timming concerns should be same procedure as all others, no reason not to.
I normally take the timing plate off the side of the injection pump roll engine over by hand until the timing pin dropd see if a long 3/8 bolt will screw into the flywheel. If not pop the timing gear off of the injection pump line up screw in flywheel then turn pump until pin drops in tighten bolt on gear
Hy Dave, Thanks for your reply, that procedure, is almost identical to a MB OM366 engine, nevertheless it only guarantee‘s that the engine will start, and with the engine running u can fine time it, weather by trial and error or with electronic tool. What I’m looking for is the numbers to use with the electronic tool, or if they are not available from CAT( which I really doubt) numbers for drip method tune/installation. Road going engines need a fine timming tune, so as dozers, cause this has a large impact in performance and engine life, not counting emissions.
Mquinista, post a picture of your injection pump type and I will tell you how to check your pump setting via the drip method, if your engine has an advance retard timing gear I would be amazed as it's just 4 cylinders, I am thinking the pump is the sleeve metering type with the large plate bolted to the side? if it is you need a fuel supply with 25 psi of shop air going to the top of it and the throttle opened to max position, you need to fit a cut down fuel line on to No 1 cylinder element and turn the pump until you get only 12 to 18 drips per Min off the cut down pipe, you need to establish TDC No 1 on the cylinder and the cut down line needs to come off the fuel element and come away just a bit up from horizontal about 4 to 6" long, but I would just stick the timing pins in and set the lash on the gear correctly and tighten up the bolt holding the gear in place, you can also check the Set Point and I stick a digital Tacho on a fuel line and check the Low and High Idle speeds, nothing rocket science with this but possibly nothing to gain over the pin setting, does your pump have an AFRC (Air Fuel Ratio Control) a lumpy thing with a pipe to the inlet manifold??? tctractors
It looks like 12.5 degrees BTDC for 3304. See page 58 and 59 in the below link. I found this too. https://www.numeralkod.com/cross/archivemanuals/caterpillar/3304%20and%203306%20vehicle%20engine%20service%20manual%20reg01349-01/part%201.pdf
Just make sure you find the actual true top dead centre, otherwise its a waste of time
Hy, much of what u say its confusing, starting by advance mechanism... never seen a IP system with out one. Maybe u want to say that some systems have it in the engine to pump gear/sprockets, other systems have it inside pump. Nevertheless at rest any of this systems is in the idle position, and it should not be faking the timming, as long as the engine is turned in the right direction. Thats information "chidog" !!! 12.5º is in line with other DI engines that i had worked with. Thanks very much. Now another piece of information i read from a CAT paper , "add 2º for dynamic time procedure" using a timming tool we should aim to 14.5º for a advanced engine as per performance fine tune.
That link shows the manual and how to do it. I has a table to determine TDC or rather the piston position from TDC for the particular advance setting. By using a dial indicator through the injector hole in the head.
If the manual in the link is correct for his engine. True TDC is not needed. Just finding piston upper travel limit is needed to zero the dial indicator. Then a piston drop dimension is given in a table for the correct crankshaft angle. This is similar how it is done on large aircraft engines. Catch is the dial indicator has to be centered in the hole accurately.
Yep, that true… having a dial in the injector hole is a nice and easy way to determine TDC… another method is dropping a valve and read stem top… but this is if one can’t access the chamber anyother way. (Tricks of trade) Once established one marks FW or crank damper… then is just a mater of maths… I’ve seen the table method before but don’t like it… sometimes the dials are not long enough…and accurate enough… depending on your needs. anyway, for me this manual is gold… it also explain governor functions, and settings… thanks very much.
There is an advance and retard system that you will find on the 3306 fitted to Road Transport engines in particular, this is attached to the nose of the D.I. type pumps and can suffer from wear after high hours, all the messing about you are intending to do on an old D5H I cannot understand nor care about, the 12 to 13.5 Deg injection point on CAT engines is not a common injection point in most D.I. engines, CAT and to some extent Cummins are the only engine builders that make their own fuel injection systems, the 3304 engine is possibly described as a very simple engine with a long history before it in the 330C and beyond, it is fitted with Lanchester type Balance shafts and spacer plate construction and built to run well within it's power capability to enhance running, if you think that dropping a hight gauge into a cylinder and spill timing it is worth the effort on this little engine well Bless You, just thought it worth pointing out there is no front Damper fitted to a 3304 P.C or D.I. engine, it's just a belt pulley fixture that will take 15 to 20 ton effort to press off unless you have some " Tricks of Trade" for this feature. Best of Luck tctractors.
Ops, I certainly appreciate your words. I do not want to discuss SOI in other engines, at the moment the document our mate “chidog” posted is exactly what I needed.
Will work only if the valve guide is perfectly parallel to the center line of the cylinder. That is if your doing more than establishing upper most travel. Sure with known guide angle and valve diameter, it can be calculated.
Was just refering to TDC mark.
Hey chidog... After carefull reading that paper understood it aplies only to PC type engines , IDI models... Much of the information shall be valid but timming certainly is not. Do u happen to know where one can find same info for 3300 DI version of those engines? CAT is weird... same number for 2 diff types tecnology in their engines...
In my opinion that sounds close for both. A PC would be a slight delay maybe, but your talking milli seconds. I was lucky to find that info, it took a bit of time hunting for it.
Yep, u’re right, it’s not that far… it depends on pre cup style. Nevertheless without that info it’s lottery to find it… the sweet spot I mean. it just takes trial and error… I’ve remember to have read a paper mentioning 30% performance increase for the perfect time at the rated RPM and load… never gave it much attention before since I was most playing with automotive engines… and this tend to be high speed diesels with variable speeds and load ranges. keep trying … that’s what we can do.
gents take a look at this... i´m just curious where one can find the "static Value" for each engine... 3300 Engine Timing Measurement For Reduced Emissions And Improved Engine Performance/Life Caterpillar avsmanual.com
I've read through this and find it interesting only in that I would have to wonder why the small difference attained would make any real difference in machine performance over the long run. Pin timing or bracket plate timing was the only method available on the 3300 series engines I've put hands on in my early years. Is this some kind of esoteric exercise to say that something more accurate can be done? What is the use for the engine? You can tinker your life away on this kind of stuff but at what expense? Who is paying for it.
I can talk from my experience, of at least 30years... for the same IP , a well timed engine and with some tweeks in fuel and governor response gives a much smother and powerfull ride, if one can add 10% increase in power on the 150HP range engines , one ´ll burn a least less diesel. Some EU diesel engine manufacturers, offer/publish an IP assembly procedure, wich is for engine start after rebuild or major repair, after this, engine is suposed to be tested in bench to ascertain power output, and the information required for the fine tune is published for this operators in diff books. Of course if one set it like OEM´s say, either by locks, by drip , or by keys it will work, when all gears and chains do not have much back lash, but certainly not at the published power, and after 10k hours i really dought a lock system leaves any engine in a good operational timming. This is not snake fat i´m throwing here, u just do it and let us know what u find out... In the last 20 years we start to see CRD´s and all this knowledge, is lost now... just nerds like us using old crap machines, are fighting this problems. In my planet CAT mecanics go in the field and when machines do have a socket to plug a computer, they start to melt in sweat and phone calls and after give u a contact of some guy and a slap in your back... pls do not call us anymore
I have been working on CAT equipment for way over 50 years so have a bit of idea on fuel pump setting, on the D342 and D353 engines the TDC mark is a bolted on pointer that is often found to be incorrectly set and is well worth the time to check, the 3304-6 engine needs the gear wear taken care of by using the tool to take out the lash as the Bolt is torque set pulling the gear on to the taper, I do have the Spill Timing details for all types of fuel systems used on the 3304-6, this would include the P.C. fitted with the early compact pump, the Sleeve pump, also for the later pump on the D.I. engines, they all stick to the drip method. tctractors
I have rebuilt all three of those engines more than once and not found any issue outside of due care and caution that should be used for any engine assembly. If you are missing 10% of design performance, then you have more problems than fuel injection timing.
TC, As my understanding goes I couldn’t be more in agreement with u… I just need the number, how many degree’s is Start Of Injection BTDC in a 3304 DI, with 9 and 10mm plunguers, if u feel uncomfortable posting here send a PM. if not asking too much, which screw‘s are used to increase decrease MAX fueling? I’ll be very appreciated, and I’ll promise u a fine botle of wine Jonh c , that’s not the idea… it’s the oposite!! Fine tune it so it performs even better.
So the issue isn't timing, it's governor control?
its both, Timming being the most important... Then tweek the power, smoke , boost so u have a better performing machine/engine with same or better fuel consuption u had before.