Hi everyone, I have a problem with the center blade pivot pin, I recently heard a pop while dozing some hard ground. Upon inspection I found a piece of metal that I believe to be part of a broken bushing, and a snap ring that is clearly not retaining anything anymore. I thought it would be easy to see exactly what the problem was once I pulled everything apart. Well it seems that is much easier said than done! So how does it come apart? It seems both pins must be pulled from the top out, but how? I sourced the lifting eye from cat that is supped to me made for this but I cant seem to get it to budge. I've been soaking it with penetrating oil for several days now and I'm not having any luck. I cant even get it to spin. So is there something I'm missing? Like a bolt or dowel holding it in place? I'm attaching a couple of pictures to give a idea of what I'm working with. Any help greatly appreciated, Thanks.
You need a hydraulic cylinder, I don't remember what size thread but it is metric, Cat sales a piece of all thread. Pull top pin, that holds down bottom pin then pull bottom pin. If you are going to remove bottom link, usually pins will not come out, we cut them out.
The manual calls for a 50-ton cylinder and an 800mm (32") length of M30 all-thread to remove the pin if it will not lift out using the eyebolt.
Thanks for the help guys. So it sounds like I wasn't missing something, it really is just that stubborn to get out. So if I understand correctly the bottom pin has the same 30mm threads as the top pin I'm trying to pull now, correct? & that bottom pin is where the all-thread comes into play, right? I get the feeling this is the type of repair most people call the cat dealer to come fix, any clue what it would cost to have them come fix it? It seems like it could be fairly simple with the repair manual and correct tools. Now that I know I'm not going to break something else in the process, I'll try to rig something to pull it while I ponder calling the cat repair man.....
If you want the Service Manual procedure for removing those pins send me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll fire one off to you.
We used to have one of these machines, and it was a pain to remove those pins. Get any strain/load from the dozer blade off the pins, juice liberally with PB Blaster, hold your mouth just right and put some tape over the gage on the hydraulic pump powering the ram. (Just kidding on the tape thing ) Often the pins are stuck in the spherical bearing on the tilt cylinder and blade pivot. We used a combination of Blaster and heat to break the rust bond. Going back together, remember that antiseize is your best friend.
Yes .What a disgrace to Cat they no longer use black bolts,instead use the ''sure to seize'' zink crap ,and no anti seize. We have some old cats here and black bolts will come out after 6o yrs. On top of that ,so many places with no grease nipples. I hate to say it ,but I think Cat are no longer a first rate machine,just resting on their past reputation ,and charging like wounded bulls. Alas and I have always been a Cat fan. Regards
What does everyone think about letting this joint ride and putting the dozer back to work as is? I think the piece of metal I found is part of the outside of the spherical bearing. So what kind of damage will it cause?
I had a 5M , and the blade had a clip that would roll out if you angled the blade with a load on it. After putting the clip in a half dozen times I called my dealer and fussed a little. turned out there was a service bulletin that installed a retainer in place of this clip. Everytime I go to a sale and see a 5M always check to see if they've been fixed. I'm like others , you would expect better from CAT.
I had a brand new D5M XL in 2001 and it was a big disappointment. I had all kinds of electrical problems with the finger tip steering controls and other problems with performance. I have been a Cat man my whole life and it was hard for me to admit but my machine was a piece of junk and it was brand new. I got rid of the machine with less than 400 hours on it. I even had the Cat service tech tell me off the record that they were having all kinds of trouble with them and If he were me he would get rid of it. After I did I noticed D5M's for sale everywhere.
LT, the snap ring retains the bearing in the housing, letting it go will allow the bearing to move once it breaks loose from the rust. It will "waller" out the housing and require bore welding to repair. If it were mine, I would fix it now. If you are also the guy running it and keep a close eye on it, you "could" wait, but things get forgotten and overlooked, and before you know it, you have lots of bore-welding to do, and that gets expensive. Even when you own a bore-welding machine, the cost is one to avoid. As to the piece of metal in the first picture, it looks more like part of the broken snap ring that holds the bearing in place in the housing. If the bearing is moving in the housing, it may have more cracks than the one the factory puts in it to install the ball, which leads to failure and ruining the housing. Again, if it were mine, I'd fix it now.
The metal in the picture is a bent up snap ring, I didn't take a picture of the large piece that fell out. But I'm pretty sure its a chunk of the bushing or housing that goes around the ball. I am the only person that runs this machine, maybe if I put it back together and run it some while soaking it in PB blaster constantly it will loosen up enough to get it apart. The local cat dealer is supposed to be working me up a estimate but I haven't heard anything yet. Thanks for all the input!
Just a update so others can learn from my misfortune. So apparently there was a recall dealing with the spherical bearing on this machine, the local dealer told me had that it would have been free if it was repaired before 2004. Cat no longer makes the bearing that I was originally trying to replace. The new redesigned bearing requires a new housing to be welded to the blade which is a real project. The cat dealer didn't volunteer this information until everything was apart and we realized the bearing they sold me was clearly not the right one. The two lower pins had to be cut out as someone mentioned above. I ended up replacing the dog bone also, once apart it was clearly bent and twisted. I'm not sure if that was also a recall piece but the new bone was cast. All in all this turned out to be a very expensive, difficult and irritating experience. Thanks again to everyone for there help.
Yair . . . Re Motat's comments post #7. Is that correct that Cat actualy use zinc bolts? I just gave another manufacturer a piece of my mind about poor quality hardware. "Cat bolts" used to be the measure of excellence when speaking of how machinery was assembled . . . that "Cat" insygnia stamped on the head was displayed like a badge of honour and Grade 8 Cat was all we ever stocked. Cheers
You can still have Grade 8 bolts with zinc plate coating, they're no different strength wise from black bolts. Another thought for the OP. Often the Parts Dept have no idea of upgrade programs and simply sell you the parts. Now you have the information go see the Service Manager of the branch where you bought the parts and lay out the story. Ask him to enquire if Cat would entertain a Policy/Goodwill claim on the basis that you as the customer did not receive "Fair value" for the product you purchased, especially in view of the raft of structural modifications required to simply install a single replacement bearing. What have you got to lose..?
Definitely dont have anything to lose at this point. I'm pretty discouraged when it comes to my local cat dealer, I have had almost no luck getting information out of them. Most all of the information I've acquired was from here or local contractors that own or have experience with these dozers. Starting to think maybe I should have bought a Deere.........
just to let you know my 1999 D5mxl at 4300 hrs just started to also have the pivot bearing fall apart, I contacted the local CAT dealer and they described the new fix like you said a whole new bearing and mount on the back of the blade. There price was $6K way out of my price range when the parts are only around $800.00. Found a Heavy Mechanic that has done one before and hope to do for half the cost.
Parts were almost $4k for what we replaced. $800 would be if you could get bye with just the new bearing and housing. With my machine that was not a option.
Just in case anyone thinks they can pull "that" pin out using a lifting eye on top of it - guess what I spotted the other day in our local dealer shop..? Yup, a D5M having the centre blade pivot dismantled. These boys don't ***k about .............
I did one of these. No hydraulic puller, but a bit of M30 threaded bar into a puller made of 6" steam pipe with a 1" plate welded to the top. Dog bone out of the way and blade propped as high as possible. Tensioned the bar, heated the ball while someone thrashed upwards with a 7-pounder. Took some staring, but after the first half inch it was relatively easy. Mind you, I'm not volunteering to fly over to do yours.
The D5 wasn't mine - I don't do "Lawns & Gardens", never worked on anything smaller than a D8 in my life. You have to be able to walk under them to make them worth working on. I just happened to be passing through the shop on the way to look at this ............ from the 1st photo to the 2nd in 7 working days. Since the 2nd photo was taken the engine, cab, & hardnose are back on the machine, and the track frames, ripper, & lift cylinders were going back on today. By Monday 20th the engine should be running based on what I saw last night.
Say Nigel, just be sure they don't send me the bill on that 10
It's the second of seven tractors to go for overhaul and had 17k hours when we sent it, and still all original components. Additionally we've got 2 x 834H and 3 x 16M to go within the next 6 months........... in the 2nd photo although you can't see it the chassis already had all new wiring harnesses installed, plus all every hydraulic hose in the chassis had been replaced. Both final drives had been off and rebuilt with bearing & seal kits plus a Reman transmission installed. Our overhaul budget for this year is a number with seven zeros on it.
how does a typical full rebuild compare with the same machine new, pricewise? I'd guess 75 to 85%....
This tractor had 17k hours on it at frist rebuild. We're not going for a full Cat Certified Rebuild (complete with new machine warranty which for us is 1 year unlimited hours and 2 years on Power Train components) on these machines. The cost of a CCR averages 50-60% of new machine price and the machine actually gets a new Serial Number afterwards. These rebuilds will probably go aropund 35-45% of the price of a new machine. I'll have to look up the figures.
Nige, Is this your shop or the CAT dealer shop doing this work on the 10 ? Impressive none the less.
that's damned reasonable against the cost of a new one... And you have proven design.
The 10's in the dealer shop, bigger stuff like trucks and 994's will be done in our shop. Actually getting the stuff into the dealer shop pays unexpected dividends despite the additional cost of a lowboy because their guys don't have the travelling time to & from site to worry about (but which we have to pay for) plus our operations have to stop during thunderstorms of which there are many this time of year. At their shop it's their rules and rain is not allowed to stop play. I would reckon that if 2 rebuilds got the tractor to 50k hours then we'd probably pension it off at that point. The frame was perfect, not a single crack appeared after cleaning and sanbdblasting which quite surprised me.
Nige, Out of interest what sort of man/hours does that kind of rebuild take?......or at least how many weeks will it be out of action?
Scheduled for 20 working days. Not sure about the number of man-hours.
Very impressive to the say the least!
Crunched the numbers on the overhaul and it works out at 42% of the cost of a new machine. Plus we get a 6-month warranty on the complete rebuild and a 1-year warranty on the major components. That will work out to about 2500 & 5000 hours warranty respectively. Here's a couple of shots of the tractor taken today - Day 16 of the work. It's on test today/tomorrow and scheduled for final paint & stickering Monday if the tests all go well. So it could finally come in a couple of days ahead of schedule.
That's money well-spent, for certain.
Those are serious grousers on that tractor. You wouldn't wanna get in the way of it... Interesting info and pics there Nige. Thanks for putting them up.
Will it be fitted with new blade and C frame as well ? That is pretty amazing for 20 work days ! Ron
The blade, push arms, & stabilizer bar stayed at the mine. All were rebuilt where necessary, new wear plates, pin bores built up & rebored, new pins, etc. The blade tilt cylinders go loose with the tractor and are included in the dealer overhaul. When the tractor comes back, as well as shipping the tilt cylinders with it a new set of hydraulic hoses comes for the front end.
Back on site, fire suppression system installed plus a few other tidying up bits & pieces. Just the blade to go on it now.
Nige, That machine looks absolutely new. Thanks for sharing the photo's. It will be a shame to get it dirty ! G'Day Ron
As stated previously - this machine has 17,000 operating hours. It just went through a Cat Certified Power Train Rebuild - you can see the stickers just below the Cat logo on the fuel tank. Hopefully it'll be good for the same again.
I have heard the 6 and 5 M series have finicky finger tip steering, are there any other problems with these M series? I was thinking of buying an M. Are the D5N's any better? Thanks
Nige, I am fixing to undertake this endeavor. Could you send me the Service Manual procedure to remove said pin. Thank you Sir! My email addy is [email protected] Scott
I thought I'd reply to this thread rather than starting a new one. Not sure what the etiquette is here so apologies if I do this wrong. Our blade pivot bearing had broken out (seems to be a common problem) on our D5M. Ordered some parts from Off Road Equipment and some from Cat. The blade pin was NOT moving in any way shape or fashion so we had to cut that out in several pieces. None of the pieces came out easy. Right now the blade is on the ground and all of the cylinders are rebuilt with new end bearings. Now we have to cut out the blade pivot bearing mount and replace with the updated part. It's raining now so my partner has his work cut out for him. Ordered the procedure for this that Nige mentioned but Cat takes 10 to 14 days to get that in. :-(
I would like the service procedure on this if avail please
A question for you. See the photo in Post #19 on Page 1. Can you get hold of a 50-ton capacity hollow hydraulic cylinder.? Because that’s what the procedure call for (plus a few other bits & pieces). Even then the pin is not guaranteed to move.
Would love one!
I'm dealing with this right now and this site is all google is bringing up, no parts to be had from a web search. Like Mike H above me, I'd love the manual pages, and more importantly, to know if there is an aftermarket solution to replace the faulty cat parts. Thanks Kelly
Post a machine Serial Number please. It makes it easier looking up the information and may also give a clue whether your machine has the original or updated parts installed in the blade pivot. The next thing you need to answer is the quesiton above. Apart from the 50-ton hollow cylinder it will also require a high-tensile puller stud to go with it. All-thread is highly unlikely to work in this application unless your objective is to put the tololing into orbit.
6AS00463 D5m. It is the snap ring style, not the later bolt ring style. Assuming I’m cutting the pin out. I found your cat document by using Google to search this site with my terms after making this post. I’ve found either the replacement stock bearing aftermarket, or the new from cat housing and ring (PN’s from the doc you linked) and an aftermarket bearing from heavyquip or the web. Thank you for your reply and other replies that you have made, using the site search function wasn’t bringing up the information that I wanted but Google I think has it figured out for me!
A 50-ton cylinder plus the appropriate high-tensile puller stud and a bit of heat should get the pin out. When it finally comes there will be a bang. It would be a shame to destroy it if it isn't damaged right now. If it is then by all means cut it out. Attached a few bits of information that may prove useful.
Went through this last winter on my 6N. Only thing I will add is when pulling the first pin, figure out how to support that top ear the cylinder is going to set on. The pin came out, but I did not like the stress on that cast. Might have to get creative, but if I ever pull it apart again, I will be figuring it out.
I forgot the R&I procedure for the blade. The wedges listed as part of the tooling for removing the blade are important if a cylinder is used to pull the pin.
That isn't even where I was concerned about, here is what I was referring to. I was not at all likable to how much stress that top ear seemed to have to endure.
That's what I understood you were talking about. I'd throw a couple of hardwood baulks in there to prevent any chance of the ears over-stressing when the weight comes on the cylinder.
For future reference, in 2024 that stupid all-thread pulling stud and nut cost over $300. I about asked if they gave 5 gallon pails of Vaseline free with purchase.