HI I lost oil pressure on my d6c cat and now it won't start. Any suggestions?
hey Steve, a bit more info would help. S/N for starters Mark
Lost oil pressure HI Mark, I lost oil pressure on my d6c cat 1974 year serial number 10k11.First noticed a small oil leak up front down by the flywheel pulley,I checked the oil level and was still good so I continued on pushing a tree ridge down. Worked it for about 10 minutes, noticed the engine oil pressure dropped slowly, then the engine completely shut off. Next day I disconnected oil line to the pressure gauge, started the engine, no oil coming up to the gauge, engine stopped again, nowI am dead in the water. Your help is greatly appreciated. Thanks, Steve
Does it turn over? Does it smoke while turning over?
Lost oil pressure Yes, turns over great, but little smoke. I am going to try new fuel filters this morning, but why no oil pressure? ??Does this machine have a sensor that senses no lubrication and shuts down the machine ?I am lost...
Are you perhaps somehow mistaking fuel pressure for oil pressure? Just a thought.
Yes, the machine has provision to limit to idle speed if oil pressure is lost.
Lost oil pressure Thanks for your input on diagnosing my lost oil pressure. I pulled the belly pan off and the oil pan and found that the oil pump gear bolt sheared off and metal was all over the bottom of the oil pan. I will order one tomorrow morning. I just hope and pray that there is no damage to the engine. Time will tell! Thanks again Steve
Cat service representative said that when you loose oil pressure, the fuel pump automatically shuts down to protect the engine from further damage. That explains why the engine wouldn't keep running. Thanks again for all your help!
I would be pulling bearing caps personally
Steve, dream on about you CAT Service Rep comment, instead of ordering an oil pump I would start unbolting the engine, with no oil pressure they will run the crank out in around 5 mins, it's usually marked by a puff of black smoke as the effort to turn builds up. tctractors
I agree with tc. An oil pump alone isn't likely to fix that however much you would wish it to. Simply for peace of mind IMHO you should be pulling the main & rod bearing caps to inspect. It's very little extra work considering you already have the oil pan off.
I think that I will do that. Thanks for the suggestion. Should I replace bearing inserts as long as I have pan off? I am planning on spraying gasoline inside the crankcase.
TBH my first thought would be take a look at a couple of representative crank bearings, and based on what you see start to think straight away about yanking the engine out. Remember you can inspect the crank & bearings but what about the camshaft bearings..? You can't see those. What you're probably going to have to do to the engine at the end of the day will be much more succesfully accomplished with the engine out of the tractor where you can work on it somewhere clean & dry.
I took the oil filter off, bandsaw it in two, nothing obviously wrong. No metal filings or flakes that I could see, so hopefully no damage! !
possible for an oil pump pickup to fall off? manual oil pressure gauge?
Steve, I think you are missing the point some, the only way the oil filter gets bits into it is if the oil pump pumps the oil through the filter? if the oil pump has calved down it's not going to pump ow't, as a matter of interest did you cut the filter pleats out and pull them apart so they are flat, I have been working on CAT stuff around 46 years and will be really happy to think your crank is A1 , as it will be a first, you need to check the main bearings and the big ends, they can be changed in frame but I think you will be Un-Plugging the engine. tctractors
What do I need to see in the filter, microscopic flakes? I really respect your knowledge of cats, but if I am not seeing anything, what more can I do?It wasn't like I ran the machine for an hour or two. It lost oil pressure and within a minimum the engine shutdown. I am hoping no damage is done. What more should I look at without pulling the engine? I am very confident that the machine will start, not so confident on how it will sound!!!!
The flakes won't be very big or easy to see, although the fact that they are not obvious could potentially be regarded as a plus. If there was a significant quantity of really large flakes the engine would have been sounding like a bag of bolts long before you stopped it. However think of it this way. Any flakes that end up in the filter ended up there because the oil pump was pumping oil round the system. What was your oil pump doing while the engine was shutting itself down..? Not pumping oil that's for sure. Therefore even though the filter does not have flakes in it is not a 100% guaranteed indicator that all is well with the engine. If there is crank bearing damage then it is entirely possible that the debris from that damage never reached the filter because of the oil pump failure.
Y generally not good when they stop after losing oil pressure I had a farmer last year forgot to fill the motor with the oil after draining it he started it didn't get above wider I drop the caps and looked at the bearings and only one was questionable I was able to polish it I put it back together so far it's running fine for him you would have to find out why you lost oil pressure I'm not sure how the pump is driven with that engine pump set up
Do yourself a big money and time saving favor and pull the main and rod caps. Like the others said you wont see damage in the filter. It is on the bearings themselves. You will wipe out the crank along with whatever else spins with it.... Be on the lookout for a fresh 6c from minnesota for sale.
Thanks for the advice. I will pull off the mains caps and the rod caps. Can you see the metal filings, or do you need a magnifing glass?When I took off the pan cover, the pump gear was off and mounting brackets were broken off where it connects to the block. There was a short piece of chain laying in the pan also, I don't know where that came from. The pieces of metal I found in the pan came from the suction can screen. One half of the round can,was shredded, the other half was still intact. I am pretty confident I retrieved all of what was left of the oil screen. I love that old machine,but don't want to do more damage. I found a used oil pump down in Texas with the suction canis terrible for $700.I really appreciate everyone's comment, they really help!
Just had another thought, how can metal filings get beyond the oil filter? ?isn't that the purpose of an oil filter, to protect the engine?
Steve, as I posted above, if the oil pump was not working because of the damage you found in the pump & mounting, there is no way that any particles would even reach the filter let alone get past it. As soon as the pump broke, gear fell off, or whatever the oil flow from the pump stopped and so any particles generated would not even go past the pump. For that reason the lack of visible particles in the filter is no guarantee that damage hasn't been done. Post some photos of what you found in the oil pan.
Yes, that makes perfect sense. Problem is, I don't know what caused the bolt to break! !The mounting bracket was broken off also. I will have to look deeper into the situation. .
sounds like it needs some pictures!! HEF loves carnage.
Explain the freakin chain. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Can't explain that one. Don't know much about the machine
:witpic
The Chain could be off the oil filler cap, A second hand oil pump for $700 is getting your Pants Pulled Down, a new 1 would cost less, anyhow you need the engine rebuilding. tctractors.
Wasn't aware D6c's have a low pressure shut-down.....unless there is an oil pressure sensor in the fuel pump I don't now how it would work. When I got my D6c it had low oil pressure (not zero).....pulled the pan, oil pump, & checked the crank bearings. Ended up having two problems. The long rear pickup tube has a strap and bolt supporting the rear end....the last guy to work on it put in too long of a bolt which allowed the tube to wiggle. That eventually caused half of the gasket on the pump end of the tube to fall out letting it suck air. The other problem was a weak oil pump bypass valve....it has belville washers for tension. The crank wasn't too bad so I rolled in new bearings (Cat sells a little tool you insert into the crank oil passage to roll the bearings in). Didn't think I had much to loose by trying it It pegs the oil gauge now and probably has 700 hrs since the repair. Good luck
Thanks, I pulled a couple of main bearings and a couple of crank bearings this morning. The main bearings are a little sloppy, the crank bearings look good and I didn't see any flakes of aluminium, but there are flakes up in the crankcase scattered throughout the engine. Is it possible to flush the engine block with gasoline and blow it out clean, put new bearings in and close it up? The only areas that I have not seen is the heads .Don't want to know!
Question, If my oil pump was not pumping oil, gear bolt broke, bracket broke, gears not meshing together, how can there be metal in the oil filter? ?The very first thing that I noticed was an oil leak somewhere up front by the fan. Shortly after the oil pressure gauge dropped ,then within 15 seconds, complete engine shutdown. Any thoughts? ?
Yair . . . Steve.ahlgren85 Its a high stakes game you're playing here. There are folks following this thread who's advise should be heeded, they can save you lots of money. If you have ally flakes they came from somewhere By who's criteria? Without soft lead/plastigauge readings and some photo's such a statement (in my opinion) is meaningless. Have you checked the end float? It sounds like you may have been lucky and I would not push that good fortune too far. Cheers
It sounds more like you have had a front timing gear failure due to the chain you found in the pan. If that chain went through the gears and knocked the oil pump off it probably also damaged the fuel pump drive gears and the fuel pump quit turning or went out of time and caused the engine to stop. You could look up at the gears from below and see if there are teeth damaged. How big is the chain? There are no chains inside this engine on a normal day.
I like TCtractors idea about the oil cap chain.. Plastigage is REAL CHEAP and REAL QUICK.. use it.. Depending on your money supply, fix the oil pump, roll some new brgs in it, inspect the gears for chipped teeth, blow the passages out and button it up.. What do you have to loose.. it doesn't run NOW.. D6c10K has a point tho.. did the engine come to a SCREACHING HALT.. or did it slowly die off like it ran out of fuel?? IF and that's a BIG IF, it has/had a low oil shut down mechanism on it, you may have dodged a bullet.. Do you even know if it will roll over by hand?? Put the main caps back on and see if it will make a revolution.. IF NOT.. you know what you have to do.. All this talk and questions about flakes in the filter is drivin me to drink..lol. no oil pump=no OIL FLOW.. which = no debris in the filter.. get it now?? You found the problem.. fix it.. just sayin'
The engine slowly died, like running out of fuel. It turns over great. The oil filter, upon further, deeper inspection did have metal filings, flakes, deep down in the pleats. The chain that was laying on the bottom of the pan, I am pretty sure came from the fillerror cap. at least that is what it looks like. It is not a timing chain. I have the old girl sitting on a field road, no way to transport it. I will stick with plan A.
The oil cap chain is broken on my D6 too.....still has a short piece hanging inside the filler tube. Doesn't seem very likely a piece could get up into the crank gears but anything is possible. The oil cap chain is a flat sheet metal link chain if that's what you found.
That is exactly what it looks like. It didn't get into the crank bearings. It was just laying there !!
More on the oil pressure sensing. Only the early 10Kxxxx's with the D333C engine have the rack limiting block feature. It blocks the rack from opening beyond idle speed until oil pressure is reached. It is not a shut down feature. Stoppage at or below idle speed would have to come from fuel shut off or excessive drag (stall) on the engine.
Zeigler caterpillar service manager said that the machines fuel pressure and oil pressure are related! !!Mine is a d6c 10k 11 serial number. All I know is what he said and that was that oil pressure loss affects the fuel shutdown, and I am glad that my machine has that feature Thanks for all the posts, they have been very informative! !
Steve, someone has told you a load of crap, there is NO and again NO shut down feature on the 333C or 3306 engine unless it has a Non OE fitment. these engine protection units that could be bought and fitted need activating on every start up, I have only seen them on D8's and 9's, if the engine speed is on higher than 1/2 speed the Rack pegging control will not work until the speed is reduced to low idle, then the engine will only idle but not shut down with NO oil pressure, hate to say it Steve but you are well outside your comfort zone with your sump pan full of metal issue, you need to firstly look at your front engine oil leak? as that sounds Not Good, then start removing the engine and avoid listening to crap off your Service pal that seems to be not gripped up with old D6's, or better still stop listening to me and waste your $$$$. tctractors p.s do you read these post's ??
Well,if the engine bearings are replaced mains and connecting rods and crankshaft doesn't have noticable damage, what have I got to lose? Rebuilt engine might be less expensive than majoring mine.
Steve, I would heed the warnings of the very intelligent and straight shooting folk here on this forum. Something caused the engine to shut down and it was not a low oil pressure safety mechanism, new bearings are not going to solve your problem especially if the bearings in it now don't look bad they most certainly did not cause the engine to stall. A little more digging into the issue definitely can't hurt... Just my humble opinion... you know what they say, they are just like A%$ holes, everyone has one! Either way I wish you luck with whatever direction you choose to take
Mr steve, I run a reputable earthmoving company, own and still run a late 10k. The clowns at the local yellow store say they can fix anything yellow. Problem, everybody is 22yrs old fresh out of lawnmower school. It wont turn out good from my past experiences there with non current iron. Chain the blade up, push er on a trailer and bring it to a independent real heavy equipment mechanic who makes his living on his reputation.
One more vote on finding someone who actually knows these engines. Personally if the guy does not have grey hair I would be looking somewhere else! These are simple and tough engines but running even for a short time with no oil will cause all kinds of damage. A quick washing off of an assembled engine will only delay the major failure a few minutes. Without pictures of the actual damage and broken parts it is hard to make any good educated suggestions. If there is now way to work on it where it sits, I see it's is in Minn. so not the best time of year for working in the field, it may be possible to do some very temporary repairs to get it to run just long enough to raise blade and walk onto a trailer. But that would take someone who knew what they were doing and still would be risky. If it was mine I would not feel comfortable with anything less than a complete disassembly so every bearing and part could be cleaned and inspected. Also if you do go that route don't try to save money by flushing out the oil cooler!
I very much appreciate all of the advice that I have received. All of your posts I have read them all.Almost all of you have said to pull the engine, and have a COMPETENT mechanic overhaul it. At the end of the day, that is what I will do. I still don't know why the engine shutdown right after loss of oil pressure and engine is not locked up. It acted like it was starving for fuel. No one has been able to answer that question.I started it the next day to check out to see if oil was coming up to the disconnected gauge, which it was not, then engine died again. I am scratching my head! !!
Steve, your problem (if I can refer to is as that) is that you appear to be "glass half full" kind of guy always wishing/hoping/expecting the best. Those of us that have been around big yellow iron for 40+ years like Ken, TC & myself are generally "glass half empty" kind of guys because we've learned over the course of all those years that where yellow iron is concerned whatever can go wrong will go wrong, usually in the worst possible place and in the worst possible way. Anything less than that is counted as a win. In the case of your engine there are so many "what ifs" involved regarding why the oil pump broke (and also the unexplained oil leak that suddenly appeared at the front of the engine) that IMHO the only way to get to the bottom of what happened and to fix it right the first time is to yank the engine and tear it down to the last nut & bolt. Only then can you be sure you dodged every bullet. As an example of the glass half empty view on equipment I remember on my last job having a stand-in boss for a few months (that was all he lasted) who was an eternal optimist. At one of our morning meetings I was being my usual grumpy self and eventually he exploded - "You really need to have more of a positive attitude" to which I responded "OK, I'm positive it's fcuked. Happy now..?"
....just thinking. If your oil pump gear bolt was broken, indicating something may have gone though the gears, then it's possible it's done some damage to the rest of the gears driving the cam, fuel pump, and water pump. If so, it may have messed up the fuel pump timing, and if something got up in pump gear it could have damaged the fuel pump shaft. That might explain it acting like it was running out of fuel. Who knows what if might have done to the cam shaft and cam timing. Looking more like your in for a more than a minor fix.
Never did see what you got for a crankshaft thrust clearance reading.
Good point there! And if someone says it would not have started the next morning if the pump timing was off, they have not tried to start a 3306 engine that had the pump timing set 180º out and seen it started right up. Okay it did not sound right but it did start and run. I'll blame that one on Norm as I don't think he's on this forum!
All I know is that it started right up the next morning, just didn't run more than 30 seconds. I checked the gear driving the oil pump, looks fine. There are, what looks like timing marks on the gears. Do the gears of oil pump have to do timed?I found a used pump and suction screen for $350.00 They are coming next week.
I did not find the bolt head. Nothing was laying on the bottom of the pan. You make a good point. I don't see how though, the bolt head would have to be thrust upwards, I guess stranger things have happened!
Steve, I thought you said the "Used Oil Pump" was around the $700 spot, a new 1 from CAT Classic Parts would cost less and would not be worn out so best of luck on this smart move, the pump by the way can just be bolted up in place with No index markings needed, you will need to check the gear lash though, how did you get on rolling in the bearings? no doubt you cracked open the cap bolts a half turn before changing each bearing set as an item, you also must have made sure you fitted the correct bearings in the top section of the block, that is the ones with the holes in, just as a matter of interest what torque setting did you use on the main and b/end bolts, this is just in case your Pal that talks crap told you the wrong setting detail. tctractors
I would be very concerned about not finding the head of the bolt, it has to be somewhere and probably not somewhere safe! Several years back one of the guys at the shop was changing the injectors in a Cummins 855 and dropper the nut off the injector rocker adjuster. He figured it went to the bottom of the pan and would just stay there with no problems. Well after the engine ran for a couple hours someone noticed an oil leak. Turns out when we looked at the engine there was a 6 inch round hole in the side of the block! Apparently the spinning of the crankshaft picked up the nut and it got caught between one of the rods and the side of the block. A good spare Michigan 275 was now out of commission! There are way too many places for that bolt head to cause major catastrophic damage! Unless you are willing to risk a major failure I would not even turn that motor over by anything more that a wrench by hand! Roll the dice if you feel lucky. Right now you might get lucky and only need some new bearings and gasket along with the labor to remove and clean everything.
Thanks tc 6"of snow here inow Mn.I am freezing my buns off .Will have to wait for warmer weather.Haven't ordered the bearings yet. Thanks for the tip on putting them in. I have done it before on tractors and I have service manual, should have all the specs. The oil pump that I found is used, maybe a mistake, but what are the chances lightning will strike again in the same place? ? Maybe in my case, pretty good chance. Thanks for the advice! .
I saw some scoring on the bottom of cylinder no.1.Is that something to be overly concerned about. Looks like it has been there for awhile. Doesn't look like new scoring. I will post pictures of the cylinder when it finally warms up!
Steve, your optimism is truly inspiring. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Thanks, I think!!
Lost oil pressure Pulled three more of the engine main bearings today and the results were not good. One of the mains had lots of wear, flattened out on the bottom, side pushed out.My question for experienced cat mechanics is ,what would be my best option? Would a long block be a less expensive way to go as compared to taking the engine to Zeigler caterpillar and have them major the engine? I found a lot of aluminium particles that came through the crank oil lubrication holes and into the bearings. Only one of the crank shats had rough spots, grooves. Don't know what my best options are. I respect all of your options !Thanks so much. .
Yair . . . . I think you mean "opinions" and there are four pages of them up here already. There was a certain inevitability to the outcome and I am sorry your optimism was misplaced. I'm sure folks on here will answer and continue to try and assist you. Just read and try to comprehend what they are saying and act on their advise. I hope it all goes well as can be expected and, once you get folks involved some pictures are always nice. Cheers.
The results of the crank bearings and the grooving of the crank itself tells me that I have a long road ahead. Will the engine slide out from the transmission, after talking mount bolts out? Thanks for your input. It is GREATLY appreciated. Steve
Steve, as mentioned before post some photos of what you're seeing - crank, bearings, oil pump, gears, anything that might be useful to help express an opinion. You're confusing the transmission and the torque converter. The transmission is mounted into the rear chassis case, the converter bolts to the engine flywheel housing. The engine and converter should be lifted out as a single unit and the converter removed once the whole assembly is on the ground. If you involve your local Cat dealer all you will end up doing is getting a great big bill. Porbably good-ish on modern stuff but useless on anything as old as your tractor IMHO, and I used to work for a dealer. You will note that they have been wrong big-style once already (about shutting down on low oil pressure to "protect" the engine) so why do you believe they'll be any better going forward...? Remember their labour is charged at somewhere the sunny side of $100/hour....
Yes ,I know all too well. I will post pictures as soon as I can figure out how. I feel confident in my ability to pull the engine and do most of the dissassembly ,butthat is as far as It goes.
Don't know your area, but I would be maybe looking around at some of the local quarries or gravel beds to see if they have suggestions on who other than CAT they would recommend as a place to get work done. I may be a bit biased but I would be looking for an outfit where most of the guys working there have grey hair or a lack of any! Nothing against youngsters but some only want to plug a computer in to have it tell them what to fix.
Posting pictures is easy. When you are writing a reply to a post hover your mouse over the second last icon on the menu above the text box. A popup will appear saying "insert image". Click on that popup, select the image file(s) you want to upload, press OK, and Bob's your father's brother ......... I second KSH's recommendations, there is a lot of yellow iron up in the iron range area. Isn't grandpa up in MN somewhere..? I'm sure he'd have some ideas, or if not could recommend you to someone who could help.
A little show and tell to go with Nige's instructions: As he said while at the point where you are typing the message click on the icon he mentioned like this: Then a box will open up like this one: If the text says something about add image from URL click on the words "From Computer" Now you should be able to locate the file for your picture assuming it is save to your computer or if you have your camera or phone connected to the computer. Once you have located the file click on the file name and it should now show in the box, the name NOT the actual picture. Then down at the bottom of the box click on words "Upload file(s)" This will take you back to the text box and you will see something like this[ATACH]161749[/ATACH] That tells the forum where to find the picture. Picture will only be visable after you "post" the message. Note: After you upload one picture you can add text then go through the same steps to post one or more additional pictures'
One more thing a good source of information on how to use this Forum can be found in the "Support" folder. When at the "HOME PAGE" for HEF click on the "FORUM" tab and scroll down to where you see SUPPORT!
Nice "how to".. you keep that up and Steve will give you a job..
Good morning, I will try to post some pictures.I am finding it difficult to find a long block for my cat. I am wondering if the most economical way to get my machine going again, is to overhaul it .I am finding it hard to find a long block for my serial number cat .Thanks again for your wealth of knowledge and expertise. Steve
You might be able to buy one of these and just use the short block. I've thought about purchasing one myself and keeping it for just such an emergency. Maybe someone with more knowledge can tell me if it's practical to strip a 3306 built for a different application down to the long block and build it back with the head, fuel system, manifolds, etc. from a dozer. Head might be a problem if one is pre-combustion chamber and the other direct injection.....or if one is a spacer plate block and the other isn't. I'd be interested in comments on a repower like that. http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/search?cmd=results&fromsearch=true&words=3306
Sounds like you have to pull it one way or another so might want to at least get it out of the machine and in a warm place to work on it. These are not bad engines to work on given a bit of common sense and basic mechanical knowledge. Biggest questions are how bad the crank is and is there any damage to the block or connecting rods and camshaft. If you decide to rebuild this one or install a different engine or short/long block I would not even think about reusing the oil cooler. They are cheap insurance when compared to the rest of the money it will cost.
Yair . . . Steve.ahlgren85 Unless there has been a catastrophic failure why would you consider a long block? It is a simple straight forward engine, I believe parts are still readily available and it should cost no more than three or four hundred dollars for the engine manual which is absolutely necessary and should be looked on as an investment . . . even if you employ a mechanic he will need that manual unless he is about sixty and genuinely conversant with the engine in which case he would probably have his own dog eared copy complete with hand written notations and oily fingerprints. Just my opinion and its probably worth what it cost. (grins) Cheers.
Steve, It might be worth a try to send a private message to "grandpa" he is or was last I knew located in norther Minn. He may be able to point you somewhere to either get parts local or someone who could help in someway. If you don't know about the "private message" I'll try to explain that the best I can. As it sounds it will be private and go direct to who ever you send it to so you don't have to cross your fingers the person stumbles on to you posting in the forum. First on the home page for HEF up neat the top click on "Private Messages" Then look in the box that says "MY MESSAGES" click on "NEW MESSAGE" This will open a box where you can enter the "USER NAME" of the person you want to contact. In this case that would be "grandpa" (without the ""'s) And also to help the person it is going to know what it's about I would fill out something in the "TITLE" box. Then put something in the text box giving a description of what you are working on and need help with at this point. After that click on the "SUBMIT MESSAGE" box in the lower right corner. I forgot to double check but below the text box there are I believe some options listed one might be to send a copy to yourself among other things. Just check and see one of the options is "Request a read receipt for this message" this should send to a note to you telling you the message was read by the person you sent it to.
I plan to pull out the engine first to see what I have to do. I have been out of commission with a knee replacement. I am hoping that I can find a good mechanic and just overhaul it. Why can't the engine oil cooler just be cleaned up and reused? Upon further inspection, I found a lot of aluminium particles behind the bearings that came through the oil holes in the crank! Does anyone have an idea how long it takes to pull out the engine?
Some pictures! 8
Some pictures,
Steve, the engine looks in better Nick than I expected, the crank will most probably be cracked so don't think this rough spot will Buff Out, to remove the engine from a D6C allow about 8 hours, the hydraulic tank and Dash Plate can be lifted out still attached to the engine if you like? although it has to be removed at some point, to rebuild an engine from a total bare block with loads of new parts and doing the head including valve guides takes me around 4 days, but I have done plenty of them and have the tooling to tackle them, you can get all the parts Non O.E. or CAT Classic. tctractors p.s. I thought it was a waste of time answering you stud lock pm as I know the engine would be stuffed, on your S/H oil pump thing, I would send it back and get you $$$ refunded as it will be NO USE to you on this gig.
If I rebuild the engine, won't I need the oil pump?
Why would you even consider installing a used oil pump of unknown quality in an engine that's just cost you major $ to rebuild..? On second thoughts don't answer that ............ Using a new oil pump is the same reason you install a new engine oil cooler on a rebuild - it's called insurance.
Makes sense, Dumb !!
Those pictures show just what I'm sure most of us had expected it would look like. Sure you can run some fuel oil through that cooler and flush it out, but what if you fail to get one or two flecks of that bearing material out? Spend a week or two in labor removing cleaning and reassembling an engine with a few thousand in new or good used parts and try saving a couple hundred by using an old cooler that may have a few chunks caught in it that will pop out as soon as it get warmed up good. If you feel that lucky take a roll of hundred dollar bills and spend the night at the nearest casino! Don't quote me on the exact dollars and hour to do the job, it is just an example of the risk you could be taking trying to save money. I was never a big fan of reusing an oil cooler core even if an engine never had a failure and was just being rebuilt due to low power or high hours. But one that has had a failure even minor compared to this one no way! And if you are going to rebuild this engine every plug and fitting needs to come out and a rife cleaning rod and brush run through all the oil galleys . Each and every part oil touches needs to be disassembled and cleaned and inspected.
Your wisdom is greatly appreciated, Thanks!
I've seen the salvage boys pull an engine in 5 minutes, but don't go that route Go easy with the knee replacement till its all shipshape and you get a thumbs up from the doc or pt folks, not a job you want to do over. Hopefully you can get some good help in your area.
I would like to have that engine rebuilt, but I am concerned that, whoever does it, will not be able to get all the metal flakes out. There are a lot of aluminium particles that are hard to see.Would a qualified mechanic be able to get all the metal out?Again, thank you for all of your advice. . Steve
Nige has sent me a pm addressing your issue. Sorry for not following your thread and jumping in to help. Personally I use Zielger in mpls to do my rebuilds. They have one particular fellow that is heads above the norm in expertise. Also their warranty is excellent and to me that means a lot. If you don't feel comfortable with the Ziegler main shop, and request a independent source for help, I would recommend Bruce Johnson out of Brainerd MN. Been in business along time and knows his business. http://advanceddieselservicebrainerd.com/ And again I apologize for not following your woes.. I hope this helps..... and you can thank Nige... Grandpa.
Thanks for the advice .I want to have it rebuilt and Zeigler caterpillar, I think would do a great job ,but nice to have a mechanic name that someone recommends.Would a long block work in my situation? Just don't know which is the best way to get the engine back to reliable condition! Thanks again. . Steve
I would get yours out,,, take it to Zieglers,,, if it salvageable use your own block... they'll know and do it everyday. When they are done it will be right, and done with genuine cat parts..
Steve, I would have no problem having a "qualified mechanic" rebuild that engine. The key word is "qualified". I would feel confident with either of the two suggestions by grandpa. Cleaning the block is not all that hard just needs someone who takes the time to remove all plugs and fittings and runs a wire brush through the galleys and some nice hot soapy water. Just don't stand there and keep saying "Is it done yet, is it done yet?" "Are you sure you need to remove that?" Also you need to be honest with yourself and the people doing the work how perfect a job you want done. Starting with what your expected use of the machine is going to be once it is running again. There is a big difference between a machine you will be running 24/7/365 like something Nige would be using in a large gold mine to something that might only see a couple hundred hours a year cleaning out brush and ponds on a small farm. Either extreme needs a machine rebuilt with proper care and craftsmanship but there are places one can save money by using aftermarket or Cat Classic parts.
Your advice is priceless. This forum has been incredibly helpful. All your posts, I have read them and I just appreciate people who have spent so much time working on these old engines. ..
Steve, if you were U.K. based I would soon sort the little banger including scrubbing all it's bits, there must be plenty of people in the U.S. near you that would sort this job. tctractors
I am sure there are. Thanks anyway!
Good morning, Thanks for your input. I got my cat home and in a the shop.Do you know a good mechanic who could do an overhaul of my machine? Also, would a long block be a better option for me given the crank damage ,valve grinding, major repairs that have to be done? I have no idea how much a major repair would be, but with your experience, I thought maybe you could give me a ballpark figure. Your response is greatly appreciated Steve
I would seriously consider calling the closest grade contractors to see who they use. Most around here have their own small duty mechanics but have a severe shop do all the bigger work some only using dealers. As I have posted here before there are fewer and fewer repair shops capable of this type of work or workers that can still do this type of work.
A plane ticket, rental car and an open ended reservation at the local motel, + 100.00 aday perdiem, along w/ an unlimited credit card for parts, a warm covered building fully stocked w/tools and Cat manuals, I think you'd get some help. OR do as Miller suggests..
An overhaul. That's an interesting question. First an overhaul probably would mean something different to everyone asked. If your going to do it right, its going to be in the neighborhood of $25 grand. And that's if you pull the motor. Bet that scared the **** out of you. To me, if im going to go thru the effort of pulling the motor, I sure as heck am not going to cheap side it if im keeping the machine. Without being running its basically a parts machine for now.
There were a couple of crate rebuilt 3306 truck engines that recently sold on Gov't Liquidation. Complete w/turbos and everything.....225 H.P. Sold for a little over $6000. That sounds like it would be a good price even if all you use is the long block.
Hey d6c 10k, Where do they have these sales? I would be very interested in knowing where and when the next one comes around. I am ready to pull the engine out tomorrow morning. After pressure washing it, I will be able to make a decision on what to do with it. I will not spend $25,000 on an engine, no matter how much I use it. My wife is barely talking to me anyhow! That would send her through the roof! !!
Guy, you have to do a evaluation of the condition of your machine and components. Undercarriage and related? Drivetrain and transmission/torque? Blade and related? If one of the following is not up to par... So now you pull the engine and find 2 other problems that cost more money (its a guarantee) As you pull those 2 apart more stuff appears. Next thing you know you have a big bucket of bolts, 6 full pallets of iron you stripped and its a 20k ordeal that was supposed to be under 10k. Now its worth nothing. Get out now unless you know exactly what you have.
Nope, everything else is in GREAT shape, nothing more bad is going to happen! !!I have faith in God! !
Well Steve, my wife has been work hardened. Lol. Had a D4H that the transmission went bad. She says to me "what do you think that repair will cost"? I said it will be 20k before were done. She got the bill in order and said "You were wrong"? It came to $19,993. So good luck with the wifey deal, they are all different,,, some from day to day..ha ha.
She is a great gal, she just, along with me, didn't expect this to happen. It will all be okay though
When I bought my Allis 'junker' for little to nothing wife was clearly upset I would buy such a machine, then the repairs started to add up, she just got madder. I worked to get the machine functional enough to dig our house foundation site and do some land clearing(farm expense use) and then had to buy a second unit for spare parts no longer available. She has not left me but has been close. I have more in the machine than is really worth but also save a couple grand in each use over contracting out even with repairs. I am getting to where it is almost as functional as potentially possible where once there I will sell it off for what I can get and look for something newer/cleaner knowing full well they're all old iron, prone to breakage and inevitably costly.
Government Liquidation.com Did a search for "3306" and came up with 3 engines. The one on the test stand looks to be nice....who knows about the other two as they look to be take-outs. http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/search?cmd=results&fromsearch=true&words=3306 The one on the test stand is a direct injection engine so you would probably need to use your head....unless yours is direct injection. There are NO guarantees what condition the engine is in...you are buying it "as is". Others on here may have a better idea if there are any issues with using the short block from a unit like this in a dozer. When buying from Gov't Lic be sure to READ CARFULLY all the buying requirements such as, buyer's premium, payment type, removal requirements, removal dates, facility access, etc. THEY MEAN WHAT THEY SAY....DON'T EXPECT TO GET AWAY WITH NOT FOLLOWING ALL THE REQUIREMENTS. You have to set up an account in order to bid. All that said, I have bought several items from Gov't Lic without a problem There are companies listed on the auction page that specialize in packing and shipping gov't auctions (click "shipping details" tab, then under " Shipping info" select the link "click for more info". You can get a quote from shippers before the auction by giving them the event ID and Lot #
Just off the top of my head I would say you would be in trouble if you tried to put a pre-chamber head on a direct injection short block. The pre-chamber pistons have a steel plug in the center of the piston as I recall. I think the fire coming out of the pre-chamber might burn a hole in the top of a direct injection piston. Guess if the price was right and you had time to spend someone could at least get some good parts off the Gov't engine to use rebuilding yours.
Hey, thanks a lot buddy, I will be sure to check it out. Sounds like it might be a good option. Where do the engines come from? Is there any way to find out? It is a little risky, but I am a risk taker.Again, Thanks a bunch! !!
NO hot spot inserts in the top of pistons fitted to 333C and 3306 PC engines, I would stick to what engine you have fitted into your tractor, the 3306 pc head is not the same as the 333C item, the crank will fit and so will the rods, rebuild you existing engine and don't waste time messing about. tctractors.
Thanks, I need all of the help I can get!
It's been way too many years since I worked on a D333 or 3306! Guess the ones I remembers were from the D343's in the 988 Loaders and 769 Haul trucks?? Maybe the 3400 Pre-chambered engines too?
They will be mostly from military surplus. The one on the test stand looks to be for a training application. kshansen has a good point about compatibility between direct injection/pre-combustion pistons....best way to tell would be to compare part nos. in the parts books. May well have different pistons since that engine is set up for 270 hp.....of course you would want to use your fuel system to get the hp down to where it should be. I had the head off my 3306 pre-comb engine but can't remember whether it had steel buttons or not.....don't remember any. Can't see any in the photos from my engine assy. manual, but they aren't the clearest pics.
If you still have the used oil you might consider lab analysis to see if there are bearing remain in the oil.
I would definitely defer to TCtractors on the lack of the "hot spot plugs" on the 333/3306 engines. Like I said it's been many years since I had the head off on of those. That said I would not be surprised if there were many other problems with trying to adapt from a direct injection D333 to a 3306. Agree again with TC that the best way forward is to pull the original engine and get to work rebuilding it! Who know the crank might even be salvageable if ground to take under size bearings.Just send it to a good shop for evaluation and get busy washing parts and don't forget to replace that cooler with new OEM, new aftermarket or a reman one! Same with the oil pump!
No need for analysis just go back to post #76 that will tell all that needs to be know! Pump failed, oil flow stopped, engine stopped, end of story!
Yep, just a matter of figuring out how many parts can be saved.
Yah, I agree. It could be a hornet's nest, trying to swap out parts from another machine. I have everything ready to pull out the engine just need a little more advice. Will the engine ,after disconnecting the differential, oil tubes,clamps holding the oil tubes,engine mounting bolts, pull straight up?Or ,does the engine come forward a little and then up? The engine condition after pressure washing it and having someone tear into it, will tell me if it is worth trying to get running again!Thanks for all your posts. They have been a big help! Steve
Some years ago I rebuilt a D8H engine and it ran for about 4 hours before making one Hell of a Din, with my Butt clench proving painful I worked out it was No6 cylinder playing up, so off with the back head only to find the Hot Spot was loose in the piston (CAT), then off with the side plate and out with the rod, fitted a new piston while relaxing Butt Cheeks and sent the tractor back to work with a total of about 8 hours down time, the Hot Spot nuts I noted on the next engine build I did had been welded? No hot spots on the 333C 3304/6 PC or DI engines. tctractors
Get a book if you are looking for help at this stage in the game. Pulling a 3000lb assy 10+ feet in the air can be... If big yellow is gonna overhaul it call and ask for technical assistance. Take some pictures we all want to see how it comes out!!!
Yair . . . Good one DoyleX , I believe I mentioned that up thread. I can never understand folks willing to risk spending big money on repairs and yet begrudging a few hundred dollars on the book to ensure they do it right. Cheers.
Finally, got the engine out!What a big job with a healing knee! View attachment 162252 View attachment 162253
ch]162255[/atta ch]ach]
Does anyone know how the torque converter comes off?My book doesn't say. Looks like it is on a spline shaft and just take off 10 to 12 nuts,then just slides off.
Remove the Scavenge oil pump first and drain oil from bottom of case, then remove outer case bolts and pull off case, it will come away with the torque etc. tctractors
Thanks for the tip. What is the purpose of the scavenge oil pump?
The scavenge oil pump returns the oil resulting from internal leakage in the converter from the converter case back to the transmission sump. The TC case is basically supposed to run dry (or almost dry).
Thanks Nige, Thanks Nige..
Remove it first or you may damage it, you have managed to get the engine out with lots of bits dangling off it, I tend to think you have found a new way of removing the engine. tctractors
I think I have too, nothing damaged though. Book doesn't tell you everything! .Needs to be pressure washef,but it is 5 degrees outside.!!
Remember the 20 other things your going to find that should be fixed as long as the engine is out? #1 Reseal the hydraulic tank including the seals on the valve controls! #2 As much oil is caked on the front of the engine I can only imagine what the radiator and cooler looks like. #3 All the heim joints, and yokes for the steering, blade and throttle since the dash is off and right there. Any wiring issues? #4 #5 #6 Isnt it fun!
Yes, it sure is. Thanks for pointing out all the problems. You made my day!
Question for some very talented, experienced knowledgeable, cat mechanics. If I pull out the engine crankshaft, having it inspected, find it is NOT salvageable, would I be better off putting a long block in and salvage the rest of the engine?
It comes down to the condition of your block. Possible problem areas include main bearing bores being round and in alignment, liner seat erosion, and erosion of the bore where the liner seals go. If the block was good, I personally would rebuild it with a new aftermarket crank.
One other thing to check real good is the large end of the rods. Main bearing bores and large ends of rods can be rebored if not too far out. Not sure if the oversize od mains are still an option.
Steve, you need to deal with 1 thing at a time, at the moment that is getting the engine stripped, before you go crazy on nuts and bolts you would be well advised to mark the front timing gears with a touch off a grinder,set cylinder 1 on TDC injecting, then do the task on the marking up. tctractors p.s your crank will probably be scrap.
Question on big diesel cranks, does anyone ever have them resurfaced with metal spray welding and then reground?
Yair . . . "Back in the day" I seem to remember it was successful on two stroke Detroit shafts but not so much on other stuff. I remember failures on Perkins and Cat . . . specifically Cat D6 engine the subject of this thread.
When a crankshaft has been damaged to the point where it is beyond being ground undersize, (usually through oil starvation), the damage is usually more than the visible loss of metal. Magnaflux testing or some other form of NDT will, probably eight times out of ten show radial cracks, usually around the big end journals. In a reputable machine shop, crack testing will be the first operation done on any crankshaft brought in. Any cracks will result in the part being written off, or at least Repair at the customer's own risk.
So, what is your recommendation? A new crankshaft is in the range of $3,000!!!!! I want to pull out the crank ,but don't know if I will mess up the timing with the camshaft for whomever does the rebuild. If crankshaft is junk,seems to me best option is a long block. I thought there is supposed to be timing marks on crankshaft gear meshing the camshaft?serial number of my machine is 10k10536
A lot of the older engines the marks are not very evident but are there, good mechanic will know what to look for as to where they are. If crank is crap I would look to the boneyards for a complete engine to do a serious full overhaul on and drop that in rather than buying a reman long block as would also allow to use or keep for use the spare good parts from this engine, I like seeing and knowing the condition of what I place in machines.
Are you taking about getting a rebuilt "long block"? Have you priced one? Have you checked on the "core acceptance policy"? As to the timing marks, do you have the front cover off this engine? If not why are you asking about timing marks? You can't remove the crank with the front cover still on! If you are going to disassemble this engine and have no idea of the basic things like timing marks on cranks and cams you need to put your tools down and get a service manual and start reading. Otherwise you are going to be getting way ahead of yourself and be asking so many questions no one here will bother answering any more. I really think you need to give a lot of thought into how much you need this D6C and how much you are willing and able to spend. If $3,000 dollars scares you for a crankshaft, I have no idea if that is correct or not, you are not going to be able to handle the total cost for this job. Especially if you, due to lack of skills, end up hiring a good mechanic to assist or finish the job. You can and are getting lots of free advice here, all of it excellent, but you are not going to get off that easy when you want someone to drive out to your shop and spend hours cleaning and inspecting parts.
Steve, a Non OE crank is a lot cheaper than $3'000, you would be well advised to listen to the stuff printed here as there is some really Good people trying to be helpful, you can exclude myself from the list as I just give things a poke, when you manage to get the front cover off your banger , you will find the injector pump gear lacking a timing mark ? the crank will be most probably cracked across the shiny bits running left to right, it might be cheaper at this point to consider looking for another D6 that runs as you seem to be well out of your comfort zone here. tctractors
Steve , I pm'd you some people to call , have you not called them yet?
Like Kshansen said in his 3rd paragraph.. When you start posting pictures of your progress, we'll start answering specific questions.. All this, what if this, and what if that and how come it did this.. and maybe this is bad or maybe this might be cracked.. come on dude..get into it.. We cant fix it over the internet.. Set the motor on TDC #1, mark the front timing gears and get ta rippin'.. and take pictures..
You all have told me what I don't want to hear ,but really need to hear!I have to be totally honest about what I can do with this engine. Right now I have to first remove the torque converter, clean it up, make an engine stand for it,then have someone who can tell me if the engine is repairable or to junk it out. Thank you all for being brutally honest with me.
As been stated MANY times on here....BUY A MANUAL!!!!!
Way off topic post. Got to wondering where Darwin was and I see it is not far from Lake Washington and Litchfield. Spent some time at an aunt and uncles camp on that lake a few years back, somewhere around 1961! Also had another aunt and uncle who lived in Litchfield. As you are what an hours drive from the Twin Cities and even closer to St. Cloud seems like there should be some shops that would work on this engine or at least come out and give you an educated opinion to the viability of repairing it. Have you tried contacting the people **** suggested? It could be that your time and money is better spent finding another working D6C and if it is of the same vintage use this one for parts.
A friend has a D6B LGP an couple hours north of him near Kettle River that he plans on selling. Last time I seen it a couple years ago it was in decent shape. He seldom used it so I would expect it hasn't changed much. If interested I will PM his phone number. I believe there is a bunch of shared parts between a B and C.
Good morning, Yes,I live 1 mile s. of lake Washington, 8miles from Litchfield, 55 miles w. of mpls.Great place to live. Zeigler caterpillar, is where I plan to take the engine. I think that they will stand behind there work. I don't want to get stuck with another fixer upper. Everything else on the machine works great, I know, I ran it for a while already. New engine, and it should be able to finish my tree ridge clearing.
Steve,as an owner,I understand your wishfull optimism here. With the probable exception of the block,your engine is history. You need to ask yourself a question.Do you want or need the D6?. If not,then get rid of it.The undercarriage condition will sway your decision one way or another. If you do need to keep it,you will need to take the overwhelming advice given here and rebuild your engine and torque convertor properly. You aren't good enough to do that. I have 14 cat dozers including 10 x D8's in the past and I am not good enough to do a proper engine overhaul. Get the silver back fitter with a reputation that he doesn't talk about. Get your hands on about 8 to 12k in dollors and put your own tools back in their box. I would want my fitter to strip the engine himself. This will tell a tale and help him get to the bottom of the failure. You can save money by acting as his labourer and doing the clean up to his standard. Keep your mouth closed most of the time other than to ask him if he takes sugar in his tea. Running heavy plant is similar to running women.You need a big wallet and prepare for some heart ache after you've ridden them hard.
Sounds like you have been trained good by some guy who's online name starts with TC! Had a guy who worked at the quarry a a couple years after he got fed up running his own shop that worked mainly on big over the road trucks(lorries.) He had a response hand for the trucker who was shocked at the cost of a repair bill, "Big trucks=Big Bucks" with a few added comments that might get me barred from this forum! And the same holds true for just about all equipment talked about on this forum. If owning a D6C was cheap and easy I'd have one parked out behind the garage to play with myself!
Ha ha.You're right Kshansen
Well said Nicky. I wish I had a boss who thought that way and my customers of the past did. I've had a few that thought like you do. It's a tough spot to be in as an equipment owner, especially a machine that isn't out making money. If we could only collect consulting fees for all this excellent advice! Any other industry and we'd get paid by the 1/4 hour or by the word! If I still lived in MN I'd come take care of it for him.... Junkyard
Steve mentioned taking this engine to the local Cat dealer, Ziegler. Anybody have any opinions on that course of action? I'm thinking you might get a better dozer for cheaper than the dealer rebuild.
I'm afraid having the Cat house do it will result it sticker shock. One reason is they never seem to account for all the piddly stuff they end up needing when they produce a quote. Our dealer is bad about that. Also, I wonder if they have many old hands at that particular location that know the older machines. There's only a couple I know of around here that know the old iron and if they don't like you.....you won't get much of anything done. I'd be looking for an independent that comes with good referrals if it was me. The days of the dealer knowing your model of machine in and out I'm afraid are gone. Too much turnover and other corporate crap IMO. Good independent guys are tough to find but worth their weight in gold when you find one. When I lived in MN if I didn't have time to do a Cat overhaul I would bring it to a guy here in OK. Sounds strange I know but he had 30+ years at Cat before he retired. Started out in the days of the 1693 etc. Its a tough call, we'd all do it a little different I'd imagine. Junkyard
I would also consider an estimate from a machine shop that specializes in engine rebuilding to see if they are competitive with CAT.
Good point, there's a shop here that does a lot of BIG stationary stuff and often will beat Cat handily. Being close to the Great Lakes I would think somebody in maritime work might be competitive and familiar with Cat's of all ages and sizes. Also, there's a place up on the iron range I get parts from on occasion they may have a source for a good used motor to drop in. Junkyard
Got a qoute from Zeigler caterpillar, worst case scenario, $25,000 for a rebuild! !!!!
See post #96
Nailed it! :notworthy Junkyard
A bit different from many years ago! I can remember one boss who used as a rough estimate on an engine rebuild of $1,000 per cylinder! But then that was probably 30+years ago!
It hasn't been that long, 15 or so years ago we used to say $1,000-$1,200 a hole as a rough estimate. Although I don't think that allowed for scrapped cranks etc. I have a 627B with two good motors....what's the interchange like from it to that D6? They're 3306 if memory serves.
Last big kitty I overahauled was some thirty years ago. 1693 truck engine. Head was cracked, two rods bent from trying to force it to turn over by owner. We spent a lot of his money fixing the mess, close to $20K back then with a full out of frame to repair right. The 1693 reminds me of old tired iron that we fought to work on and not avoid, miss those engines
I talked to a couple of local mechanics, said that engine is more than likely junk.They indicated that I would be money ahead finding a replacement engine for my machine. Everything else on the machine works great, so I am in the market for a used 3306 engine to replace mine. Anyone out there have any leads on a3306pc engine? Something powering a generator might work. Responses are greatly appreciated!
I have a 627B with two good motors. I'll get S/N's when I can. Maybe one of the Cat gurus on here can tell us if they'd work....? Wouldn't hurt to open it up and freshen it as a precaution. I'll post S/N's when I get back to the shop. It's the prevernial "ran when parked" lol. It's been a year or so. If it warms up a bit I'll bust them off. Junkyard
I hope that was a typo and you meant you would DUST them off! With complete S/N's from the D6C and the 627B engines I could see if I can determine if there are any similarities or major differences. Depending on how much work one wants to do it might be possible. Say if both were Pre-chamber engines and similar cooling system arrangement most you might need to change could be flywheel housings and oil pan.
Bust as in fire them up. Lol. Junkyard
Watch the stationary engine interchange, they don's have the three section oil pumps that dozers have.
I saw an ad for CTP (Costex Tractor Parts) in my engine builder mag, they now offer a variety 3306 NEW aftermarket long blocks, that could be an option.
Here's the numbers off the 627. S/N 15S1280 A/N 2G5910 Front engine S/N 03N85566 A/N 7N1546--cannot find plate on motor to verify S/N Rear motor S/N 3N65627 A/N 4N7376-I know this motor was swapped from another 627 we had. 240 HP @ 2,200 rpm. See what y'all can figure out. Junkyard
I don't know if your still looking for a engine, but I have had a engine from Yellow Engine Service, from texas. They are always advertising in Rock and Dirt. They show a reman/rebuilt 3306c for $10,500. I had a 3208t in a crane that came from them, and it lasted about as well as any other 3208t had in that rig. Just thought I'd throw it out as a option. Another option may be for a used 3306 from a truck application. You may need your bellhousing and fuel pump/ and oil pickup/pan and a few other accesories, but it would be a lot cheaper route. You could find a running takeout under $5,000 I would think.
Thanks for the advice, I will check on the availability of the engine in Texas.I also have been thinking about a used take out truck engine. Do the serial numbers have to match, arrangement numbers also? I found a rebuild 3306 ,ready to drop in to my machine for 10,900.A little pricey but all ready to go, just don't know if I can trust ebay! Can I get pictures of the engine in Texas? Thanks again!
My other option is to do the rebuild myself. I have done tractor engines before. This is a little intimidating though. My biggest hurdle would be the crankshaft.Also, getting all the metal flakes out of the engine crankcase, getting oil ports all cleaned fully. Don't need the machine until spring, so I have some time to decide. Is this something that experienced mechanics could help me with,or should I not attempt to do this? I am confident that I can do it but would welcome some advice. Thanks, Steve
you have to add up what it will cost you to rebuild vs a ready to go engine block from a reputable person...im sure you can bring that block to a machine shop and have it boiled to clean it and have whatever machine work needed done to it...at least if you rebuild it, you know what is going in new to the engine and not just taking someones word for it..
Are you saying that it would be better to do it myself?
if you do it yourself, you will check many times if something is right before you move on, and are in control of what work will be done( really done, not just billed for and it wasnt done)..you said you already did some tractor engines, this is just super sized, and nothing many havent done before..just saying if you can save a big bundle of $$$$$ doing it yourself then go for it, if the price is real close vs buying an already done engine with w warranty, then its your call, but you still dont know what shape the engine you just got is?? so there lies the question...rebuild or buy....
I wouldn't/ shouldn't rebuild a engine myself. I could probably do it with a book, and enough time. But I really don't know what I'm doing, compared to a guy that does it all the time. I can however swap motors pretty easily. Ive got a shop, forklift, cranes, gantry etc., I feel comfortable swapping engines, I wouldn't feel comfortable rebuilding a engine myself, in something I needed to run everyday. Someday, when I have more time than I know what to do with, I should do one for fun/learning experience. It's going to come down to a cost vs benefit calculation that only you can answer. Are you a multimillion dollar outfit, with this rig being down, holding up a huge project? Is it your only dozer and you can't feed your family until its back up and running? Are you renting something else until its back running? Is it just a farm dozer with occasional use? I have two cranes exactly like each other. When I was battling my 3208's I would just shut one down, buy a used truck motor, and swap. It seemed like I'd get about 3-4 years out of the next motor, and they were only about $3,000(used). I had a brand new reman, I bought once, thinking I was done with used motors, and it lasted about a year longer. Reman motor was $8,000 and I needed it, and I couldn't find a used one. But I didn't get much more out of it than a used motor. If I could buy a crate/reman for 10,000, and the cat man wants 25,000 for one, I'm buying a crate/reman. If I could buy a used truck motor for $3,000, and swap some parts from your dozer (bellhousing, alternator, pumps, motor mount brackets, acc. drive pulley/belt setup, etc.) that's what I'd do. I could justify a 25,000 motor, if its a $100,000 dozer holding up a $1.2million dollar project. No way would I put a $25,000 motor in a $30,000 dozer, that you run for 200 hours a year. If its a $30,000 dozer that you make your living from, and use it 1,500 hours or more a year, and you plan to keep using it for the next 5-6 years, I could see the crate motor at $10,000, but I still don't think I'd spend $25,000 for the cat man to do it. I look at it this way- the cat man is using all cat parts, the crate man is aftermarket parts. Both probably come with a one or two year warranty (maybe not even that much). If you have problems with either one, they will probably fix the motor, but they aren't going to pull it, or install it, or pay for your down time. I'd figure the difference in price will pay for the in and out and all extra costs, instead of that being on top of the cat reman bill. The two cranes I mentioned earlier, I went through a similar situation last year. The 3208 isn't a terribly stout motor to begin with, and it was impossible to work on in the crane engine compartment. I switched both cranes to 8.3 cummins, used motors. I probably spent somewhere between $8-10,000 per crane (total including :used motor, new clutches, different bell housings, labor, etc.). They are $30,000 cranes, but I use them every week. I couldn't justify newer $100-150,000 cranes, I'm happy with the crane itself, and am really thrilled with the repower. I wouldn't have spent $30,000 on either crane, but if they were $150,000 cranes, and I had to have it to run, I would probably spend it. None of us can tell you what your financial picture calls for, and I'm not saying the cat reman would be a bad thing. I just don't think its the only choice, depending on your usage. Sure the cat reman might be the best reman, but you need to justify the $ spent.
Thanks for your input. I am a crop farmer and would not be putting more than 200 hours per year,but don't want to have to pull an engine again. I want the job done right the first time. It is a great machine, just needs a new engine! Take out engine might be my best option, just have to find a good one. Does anyone know if the serial numbers have to match?
You will need some components such as the multiple pickup oil pump, and some other parts from a dozer specific machine. I have seen the different items listed but am not knowledgeable enough to point them all out. There are folks on this forum that do though.
This might be a dumb question but I will ask anyway. Doesn't the engine oil pump, located in the oil pan, supply all the lubrication of the engine components and if not, can I use the pumps off my machine now, that is if I swap parts from one machine to another? Thanks so much for your input!
Without knowing anything about what I'm calling the "donor engine" it will be hard to say what will need to be changed. One thing I can think of and I believe it was mentioned before either here or on some other thread, is the differences between a prechamber engine and a direct injection engine.
If what you are asking is can you pull a hydraulic pump off the dead machine and use it on another machine the answer would be a conditional yes. Conditional because without knowing say the serial numbers of both machines it would be a wild guess if they will interchange. Despite what some people think just because it is painted Cat yellow and has a D6 decal on the hood there is no guarantee they are the same design. Had to work with a boss who at one time thought that just because a truck had a Bulldog on the hood all the parts were the same!
Yes, I know that I will need an engine with a precombustion chambers and understand that completely. When someone says you need multiple oil pumps on the exchange, they mean hydraulic pumps, correct? I am doing a complete power wash today, starting to dismantle the engine. I will post pictures of the crankshaft and bearings. Thanks Steve. .
Yes, You will need a oil pump setup for a crawler so it will pick up oil when not reasonably level. I don't think I would risk a pump off a damaged engine on a good doner engine.
I am planning on purchasing a new engine oil pump. The pump off the damaged engine, I will not use again. The responses that I have received on this forum about purchasing a used pump pretty much changed my mind on that idea.
I think what they mean is the engine oil pump is different on a dozer than a truck or stationary engine. On a D6c there are two oil pickup tubes in the pan so that when you are on steep slopes the engine doesn't starve for oil. If I remember right the pump itself has two sets of pump gears, one for each pickup tube.
Thanks for clarification!
I finally found a replacement engine for my cat d6c. It is a 3306 pc out of a new Holland forage harvester. It is rated at 270 hp. My question is, can I use the fuel pump that comes with the machine, or do I have swap out the fuel pump from my original machine?Zeigler caterpillar in mpls. said that fuel pump would have to be thoroughly cleaned of metal contamination before switching pumps. Just like to know if it is possible to use pump coming with the donor engine? Thanks. . Steve
As you've learned by now, you cant do a dam thing w/ cat w/o your engine serial & arrangement #'s.. same w/ injection pumps. Same engine can have different rpms, fuel delivery and torque settings.. & even if you have all that information, you have to find someone willing to look and compare the information.. good luck.
Check arrangement numbers for both engines as to timing(cam), injector flows, injection pump timing etc. Then look to pistons and hard parts for variables. New engine may be decompressed for higher fuel delivery and not care for low fuel supply for lower HP or different timing angle.
If I use my original pump on the "donor "engine, will that work?
:beatsme :Banghead
Steve, thank you for starting this Thread as it's proved to be a "Classic" on 2 points, 1 is not understanding anything, the other point is not taking a blind bit of notice of anything said, please prove me wrong and get this tractor back working again, have you removed your engine and stripped it out yet? the last thing you need is another engine to mess about with. tctractors
TC is spot on Steve, slow down and read what these guys are saying, the amount of advice they have given in this thread is PRICELESS and you're not paying attention to it....I hope you get her going again but start absorbing the advice you've been given or you'll just be throwing money down the toilet...
Engine is stripped, everyone I have talked to said pretty much the same thing, either get a rebuild engine or find a used replacement.I only will be using the machine for some land clearing and landscaping. Zeigler caterpillar said crankshaft on the ends is wore down past the plating, bearings have spun, everything has to be bored oversize, just would not be cost effective. Rebuild or find a donor engine. Thanks for the response Steve ]]]]
My theory is that there was so much play in the crankshaft front main bearing which developed the oil leak up front by the front seal causing vibration from the oil pump gear, causing the oil pump bolt casting to break, resulting in engine failure.
I'm thinking the failure of the pump was the result of the failure of the engine due to lack of oil from running with a leaking seal or some other reason. By the time the main bearings got to the point the pump gear bolt broke the engine was already scrap and the pump was trying it's best to keep it alive. I'm just amazed this engine was able to fight for it's life to this extent!
Have to agree with Hansen, I have been a wrench for all too long and have seen engines taken to the limit of life, is not the oil system that fails but hard engine failure that destroys the rest. Oil pumps just flow as much as they can, cannot make up for excessive clearances. Bearings fail from lack of lube not lack of flow, too much clearance allows oil to flow away too fast and not thru bearings. Mains get oil first, then rods, and a dribble sent to the camshaft bearings/bypass filtration, lose lube pressure the cam goes first then the rods then the mains unless the mains starve out from excess clearance.
Good theory but the oil level never got below the add mark .
Level does not mean pressure nor does it mean clearances are not too wide. An oil pump will attempt to make up for clearances by the closing of the bypass valve, these are set to a maximum pressure at factory to keep from flood damage to bearings. You can float engine bearings out with too much pressure. A main bearing wears every time you start an engine, there is some lubrication from residual film but until the oil pump makes suction and delivers pressure to the engine those bearings are running for the most part dry. They shave a little material each time with cold weather starts the hardest to get oil moving, hot weather starts the most severe where oil is thinnest lube quality. Dirt/carbon/wear metals within the oil just adds fuel to that fire and dilution with excess diesel thins it out ever quicker. As wear increases the amount of drain back from those same bearings increases causing ever harsher wear, these are not splash lubricated.
Its to bad engine manufactors did not keep putting compression releases on engines. The old Cats with pony start were to have the compression released until the engines built oil pressure. Thats probably the number one reason along with low RPMs that they were still running 60 years and more later. My 335 Cummins in my 1971 KW classic has a compression release cable in the cab. My instructions from the previous owner was to always pull the compression release and hold it until the oil pressure came up. Only takes a few seconds and it is spinning fast and starts instantly when I push it in for compression. I'm sure it will never happen but all engines should have a compression release in my humble opinion. It would help blow any water out also when folks have a bad day with water intrusion.
Not sure when they changed but the older Cat pumps had there own self contained oil system. Does it have the 1 inch or so plug at a bit of an angle at the the injection pump? If so it probably has its own oil resiovor. Problem with Cat, as with other makes, the mechanics that know these old machines are retired and the younger guys are appling new thoughts to old engines.
Yair . . . Well said in your #199 post old-iron-habit I completely agree . . . . on a similar note I absolutely hate the concept of the fuel being shut on and off with the start key. I like to be at least able to bump an engine over and then spin it before introducing fuel. Cheers.
I can' I will look for the plug at the bottom of the fuel pump tomorrow morning. The only way that I can see that oil would be circulating through the fuel pump, is if it is coming through the gear opening. The engine is completely contaminated with metal from the oil pump.[ATTA ]CH]163653[/ATTA ACH]CH]
Buddy, you are so over your head... Fuel pump swap. Do you know how to time it? Ever think about how much fuel it takes to make 270hp? What about 140hp? Now what size will the nozzles need to be? Tisk Tisk Tisk still listening to the lawnmower mechanics at the yellow store. The engine from the forage harvester, what is the arrangement #? All kinds of things will need to be swapped. They may look the same until you try to put pieces together. Prove us all wrong and get this machine running for a duration of 100hrs and redeem yourself.
Now you have me second guessing myself!!!
Should be pretty simple to time it using the manual. Fuel pump from my original machine bolted in place,hook fuel lines up, should reduce hp with my fuel pump.
WOW what a mess.
Do you have any number for the "new" engine other than some claim of 270 horse? Do you have any idea of all the different options Cat had for that same basic engine? Does this "new" engine have the same style flywheel housing? Is it a pre-chamber engine or direct injection engine? What about the oil cooler and water system, is the water pump the same? Don't forget your turbo has all the crap from the failed bearings in it. And those are just the questions I can come up with on my first cup of coffee!:beatsme
I dunno why, but this seemed appropriate ....
Has there been any discussion of the meaning of arrangement numbers? I must have missed it :beatsme
Uh, DMiller isn't giving you a theory , that is factual information Steve.
That's why I was asking the first question in post #208. Some people have a hard time understanding that just because it is painted Cat Yellow and has 3306, or whatever, on the valve cover it may not be the same thing or ever close. Might not be as bad as a inline 6-71 Detroit, those had maybe thousands of different variations, but still even two D6C Cat engines might not interchange without major changes.
Didn't mean to sound disrespectful to Miller's comment, I just meant that I drained out 4.5 gallons of oil from the engine. Don't see how I could have ran it too low on oil.
Miller never said the oil was too low. He said the bearings don't get oil due to excessive leakage elsewere.
WOW, 15 pages and we still don't know what s/n and arrangement numbers we are dealing with !!!!!!!!!!!!
D6c serial number 10k10536 Engine serial number 3n24054 arrangement number 4n7635
Ok, that's one of the engines. What are the numbers of the one your trying to transplant??
Thanks for the response. The replacement engine serial number is 66d4353 The arrangement number is 8n4559. I called Zeigler caterpillar, they said that their computer records do not go back that far.They said the best way to compare is to do a visual comparison. If you can help me out with the compatibility, that would be great! Steve
Did you ever call the folks I pm'd you about? They are really good at these type repairs and could save you thousands over the dealer. I don't doubt they have a running take out that would bolt up.
Well to begin with the 10K engine is a 3306 and the 66D is a D333C so there isn't going to be much in the way of interchangeability. Water pumps are different, timing cover is different, the 10K is sleeve metering injection pump and the 66D is early scroll type. The engine oil pumps are different part numbers. The oil pan part numbers are different. Engine arrangement numbers don't apply to the 66Dxxxx (industrial engine) they go strictly by s/n only. If it is to work at all you would have to install the complete D333C engine, first checking that the oil pan would clear plus match up of flywheel housing and flywheel. Would be similar to the early 10K series that started out with the D333C
I see you have the same issue with dyslexia as me .... the correct arrangement is 4N7365 ... I did the list of differences to convert 8N-4559 Arrangement to 4N-7365 Arrangement and it's so long it would make your head spin ... it's actually simpler to say what parts are common and the list is very short. Basically the cylinder block, crank, rods/pistons, cylinder head, flywheel housing, oil pan, engine & trans oil coolers, gear group, inlet/exhaust manifolds, & turbo just for starters.... Take heart though - the engine oil pump is the same ...! In answer to OM's question above. No, the oil pans are not the same .... Edit: I checked SIS and 66D04353 is listed as a "3306 Industrial Engine", and the 8N-4559 Arrangement Number also ties in with the Serial Number.
My bad, I said D330C and meant D333C and corrected same. I do have the 66D1-66D8890 parts book and there is no reference to a 8N-4559 arrangement. Pan part numbers are not the same although maybe they have a supersede interchange. Same with the oil pumps. I show a 2P1785 oil pump for the 10K and 7S9461 for the 66D I show a 2P6152 oil pan for the 10K and 7L7559 for the 66D Ok, got it, the pans are different. I jumped right to the 7365 Again, my understanding the engine s/n's and arrangement numbers didn't occur until the 3304/3306 designations.
This is where TMI-web info occasionally has to be used with care. Comparing the latest iteration of 8N-4559 (CHG 09) and 4N-7365 (CHG 11), both use the same 2P-1785 Engine Oil Pump Gp. The 8N-4559 has always used that pump, the pump only came into the 4N-7365 Arrangment at CHG 06. Regarding the oil pan, 2P-6152 is the latest P/N used on 8N-4559, 3N-2899 is the oil pan used on the CHG 11 version of 4N-7365. Of course any engine built before the latest Change Level could have a different P/N of anything on it....
Come on now guys! They are painted the same color( or is that colour) so they are the same right? Sorry, at least a little, about the smart *** remark but for someone with little to no experience with the subtleties the various versions of this or any engine I can only see this as turning into a major money pit of a job. Dickjr makes a good point About contacting someone with first hand knowledge. There are many excellent people here giving advice any of them would be able to handle the job in person, BUT and that is a very big but, there is only so much that can be done via email. Things that would take hundreds or thousands of typed words could be answered in a matter of seconds by someone with hands on the project. I know the urge is there to do it yourself and I at times get caught up in a project that I would have been better passing on to someone with more first hand knowledge, right now it seems like you are at that point on this one.
Can't trust that SIS either...
Wow,my head is spinning with all this information. Didn't realize there are so many variations to that engine. I don't know what I am going to do. Everyone here says that it is not worth rebuilding, too much to replace, clean up, too much time to spend on it. Rebuild from Capital Reman in Denver said that they can build an engine for me to the exact specifications of my serial number and arrangement number shipped to my door for $9,200.It would be a rebuild engine with new parts, reusing my oil pan,oil pump and value cover. I really appreciate all of your responses, but would like a little more advice on this option.
Sold!
That seems like a very reasonable price. What do you know about their operation and reputation? Add a new aftermarket oil pump 2P1785, approx $200 or maybe go to Cat Classic which will undoubtedly be a bit more. I'd forget about the 66D unless you get the parts book to go along with it as there seems to be confusion over the identity of the pieces.
9200$ versus 25k at the dealer for a leisure machine is the only way to go. Most of these guys know these things insides and outs , some use previously used parts but are checked thoroughly. Check the background , the folks I sent the link too , I'll vouch for them. The thing about not going thru the dealer , they may not require you to do the coolers and radiator. Make sure the gauges are working properly and if the temps are not right correct the problem , this will ensure the longevity of the engine.
Wasn't this where we came in..?
Just to be straight here I would not even think of reusing the engine oil cooler off this engine! I would run fast from anyone who said, no problem we'll flush it out and it will be fine. Not saying the people being mentioned are claiming this just a point of information. As to any other coolers say transmission or hydraulic they should be fine if proper care was taken when they were removed. And radiator should be cleaned inside and out if for no other reason than it is too easy at this point and will save from having problems down the road.
Yes, I have noticed that in SIS at least with the D330/333 engine powered equipment they tend to default to information on 3304 or 3306 engines. That is where not having access to the old paper based manuals at I had where I worked has me at a disadvantage.
yeah, never reuse a engine oil cooler after a contamination failure. It's impossible to get them clean enough in my opinion. I won't even warranty an engine doing that.
Thanks for your response. My phone has been down. Your responses stopped me from buying that ag engine and making a big mistake. New engine long block has been ordered, will be here in a couple weeks. Company name is Capital Reman and Exchange, Denver, Colorado.
Can we ask what you ended up paying?
I wonder with the old engine being in such bad shape how much power it had lost? Will a new engine make the dozer seem like a new machine or be pretty much the same power wise.
$9500,I can keep the core
I have one question about this option, and it may be of critical importance. You say that "It would be a rebuild engine with new parts, reusing my oil pan, oil pump and valve cover." Now do you have to send these parts to the rebuilder for them to install or do you have to install said parts once the assembled engine arrives at your end..? The reason I'm asking is that if you send the parts to the rebuilder I would assume that the engine is at least run (but not necessarily dyno-tested) before dispatch. HOWEVER if you are expected to install the parts when the engine arrives there is no way that I can see that the engine has even been run by the rebuilder before he shipped it to you. I am not trying to suggest the rebuilder is a dodgy organization but do you see where I'm going with this...? What happens if you get it installed and it won't start, or does start but doesn't develop oil pressure, or has a crack somewhere and coolant is pi$$ing out of it..? At that point whose responsibility is it..?
Somewhere along the lines, you have to trust people .I try to look at the glass as being hall full..if I am wrong, then a huge mistake
It's nothing to do with trust, it's about whose responsibility it is to sort out an issue on an untested engine that may only show itself once the engine is installed and runs for the first time. What are they going to do, put a guy on a plane from Colorado to Minnesota just to sort out your engine..? I don't think so. I'll be honest I wouldn't personally install an engine that hadn't at least been test-run on the floor first, UNLESS I'd rebuilt it myself, because then if there was any problem it would be on my head.
Maybe I am wrong about this but, are any engine long block applications actually test run before they are shipped out?
I don't know this company but after a google search I don't see any bad reviews, .etc. When I have researched re-builders in the past It's easy to find The bad ones. Also they have a national warranty 6 months parts and labor then 6 months parts. I wouldn't be afraid to use them. Good luck Randy
My apologies. You are correct - long blocks are not generally test-run before shipping. I missed your post further above the one I was quoting from that said it was a long block, I just focused on the fact that it would be missing an oil pump, pan, etc.... It may be hard for you to believe but everyone who has been posting here wants you to succeed in your endeavours of getting this tractor up & running again reliably.
Thanks a bunch!I know that I am taking a chance, but life is full of risk!
Whoops, double post..........
I plan to set up my own test stand and do a test run before installing the engine
Can anyone help me, give me some advice on how to clean the turbo of contamination from the oil particles, or
I doubt a long block would be test run
Guess I'm coming in late here. Make sure the warranty options are very clear with this company. They used to be call Blakes Reman and closed after customers tried to sue them. Capital Reman Exchange is their new name they just got it going last year. !!!
Nothe what I want to hear. Warranty seems pretty much spelled out, legit. Thanks for the response!
The engine might be top notch, I just thought I would let you know, the company went through hard times and I don't know all the details since I never did business with them. But now you know, maybe do some research and come to your own conclusion...
I went to the bbb,they didn't have any negative comments on the company..They did say that they are a new company and are registered with the state of Colorado, if that means anything!
Oh boy I found this on facebook about Blakes Reman . Hopefully they've changed their ways. www.facebook.com/pg/Blakesreman/reviews/ I hope you didn't pay in full. I would never do that with anyone. Actually I'd pay with a credit card and the credit card company could go after them or stop payment.
This does not look good...
We got caught with a problem a couple years before I retired. Not a Cat but one of those engines named after a city in Michigan. Well a different branch of our company did the rebuild and then sent it to us to install in the Grove crane. Went to fire it up and luckily being the paranoid guy I can be did not let it start until I saw oil pressure on the gauge, which never happened! After some intense trouble shooting by cranking it over with shut down pulled and no sign of oil flow we dropped pan to find out the oil pump had been installed in the wrong position! Now correcting this on an engine sitting on the shop floor would not have been a bad job, drop pan and pull front cover rotate pump and reassemble. To do this in chassis in a rough terrain crane was somewhat less fun to say the least. Hate to think the damage that would have happened if we had not been careful and just let it start up and run for a few seconds before realizing there was no oil pressure!
Seeing no one has responded to this question I might as well put in my 2 cents. Just like with the engine itself the only way to be sure it is clean is to disassemble and wash every part while checking for any wear or damage. So unless you are equipped to do that you best bet might be to get an exchange cartridge or have a shop that does that work rebuild yours.
Well, I've overhauled a couple turbos and well, they're easy as pie!! spin off the compresor wheel, pull the housings apart, clean it all squeaky clean, toss in new journal and thrust bearings and zip it all back together. Even the VGT turbos are pretty easy, remember to index everything so you get it clocked right.
True for the most part, but a lot depends on ones abilities. Along with most of the turbos on the engines I rebuilt over the 40+ years at the shop I also did just about all the Detroit blowers. Had to make a few special tools to get them apart without damage, too cheap to buy factory pullers, but that is not a job I would be telling someone I did not fully understand their mechanical abilities to without being there to grab away the big hammer if they got frustrated at some point. About the worst part of some turbos was getting the six 5/16 bolts that held the cartridge in the exhaust housing without snapping them off!
Last thing on a turbo, don't run fingers across the seal mating surfaces, leave them clean and apply a light film of oil when assembling the bearings. Bearings should float housing and shaft.
Has anyone on this forum ordered a rebuild engine from Capital Rebuild and Exchange company, Denver, Colorado?I would like to know about your experience, good or bad!Please let me know. Thanks.
Thanks for the advice on the turbo.
Have you considered a Diesel Mechanic's school to do a rebuild. Years ago, Dunwoody, a noted heavy equipment school in MN, used to rebuild folks engines and transmissions as class learning projects. Engine owner had to pay for parts only. Not sure if they still do it or if they would accept a old school engine. Might be worth a call.
Thanks, I will check into it!
I have to purchase a new engine oil cooler for a long block engine that is on order.Next to the engine oil cooler is the hydraulic oil cooler. My question is, why does the hydraulic oil have to go through the hydraulic oil cooler, then go up to the cooler on the radiator and get cooled twice?I am still learning!!
Still working on it?
Waiting for engine long block coming this week from Capital Reman Exchange.
Yah,it really has been a long time ,but I am really excited about the next phase of this project. When we get it finally up and running wife and I will make a video of it up and running!Can't thank you guys enough for all the great advice. I am sure that I will have some more questions for you all ! Take care Steve
Watched several 3306 crate engines sell on gov't lic the other day....brought more than I expected. Ran in the $12-$14,000 range. These were D7F engines all complete.....if you could still get them from Cat I can't imagine what they would charge. I suppose they are in demand because they're pre-emissions engines too. http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=11851529&convertTo=USD There are 3 more coming up for sale on March 16
Do you mean precombustion engines?Sounds kind of pricey. Were they new engines?My long block is supposed to be shipped out of Denver today.
No pollution crap on them, no electronics and just a proven diesel engine.
They look like they are new,ready to drop in.That maybe, would have been a better way to go.
I'm guessing they're pre-comb engines but I couldn't see for sure in the pics. They're set up for 189 hp so it would make your D6 a real powerhouse. The procurement history lists a couple of prices 1997....$16,100......another undated price of $22,072. Vendor is listed as Caterpillar but who knows if new or re-man. I'd like to have one of those rat-holed myself but don't think I can sink that much in one. (plus 12.5% buyer's premium and probably $1000 shipping)
Here's the other 3 coming up just for curiosity.... http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=11851569&convertTo=USD http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=11851510&convertTo=USD&addtowatchlist=true http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=11851461&convertTo=USD
Wish I would have waited a little longer! Oh well!!
Those are DI engines. About 1998 vintage.
Can you run an older d6c with more hp than what the machine is rated for??Seems to me more hp would stress out the other components of the drive train!
As long as weight is not added or the tracks modified beyond normal for enhanced traction the extra horsepower should not add drivetrain stress. The machine are designed strong enough to easily spin the tracks without failure to the drive system. It should just do the same work at a better speed if doing something like ag work. Every time a steering clutch is pulled you double the HP available to the other track.
Thanks for your input. I got received the engine long block today! Getting started with the conversion.
Is it normal for the turbo to have a slight drag ,when it is turned by hand. Mine seems to turn a little rough! Your input is greatly appreciated.
Drag is one thing, rough is another.. A fresh turbo w/ assembly lube will spin for about 5 seconds w/ a spin on the nut from your fingers. The side to side play is equally important..
It is hard to spin!I am going to have to disassemble it, put new bearings in.Thanks..
I think at least one person tried telling you that with all the crap that went through this engine anything motor oil touched would need to be thoroughly disassembled and cleaned if not out right replaced. I'm hoping this "new" engine came with a new or remaned oil cooler do not even think of reusing the old one. If the new engine does not have the oil filter head with it yours needs to be completely disassembled with every fitting and plug removed and all holes thoroughly scrubbed clean. Not sure of what fuel system this engine has but if the injector pump is lubed by engine oil I feel that would also need some good cleaning to be safe. It would not be good if you were to start the new engine and something was caught in the governor and made the engine overspeed and blow up. That would surely ruin my day if it was mine!
Yes, I have a new oil cooler coming,also a new oil pump is here and I am cleaning all of the oil passages and ports.The fuel pump is a sleeve metering system and is lubricated by diesel fuel. Thanks for letting me know about the oil filter head. I very easily would have missed that.You guys are a BIG help. Thanks a bunch !
Hey, a couple questions for my friends on the forum. I am finishing up putting the new engine together and would like to know if I should add oil to the flywheel crankcase or does it get oil from the transmission case?When I took it off,about three gallons of heavy gear lube came out of the crankcase. Also, what is the most accurate way of timing the fuel pump?
Some pictures of the new engine. It fit in the machine like a glove. So far I have spent a little over?10,000 and my own labor! kind in
You will be well ahead of the game once done. Should be a fine machine.
Just wait till you get to tear into the back part of it. I'd be scared poopless with one 7/8 washer tacked lifting and twisting 1,500lbs. on each. Looks like if it holds together ya got something good to work with.
Yikes! I did not notice that till I went back and looked closer. I know I would not trust my "welding" for something like that. Strange thing is I seem to recall the 3306 engines in our loaders all came with nice heavy duty lifting eyes already installed.
Yes I know but I had the engine safely strapped also,it all went in just fine with our telehandler lift .I just hope it starts!!
What do you mean about tearing into the back part of it?I don't expect any more problems!!
I see your optimism hasn't been dampened yet, despite all the tribulations you've had with the engine. Give it time ......... you might not be expecting any more problems but with a 50-year-old (or somewhere thereabouts) tractor you can bank on something taking a dump on you at some point in time. Sooner or later it WILL happen.
Hopefully not!!
We used as insignificant of lifting eyes in the field as I was a wrench, you did with what we could make or scrounge up. Welds looked alright although I would have aligned the washers with the engine centerline, we did use home built spreader bars to keep from pulling the eyes toward center and to level as needed as well.
I am no stranger to problems with a caterpillar d6.We used to have a d69u series tractor with a dry clutch and a pony starter engine. I remember taking the clutch out of the machine more than one time,that was a lot of fun working on that machine. That engine though was as tough as nails. I don't remember ever having a problem with the engine. They don't make them like they used to. That being said, I am hoping for a good run with this machine.
Yair . . . Steve. I admire your optimism but questions like this seem to indicate you still don't have a manual . . . . It is quite beyond me. Obviously you have so much in this machine now why the hell would you not spend a few hundred bucks to get proper Caterpillar advise? Don't be in a hurry to start that engine. With a strange and unknown engine with assorted bolt on bits and pieces I have been known to hook up a little gear pump and pressurize all the galleries and crank before bolting on the sump. At very least I would decompress it (or pull injectors), line up some spare batteries and check it makes and maintains oil pressure with the starter . . . check for flow anyplace that it should drip. That's me though, I'm just a bush mechanic. Rough and all as I am I have ever done an engine change without at least a decent pressure wash of the machine and immediate surrounds, once you start getting into the guts of things the housekeeping needs to be up to scratch. All the best with it.
Also, before starting I'd leave the air cleaner housing off and have a plate handy in case you get a run-away engine that won't shut down. Slap the plate over the inlet to cut off the air. (Make sure there aren't any shop rags close by that might get sucked in)
And if you do need to use the plate to kill the engine don't get your fingers between the plate and the intake! Might want to have a handle like a drawer pull on it to be safe.
Thanks for all of the advice. I do have a manual but doesn't say anything about how much oil should be in the torque converter case!!,at least I cannot find it.The back pages list oil capacities, but nothing for converter case!!I I am very confident that the fuel pump is timed correctly. Why would the engine take off and run wild if I am controlling the fuel pump handle?If my hand controls the amount of fuel the engine is getting, why would it take off, run wild?THANKS
Well if this is a powershift D6 and you filled the transmission to the correct level and recheck it per the manual after you have it running it should be good to go. I admit I'm a bit confused by this statement: "When I took it off,about three gallons of heavy gear lube came out of the crankcase. " I have no idea of what you are talking about when you say "flywheel crankcase" and then you use the term "converter case". There is something wrong if there is heavy gear lube in a torque converter, what is in the transmission? If I'm off base here and there is suppose to be heavy gear lube in that area I hope someone can point me to the correct information. Your hand only really controls the pressure on the spring in the governor, it's not like the throttle in a carburetor engine where the linkage is connected directly to the butterflies in the carb. It's your money and life so if you choose not to take advice from those of us who have a combined knowledge of hundreds of years go for it! Just noticed your location, do a search on awards by that name.
I meant to say converter case. The oil that drained out, looked to be heavier than transmission oil.It looked pretty thick, about three gallons!So I shouldn't add any oil to the converter case?
I hate to even get involved in this mess!!! No you don't add oil to the torque converter cover sump. Oil that accumulates there is leakage from the torque converter and it is the function of the scavenge pump to transfer this oil to the transmission. If leakage exceeds the scavenge pump capacity and the oil level reaches the spinning torque converter their will be major power loss, foaming and overheating of the transmission oil----requiring a torque converter reseal and possible overhaul. Capacity of the scavenge pump could also be in question.
I tried to do a search on the forum about how much oil you might find in the converter housing, could not find anything right off. But off the top of my head 3 gallons sounds a little excessive. I would at the very least pull the suction line and screen to make sure it is not plugged. An inspection of the scavenge pump would also not be a bad idea. This is one of those reasons I would not want to pull a converter out of a machine with out resealing it unless I was 100% sure it was perfect or had just been rebuilt in the last year. 90% of the labor is already done and for a few more dollars in gaskets and seals you will know it is right when engine goes back in. I believe the converter in a D6 is similar to that in a 966C and I have seen many of those where the vanes in the stator are getting very loose. Actually don't recall one failing but if one did that would not be pretty!
Agreed, 3 gpm under operating conditions would be excessive leakage. Pump is rated at 3.2 gpm. Torque converter stall test is usually for one minute to check on leakage rate. Now would be the time to check the converter and scavenge pump.
LOL..I was wondering when someone would connect the dots, but being new here I didnt want to bring it up....
Yair . . . . Your lack of understanding of the basics is frightening. As pointed out above by kshansen t he 'throttle' control regulates the pressure on the governor spring . . . if there is a malfunction in the governor or fuel pump (often due to uninformed personnel adjusting or dismantling components they know SFA about) any diesel can 'run away'. A possible cause of runaway at start up is if a turbo has been played with by folks who know SFA about what they are doing and damage seals allowing crankcase oil to get into the intake . . . I have seen that happen. Very spectacular and expensive unless you have a kill plate handy as others here have mentioned. An engine overfull of oil can run away, a worn engine can run away on crankcase vapours, it can and does happen. Cheers.
What was the procedure you used to time the injection pump? Takes some special tooling to check/set whether it be scroll or sleeve metering type pump.
#1 cylinder at top dead center, 5/16th pin in the flywheel, 1/4 in.drill bit in the fuel pump shaft,turned the gear until the drill bit slipped into notch in the pump shaft ,with gear loose on shaft, then tightened the gear bolt. Sleeve metering system.Everything seems to be going together great! Thanks
Well not the most absolutely correct way but will pass for being a farmer. Make sure you tightened the bolt with the holder. I have seen the gears slip on the shaft. Yup, thick black gear oil looking stuff in the converter housing. Time to do the back half! And that will be a easy 20-30k. I woulda resealed the TC at the minimum if I had it out with the engine.
Guys, thanks for the assurance I was not being out of line for voicing my thoughts. I know I can at times seem to be very free with other people's money and time but just don't want to find out that because I kept my mouth shut someone lost thousands of dollars or got hurt. I know I could scare the heck out of some if I brought up some of the things I have done in a pinch to get something running. But most of the time I was fully aware of what the negative outcome could be and had approval from the powers that be to "Get It Done!"
We've been fighting with these machines probably longer than you have been around. Lots of insight, lots of hard lessons learned be mindful that when someone says something it could be a dividing line between success or salvage.
Yah, I know you have my best interests in mind. It's a little hard to hear though. Thanks for all of the comments. I have read them all.
Update? Busy working it? Scrap it?
I am getting close to start up. We have been scuba diving in Cozumel, have been working just part time on the reconstruct.Also am getting ready to lose more money FARMING!!
Scrap it???I When I am done with this machine, it's going to have a new paint job and new decals.You will not believe the transformation!!
Perserverence and paint. Sounds like a good combination. We all are waiting for the start up video.
Finally got this mahine to start up after getting the air out of the fuel line. How much time does it take for the oil pressure to build and show on the pressure gauge?I am a little gun shy after what I have been through with this machine!!She ran for about 20 seconds, no reading on the gauge so I shut her down. Your response is greatly appreciated,
If you had to crank it for any amount of time to bleed the air out of the fuel lines I would think you would have pressure BEFORE it even started. I know on any rebuilt engine we did we would not even let the engine fire till we saw pressure. First this is are you sure the gauge works? As I recall this machine had a major failure that filled everything with metal crap. I believe I had said something about making sure each and everything that oil touches is either cleaned spotless or replaced. Well the oil pressure gauge sure would touch the oil. Very possible the line and or gauge has metal particles in it causing it to not work. First thing would be to disconnect the line at both ends and blow air through it in both directions and then flush out with some penetrating oil. Then wash the end of the gauge where the line connects with something like brake clean. Test to see if it works with some air pressure and then hook line back on the gauge and blow air in from the engine end to prove it still works. Then before connecting at engine crank engine over with fuel in shut down position to see if there is any oil flow. Now connect the line that goes to gauge and again with fuel in shut down position try cranking over to see oil pressure on gauge. It should not take too long if the engine is assembled correctly. If still no pressure you need to install another gauge right at the engine and again crank without stating to see if you have pressure.
Thanks so much. I really value your wisdom. I made sure that I cleaned and blew out the oil
Thanks for the response. I took off the elbow on the oil pressure line on the engine, turned the engine over a few revolutions, there's no oil coming from the engine! Is there anything else, short of taking the pan off again, that could be causing this?the oil line is clean and open!
Yair . . . You actually ran it for twenty seconds? What can I say? . . . . this is a copy and paste from a post up thread of mine . . . . . . Cheers.
Probably more like 10 seconds .When a new oil pump is installed,does it have to prime with oil before it starts pumping oil?I took the elbow on the engine off ,no oil in the elbow!!
ill ask it even though im sure you did...but did you fill the engine with oil? dont laugh, I had a friend who toasted a brand new rebuild of a 396 chevy big block, we jumped in his car and he took off and after about 15 minutes of beating the heck out of it, he quickly pulled back into his driveway and stated.." dam, I didnt put any antifreeze or water in the radiator"..that was enough to warp the heads and screw up the rings.....he wasnt a happy camper...
The pump should have been pre-lubed prior to engine assembly, packed with either white lithium grease, filled with assembly lube or the engine pressure lubed prior to start as that would fill the gear pump. Did you use assembly lube on everything, pistons and rings(oil), bearings, camshaft, etc.? Twenty seconds does not sound long but an engine idling at 500+ rpm has plenty of time to rub away assembly lube and start pulling babbitt.
We never bothered with priming new pumps, just coated pump parts with a little oil while assembling them. Most engines we just spun over with starter a few seconds to get oil pressure then let them start. Sometimes when it was available we did plumb in an air powered barrel pump to force feed the oil galleys. Other times we might crank it over with valve cover off to let us see that the rockers were getting oil. Even 10 seconds running under no load with no oil pressure would scare me.
Yair . . . All my operating life (in an era when heavy equipment had mechanical fuel shut offs) I liked to at least see the oil gauge flick before hitting an engine with compression and fuel. According to Gardner diesels it is a very different lubrication scenario between an engine running at idle and the crankshaft being driven with the starter. . . in the latter scenario (if the engine is decompressed) the only load on the reciprocating journals is basically the weight of the assembly and the friction in the bore . . . not so when its running. The UK manufacturers (in that era)were absolutely anal about prelubrication. Many the larger units were furnished with hand pumps to pump up pressure before a start. They stress that just a few revolutions of a heavy crankshaft laying on the bottom of it's clearance with no film of oil is enough to "wipe" a bearing . . . perhaps not sufficient to cause an immediate failure but it would materially affect the life of the assembly. As mentioned by Kshansen a ten second run with no oil pressure would really bother me to the extent that if it was proven that in fact there WAS no oil pressure I would dismantle that bottom end just for piece of mind. Once the engine was running the sometimes messy task of lifting the rocker box lid to check for top end lube was standard practice Cheers.
First things first, yes oil and filter are fresh.I guess stranger things have happened. I don't know if new oil pump is faulty or just needs a little more time to pressure up!I don't want as another failure, so will drain the oil and pull the pan off ,check for pump malfunction. I doubt I will see anything wrong. It bolted up without a hitch. that's why this is going to be a rotten sleep nite. I don't have any way of pressuring the engine,wish I did!The engine is a longblock 3306 caterpillar engine, added my fuel pump and oil pan.I didn't add any lubricant to the crankshaft and pistons,maybe should have. I also added a new oil pump.Any other ideas, short of dropping the pan??THANKS for the response
The only prelubing that I did, was to fill the oil filter with oil.
On a marine site I'm on some guys just use an outboard motor squeeze ball to prelube an engine. I would beg borrow or buy some kind of pump to prelube it. I'm not an expert but 10 seconds with assembly lube doesn't bother me much. I'm sure many engines have seen more time than that before getting pressure. Cold engines don't get lube that fast and assembly lube is better than oil that has been draining off the bearing for weeks or months,
7.5 gallons of oil in the crankcase, wouldn't that completely submerge the pump and prelude it?Also, the temperature here is in the 40's, would that delay the oil pressure rise?THANKS
Well for the time and money you already have in to this engine how about this: http://www.harborfreight.com/12-gpm-air-operated-barrel-pump-93755.html It's not like you won't find a use for it next time you change oil in something. Might be worth hooking it ups while pan is off for a few seconds to see where the oil come out. A bit of a mess but so isn't a pile of metal in a new engine.
Just had a thought,would it work to add another two quarts of oil, remove the rocket cover,add pressurized air to oil pressure port in the block,watching to see if oil comes up and circulates ?
If I'm reading this right all I see this as accomplishing would be to blow any oil that might be in the oil passages out. If anything this would make it even harder to prime the lube system.
Too easy to rent/borrow/build your own pre lube can, then do it right. Mine is a old truck air tank with a welded in pipe nipple and cap, it has a air shrader valve where I only apply 10-15# air to it as doesn't take a whole lot to force oil thru the engine.
Not sure if its possible or if you already pulled the pan but send some oil backwards down the outer filter port so it settles down atop the oil pump. An oil pump soaked with oil really should prime itself in a hurry.
I think I can make something to work. I haven't pulled the oil pan off yet, I am avoiding that as long as I can. I like the idea about forcing air down the filter base. When adding air pressure in the oil port, is oil added at the same time?THANKS for all the great ideas,
The ports on my block are above the oil level in the engine. Should oil be added above the port to force it upward under air pressure?
Lots of fancy ideas! see if your oil filter has a check valve in it maybe. I'd pull the oil pressure sensor, take a quart bottle of oil with a gear lube spout on it, stuff the spout into the sensor hole and stab a little hole in the bottom of the oil bottle, put the blow gun in there and give it a little puff until it kinda rounds out nicely.
There's no oil coming from the engine elbow connected to the oil line up to the pressure gauge
Is easy enough to check a pressure gauge, they usually don't care fluid or gas. Take your shop air hose, regulate it down to 30-50#, attach that to your oil gauge line at the engine block connection end. VERIFY the gauge works.
I will do that. Easy to check, as you say!
PROVIDED it does read, I still suggest setting up a air powered oiler. You do not want to send air into the oil rifling just the oil. I use around two to three quarts in my old air tank, fitting at bottom when stand it up feeds oil to engine air on top. Use a standard cheap 90 degree off on valve to control. Feed a minute or so slowly then shut it off and shake the tank, do that until minimal oil in tank and gauge has shown a pressure on machine.
It can't get any easier than this.
I still say if it ran for 10 seconds even a bone dry pump should have picked up it's prime if the oil level was evn close to the full mark on the dipstick! This is especially more true if the engine was cranked over for a bit to get the fuel system bled! But if we are going to keep trying to force feed this engine oil how about this off the wall idea? Do yo have another running machine handy? Pull the oil sender out of the running one and hook a hose from that one over to this Cat preferably to a spare point in the oil galley of the Cat and start the other machine. If you want to be real sure pull the valve cover off the Cat and watch for oil coming out around the rocker arms. Just don't let it sit there for half an hour, you don't want the oil level to get too low in the supply machine. Hard to know for sure at this distance but from what I'm reading I'm under the idea something is left out of the engine, like an oil galley plug or someone plugged off something and forgot to remove it when installing something like an oil cooler. Or maybe installed a check valve backwards. Like I said hard to know from over here.
I like the idea about hooking up to another engine!Would a tractor engine work fine?How much oil do I dare transfer from the tractor?Your second thought about the oil filter base plugs,I did remove them, flushed them out with soap and water, maybe installed wrong. Don't think so though!I really appreciate your knowledge!Thanks
I've been following this thread and I really like Steves outlook on things, seems like a postive type of guy. Me being a realist though I think it might be time to get a good local diesel mechsnic out for the startup. I wouldn't think he had to be a dozer tech just a good diesel tech. Back to the oil priming the Case I have has a switch you can hold until the engine builds oil pressure then release it to fire. I only use it if it's been sitting awhile or really cold outside. I really hope you get this mess lined out and the dozer operating again. Goodluck
X2 on getting a knowledgeable mechanic to take a looksie, something aint right.. all my equipment even after oil changes shows pressure on the oil gauges within a few seconds of start up, it would be a shame to trash the bearings or worse at this point over a possible simple mistake, the $$ spent on a mechanic to take a hands on look may be your best move..
Hobbytime I've got a Kubota tractor that takes about 5-10 seconds to show oil pressure and when it's freezing temps seems like 20 seconds. Scares the heck out of me everytime. It's my second one and they have both done this. Worse is the skid steer, no gauge just hope the light goes out.
my backhoe is like that sorta, it shows the gauge move at startup 5 to 10psi and then gets to 55+ after about 2o or so seconds, but at startup the needle does move to show something..but again it has done that for years, so I know its normal for that machine, but on a fresh rebuild and not knowing is more than scary..
Probably best to have someone else look at it. I just like to try everything I can myself first. I did replace the oil cooler. Is it possible that it's installed backwards,not allowing oil to pass through?I was unsure about which way to install it, didn't look like it made a difference?Just wondering!
I'm with you on always wanting to do things myself, I always feel a little defeated if I can't fix it. Might be best to let someone take a look with this kind of time and money on the line though. I would test that gauge before anything else though. At a minimum you could unhook the line from it and crank it with the fuel off for 10-15 seconds to see if oil comes out the line. Might do this several times. I wouldn't crank it too long at once as you could burn the starter up.
Boy it's painful reading, the 3306 will pick up oil in seconds from new,a simple thing to do to determine where you go with this is, remove the oil filter and crank the engine over with the throttle in the stop position, if there is NO oil pumping out within 10 rotations something is missing, probably the oil pump? tctractors
Steve did you pour any oil in the filter before you put it on? If not I guess you could see if the oil at least made it to the filter. I know some people say to never prefill a filter but I always do. Probably does more harm than good as most engines pick up in seconds as tctractors said.
Another good idea! If you don't want to make a mess just set a tin of some kind under the filter head. If no oil coming some thing real basic is wrong! Did someone put a plug in the suction port of the pump and it never got taken out, don't laugh things like that have happened!
I will try cranking the engine a few turns without the filter in, a little scary though. Yes,I first started wlith oil filter full of oil. If I see oil coming from filter base, should mean that pump is pumping oil,correct?I don't want to take the pan off unless I have to !Thanks for the great suggestions!
Have you checked your gauge yet?
Checked the gauge yesterday, works with air pressure real good!
That's a bummer, I was rooting for a bad gauge! Though a good gauge makes it more interesting.....
I am a little sceptical about adding oil with air pressure. I am concerned about blowing out the engine seals, if too much air pressure is added. Is that possible?
Not likely to blow out engine seals, if you put oil through a small hole the restriction and viscosity will kill most of the pressure, think big engine oil pumps are circulating oil at 15+ gpm If you take 10 seconds to move a gallon, you're still not up to the pump's level. The last time I moved a gallon in less than 10 seconds it was because I drove over a full oil jug.
its too late for this now, but for future projects, take a ton of pictures( easy with digital today) of almost every step you do, so you can see and show others without having to tear down the engine again what you did and how it was done..
Did you by chance forget to put the idler gear in the oil pump. You should have 2 gears on the oil pump when you install it.
LOL!!
problem found????
I've read this entire thread (I deserve a medal). I have a D6C 10K and I am dying to find out how this saga ends.
How about proper torque on the oil pump drive gear bolt? Tapered shaft...
On second thought they have a key as well, perhaps the key is missing?
I would be reluctant to blow or mess about trying to stuff oil in all sorts of odd spots, just crank the engine over with the oil filter spun off, put a pot under it if it helps you in some way? as I said before with the engine cranked over about 10 rotations with the throttle OFF, oil will pump out (Should pump out) very fast, the oil pump is low set in it's mounting position with a short reach suction basket, the pump plumbing is below the oil level so oil pick-up should not be an issue, the PRV is the Belville washer set-up on the oil pump body, the 2 valves in the filter head could be checked after the filter off test, the springs and plungers are easy to check, on the steel pipe that brings the oil from the side of the cylinder block up to the filter head you will find a plug at the mount point (Near Always?) through this location you can prime or Pre Start system fill if required???? tctractors
Just took the oil pump off,checks out putting an electric speed wrench as operating good, pumping oil. Not a fun job, but wanted piece of mind.Will bolt back up,checking rotation. Could the oil cooler possibly be installed backwards,not allowing oil to pass through??Will check oil filter base check valves, I had those out, cleaned up.
since you dropped the pan. take a consensus if it would be wise to pull a bearing cap or 2 to make sure the bearings havent been scored for lack of oil, it wont cost you anything but some time, if there are any metal bits or flakes you know you have other issues, if they look new then your good to go..
Steve, credit to you and your efforts, you must love wasting time and effort, the oil pump picks up oil from the sump, then pumps it out of a side port in the C/Block through an external pipe up to the filter head, I marvel at your Nutty idea's including your ability to waste time effort and money through your total inability with anything made of metal, I could build a 3306 out of a solid block of Steel with a Hacksaw and a hand file in the time you have wasted on this small task, just the other day I built up a 3306DI in 3 days from a new bare cylinder block with nothing in it, it might be worth in future avoiding anything to do with big chunks of Yellow Iron and construction forums as you are well out of your Comfort Zone, with these comments I am being kind and wish you no harm only good things, it would have been cheaper to have bought me an air ticket and sorted it with D.Trump so I could have tackled this job for you. tctractors.
What if he didn't want to continue cranking the "dry" engine to see if the oil pump worked? I guess also it's his time to "waste". Every time I get a new machine I "waste" my time on them so I can learn. I always have to laugh when internet experts tell you you suck and someone else should do it, instead of them just not bothering with the thread...
Tc just said what we all feel. Steve has proven many times thru this that he has no clue what he is doing. Others that do know what is going on tell him what to do and he continues to not listen. I am wondering how warranty is being affected with all this dry cranking? If there is any warranty at all.
I'll stat with the comment about "internet experts". I think that most of the replies Steve has been getting, from back on Nov. 16, 2016, have been from people who have been working on these same engines since the 1960's! I'm some what of a late comer in that regard as I probably worked on my first D333 or 3306 in the mid 1970's. And just take a look at the number of posts these people have had on this forum, most are well over 1,000. And if one took the time to read some of the other posts by these people you would see they are in no way what some would call "trolls"! As for cranking a "dry engine" no one has suggested he crank it more than a few seconds total, TC for one said 10 turns of the crank or less with fuel in OFF position, if we're are to believe the poster this engine was allowed to run for anywhere from 10 to 20 seconds with no oil pressure. Even assuming it never ran at no more than say 500 rpm idle speed that would mean it RAN turning the crank under partial load from the firing of the cylinders 80 to 160 revolutions so the chance turning it 10 more under no load is going to do any damage that was not already done is next to none!
tc, while I would be the first to agree you have more abilities than just about any others here I think you are forgetting one major thing here. You forgot all the empty bear cans you would have needed to melt down to make the pistons! Just emptying them would have added a couple days to the project
The 'internet experts" whom have spent countless hours helping on this post should have been praised, not condemned. From the beginning they have offered advice that was sound. I do admire the OPs continual optimism and the stick-to-it-ness to get this far. The experts here have continued to offer sound advice even when they were frustrated when their sound advice was countered with, "I might do this instead." Sometimes it makes a expert cringe when they read some of the things us amateurs do. Nobody wants to see a expensive rebuilt engine fail.
Well I might be a Troll or an Internet Expert as Mr etd66ss has tagged me, but this Steve is back where he started Months ago and loads of $$$ spent, hugging an oil pump out of an engine that " Ain't No Good " as for offering advise to this man it's a waste of time as he does the total opposite, words totally fail me how anyone can make headway in this World being this Bazaar, I hope the engine runs and never stops, I will stop posting on this site as it has left me feeling like something out of a Film with a Nest in it. Blood and Sand, tctractors
well they say an education costs...this time around its whatever time and $$ he put into the rebuild, it reminds me of a friend that would ask for advice and keep asking new people till he got an answer he liked, even though the other dozen people all gave the same answer he didnt like, as you can guess, he had many expensive failures, but he did learn after each one and didnt make the same mistake again, believe me there were plenty others(mistakes)on the list......
HOBBY do you work in my fuel shop?? I got a guy like that.. except he NEVER LEARNS from the mistakes and does the SAME THING over & over again.. I guess that's why he got fired last week.. 15 years to late, if you ask anyone working there.. I have no words about this thread that I haven't expressed after the 1st or 2nd page of the start of this thread.. & here we are 19 pages, 378 posts, a year in, & still the same problem different engine. I called it from the git-go..
Hansen, you and I are around the same time line, I can still remember having to rebuild my first Detroit rebuild when I failed to assemble it right, 1975. Was a expensive lesson where I bought the replacement crank and two rods. Just a 6L71 but a *** biter in every sense. I was on chargeable hours(flat rate) those days.
LOL..I think everyone has a friend like that....knowing ones limitations is good, sometimes you go out on a limb if you know the worse case scenario and cost( whats the most you can lose)..otherwise I will seek the wisdom of those who know..and follow it... ,,,and hopefully pick up some knowledge on the way..like others have said before the willing of the op to take the project on and do it yourself is hard to pass up hoping to save some $$...I cant fault the guy for trying, I would do the same, but again, I would double and triple check my work against manuals and people that have done it many times before successfully.. I hope the story has a happy ending...
Yair . . . , Bloody Hell !!! I come here for my morning hit of HEF and stumble into this. First off to tctractors. I understand your feelings mate but bloody hell . . . your demonstrated depth of knowledge is viewed on this board with absolute respect. If you go you will be missed by so many of us who value your advise and the way you post it with that special way you have with "verbs". (grins) This whole episode has been a fiasco with the original posters attitude being arrogant at best. In his life time he may have only had the one failure of this magnitude but doesn't seem to realise there are those who have been through it all a hundred times before. I have lost all sympathy for him and couldn't give a damn . . . it does seem a pity though that such an arrogant up himself arse hole may be about to screw up a perfectly good engine. Cheers.
tctractors...... please sir do not leave the site based on two people with um how do I say it....unique personalities. As far as the feller calling you a troll more or less, he didn't think before he did it. You have been on here going on 10 years, just short of 2,000 posts. ALL of which make us wish we were you. Hell I even asked my wife how long I could go awol to come learn from you. The man who badged you an "internet expert" hasn't read your thread and has offered only 84 posts himself. I would care to wager most were of similar nature. You are way too valuable a resource for us to do without. Even as mouthy and supposedly thick skinned New Yorkers claim to be they can't handle a man from the other side of the pond! Sometimes the thing that needs fixed isn't the machine itself..... Junkyard
I dunno, I read this whole thread, I'm sure tc is very knowledgeable, but he seems to kick ppl in the balls as much as he tries to help them (at least I get that impression from this thread anyways), all the while saying he's not really kicking them in the balls. Maybe his humor is not coming through in text, dunno. I also get that the OP seems to have some issues "following orders" frustrating those trying to help. I hope the new engine doesn't have any damage. I guess I'll shut up and just watch from now on.
I don't think he ever intends to kick anybody anywhere. He's just matter of fact and to the point, it's his way and sometimes his verbs seem to be a completely different vernacular even though it's still English haha. He's done all of this so many times I suppose it's frustrating because in his mind he KNOWS exactly what to do, why etc. Just one of those deals I suppose. I hope it all works out for the machine owner and tc stays here! Junkyard
I hope everyone is better at reading than I am at spelling, those were supposed to be BEER CANS!
On this point what I will say is it is fine to "Learn from your mistakes" but why not learn before you make the mistakes? I mean if there is a cast iron frying pan setting on the stove and three people say "Be careful the handle is hot!" A smart person would say thanks and reach for a pot holder to move the pan. Now someone not so smart might grab hold and pick up the pan then when his hand was hurting he'd drop it on the floor and damage the floor and possibly injure his foot at the same time. Both way they guy was able to know the handle of the pan was too hot to touch, but if he listened to the "experts" things would have worked out much less painfully! Now lacking any experts a smart person would maybe bring his hand close but not touch the handle to determine if it was hot or if he was a high tech nerd hit it with his infrared thermometer and know the temperature to two decimal places. Either way no personal injuries! As the saying goes "There's more than one way to skin a Cat!" all puns intended. Just try not to let the Cat skin you!
Hey TC, I sincerely hope you meant that you are through with only this post. In a lighter note, I need you man. I occasionally chat with one of the Queens finest in our local coffee shop and I sometimes memorize your verbs and use them on him. He really enjoys my attempts. I do hope we find out how this turns out.
I agree I hope you're only bailing out on this post!!! You've helped me a few times and amused me many times. Amused is the wrong word entertained is better. Your knowledge and "verbs" are the best. I like trying to understand them. I haven't seen any posts on your thread recently I hope you update it soon.
One of the most remarkable things about this forum is the mixture of expertise--from journeyman master spanner turners to operators and owners down to young professionals in the field and even us rank amateurs and hobbyists. I'm on my fourth piece of old yellow iron, and I consider it an honor and privilege when folks the like of TC and Scrub Puller respond to one of my posts! If the opportunity came about, I'd happily volunteer to clean grease and carry tools for days just to be able to watch y'all work. DMiller--since your close, some day I might just send you a message and ask if I can stop by to see the old Allis. That said--I can't help but commiserate with Steve. Though big Cats are fairly new to me, wrenching isn't--and my brother is a mechanic like few others. He had his own shop for awhile (unfortunately, his business skills aren't on the same level as his mechanicing skills...) and I would visit him there from time to time. One day he was finishing up an engine replacement on an ambulance--it was a rush job and he had it done in less than 3 days. Problem was, the first short block he got turned out to be bad (I think it had a crack) and he didn't discover it till everything was bolted up and he fired it up. Out came the engine, new block, swap all the parts, back in and refitted and out the door. That was two complete engine removals, rebuilds, and reinstalls in less than 3 days. My point is--should or could he have caught the bad block? I dunno. It was a rare thing and he ended up eating the cost. But I figure if it happened to him, it could happen to anyone. So..... do we know what's wrong with Steve's engine and the oil pressure? No. He's doing his best, which may not be as good as the worst of the likes of TC, but by golly, he DID actually have the engine running! What would the reaction have been if the oil pressure was fine and he posted a video of it running well and everything working? Lots of congratulations I'd like to think! Could be, maybe he got a bad block, a faulty pump, he missed something somewhere along the line--and yes, he should listen better. But you have to admire the guy! C'mon--there's not a fella here who hasn't bungled something sometime and ended up with egg on his face! My guess is that Steve saw the photo of the idler gear and started doubting himself, that he left it out or something and wanted to see for sure so off came the oil pan (something he was very reluctant and remiss to do). Yeah, he probably should have just pulled the filter and cranked the engine--but look at some of the comments that folks had about cranking an engine without oil pressure! I can see where that would scare someone out of cranking it. Caught between two bad choices he went the way that would do the least potential damage. He was getting advice to do an oil transfusion from another running engine, using air pressure to circulate oil, and so on. Then TC says "I would be reluctant to blow or mess about trying to stuff oil in all sorts of odd spots....". Think about that--he's getting conflicting advise from all around and so decides to do the one thing that won't hurt. And gets yelled at. Now I'm not defending him entirely--I've been following this thread for quite some time because I've found it to be highly entertaining and educational--a rare combination. But I have an immense respect for Steve's ability to shrug off the setbacks and keep at it. Reminds me of a fellow around here that goes around smiling far too much. But--I think that edt66ss went WAY out of bounds in his response to TC. That was entirely uncalled for. Sorry I ramble sometimes--but it's been thinking about this all day. -cavin
you summed it up the best from both sides of the coin... and again hopefully this has a happy, not too expensive ending...
To quote Spock, "The needs of many outweigh the needs of the few"! It would be a real shame to lose any of the extremely knowledgeable folks on this forum. Having been called out on other forums for basically telling it like it is based on years of experience, I can see where TC is coming from. I have stopped posting on other forums for short periods but still read the posts. A poster asks for help, you give your opinion, someone else disagrees and calls you out. Many times the person who's called me out puts their own spin on things to suit their own agenda. Example, someone is looking for advice on welding and what welder to buy. I suggest taking a course from a community college or finding an experienced welder, who would be willing to teach you, and spending a little more to buy a DC welder because a better machine will cut the learning curve way down and be way less frustrating, especially for a beginner. Then someone comes along and says you don't need to waste money on a course, you can buy a couple books and look it all up on the internet. An AC buzz box will do all the welding you ever need and last forever. Dave is just trying to spend your money for you! No, I'm not trying to spend the persons money. I'm trying to save them from a ton of frustration and selling their machine 6 month's later at a loss because they figured welding is too hard for them to learn. Welding is something you can't learn from a book, you have to actually pick up the stinger and weld. Books can help with what to do but a book doesn't have the sparks and smoke and sound that tells you what you're doing right or wrong. What brought me back was a couple things. Seeing people need genuine help with their welding and reading ridiculous suggestions from self proclaimed expert welders who have never had any schooling and think an apprenticeship is just a waste of time. The biggest reason I went back though was all the comments from people appreciating my experience and saying they look forward to my posts! Hope TC stays around. He tells it like it is but knows his stuff and that is invaluable!
I also have been following this thread with interest, I look after a few chunks of old cat iron with 3306s and have been learning. I am very curious to find out what is wrong here. I have overhauled 2 N 14 cummins and 1 3406e cat that I have started from new. I have never prelubed but always wished I did when I hit the key for the first time and watched the oil pressure guage with a sense of dread. I have counted to twenty before seeing oil pressure once it started after cranking for several 30 second cycles trying to get pressure up and not seeing any. One old timer who had rebuilt hundreds of engines told me "just fire it up, it's going to run or it won't, just get it over with". I would say if TC says it should have had pressure within 10 revolutions I would take that seriously. The 3306s that we have generally get pressure up 5 to 7 seconds after they fire under normal conditions. I am not sure what I would do if I was Steve but getting another opinion from a knowledgeable mechanic that can see it rather then read about it is a good idea!
Under normal conditions the engines retain oil in the rifle galleries bearings and other regions so oil just has to come to pressure not refill and make pressure. Still an engine running 10-20 seconds awaiting pump to draw and feed is a LONG LONG time. I made up my prelube tank several decades ago, IHC CO4070B air tank off a wreck. 2" pipe nipple welded with wire feed, simple cap and a shrader valve tucked in a factory hole. End bell had a delivery port so a shut off valve, 1/4" nylon tube and a assortment of odd compression fittings I can pretty well pressure up any engine. Been wrenching since 1975 for a paycheck, only ate one so far; knocking on my wooden head. Easy enough to add a cheap pressure gauge as well as more ports, left the drain valve in it so can stop the action or de-pressurize the tank. Plenty of junk yards around to cabbage upon one.
I am curious to know percentage wise,just how many of the mechanics on this forum actually prelude a rebuild engine?THANKS
Well where I worked we never started a rebuilt engine without cranking it over with fuel shut off till we saw oil pressure. Quite often would hook up the air powered oil pump and let it run for a couple minutes before starting. This did not take the place of either coating all bearing surfaces with either engine oil or assembly lube while being put together. Then there are the majority of new machines that we had after around 1999 those came right from the Cat factory with electric pumps that will not let you crank the engine until they see around 5 psi oil pressure. This is not just after a rebuild but every time it is shutdown for over a couple hours. And the big Cat gensets we had way back in the early 1970's had either hand powered or electric pump to build up a minimum amount of oil pressure before stating. Those gensets were set up to go to full rpm on starting so it was critical for them to have oil pressure right from the start.
I should say everything was coated in either lubriplate or motor oil, and yes 20 seconds is an eternity when that thing is running and no pressure, my point was that it was fine and the others also without being prelubed. I guess I can't say how long I would be willing to let one run until I panicked and tore it back apart, I shudder at the thought! I like your prelube setup DMiller, I am going to copy that idea, I have everything I need already.
TC is correct, 3306 should almost instantly pump oil! Simple check remove elbow-hardline coming out block to oil filter base. Use remote starter switch to crank engine. NO oil, check oil pump relief valve! SIS instructions SENR55590062 remove, rebuild 3304-3306 vehicular oil pump. Pre-lubing? Large displacement inline 6s V8-V16s yep! Oil pressure before cranking engine. Cummins V12-1710Cid per-service manual instructions...use filter head with by-passes blocked from opening; check injector rocker arm bushings for scoring after 1st start up. LONG journey for the oil to travel compared to a 3306. Delco-Remy manufactured starters with engine oil pre-lube gear pump built on #6956N or Cat#OR4998. Cat's service tool is made from a 'weed sprayer' with air pressure regulator, decal and pricey $$$$. [W]e have used coolant pre-heating before 1st start up, even before adjusting valve clearances. Want to know if you've done an excellent rebuild? PULL the engine apart and check after dyno torture...
I always crank an engine until oil pressure builds before allowing it to start. I prefer to decompress if possible (leave g plugs/injectors out) to relieve some of the strain on the starter and spin over faster. Plenty of assembly lube is my piece of mind during cranking, I don't like that sticky **** as it adds a serious amount of resistance, lubriplate is what I use. The only engine I've ever had an issue not building oil pressure cranking was a complete reman 4bt I installed in a Case skid steer. After leaving an air oiler like described above on it for a few minutes to prime, it build pressure just fine and gave no issues. If possible I prefer to test run any out of frame rebuilds I do on the shop floor, just for piece of mind incase there is an oil leak or unforseen issue that could be a royal pain to address once installed, and when installing in the field you know it's ready to rock!
I never start a fresh engine or one of unknown condition until I can generate oil pressure by cranking or some other means. It may not be an internal issue it could be an external hose or any number of other issues. On our race motors we go to the extreme. Dry sump tank has heaters on it, we heat the oil up to 180-200 and then run the oil pump with a drill motor until we feel the filter get warm. Meanwhile a pump is circulating warm water. We never run one to warm it, it stays warm and we bust it off when it's time to get down to business. Of course our schedule to freshen the motor is around 35 maybe 40 hours. The moral is, in any engine, hydraulic system etc if there is a way to test proper operation etc before starting, reassembling or working do so. The more deliberate you can be about things the better off you are. You learn something with each O/H and issue you encounter. If you have time to do it twice you have time to do it right the first time. I truly applaud your perseverance and foresight to at least come get some guidance. Junkyard
Cannot but reiterate as all here state, never have since my first ****up started an engine before knowing had oil pressure to keep it there.
I always pre lube a rebuilt motor
Yair . . . If folks care read back through the thread there is post where I suggested the O/P be in no hurry to start the "new" engine and decompress it or pull the injectors, have good batteries and crank it until it builds and maintains oil pressure. Now he asks . . . . I say again. I am not a mechanic but in all my operating life (if possible) I have never admitted fuel and compression to an engine unless I at least see the needle of the oil pressure gauge flick against the peg. I didn't mention that on an engine with unknown history it is vital to watch the gauge for a few minutes . . . I once lost most of the oil pressure on a reconditioned Perkins I'd fitted into a three point roller. Two days and nights later I found a scrap of rubber plug lodged within the crankshaft. Such occurrences (in my experience) were not common but happened often enough to make me ultra conservative. After cooling down from my original outburst I must say the O/P is pretty stiff . . . nine times out of ten he would not have an issue with his ill advised start. Cheers.
When I had my 3204 rebuilt, the shop stressed to turn it over with the fuel off until you get oil pressure and then you can turn the fuel on and start it.
I'm curious to know what Steve does for a living. The fact that he was able to get the old engine out and the new one installed and to this point shows that he is capable and has more skills than allot of folks. I think sometimes when people get out of thier comfort zone they start stressing and second guessing things and cause themselves more trouble. He should listen better to the advice given though. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to walk away for a few days and come back with a clear head and a "new" set of eyes. I would like to think I would have tried several things before pulling the pan in this situation but I wasn't there so don't know for sure. I would have definitely made sure I had oil pressure before trying to fire this engine. This thread reminds me of a saying my old boss had..."The only lessons you ever really learn are the ones that take hide off or cost you money".
I had to pull the pan to reassure myself that it was working. My own curiosity, I guess.I don't want you all to think that I am ignoring your suggestions, but I am getting advice from all directions and don't know who's advice I should try first. Please forgive me if I am coming off being arrogant. By the way, I am a dairy and crops farmer. Thanks again for the suggestions!
Not sure about the newer engines but the Cat manual for every old pony start machine that I have ever read says to build oil pressure before applying compression. The manual for the small cam 335 Cummins in my 1971 Kenworth says to pull the compression release lever out for starting. Release lever for starting when the oil pressure shows on the gauge. Edit: I will say that if you are making a living farming in Minnesota you are smarter than most. I am still looking forward to a video of it running.
If you aren't sure who's advice to take, don't go back and forth a dozen times questioning all of it. Call a dealer and ask them who's giving the correct advice. No different than reading stuff off the internet and not knowing what to believe. Generally though all you need to do is read a few posts from others and learn pretty quick who knows what they're talking about. TC is in that group. I also think you might have a little (or a lot) of OCD. Lastly saying you were getting advice from all directions and didn't know who's advice to try comes a little late. It was mentioned previously in a post as a possible explanation for your being confused.
And Cummins eliminated the compression release on later engines; exhaust push rod bonnets are hardened working with the compression release softer steel shaft. A tiny bit of steel is worn off everytime the compression release is used, LOL Cummins Re-con lower rocker box (cam followers) were a HUGE source of metallic contamination caused by sloppy assembly procedures, e.g. shaving off copper from the roller shaft. @ Steve, pre-filling oil filters...block the center hole with a plastic plug and fill via the outer holes. If you fill via the center hole that oil won't be filtered and goes directly to bearings, bushings etc. You do not know if the oil is contaminated even from a 1 gallon jug supplied by a major producer! You've tested the oil pump with drill motor. Okay Checked the filter base by-pass valves. Okay You can check for a missing plug using a air pressurized pot if the oil pan is still off, hook into the main oil galley via one of the block threaded plugs. You'll see oil dripping from the main-rod bearings, you should see oil dripping from the rocker arms. IF a plug was left out you can see or hear 'hissing noise'. The POT used be called a OIL LEAK DETECTOR! Sorry if you're confused!
Another question with the pan off, is there any sign of a oil suction point leak? Pickup tube sealing correctly to the pump body, no cracks or distortions at the mounting flange? All piping solid, no plugs missing or alternate suction ports open?
Oil is pumping well with speed drill wrench, no cracks detected in the pump. I plan to blow compressed air down the filter base, having someone down where oil pump passage is and see if air comes through. I am thinking that the oil is cold, doesn't flow like warm oil does. Rocker cover is off, no oil has moved up,that concerns me !!
Nothing that I can see wrong with suction port,no cracks in the pump. I probably will take a couple rod cap bearings off, check for metal pieces,really would be surprised if I find damage !!Can I crank the engine over,no fuel,glow plugs out, decompressed engine, until oil pressure shows without doing any damage to the engine? Someone on this forum suggested that. Sounds like a great idea. Thanks
Somewhat off topic but the mention of dyno torture brought back an old memory. this also did happen to be a 3306. Many years ago we had a boss who always wanted a rebuilt engine to be run in on a dyno before it was put back in a machine. Well this time we had finished rebuilding the 3306 out of a Cat loader and shipped it to the Cat dealer for it's run-in testing. Engine ran just fine but I was somewhat hated by the guy in the dyno room. Seems when hooking up the gauges to the engine he chose to use a fitting on the opposite side of the engine from where the oil gauge hooked when in the machine. The machine location was also opposite where he would be when engine was first started. Engine started and was running just fine then he walked over to the other side of engine to check things out. That's when he saw the oil coming from the gauge fitting on the block. It also just happened to be pointed straight at his roll box full of tools! He had some of the best lubed tools in the shop after that! Several years latter I was talking to one of the mechanics from the dealer and as it turned out it was this same guy! He had finally got over it and was able to laugh about it!
Steve, simple check...external oil inlet pipe, runs from left front of block to front of oil filter base...PLUG @ front where the inlet pipe elbow bolts onto the block. Remove the plug and use a probe to check if the gasket is open (maybe homemade screw up gasket blocking oil flow)...next use a container with enough oil to cover the suction bell (block up to hold container in place)...crank engine, oil should squirt out of the inlet pipe elbow plug hole. If you have oil next check the outlet tube (rear tube on oil filter base feeding into the oil galley)...again check for homemade gasket blocking oil flow. Next? Oil filter base...by pass valves: Both valves are facing inwards towards cylinder block, springs toward the outside?
I note that you are up in Minnesota so I know it gets cold but unless you are talking subzero temps or are running straight 40 or 50 weight oil I don't see that being a factor. And NO I'm not suggesting that you run straight 40 or 50 weight oil in a 3306. Maybe if we were talking old two stroke Detroits but that is a whole different subject!
I will check out your suggestions, no homemade gaskets though. Gasket set came with the longblock engine. Thanks
You will be ahead to inspect a few bearings, rods especially. If all OK and reassembled with lube I would follow the plan above. Decompressed, cranked a few to 10 or 15 seconds at a time until oil flows.
Steve, I wonder if your chasing a ghost. Having an engine running without pressure showing on the oil gauge makes one's skin crawl. I can imagine sitting in the seat, happy the engine started, nervously watching the pressure gauge. With that in mind, even 10 seconds would seed like an age. I'd recommend sitting and picturing when you started the engine and time it somehow-- stopwatch, secondhand, someone counting. But don't watch the time, just close your eyes and picture the engine running. Might just be that it was only 5 seconds and it was 1 second from building pressure! That's where the suggestions for prelubing came from. Assume everything's right, rculate the oil then crank it over.
Thanks a bunch!!
I might be chasing a ghost but I can't take a chance and destroy another engine. I have over $11,000 invested in the machine already not counting my own labor. I am going to take every precaution necessary to get this machine up and running! Thanks for the post...
Steve, I'm not suggesting in any way, shape, or form that you do anything that would damage the engine. No one here is suggesting that. I was just, for your sake, trying to get a realistic estimate of how many seconds the engine ran without oil pressure on the gauge and shed a bit of light on why folks were suggesting circulating the oil using any one of a half-dozen different methods. Reading into the posts, it seems to me that the consensus is that you probably didn't harm the engine (at least not much) and that there might not be anything wrong. If you pre-circulate the oil as has been suggested (choose what seems like the simplest method) until something (anything!) shows on the gauge (the needle twitches), then crank the engine without compression (pull the injectors if necessary), you should build pressure without harming the engine. If it does, then start it up. If it doesn't, THEN you chase problems. Right now, you don't really know if you have a problem or not. I'm on your side in this--not that there is a side, we're all anxious for a video of the thing running!--I'm a barnyard, backyard, when-I-have-the-time tinkerer when it comes to yellow iron. But I listen very carefully to what is said on HEF--especially to folks like Nige, tctractors, thepumpguysc, dmiller, junkyard, and I can't name everyone (sorry fellas). Steve, go to the track loader forum ( HeavyEquipmentForums ) and sort by "replies" (click on the "replies" column). Read the first two threads beginning to end (Nitelite's and boone's). I haven't rebuilt a big diesel engine such as what you've been going through--but I do have similar experience with other projects that had tens of thousands of $ on the line with the flip of a switch, so I know that feeling. It isn't fun at that point--for anyone! But it should be reassuring that you have a LOT of people reading your thread and hoping that it all turns out well. I probably wouldn't have bought my 955K without knowing this resource was available.
Steve when you pull down the rod caps make sure and look at the top bearing that's where the wear is. Good luck.
To give you all an update. I haven't had much time to work on my machine this week but, I inspected a couple rod cap bearings, top bearings, nothing scored that I could see,installed the oil pump. One thing I did see was a gasket was missing on the pump outlet connected to the engine. Put pan cover back on,,did an oil transfusion, oil started coming out of the elbow connected to the oil line up to gauge,decompressed the engine, hit the starter several times with engine decompressed, still no gauge reading pressure. Do you guys think it would be safe to put the injectors back in and crank it over?I know that I have oil pressure coming up to the top part of the block by the fuel pump. A plug was left out of the block,that is where oil was coming out. Thanks for the great ideas..
If you had a plug left out did you have any sign of leakage the first start? With oil in the riflings then you have availability and with a plug out you may not have had enough restriction to show pressure on the gauge. Did it spray or just flow?
Are you saying while cranking the engine you had oil coming out where the plug was missing? If that is the case put the plug back in and crank it over a bit longer to see if you get some oil pressure, ten seconds should be enough. I still would not put the injectors back in until you had an indication of pressure on the gauge, no need to rush things at this point!
No oil came out the first time. Second time, oil was coming out real heavy. I put a plug back in and cracked it over, fuel off,still no pressure on gauge. I am getting a new oil pressure gauge, on order. Oil coming out of the elbow, line not restricted, just no reading !!
Well I'd run up the road to NAPA and just buy a generic pressure gauge and a short hose to connect to the engine and know in a few minutes if you have pressure.
It does take awhile on my old loader to see oil pressure on the gauge after startup even as it has always had good pressure, the lag may be from a snubber/buffer in the gauge itself so it does not pulse, cheap gauges usually don't have that form of snubber/buffer.
Had it running today for a short while. Fuel injector lines need new gasket seats, leaking a little fuel!..Sounds good though. Video coming. Soon!!Oil pressure came up nicely. Thanks for all of the advice. Can't tell you how important HEF has been helping me on this project. Could not have done it without you guys,
Fuel Injection Lines do not have replaceable gasket seats! Sorry The rubber-steel o-ring is a dirt-dust seal. You can try seating each line by removing the nozzle adapter and using valve grinding compound. WARNING careful not to contaminant the line fuel delivery orifice or nozzle adapter bore. Tighten the nozzle retaining nut to 100-110lbs ft, required for the nozzle to work to specification!
Usually just cleaning very well and setting the lines to tight while wiggling them to center and seat does the trick.
Hello everyone, I need a little help. I have my d6c caterpillar engine running, and it's running great. My problem is, I cannot get the machine to go forward or reverse. There is a switch under the seat connected to the forward reverse lever. Previous owner has a wire running from the switch to the rear lights. My manual shows nothing about this switch. My question is, does this switch need electrical power for the forward reverse to work?The universal turns, but slowly. Is this normal for the universal joint to turn slow?Everything went back together without a hitch. Your response is greatly appreciated!!
That switch will be for a reversing alarm and no, you don't need any electrical power to make it go. The drive shaft should be spinning at engine speed in neutral. Have you checked the tranny oil level?
Remember when the torque converter fell apart when you removed the engine... Time to take it out again and have the seals replaced.
Or did you forget to tighten the clamps on the suction line to the pump? Like Cmark askes, is the drive shaft between the converter and transmission spinning while engine is running with transmission in neutral? You didn't put a rag or plug in one of the lines from the transmission to the pump on the back of the engine and forgot to remove it did you?
Transmission oil level is at the add mark.I will add some, see if that helps. No rag plugs left in oil passages, drive shaft turns much slower than the engine speed!Will the planetary gears on torque converter slow drive shaft speed?
With the engine running and transmission in neutral, drive shaft is turning, but a lot slower than the engine speed!!
Should be engine rpm.
Definitely not engine speed! Driveshaft turning transmission shaft, should at least move the machine, correct?THANKS for your response!!
Engine turns the torque converter/divider which turns the driveshaft which turns the transmission. In neutral the driveshaft should spin at +- engine RPM and stop when you put it into gear, then as you increase RPM and the machine begins to move, the driveshaft will turn in relation to the ground speed of the tractor.
My own AC also is Power Shift, as noted with engine running in N the drive shaft spins engine speed, stops solid when drop into gear to return to moving as the tractor moves.
We need to be aware that this scenario also depends on the particular power train configuration. On some tractors the TQ is internally coupled to the transmission and the external drive shaft joins the transmission to the bevel gears. In this case the behaviour of the drive shaft will be different.
Thanks for your response. I had the hydraulic pump discharge tube disconnected while running the engine to watch for leaks, could there be an airlock in the tube going to the converter?The blade up and down hydraulic works great though!
Oh my.... First thing I would do is GET A SERVICE BOOK! OEM cat, yes it's $500 what have you messed up and what has it cost you allready. In there you will see all kinds of information that will confuse you. The book will show every test port location and the speced pressure along with how the oil system in your powertrain works. Then you can repair whatever you messed up.
If a handful of us drank one less beer tonight we could pool our money and get a manual off EBAY and send it up to him! Can't be too bad off EBAY for one. Ah well it's entertainment of some fashion I suppose. Junkyard
Cmark,I think you were spot on on the transmission oil level. I checked the oil level after installed engine and torque converter, transmission oil level was just above the add mark. Started the engine, noticed the drive shaft turning much slower than the engine rotation, shut her down again and checked transmission oil level, was not showing any oil on the dipstick. Then a added 25 gallons of transmission oil, started the engine back up and transmission is now working great. My question is, why would transmission take so much oil when oil level prior to startup was just above the add mark?THANKS
I have to wait for a hydraulic line to be made before I can start it up again. Next week sometime!
only 25 gallons low???? didnt you keep track of what you did on this machine? like when draining or servicing the various fluids, did you write down anything to keep track of what was where and how much came out or should be in it?.. like others have stated before a good service manual is worth its weight in gold....but good to hear its minor mistakes that have held up your project and soon you will be dozing away...and not the snoring type..lol
Sorry, I didn't write down the fluid levels. It is a new machine, for me. I will do a better job of tracking the oil level!
I keep a notebook on each machine I have and write down every time I do a service or change a part or filter and all the numbers and fluid amounts each time, this way if something changes I can see it and look for a problem or use it as reference for problem solving...very cheap todo and you be amazed what we forget if we dont write it down..
Thanks, that is a great suggestion. I will be sure to do that from now on.
This sounds strange to me as when I checked SIS to see what the capacity of the transmission was it says 24 gallons! I'll admit I did not do a lot of dozer work in my 45 years, mostly front end loaders and haul trucks, but if you put 25 gallons in a 24 gallon system to get it to the full mark........ At the very minimum I would say you are in serious need of an Operators/Maintenance Manual.
It is very strange.Thinking that the torque converter was flooded,I drained the converter case, two gallons came out. I thought more would come out, but didn't! I am going to fire up again next week, fill the transmission back to full mark, then see what happens. Thanks
KSH, does this machine trans feed pump feed the converter? If the converter was dead empty fresh start and is fed from the trans supply then it could have taken so much oil. Usually once filled the converters were not drained where I worked, a trans service came due we drained the trans sump, swapped filters or cleaned strainers and refilled, the 25 gal could be a drain and refill quantity just for the trans.
Well as I noted above vast majority of my experience was in other than track equipment. Yes that 24 gallons listed in the chart in SIS is the refill capacity, but I would not expect much more than a couple gallons would be staying in the converter. Just looking at the size of the housing if the scavenger pump had failed I would think the most I would see fitting in there to be about 5 gallons. As I recall if you do remove the strainer that is in the bottom of the converter housing that would drain any oil out of the main converter housing, then all that would be left inside would be inside the rotating housing of the converter, maybe a gallon or so.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks he needs a manual- you guys are his instant online manual/mechanic on call 24 hour internet system. Steve- I admire your stick-to-it-iv-ness, in the face of having absolutely no idea what your doing. Just from my own experience- I don't mind doing what I'm capable of, but sometimes, paying someone who knows what they're doing for 10-20 hours, is the best $ you can spend. Everyone else posting in this thread- Honestly- you guys are amazing- you guys have held his hand through ups and downs and all the possible questions, and steve owes each and every one of you a steak dinner when he comes across any one of you. You guys are the best.
If you had a operators manual you would know to check transmission oil with the motor running ACE.Buy some books. Good luck Bob
Made anymore progress on this? Figured you would have the new paint on it by now.
Had to replace a couple hydraulic lines was that developed leaks with the removal of the torque converter, got that done, did some pushing dirt yesterday, everything was working great .engine running great, started to lose power slowly ,noticed fuel leak on one of the injector lines coming from fuel pump,tightened that up, but still have the same problem. It wants to run when cold, power down when warms up. I have to do some troubleshooting, maybe timing is off a little. Thanks for checking in!
May also need check for restrictions in fuel lines from tank or in tank as to power loss. Timing should not change effect between cold/hot engine. Is it actually dropping RPM or just slowing down as to pushing at same rpm?
You can hear the engine losing rpms,like it is not getting enough fuel. IT shut off on me yesterday, but started back up again. I will check for fuel restrictions, but don't think that is a problem .Could dirty injectors be causing this?,Thanks for the suggestions DMiller!
Dirty nozzles would show up right off of start. These are not like gas engines, the injection pump either sends fuel or doesn't, positive displacement and unless the flow is restricted to feed the pump the engine should run at speed.
Could find no restrictions of fuel from line to the tank As I was watching for leaks at the head, I noticed air, fuel leak at #4 cylinder, pulled injector out and found that nozzle was not tight on the base. I tightened that up,no more leak there. Was not firing on all cylinders, located #6 cylinder as the one not firing smoothly, pulled injector out and, cleaned it up, blew air backwards through the nozzle, put it back in but still is misfiring on just that one cylinder. I am going to try a new injector, see if that helps. Any thoughts on why yesterday the engine shut off on me??I Had it running today for a short while, about 10 minutes.Thanks
I'm going to bet your filters are getting clogged with algae . How old is the fuel? Was the tank ever cleaned out?
oh my...
No, tank was not cleaned out. I just added 25 gallons, topped it off. That could be the problem, just didn't think of it..I got the machine last summer, who knows how long that fuel had been sitting in the tank. Tank was full when I brought it home!!
What was the fuel pressure gauge reading ?
Very good question, one that someone who had an idea of what they were doing would check as soon as the engine seemed to loose some power. If there is a suspected problem with the nozzle/injector on #6 just swap it with say #1 and see if the "problem" follows the nozzle/injector. Not knowing the condition or age of what is in the tank is not a good sign.
This does not sound right! You were able to blow air through the nozzle?
Fuel pressure gauge was reading full fuel pressure!I will try swapping the injector nozzles,that is a great idea. Should you replace all the nozzles, or can you just replace the one misfiring?
I am thinking that I will drain the tank, clean it out, start with new clean fuel, new fuel filter. I have never heard of slime in fuel tank, but then again, what do I know!!
Oh my! x2
You shouldn't be able to blow air thru the nozzle.......like kshansen said swap nozzle to another cylinder and see if problem misfire follows. Algae does grow in diesel somehow, many of our machines have had algae issues. I have also had fuel caps not venting cause similar problems. Would run perfect for a while until the tank got enough vacuum that lift pump couldn't pull fuel anymore, then engine would stall until vacuum lifted and system was primed again....
Thanks for the response. This is a learning process for me. I will check the vent on the fuel cap also.
did you invest in a set of manuals for the machine yet? most of the trouble shooting , adjustments and info you ask would be at your fingertips..I have whatever manuals I can buy for each machine and piece of equipment I have...the $$ spent on manuals will save you 10x that amount if they keep you from making a costly mistake than just keep going on what you think is the right way togo.. then after you read the manual, you can ask better and more defined questions here..this is from another tinkerer of machines and equipment..
Well here is just a quick link to some info for your reading pleasure: https://www.bellperformance.com/bell-performs-blog/recognizing-diesel-fuel-algae And this: http://powerservice.com/psp_product/bio-kleen-diesel-fuel-biocide/
Interesting article!I cleaned out the vent on the fuel cap, It was pretty dirty. I am replacing the track adjuster, will not keep track tight!
with the introduction of biodiesel has brought this problem up much more, also the reduction of sulfur in regular diesel.... Did You Know? Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) fuel has more problems with microbial contamination than previous higher sulfur fuels. Since ULSD can no longer carry water dissolved in solution, more water is shedding to the bottom of fuel tanks, creating a life-support system and breeding ground for microbes. Parrafin content has increased as sulfur and aromatics decrease, providing a major food source to microbes. Additionally, sulfur is a natural poison to bacteria and fungus and its reduction has further exacerbated microbial contamination problems in ULSD.
Everything working A-Ok now?
I am going to try resetting the fuel pump timing. IT starts fine,runs but is misfiring on one cylinder.,tired exchanging injector nozzles #1and#6,No change, still is misfiring, took off the valve cover, reset intake valve setting, they were all a little tight. The engine starts fine ,runs ,but smokes more than what it should, back the throttle off and the engine shuts off. I might have to do what I have been avoiding all this time, take it to Ziegler caterpillar and let them figure it out. I will recheck the fuel pump timing first. This week was a bad one, my brother who farms with me and another brother, was killed when his Honda 4 wheeler hit a washout he didn't see and rolled over, pinning him under. I only mention this to warn others about the dangers of using these machines. Be very careful!
Sorry to hear that, lost my brother the same way. As far as the dozer goes I think there's more to the issue than timing. Only one cylinder being affected kind of eliminates that. Could have a pump issue, maybe a bad line from pump to nozzle, several things it could be. Smokes more than it should? Black? Gray? White? Any chance of a video so we can help diagnose?
Ya, I will try to make a video of it running and post it. Thanks
Mostly grey smoke!
Sorry to hear on the brother, four wheelers have their place yet can be a problem. As to the machine, grey smoke indicates fuel burned offtime, white unburned fuel and black excessive burning fuel.
You say it is misfiring on one cylinder, do you know which one? Or are you just just guessing based on the sound? As Junkyard says timing problem would not cause one cylinder to misfire! You say you swapped #1 and #6 nozzles, why those two? Have you tried cracking open one line at a time on the pump to try to determine which cylinder might be misfiring?
I disconnect the fuel line at the injector while running the engine. The engine runs normal on all cylinders except #6.No drop on rpm on the other cylinders that I can see. Fuel is coming through the fuel line, good flow. No particular reason for swapping #1and #6,just the most convenient.
Sorry for your loss Steve. We had the same thing happen to a county commissioner a few years ago. I bought a Honda rancher a couple years ago to check cows with and get to places the mule won't go. Really didn't think I would use it much but when I looked yesterday it had 2,005 miles on it. Definitely more dangerous than a mule or ranger but hard to get by without one. I had a cow knock me off it last year so I take it a little easier on it now. You will get the dozer figured out. Sure be nice if y'all had an Equipment mechanic that did side jobs like Junkyard or pumpguysc that could come look at it for a few hours. Around here dealerships are too high to call out.
Thanks for your concern. IT wasn't a great week for all of the family last week. I will post a video of the machine running sometime this week .other than that, I am stumped on this machine IT starts good, runs, but is missing firing on one cylinder, after running it for awhile, warming the engine, try to idle it down,it shuts itself off.Like I said, I am stumped!!
Steve ; I am really sorry about your brother's tragic accident. I ran three different D6C's that had engines die after cutting the throttle back from wide open to half or less. I actually had to use ether very carefully to get them running again. The mechanics did everything to get a good flow of clean the fuel to the ip and to no avail. After they worked on the first one they determined it was an injector pump problem. It was sent to Patton tractor and came back, was reinstalled and the darn thing ran like new ! When the same symptoms appeared in the second, a different one several months later they simply came and checked the fuel flow to the ip, and again sent the pump to Patton. Third dozer was a repeat of the first two. So even though a pump has supposedly been repaired that doesn't mean it isn't malfunctioning again.
Thanks so much The fuel pump is a transplant from the original machine, it was working properly when I started to have all the problems with the oil pump going bad and ultimately destroyed the engine, not saying that something couldn't have gotten out of adjustment in the transfer. Just don't think that it is likely, being it was working properly before.Video might help diagnose. Thanks again!
First, sorry to hear about your brother, its never good to lose someone, I have had a few people I know decease in that way,always keep his memory in your mind and no matter how bad things get during the day or on a project, this will keep it in perspective..........one would think it should work because it did before, all it takes is one little piece if dirt clogging a hole or passageway after you took off and reinstalled it...many times just moving something around stirs up something that causes trouble..dont overlook anything....but you just got good advice on how 3 dozers didnt work and the fuel pump was the issue on all 3 and you quickly dismissed it..so how long and how much would it be to pull the pump and send it out to get tested or rebuilt? Im not bashing you, but you have gotten really good advice that if you had to pay would cost you some $$$, and its not what you want to hear so you keep asking or looking for other issues...reminds me of a friend I had, he would ask 50 people till he got the answer he wanted and dismiss the other 49 people that said the same thing but not what he wanted to hear...and for the people giving the advice its almost like a slap in their face..just my opinion..if I dont know I will listen hard to those that most likley have the knowledge to help you out and get your dozer running again..
wrong post for thread..deleted..
You are totally correct. My apology is requested!
Hi Steve, I must be reading this post wrong, to me this says when you crack open each injector in turn, you hear no drop in RPM on cylinders 1-5 when opening each line in turn? "No drop on rpm on the other cylinders that I can see." Cheers.
I believe he is stating runs normal on the other five when not dropping them, number 6 makes no difference fuel or not. If it has fuel delivery and not doing anything then the cylinder either has not enough compression or the injection pump is not sending enough pressure. Being as this pump came off the original dropped dead engine could be material made it to the pump or the starvation of oil affected the pump as well as these do have camshafts in them.
My gut instinct is the pump needs a little love. The more random the symptoms the more I look at the pump. The kicker for me is the machine shutting down when throttled back. If'n I were a bettin man I'd say #6 plunger and/or barrel is fubar'd. Even the cam lobe as Mr Miller suggested. Or all 3! I was up not terribly far from him a few weeks ago when I was doing my best to outfish OIH! (Can't be done by the way :-D)
Oh, I forgot to mention that as soon as those engines started to die (losing RPMs) I could yank the throttle back (wide open) and it just quit running. Do a compression test on that thing and if all is well there, then send the ip to a REAL injector pump pro PUMPGUYSC.
Sitting here over 1,000 miles away it is very difficult to try to diagnosis this kind of problem! If we are to assume the problem is in fact with number six cylinder and swapping the nozzles between number one and six did not change the problem I can only see two possibilities. First being a problem in the fuel injector pump causing improper fuel delivery to the nozzle. That could be either a problem with the plunger/barrel assembly or the cam shaft that operates it. Did some more digging and if I am seeing things in SIS correctly this looks like a sleeve metering pump, not sure if that was determined before. That may only make a minor change in what the problem might be. But no way I would feel comfortable trying to explain anything about one of those as I only had to work on one and that was a 3208, got it to run fine without a book or pulling pump but that was years ago. If it is proven that the pump is NOT the problem then the problem would seem to be in the cylinder and anything directly related to it. Like piston, valves, cam, lifters and rocker arms. I might lean towards finding someone who could do at least a quick compression test to prove most of those things are functioning proper. Even before doing that it might tell you something to just compare the movement of the valves and rocker arms to say those on number five cylinder. Sad thing is there are several people here who if they could see and touch this engine in person it would have be back to work months ago.
What lake did you fish ?We just got back from the boundary waters .We had a great time!!
Sturgeon lake just outside of town where he lives in Moose Lake. I did a high adventure trip on the boundary waters in scouts years ago. I think we carried those damn canoes as much as we paddled them!
Sure is beautiful up there though!We try to go up there every year. Catch any walleyes??
Those sleeve metering pumps are really sensitive to trash or water in the fuel and there's a constant bleed valve that will give trouble too, but wouldn't make it miss on just one cylinder. If it's been isolated to #6 though by eliminating compression problems, I'd think it'd be the injector pump problem. The fuel line going to the injector is not leaking is it? I think I'd take the line off and blow compressed air through it to make sure a piece of trash didn't get in there when it was in pieces.
Kshansen,Can anything be gained from a video of the machine running and showing everyone just how it runs and sounds?I can pull the pump and have it serviced, if it needs servicing,or should I have a caterpillar service tech come out and put pressure gauges on and stop wasting time?I very much respect your opinion along with others who have given advice.Thanks so much!!
No,there are no leaks in the fuel line. I disconnected the line up top where it goes in the nozzle while running the engine, seems to be a good flow of fuel coming through the fuel line, but I have no way to check fuel pressure on that cylinder as compared to the others that are NOT misfiring..
We caught one or two. Mostly crappie and they were good eatin!
Glad you had a great time. Nothing like shorelunch fresh caught fish. Minnesota is a beautiful state
It is. There are times I miss living up there. Then it gets cold....
My 2 cents, DO NOT take the pump to Ziegler! They don't have anyone that knows how to work on those pumps anymore. The diesel shop in Mankato still does well with them.
What is the name of the company in Mankato?
Here is the sleeve metering fuel system in detail.
Diesel services I believe.
https://goo.gl/photos/FsdRY61rRRSzc7Ss7 Some videos of d6c caterpillar.
https://goo.gl/photos/8cdQuiZus41HbGqXA
Oh my.....Where to begin? Just don't run it any more, it's toast. Enough blowby there to suffocate an Elephant, hardly any oil pressure, and for some reason your amp gauge is showing what looks to be about a 20amp discharge when it should be throwing a charge, (not that that is a part of the main problem).
Have to agree that the fumes coming out of that breather pipe scare me. Oil pressure, I would want to install a know good oil pressure gauge to see actual pressure. The 20 amp discharge "could" be someone hooked a gauge up wrong but is not my first thing to check out.
I cannot add to the above. Would scare the hell out of me. I see a possible set of broken rings, a dead cylinder, if has new rings the gaps are aligned or they broke them on install, the lack of oil pressure alone that engine would be coming out as there is something seriously wrong where if run much longer will be another pile of scrap iron. KS, these Pos or Neg ground, I cannot remember? Could be just set up incorrect to the prescribed ground as the starter does not care.
Two things. He might have the amp gauge wires reversed. The blowby looks like steam might be water boiling out. Can't tell with out being there.
Still would explain a dead hole or severe miss plus indicates he is destroying what he just installed by screwing with it ever steadily. Driving it around will not fix this, pulling that engine back out and finding the problem will.
Can not recall Cat ever using Positive ground on any thing. At least none of the 1960's up machines I worked on!
I did not think so but had to check. AC was almost always + grd, as were the older Deeres and a few of the oddball construction series machines.
The saga continues..... Was this a fresh motor or a takeout of unknown condition? I don't recall and don't want to rehash the drama by reading back through things :-/ It's definitely unhappy. Options for said unhappy are almost indefinite. Need to verify oil pressure with accurate gauge first. Second would be a compression test to see what's up there, or down as the case might be. Are all the valves set correctly? Perhaps he's fortunate enough the miss is a poorly adjusted cylinder. (Optimistic I know....) Man I don't even know where to go next....Houston we have a problem.
I have been reading from the beginning, this is an engine the OP rebuilt himself and installed himself....To the OP, ive been routing for you the whole way, but I think its time you bite the bullet and send that machine to a qualified dealer or mechanic to take a look, you have invested a large amount of money and I understand the " I want to do it myself, im the same way" but its time to admit your over your head, I have had that privilege several times, I cut my loses and took my lumps..now its your turn, we all are in that position one time or another, and it doesnt make you any lesser of a person if you do...
No it's a long block he purchased. I still say that smoke is to white to be just plain blowby
I coulda missed that one some where back there...sometimes the threads join together.....
All the blow by indicated damaged rings! That is not being caused by a missing firing injector, unless the engine oil is totally thinned out with diesel fuel. OP can do leak down test or dissemble and repair!
This is when you find out how good the warranty is from the engine builder.
I'm thinking somthing broke in there. Can't get that much smoke out the blow by hose with out a problem. What a bummer.
Maybe blown piston on one hole if he is lucky.
Really sucks!!
That engine is out of time. That's why the throttle is not acting right and has no power. Do you hear that detonating sound? I don't know how long it has run but that can cause the pistons to gall and seize or burn up a piston. Of course, that's going to ruin the rings if the cylinders are galled and that could explain the extreme blowby. The galling can also be caused by lack of lubrication...and the oil pressure on the gauge doesn't look good. I'm pulling for you buddy. Wish you were closer where I could lend a hand. Were it me, first thing I would do is to pull the head and have a look. It's definitely damaged inside.
My hearing is not that good to tell that but I know for a fact a 3306 will start and run if the pump is 180º out of time. Yea we did it as an "experiment" to prove it could be done, That's My Story And I'm Sticking To It! Just don't ask Norm, he might tell the story a bit different!
Do a leakdown test before you pull the head, then you will know where to look.
They will run out of time won't they Ken? From the looks of the blowby tube, it's narrowed down to all 6 cylinders.
Okay OP sure could use a service manual! Pictures with simple instructions!
I think that was suggested back before Christmas 2016.
Update?
We may have torqued his nuts a bit over the last posts he pushed.
To give you guys an update. I had Ziegler caterpillar come out and pick up the machine. I am hoping it is not too bad!I used some either on it at first startup, maybe a blown head gasket. Will have to wait and see. Thanks for asking.
Any news from big yellow?
The service manager called last week, said they got the machine in the shop.The mechanic working on it said it was pushing out a lot of exhaust out the breather tube, said that it probably is a scored cylinder on #6cylinder. They couldn't get it to fire on #6cylinder. Haven't heard back from them yet this week. I will give updates when I find out more.
I checked out the warranty on the long block 3306 from Capital Remand and Exchange, they will warranty the engine but,I would have to take the engine out, put it on a pallet and send it to off to Denver where they could do a thorough inspection, all at my expense. They have not answered my last email. I will update!!
That warranty sounds like it is worth just the cost of the paper you print that email out on! They won't take to word of the Cat dealer? One would think that they would at least offer to supply a new cylinder kit and gaskets needed to do the work.
you should get a written report from CAT on what is wrong and what may have caused the damage to the lining, ill bet the rebuilder blames you in the end..... just for argument sake at this point, what would the cost have been to bring it from the beginning to cat or another reputable mechanic to have the same job done? this way any issues like this would not be your problem, you would have gotten back a good running machine...and what has your cost been so far? time and aggravation and no use of the machine?....sometimes going what we think the cheaper way doesnt work out that way in the end..many have been down this road before...
NOV.13 2016..first post. & still at it..
That can't be good....
First start should have been on its own, no need of ether.
So here is what has transpired over the last week. Service tech at Caterpillar pulled the head off my machine and found a piston melted,one other starting to go,two scored cylinders and a valve chipped. They recommend complete cylinder pack,exchange head,core charge, new main and rod bearings and rocker assembly. They originally thought that the engine was overfueling, washing the cylinder walls from the oil that was lubricating them.They did a drip test on the fuel pump, found that it was within two degrees of being in time,which is within tolerance.They then noticed that the rocker assembly is not the correct one for the 3306 caterpillar engine long block I got from Capital Exchange, I used the rocker assembly from engine that went bad on me, which has a 5/16th hole on one end drilled .Oil was shooting up like a fountain, lubricating the top end but starving the cylinders and pistons from getting oil.Capiial said that they will help with new parts, but caterpillar will not warranty the machine if I don't use their parts. Another thing that they found was aluminum pistons. Caterpillar is not recommending using aluminum pistons. Do you guys have a problem with aluminum pistons? Right now, I just don't know if I want to more money into it than it is worth. There is one coming up for sale, no reserve auction a D5,owner said it is in great condition, undercarriage 95% ,all new rollers,engine totally overhauled 3 years ago, has been sitting in the shed most of the time. Something I have to consider. I am posting some pictures of the engine View attachment 173345 View attachment 173345
Damn. I am surprised it was in time but the lube thing makes sense. Don't give up on it now. You know what's wrong with it. I'd ask Capital what they would allow toward Cat's parts bill and go on with Cat parts and get Capital to pay their allowance and pull the rest outta your pocket so that Cat would warranty the engine work. Looks like you have a good machine to put it back into. Then go buy some lottery tickets. I've been there man, don't feel like the Lone Ranger.
Thanks for the encouragement d9,I really need support.Thanks again!!
I'd be going after this Capital Exchange place for full warrantee on what you paid them. If they don't even know they're using the wrong parts, they can't be very competent. Fix this machine, despite what someone is saying about their machine that's for sale. Nobody trying to sell a machine is going to tell anything wrong with it.
IF CAT fixes it, it has a CAT WARRANTY.. don't get caught up in buying another machine by say-so..& NO WARRANTY..
I believe this is the problem, the block was fine, right?
A few questions I have, what kind of pistons are they suggesting? I don't recall Cat using anything other than aluminum in anything I worked on in over 40 years. The only engines I recall working on that had cast iron pistons were Detroits! Not sure about the pistons in the pictures, they look like they are flat tops or is that just the way the shadow makes them look? Not understanding how lack of lubrication caused a chipped valve. Is that head with the bad valve one that was on the "new" engine or is it the one off your original engine? How many hours did this engine run to get the parts to look that bad? While the "leak" from the rocker might not have been a good thing I'm not seeing how it would stop the pistons and cylinders from getting oil. They should be getting oil on them from below not from the rocker arms! Did this engine have oil pressure when started? As from the start of this "project" I don't think we are getting the full story at many points resulting in all kinds of confusion. Of all the various Diesel engines I worked on in over 40 years of doing this kind of work the 3306 is the simplest engine to work on. Heck I've had more problems dealing with a 6 hp Tecumseh engine on a snowblower or a little Homelite chain saw!
The block is not the problem, at least I don't think so.I will have to get a clarification from Ziegler caterpillar on Monday. Just what service manager told me. He noticed that the engine had aluminum pistons. I will ask him tomorrow if they use something different. The way he explained the problem was that rocker assembly is wrong for that block .He first asked me how Capital matched the engine with my first engine, I told them by serial number and arrangement number. They said rocker assembly isn't the right assembly for this engine block. They said chipped valve came from excessive heat and minimal lubrication. He said oil was flowing like a fountain through the hole in the rocker assembly therefore bottom end was not getting enough oil to lubricate pistons and cylinder walls.The engine only has at most hour and a half.
I should clarify. I think he should go after Capital Exchange to get as much as possible of his money back or new Cat parts because it's clear they don't know what they are doing. I also think there's some aspects of the story being left out like how much ether was used on start up? If it wasn't primed properly and perhaps sprayed directly into the intake might have mostly went to the bad cylinder(s). Wouldn't ether wash down the cylinders too and cause excessive heat? I thought they all used some type of aluminum piston too. Could they maybe mean forged aluminum pistons vs standard aluminum pistons? What brand were the pistons? If it's the same Capital Reman Exchange I saw online, they can supply original Cat parts. If they'll cover parts on warrantee get OEM Cat from them and then the Cat dealer can still warrantee their work.
I find it hard to believe with maybe 1 1/2 hours running the possible lack of oil to the bottom end from a leak in the rocker shaft that one would see this kind of damage. I mean if that was 1 1/2 hours running under full load like on a dyno maybe. But unless someone was crazy enough to put a new engine under load without checking oil pressure and letting it get up to full operating temperature most of that 1 1/2 hours running would be at low to no load. Going by the information I have seen, and that may be somewhat suspect, this is a load of rubbish! Excessive heat and lack of lubrication chipping a valve in 1 1/2 hours? I've seen many of these engines that were totally abused for hours and weeks that kept running! I know of one that when first rebuilt it was put on a dyno at the dealer and the oil gauge fitting was not hooked up because mechanic used a port on the other side of engine to install a gauge. It was started and ran long enough to fill the mechanics tool box with oil before being noticed. Once that was noticed he plugged the port and then did a full dyno test on the engine and it past with flying colors and it then went on to be a good running engine for years! So I have serious doubts that a missing plug or whatever in the rockers could "starve" the bottom end for oil to cause a major failure in 1 1/2 hours of easy running. Just look at the picture of the piston, there is major amount of metal missing above the top ring land yet the lower part of the skirt shows no sign of scuffing. If the problem stated as lack of bottom end lubrication there would be major smearing down low not just up by the oil ring. I'd love to cut open the oil filter on this one and see all the crap that might be in there.
shlt happens...look at it this way...its only money...yeah it sucks to spend more but thats life, we all have issues like this no matter if its on a house, car , equipment, livestock and so on..its not even close to the end of the world..you have your health and you get up every morning on your own , able to feed yourself and take a dump and not have some bag connected to you..so in the big picture of life, this is just a speed bump for you..me personally would go with whatever CAT recommends to fix and repair the engine with a warranty, also since the machine is there, spend a few more bucks and let them give the machine a good once through to find and fix any other issues, or at least have them tell you what else is wrong and what really needs to be fixed for overall health of the machine..then with all your documentation goto the engine re builder and demand reimbursement for the short block and threaten legal action to cover the rest of the costs that the bad short block caused, such as having to now have a CAT dealer fix the issues..you may or may not get any satisfaction from them, then its your choice to follow through with court ..do yourself a favor and find out the limits in your state for small claims court , in my state its $5000.00 before you need a lawyer, just your filing court papers may convince them to settle before a judgement is placed against them..again its your choice to go that route..just for argument sake, whats the bill from CAT going to be?..and forget about buying any other machine that someone says runs good, as others stated a seller isnt going to tell you it doesnt run good, and now your further in a hole with another broken machine...good luck with whatever way you choose..dont let this drag you down..look at it as an education and education costs...dont let it cost you with an ulcer or other health problems....
I still think that the thing was out of time which galled the pistons and melted them which left bits of metal in the cylinder which got caught in the valve and slammed into the head when the piston came up which chipped the valve. Looking at the pics, starting fluid would be suspect. The pistons in the pics look like one that's been severely over fueled for a while now that kshansen points to, so can't figure that out. The video sounded like timing. These are all guesses on my part. Failure analysis from a non-expert. It gets curiouser and curiouser.
Hobbytime,It was a longblock, by the way. It came with head attached. I transferred from my other engine, the rocker assembly, oil pump, pan,pulleys ,mounting brackets and rocker cover. Just what they told me at caterpillar, the engine wasn't getting enough oil to lubricate pistons and cylinder walls.What he said made sense because when I took off the valve cover to check valve lifters setting, I started and ran the engine and saw oil coming up like a fountain, I shut the engine down but that just didn't seem right..I adjusted the settings a little and put cover back on. Then made the video and took it up to Ziegler caterpillar. That's my story.
I have read the thread from the beginning, but if you got bad info from the builder and that caused failure or the assembly they sold you was defective..you deserve your money back..if you feel it was your error that caused this failure ..then so be it...its all water under the bridge...now move on and get that baby running and working, and in short time this will all be a bad memory..
Yah,I agree. I have work to do!
Geez, what a mess. The piston looks like a detonation failure, usually caused by improper timing.
Caterpillar service tech checked it out. Timing of the engine is within two degrees of being in perfect timing.I was thinking along those lines too. They did a drip test and found that it was not overfueling. That is what they originally thought caused the piston to melt.
..then with all your documentation goto the engine re builder and demand reimbursement for the short block and threaten legal action to cover the rest of the costs that the bad short block caused, such as having to now have a CAT dealer fix the issues..you may or may not get any satisfaction from them, then its your choice to follow through with court ..do yourself a favor and find out the limits in your state for small claims court , in my state its $5000.00 before you need a lawyer, just your filing court papers may convince them to settle before a judgement is placed against them..again its your choice to go that route.. Just looked up small claims limit in Minnesota. It is $15,000.00. I was surprised it is that high. Its legal name is :conciliation court" here"
Still curious how much ether was used to get it started?
Also firing order and which other piston has the 2nd most damage after no6?
#4 is scored pretty bad !I know the danger of using too much ether.
I guess I'm going to be the bad guy, and say that I don't think the engine rebuilder is at fault. Steve installed the rocker that ziegler says is causing the oiling problem The engine rebuilder never saw that piece. All they can go by is arrangement #. I don't see how they could be liable for parts they never saw. We don't know if the old rocker was original to the machine, or from a rebuild with a different style head sometime in the past. A guy who works on those engines all the time would notice it, but I myself wouldn't know the difference. Steve did the timing and installed the oil pump, and in this thread he recounts his issues with oil pressure, and not being sure he was getting oil pressure after reassembly. He's the one that used ether on it to get it going. He's the one driving it around, in the video he posted, with it running so poorly. He took the dozer out and pushed dirt with it (according to his posts), and tells of injectors being loose, and seemed to be missing/ low power. I don't think the issue then was the injector- it could be the poor oiling, and from the scoring on the cylinder walls, I doubt he was getting good compression. If he was out pushing dirt for a hour with no oil pressure, or just poor oiling, I could see his scoring, probably the valve chipped is from a piece of a ring getting trapped under it, causing it not to close all the way, letting the piston hit it. None of that can I really lay at the rebuilder's feet. They installed sleeves and pistons and bearings, to spec in a block, but I don't see how what they rebuilt, caused steve's issues. It stinks and I feel for you steve, but I don't think that this can really be laid at the rebuilders feet.
Crane operator, you make some very good points, some of the details you mentioned I had forgotten in this long thread. These kind of problems are why I never liked doing "half" a job, whether it was the first or last half. When there is a problem you always get into the blame question. Did not even like rebuilding an engine or other component then sending it off to have someone you never knew install it.
All they have to do is track that rocker assembly back to see if it goes with the arrangement number that was given.
I have to say that I agree with all of the above. If I am at fault then I couldn't expect someone else to have to pay for it. Not being a trained mechanic, I have made some BIG mistakes. Capital is empathetic to my situation and have offered to cover the costs involved for the parts, which says A LOT about their company. I didn't realize there are different rocker assembly rearrangements.The engine that I ordered was supposed to be the same serial number and arrangement number of my first engine. I guess that if both engines are of the same serial and arrangement number, why wouldn't transferring the rocker assembly from first engine to second work?
Perhaps the rebuilder should have noticed a difference if they do a lot of Cat engines? Who knows what someone in the past had done to the engine?
About that engine failure and melted piston.... I'm one of those folks who sees a puzzle and can't let it rest till I see how it works out. And Steve, you have a puzzle there! But--maybe there's an explanation. Several explanations for the failure have been offered in the discussions above--such as detonation from ether, timing being off, overfueling, and lack of lubrication. The clues: one piston is melted at the top, but looks almost fine at the bottom and other pistons were starting to go that way; a valve is chipped and it looks like there's been a torch working on the head at the chip; it was started with ether; and the Cat dealer says timing is OK. If it was a timing issue, wouldn't it have effected multiple cylinders more evenly? So let's rule out timing for now. If ether was the problem, why would one cylinder be bad, other's good, and some starting to go? I don't buy it, so ignore ether for now, too. If the bottom end was starved for lubrication, why would the bottom half of the melted piston look fine while the top is melted? And just how would that lead to a melted piston? I don't buy the lack of lubrication. That leaves overfueling.... Question for you mechanics--what happens if you pour oil into a diesel cylinder? To my recollection, it burns. I'm thinking that the excessive oiling of the top end led to oil getting into the cylinder(s) and leading to it burning hot--way hot. I've had a couple of gas powered engines that did the same thing--but being gas they just smoked like crazy. But--for that much oil to be getting past the valves implies there might have been an issue with the head to begin with. I'm not a mechanic, so that's for someone else to determine....
I think if too much ether was sprayed directly into the intake could be drawn to certain cylinders more than others. Basically it takes the path of least resistance with the intake valve open. Steve doesn't seem to want to mention how much ether he used. Maybe it's a combination of things. I think get what you can from the rebuilder and let Cat repair it.
During engine assembly during overhauls we would dip pistons in oil just prior to placing a ring compressor on, would be dripping as installed with some puddling in the piston cup, would wipe most out but a lot stayed in. Injectors on the old Cummins also dipped in oil just prior to install so O-rings would slip in easier, most of which went to cylinder. Generally either massive overfuel or water/coolant intro during combustion is about the only way pistons will cook down as these did.
Just took another look at the picture of the piston, it's not very clear but there appears to be major amount of material above the top ring missing. I have seen pistons that looked that bad before but they were always from engines with thousands of hours running time. For the life of me I can not see how this piston could get that bad in only an hour or so running. I would be interested in knowing where that piston came from, who made it? While I don't suggest using either on a new engine I find it hard to believe that a one time overdose of starting fluid should cause such damage. If the outfit who sold the long block is willing to foot the bill for parts I would have the Cat dealer do the job. Hopefully they have someone old enough to be familiar with this engine, not that it is that complicated but they don't try to make it seem that way.
Yes,I am going to have Caterpillar do the engine. It will come with a warranty. I am in agreement with cavinjim,on oil overload to the head. Especially if valve guides are worn allowing oil to pass through into combustion chamber. I am not sure what kind of conditions that head was in.
Not saying this has anything to do with the failure but so far this is the only thing I can find in official writting about 3300 series rocker arm assemblies.
I dont remember since this thread has been going for awhile, but did the old engine goto the rebuilder either as a core or for proper matching for the new short block or strictly done by machine serial number? I look at the rebuilder offering up $$ in 2 ways, they are going above and beyond as a good company, or trying to limit liability knowing hey short cutted the rebuild with substandard parts... I have seen guys try and start equipment in the winter using a good amount of ether without blowing the engine, I dont know enough to comment on what the possible cause of this failure is..but as said above its a matter of putting all the pieces together..what is the overall reputation of the engine rebuilder from other customers?
I thought it was a long block. That would have included a new head. If not, that was just a short block. In that case, if I were Capital I'd want to know if that was the correct rocker assembly before paying for anything. Sounds like they're going above and beyond, without even inspecting the suspect rocker assembly.
Thanks, very interesting. I wonder how much it will cost me for the update !
So the official word from Ziegler caterpillar on the engine failure was caused by the wrong rocker assembly installed for this engine also oil pump not working properly to supply enough oil to lubricate.They are recommending a new oil pump in with the other parts.
I would be interested in their or anyone else's theory on how low oil pump supply caused the top of the piston to fail. Not having the chance to view the bearings or other parts up close makes understanding the claim of low oil pressure or volume causing the failure. Not recalling if we were ever told what the oil pressure this engine was running with. I'm sure just about everyone here would like(expect) to see oil pressure in the 50-60 psi range at anything much over low idle but according to Cat the "permissible" hot oil pressure with 30 weight oil at working speeds is only 24 psi.
May I make a suggestion ? We already lost a valued member because of this thread. It feels more like a TROLL thread.
This thread makes my head hurt. WOW. Great read though, bravo for that.
I dont know if I would blame a thread about a genuine mechanical topic for the actions of a few individuals that cant control emotional outbursts ...the thread is based about an equipment problem..if one feels the need to get personal and nasty..just dont post or block the thread...I found the thread interesting and educational, I am just a hobbiest not a professional mechanic..and it will give someone else in the same predicament insight whether to tackle a job them selves or to send it out to a professional, it shows the downside of how a project could turn out... many people look at a project as an easy fix but dont see what some of the issues that they can run into not from being stupid, but by not doing it daily for a living and knowing when something doesnt look right ..not having the proper rocker assembly ( no fault of the OP) he didnt know this, a seasoned mechanic did...in the end op will have a good working machine ..a bit more cost than estimated, but thats life, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and move on...so no this is not a troll thread..IMHO..
I agree. I've found this thread very interesting and educational.
I also agree this thread has been interesting, educational, and a little painful to read at times. I think Steve will get the dozer going and be able to laugh all this off. Sometimes things just don't go as planned.
Or at the budget planned!
I'm waiting to hear that its running also. I would go as far as to go see it in action and shake the hand of a very determined individual. The man has no quit in him, I will give him that.
I have followed this thread from the start and I must say I have never been to a rodeo like this one. Forty five years as a mechanic with five of it doing automotive machine and I have heard and read some interesting stories but this one beats them all. My hat is off to every one who tried to help, everyone here had something good to add. Truck Shop
There are several threads that should be mandatory reading for anyone considering buying anything yellow, heavy, iron, and old--especially Nitelite's and Boone's threads in Trackloaders and this one! I knew that NL and Boone's threads are the most replied threads in TLs (by a mile), but I was almost surprised to find that this thread is the most replied to in dozers! (not counting catch-all's). Steve's experience give me the willies when I think about my own machines--but then I remember that there's an army of experts here willing to help out and give advice---for free! Yes, Steve's experience could have been different save for a few decisions, but considering that I'm just as much (or more) of an "amateur" as him, I admire his (as my late father would have said) stick-too-it-tiveness and I really have to believe that he's done his best. Keep in mind all those who will learn from this thread in the future--yes, it is valuable!
Wow, this is a proper tragedy... Not sure I have ever read a thread such as this on an equipment forum.
Running yet?
Not yet. Parts are ordered and should be at Ziegler caterpillar in St Cloud next week sometime. They have to free up a tech when one is available. They said that they would let me know when that happens. Capital Exchange is going to cover the costs on the parts. This is the message that I got from Ziegler, this was also sent over to Capital
Glad to see that you have a little resolution to the problem. Keep all the paperwork on the rebuild from Ziegler for when you sell the machine, it will add a little value through the warranty to help you recover a little of your expenses.
Great idea, Thanks for the tip!
Updates?
To let you guys know what is happening. Ziegler caterpillar in St Cloud, Mn.called yesterday, said that my d6c dozer is just about done. They are waiting on a spacer plate and a couple of main bearings that are on back order. Should be up and running in about three or four days. Can't wait to see her again!Thanks for asking!
Update?
Still waiting! They sent the wrong head gasket but,it's supposed to be up and running tomorrow. Just in time to park it for the winter!!
Been a little over a year I bet you are ready to get it running. Maybe you can paint it and get the new decals on over the winter. Be like a new rig
I called Ziegler caterpillar today, they have it running, they're checking timing and should be ready to deliver tomorrow. Yes,I am ready to out it to work!!
YAAAAA. I'll bet you will be impressed with how well it starts and runs. Just enough frost to shear brush good. Good luck with it and keep us posted. Only a little over a year. I got a RD4 in the third spot in the garage that's been in there for over 4 years. Only needs about 2 days to finish up front end and see if it runs. I bought it from a fellow Antique Cat enthusiast who was dying of cancer. I just had to install the injectors and button it up. A hard one to find time for. It occasionally becomes a conversation piece between the wife and I.
As bad as that one has rooted into the ground you may have to knock the wife's garage/woman cave down to get it out!
This has been quite a roller coaster year for me. I have to be honest with everyone, I am a little gun shy about using this machine again!I just don't want to have a major problem again. Question for you guys,should I go real easy, or push this machine pretty hard??I want this machine to last awhile and want to know the best break in procedure, Thanks for all of your help. I have so much to be thankful for, You guys have helped me SO,SO much!!
Well.....first off glad there seems to be some closure, at least on the engine side of things. Did the dealer give it a once over to make sure everything else appeared ok? Have you gotten a manual for it yet? If not please do as soon as you can. Even if you have the dealer print some particulars off SIS. Fluid capacities, types, check/fill locations etc. Check every single fluid before you work it. I'd warm it up good, then work it about 75% for a couple hours watching gauges closely, listening closely etc. Jump off every so often to check for leaks. If you have an infrared thermometer shoot some temps each time you jump off to check things. If all sounds well, feels normal, no fluids leaking, temps are good then give her hell. After the first heat cycle, check all the hose clamps and bolts to make sure they're tight, make sure belt tension is good-stuff like that, double check oil level, coolant level etc. Might even double check freezing point of antifreeze. They had their hands on a lot. Your job now as you break it in is to keep an eye out in the event they overlooked something. Hell if you can reach the drain plug make sure it's tight. Good luck!
Zeigler should tell you the proper break in procedure for the rebuilt motor. Be sure to ask if they don't tell. And do a low hour oil change. 50 hours at most the first time, I do at 10 to get any chance of break in wear crap out.
Should I change the filter also?
The initial break in period is when the most particles will be caught and mixed into the oil... personally I would change the filter too.
Absolutely change it. Cut open the one you remove just to make sure there's nothing big in there or a large volume of smaller stuff indicating a potential issue.
if you want to go one step more have the oil analyzed and then again at the next normal oil change oil change to see whats going on, and get a base on whats in it, cheap insurance , you spent plenty already a little more to keep her healthy and to avoid another costly repair you can catch early and to give you some relief all is good, anytime you change fluids CHANGE the filter, anything that has a filter change when you change fluids, and keep track of the fuel filter too...last thing you want is to clog a filter and have it go into bypass or starve a pump of oil and have it go boom....if you havent changed the hydraulic fluid, I would pay to have the dealer do it and how about the finals and tranny?
Wow, what an ordeal. I hope I never go through anything like that with my D6C.
Ok,I will take all the precautionary measures that you all suggested!They are all great ideas. Everyone have a great Thanksgiving!!
Well if you do just sneak it up the road to "the falls" late some night and push it in!
The engine is done and easy. Just wait till you get into the transmission, gearcase, finals and tracks.
Think positive!!
hopefully from here forward its smooth sailing, again since it is at the dealer, let them do a once over on the machine so you get back a good working machine with all fluids and filters changed and you can start from a problem free start and get many years of good use out of it...whats done is done, so mentally forget about it and enjoy it.....have a good thanks giving yourself...
Make a habit of always looking at the ground whenever you move from being parked. I always did and saved a mans job and reputation. He had changed the oil in a new D8N I was running and didn't tighten the engine oil pan drain valve. There was a puddle of oil and a barely visible trail of oil under the dozer when I moved it.
That would be costly!!
A couple years ago I was trying to find an operator to run our dozer and was trying 2 guys out. After using both for a week or so 1st guy showed up on a Sunday and worked about 4 hrs. Apparently he blew a hydraulic hose and didn’t know it and ran the tank dry. I called and ask him what happened and he didn’t know there was a problem. I called 2nd guy to let him know dozer was down for a day and told him what happened. He got upset about not being able to work and said “every blankety blank dozer operator knows to look at the ground for oil when you’re backing up”. He got the job.
Yes, sometimes people just don't use common sense!
Have you got it broke in yet?
I ran the machine a total of one hour, wasn't running well, no power, blowing black smoke, actually shut down on me twice taking it a mile over to tree ridge removal site. Called Ziegler caterpillar in St Cloud, they sent out a mechanic, we spent most of the afternoon trying to get it started,finally gave up trying that. Last resort, he took the oil filter off,cut it apart, found metal in the filter. He thinks that the pistons are one size too large causing excessive heat, expansion of the pistons, with nowhere to move,causing the engine to fail once again!!They came out today, picked it up, back to St.Cloud. The saga continues!!
Oh man! At least they are looking after it for you. How do you put in oversize pistons?
I don't know how that could happen!The tech guy said that he has seen it happen before!!
Isn't measuring piston clearance and ring gap part of a rebuild?
I am not an expert on technical factors. I noticed the engine was running warm, not hot,warmer than what I thought was normal. I just thought it was normal for new engine, break in procedure. Tech guy said that if you install the wrong size piston in the sleeve, can cause excessive heat in the engine!!
I would think that they'd have started it and ran it for awhile before releasing it to the customer. Maybe not, but it may have prevented an "oops" moment! ("oops" in the sense that they could have caught a mistake before it ever got out of the shop!)
That is exactly what I asked the service rep.He said that they ran it for a couple of hours, but no load.They do a what is called a stall test,hold the brake under full power for awhile, said it was running great for them!!
Another case of Zeigler lawn mower mechanics failing. I wouldn't let them lube my bicycle!
A lot of places put them on a dyno and do initial break in for the customer.
AFAIK, in a 333/3306 and indeed any wet liner Cat engine, an oversize piston isn't available. If they've used genuine cylinder packs it's a plug-n-play situation.
Sounds to me they rolled a(or more) liner packing, will distort a sleeve just enough to smoke a hole but will take a bit of time. At least is on their dime this time.
Man oh man... Just more proof that the yellow store is just a warranty shop. Ran good under no load? huh... Put some weight on the engine and the recipe goes south. If you have N/A pistons in a turbo engine bad things happen. Has anybody ever set the injection pump fuel and governor to spec? Wait... don't have yellow do it. They charged me $2400 chasing a worn thrust washer in the governor. Had to send it to my usual pump shop because it still didnt work, first place they look he said. With all the pieces of piston that have been "exhausted" I'd be pulling the turbo down as well.
Will have to wait to see what they find after they tear into it again!!First thing the tech checked was fuel pump timing, which they, at the shop,advanced a little. Fuel pump timing was right on .He suspected that they might have advanced it too much which, he said, can cause overheating and eventually an engine failure! Just have to wait to find out .
Sounds like this machine needs to find some grey haired old fart to take over. A 333/3306 Cat is about the simplest engines ever built! Hardest part of rebuilding one of those would be scrapping the old gaskets off. Other than the injector pump the only thing that should be any kind of "high tech" work would be to get the liner projection right! Need to do a shout-out to Nitelite, with all the things going on in his life he did a much better job on his engine that those supposed experts at that dealer!
I cannot believe this. This is such a simple engine to work on. Oversized pistons, what!! There's your problem, the guy that said this! Keep him away. Oh well, it's under warranty. Glad you didn't need it.
I would love to see this outfit try their hands at something like a D336! Just not one myself or any friend was depending on running again! Four cams, and more gears than a pair of old Mack Quadraplex transmissions!
Hi welder Dave Can you tell me how a company can do a load test on a machine without a pto? The tractors that we have serviced at a dealership,are load tested on a dynomonitor after engine work done. Seems impossible, to me that this can be done without a pro, which my d6c doesn't have!just curious..
Not welder Dave but your machine does have a PTO. Cat usually pulls the engine to dyno them. Bob
Can they test it without pulling the engine out?
wow..at this rate you better buy a 50 pound bag of garlic to ward off them evil spirits following you around....are you sure you didnt buy that dozer from dead guy thats haunting you now...I hate to say but if you didnt have bad luck you wouldnt have any at all....hopefully this time its all on the dealer and not a nickle from you...
Reminds me of a song on the old show HEEHAA,sung by Roy Clark and Buck Owens. Gioom,despair and agony on me, ha,ha,.Cheers!!
Haha I was thinking the same thing! Maybe the machine destroyed some native land and is now cursed....
Any updates?
Nothing new, I called Ziegler for an update, they said they are EXTREMELY busy right now!!.They are going to keep me informed. I am not going to bug them too much!
I'm guessing the bigger shops have adaptors they hook up to the engine crankshaft to load test them on the dyno. Not the same type of dyno a farm tractor would use on the rear PTO shaft.
I am going to ask them when they get it back up and running, if they can do that, they have a very large shop with a lot of equipment. They have, when I was up there last week, two solid rows of customer repair machines waiting to be done. I think it will be awhile, can't use it now anyway, temperature outside is -15!!!
-15? We're supposed to hit -40 with the wind chill tonight in Edmonton. Supposed to warm up next week though. December was really mild though with several days above freezing.
I understand "windchill" but never liked it. Some people are not careful to say that is what they are referring to and then toss in the ºF and ºC and it gets even worse when comparing temps. If a Canadian says it got up to 20º today some one down here in the states would be shivering when in fact it would be a nice day for going for a ride on the motorcycle!
for upstate NY, it aint cold till its below 0..lol...
-4 is going to be the high temperature for the next three days here in central Minnesota!!
What do you guys do for money when it's cold enough that you can't work for months? I have never understood that since I'm from Texas and it doesn't get that cold here even though the lows are in the 20's next week. (Global warming?) Does everybody in construction in the state draw unemployment when when you can't work when it's cold?
A lot of construction workers do draw unemployment.I am involved in dairy,that keeps me busy. Right now I am ice fishing,catching walleyes!
True! If it gets any warmer might have to open the pool back up. Just checked and we are having a heat wave 22ºF and it's not even noon yet!
Yea, the company I worked for had headquarters in the Dallas area and up here we could never understand why they would not let us, or at least the repairmen, work during the winter to be sure everything was good to go in the spring. We always thought they did not understand that our production year was at best 8 months long. Every week we lost to repairs or down time made a big hit on our annual production. We had a good sized shop that could easily fit 2 to 3 haul trucks or front end loaders and still have room for the bowls and cones out of the same number of crushers. So it was not like we would not be able to keep six or eight repair men working inside all winter. And on the good days we could go outside and do those repairs that could not be moved into the shop. Then what really bugged us is when we would get an email from corporate office saying they would be closed for two days as they got a few inches of snow!
-40 is where C and F are the same and it's damn cold but even -20C with a strong wind will feel just as cold or colder.
Nothing slows down in the winter anymore, at least not on the larger commercial projects. Simply lay out the water heated ground thaw tubing, blanket them and in a couple days dig. Install the foundations, exterior walls, temp cover the windows and its temporary heat and business as usual. Biggest issue is getting concrete when its below zero F as even with using hot water and sand in a 10 yard batch you are pretty much limited to a 30 mile delivery distance and a quick unload window. Nowdays when pouring concrete, hardly anyone builds winter shelters anymore. Just pull the heat tubes close and drag the blankets back over the pour. Clothing today is so much better than a few years ago.
down south shuts down when they get an inch of the white stuff...and no one knows how to drive in it, its like giant bumper cars...
We drilled some shafts Thursday and at first were told no mud as it was under 32. Having lived up north that made me laugh. I will say they have gotten a lot better about preparing the roads, getting plows etc for the rare occasions we get ice or snow. 15-20 years ago things flat shut down. One year, maybe 07, we got a really bad ice storm. Power out for days/weeks etc and I ended up throwin chains on my old feed truck and going to Tulsa to get my old man so he could grocery shop and some other odds and ends for family. As big as Tulsa is we almost had the entire city to ourselves. I think I ran on those chains for 3-4 days it was that bad. The house I had at the time sat on a nice 1-1/2 acre lot with beautiful mature trees. I had just trimmed them up nice that fall and had the backyard like a golf course. It trashed them. We laid in bed all night long as the ice came down and accumulated. Started hearing small branches go and then some thuds so loud and hard it shook the house. Tress came down root ball and all! The one that upset me the most was a really nice oak, two full grown adults couldn't touch hands trying to hug it. All that was left was a 40' trunk.
Ice storms are a bugger. They are much worse than snow storms as far as destruction.
this has been one really weird story. tc.. I would love to vacation near you just to follow you for a week.. I can be quiet, too..
I'm waiting to see what the latest is from Zeigler with it. Must be a very low priority to fix there mistake. Or maybe its running and Steve is to busy to fill us in?
almost don't want to know.. although steve has had just about the worst luck (quite a lot was self inflicted, and I have done plenty of that too) reading TC's most hilarious descriptions of just about everything kept me glued to this thing..
No news to report! I guess I am not on their "favorites "list. They didn't respond to my email as of yet!I will keep you posted when I hear from them.
You should tell your service manager or customer service rep about the thread on this site. Tell them it is 34 pages long and the most reviewed thread on the site. You might get the best running 3306 overhauled by the lawnmower mechanics at ziegler. I have told my people at the local dealer about how I have treated them on here and the quality of the new products. Didnt seem like they cared much.
I haven't been on in a while and was rather shocked to see the length of this thread. Could any one do a short summary of the major points? Thanks in advance
Best you read it and weep like the rest of us had to AusDave
The short answer is no.
I have no idea what actually happened, I don't think anybody does. Probably know more about what happens on the other side of the moon.
Lol, we'll how many rebuilds were involved? Just one? Or did it happen twice?
Twice. I think.
I have a prediction that they wont work on your dozer for half a year or longer till you get pizzed off and take it somewhere else, as now its out of their pocket to work on it...I personally at this point would consult my attorney and have him/her send out letters to all parties involved to get working on fixing the dozer, you have nothing left to loose on it at this point and time, but they are stalling to do any work on it because its going to cost them, also time has a way of making agreements and what was said much fuzzier and people to blame disappear from the picture and they will try to bill you again..
I talked to Ziegler caterpillar in St Cloud this morning, they have the machine in the shop. They pulled the head off and found the cylinders scored, again!!The service manager thinks maybe the fuel system is not compatible with the spacer plate block engine. The original engine was a counter bore engine, the engine i got from Capital Exchange was a spacer plate block engine. Service manager is going to do some research. He says basically that we have the same problem that we originally had when I brought it to them. Might have to change the fuel system to correct the problem!!
I have some thoughts on this latest claim by the dealer but not having the full story I'll keep them to myself.
Does anyone on this forum have any ideas as to what could be causing this problem?The service manager seems to be stumped on the cause. He thought for sure the rocker assembly was causing the cylinder scoring, but he didn't now seem so sure. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated and forwarded on to Ziegler. Thanks a bunch!!
Are the pump and injectors original? Sorr I have missed alot of the thread. I have seen a 3306t in a d7 have a injection pump isue and a day later spin a rod bearing. And a have personally seen a cat 966b toss a rod then have a rebuilt engine dropped in with the same pump and have the same cylinder lock up. That one was never solved and the machine is still sitting. Maybe they screwed up on the rocker arms. The owner gave us the machine but I haven't gotten around to hauling it. I've also witnessed a burnt cylinder in a old d7e 48a after a injector cup unscrewed and washed the cylinder during operation causing a piston failure. Anyhow just tossing it out there not saying this is the cause but you never know.
So Ziegler is looking at answers from the knowledge pool of this site because they do not have any? That's reassuring... Page 32 of this thread after the ziegler overhaul seized up. Ran great with no load they said. Ever see a cummins 855 with a 1710 or 2300 pump on it. Runs great with no load. Put some 2300 VTTA fuel settings to it and now you have a pulling engine, for 9.2 seconds. What do we know? Nothing because there is no paper on the wall or big sign out front that says so.
The pump is original, Ziegler caterpillar replaced the Injectors with new ones.
I never could understand how a problem with a rocker arm getting too much or too little oil could cause a scored cylinder. Too little oil and rockers would wear out very bad and that would be obvious. Too much oil getting to the rocker assembly and the worst I can imagine is blowing oil out the breather tube, that too would seem to be very obvious. Over fueling or pump timing off enough to cause fast cylinder failure I would think someone would notice smoke or strange sounds coming from engine even at no load. Has anyone checked rack travel? If one or more pumps were installed wrong I could imagine that could cause a major problem. Someone didn't cobble up injector lines and get firing order wrong did they. I know it sounds crazy but everything related to the engine does by now! They didn't put direct injection pistons in a pre-chamber engine or the other way around did they? We are not dealing with some exotic high performance engine like a Ferrari or a Formula One racer! Just a simple six cylinder two valve push rod engine! Is the problem that there is no place to plug in Cat ET so no one at the dealer can work on it?
Forgive me for asking but, what exactly is CAT ET?
cat et Caterpillar Electronic Technician (Cat ET) is diagnostic software required to communicate, diagnose and service electronically controlled Caterpillar engines and machines. When connected to an Electronic Control Module (ECM), a technician has the ability to diagnose existing and potential problems, configure the product, and obtain data for analysis. http://r.search.aol.com/_ylt=A0LEV0PL1ldamH0A4wxpCWVH;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1515734860/RO=10/RU=http://www.empire-cat.com/catet//RK=0/RS=tYFKKwTMZz2amRaeJsoDh0iS6iw-
ET lets the lawnmower mechanics have a chance at fixing stuff at Zeigler.
Thanks hobbytime for the clarification. I am still learning!
The service manager said that they ran it for a good two hours, didn't notice anything wrong with the engine!!Do you think, like they are suggesting, that the fuel pump is NOT the right pump for a spacer plate block engine?I am fishing for answers to this machine.
They should know by arrangement numbers etc what is compatible or not. I don't buy it. The issues with that engine and their "diagnosis" as to cause don't inspire much confidence. As far as diesels go it doesn't get much easier than that engine. That could very well be their excuse now that they realize they failed in the due diligence dept when assessing your machine from the beginning.
You may be on to something junkyard!
I am going to check with them to see if they installed the direct injection pistons, that would be easy to check with the head off.He seemed to be suggesting overfueling as the possible cause. If they can't figure it out, then I don't know who can. I can't afford to have this keep happening without knowing, for sure, just what is causing the engine to fail. Thanks for your input.
This machine was running great while I I stalled the skid plates, idling. Drove it over to the farm across the field, noticed that the engine was laboring, like trying to drive it with the brakes,both sides, applied.Noticed black smoke, not heavy black smoke, but was smoking. Engine actually shut off on the one mile across the field,twice. It started back up again, temperature was higher than normal, not in the red though. Probably should have called Ziegler right away, as they suggested, but I thought being a new engine, it was just part of the break in procedure. Any more suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks for your response.
To me that is a classic sign of an out-of-time engine. If it were overfueling, it would take longer to gall the pistons and stall the engine. I would also think that you could smell diesel in the engine oil if it happened from overfueling that quickly. I can definitely see a problem with mismatched parts between direct inject and pre-combustion arrangements. They can pick up the phone and call Cat's technical department to have them research and identify any mismatched parts if they can't read a parts book. Just keep calling the service manager about it, he'll get tired of it after a while and get it fixed.
this just gets worse.. I am shocked that a cat dealership tech squad now apparently has so little real world diesel motor experience that they cannot get this thing squared away in about three days. (since the 3306 in this tractor has NO computer port to plug into and tell them what to do)
I called Ziegler caterpillar today and suggested that maybe they might have installed the wrong pistons, direct injection ports.The senior service manager had the day off today but,his replacement said that they were looking into that, he had no more knowledge on this machine.If they mistakenly put the wrong pistons in, would that cause the engine to fail so soon? I need to find the definitive cause of this engine failure. This makes the most sense to me.
To give you guys an update on my machine. Ziegler called today and said that they are basically stumped on the cause of the engine failure. Service manager said they have to replace all of the parts they replaced the first time, new pistons, sleeves,main bearings and connecting rod bearings. He thinks that the fuel pump is delivering too much fuel into the cylinders washing the lubricating oil from cylinders, causing the failure. They plan to take off fuel pump and have it checked to see if it is up to specs.If they find no problem with it, he doesn't know what else to try.He wants me to bring the original pistons, which I still have, up along with the head from original engine to compare to what they have. I am hoping that the pistons won't match and that's the answer to the problem!
WOW!!!
How can you "rebuild" an engine & NOT get the inj. pump & injectors tested?? Arent they supposed to AT LEAST get it checked?? The injection system is the most important piece on the engine.!!! WOW.. Even when your getting your tonsils out they check your heart.. [simplest procedure] The inj. system IS the heart of the motor.. Just something to think about..
They said that they put all new injectors in and checked the engine for being in time. Other than that, I don't know what else to do with the machine, if the fuel pump is delivering fuel correct!
They are just guessing now. Pretty bad when a company the size of Ziegler is guessing.
If the engine is overfueling, wouldn't there be fuel in the oil?Can the
What I meant to say was, wouldn't an oil analysis test show presence of fuel in the oil?
Many years back I was surprised to find out the local Cat dealer did not have a test stand to test run an injection pump on after they "rebuilt" one! We had sent a pump, off a 3306, to them to have it rebuilt while we did the rebuild on the engine. After assembling an engine we always would start and run on the shop floor while hooked to a water barrel to be sure there were no obvious leaks or strange noises. Forget exactly what we noticed wrong with this particular engine but something was obviously not right. After checking some basic things like valve adjustments we proceeded to swapping fuel nozzles, or as Cat calls the prechamber ones injection valves. Problem stayed in the one cylinder. I came up with the idea that there was a problem in the fuel delivery so lacking a test stand came up with the idea of using the engine as the test stand. Dug out a good used pair of American Bosh injectors out of a Mack END711 engine and a pair of fuel lines from the Mack. Installed one set on the cylinder in question and one set on a "good" cylinder. Cranked up the 3306 and let it run on four cylinders while holding a coffee can under each of the test injectors. Yes I was careful to not get fingers near the fuel spray! Did this a couple time to confirm what we were seeing. One cylinder was very obviously getting way more fuel than the other, did not need a graduated test tube to see the difference! Took pump off engine and personally took it to the dealer and explained what we had done and found. At first they seemed to question our methodology and said they had installed new plungers, at the rebuild, so there should be no problem. Well they finally did pull the plungers out of the pump and just by looking at the size and shape of the scroll on the bad cylinder one could see the difference! Next thing was almost better. When they checked availability on a replacement plunger it showed as being in-stock but they could not locate it in parts department. That is until someone recalled they had just had an injection pump class a couple days before. Seems the plunger that was "in-stock" was the one they had used in the class and was sitting on desk in classroom. So now our pump was reassembled with this plunger that had been handled by a couple dozen sweaty hands in the class. Guess the factory had left a good coat of test fluid on it as it worked just fine when pump was reinstalled on engine back at the shop. No idea of the long term operation of the engine but usually our plants would destroy something before a slightly worn plunger would cause a problem!
Did they check the piston cooling jets to see if they are spraying? That would lock the pistons down too...and it would smoke before locking up.
How about sniffing the dipstick?
Here are a couple pictures of the pistons. Service manager pointed out where pistons were starting to melt.Cylinders are all scored again. They took the fuel pump off to get it checked out, the timing was right on. He pointed out the shiny tops of pistons, said that was not normal, possibly from too much fuel being sprayed into each cylinder. Will have to wait until next week for results of fuel pump specs.
Don't know anything about that!Chris, service manager @ziegler is pretty confident that they will find out the cause of the engine failure, through trial and error, if needs be. Just have to have faith that they will pinpoint it.
this sounds like we are going to have to learn to do this ourselves. what a waste.
Ummmmm if Cat has to do a 3306 O/H by trial and error we have a serious issue. Something, hell a lot of things, aren't adding up for me on this deal. I can't imagine navigating this ordeal. They have a ridiculous amount of resources for assuring correct parts interchange, specs for reuse etc. Either they're terribly trained and inept, lying through their teeth or just unlucky. Or the machine has a curse on it....
So here's a couple of observations/questions? You started off with a counterbore block and now have a spacer plate block. The locating dowel at the end of the block is either broken off or cut off. Why? Do you have the right head? Early counterbore heads aren't directly compatible with spacer plate blocks, but all that said, it should only affect the oil feed to the rocker shaft. The plastic ferrules in the coolant seals have started to collapse. That's a sure sign that things have started to get hot. Has anyone looked at the water pump impeller?
Somebody didn't put gasoline into the diesel tank by mistake did they?
I was thinking the same thing..
Yes your correct Hansen. Cat doesn't give a "fuel delivery" spec.. only rack measurements. BUT like you said, how can you verify you have things put together correctly if you don't put it on a machine to check equal delivery.. I CANT COUNT the # of times its happened in the shop I worked in.. Rebuild a 33-3406 put it on the stand & 2 cylinders don't pump OR pump triple what its supposed to. I've seen a mechanic change a plunger-barrel out, on the engine.. Fired it up & it took off, out of control.. Its VERY EASY to get the plungers a tooth off on those engines.. The latest screw-up I saw was a fella rebuilt one & used the wrong timing pin to hold the rack stationary.. Everything went together smooth & equal delivery was smooth.. BUT the customer complained of extremely low power.. Come to find out, the mechanic didnt use the rack measurement gauge.. just ran it to verify equal delivery & took it off the test stand.. HAD HE USED THE GAUGE he would have found out he had used the wrong timing pin & the control rack wasn't even in the correct position.. Seeing Cat doesnt give fuel outputs, he just went by equal delivery.. I never understood Cats reasoning behind that..??
Cmark I asked service manager about the water pump maybe the problem but he didn't seem too keen on that but he said that they were going to check the radiator out, pressurized it.i did leave them the head off the original engine. He wanted me to leave it with them. It is interesting what you said about there being a difference between counter bore and spacer plate block engine. Could that be the problem with the engine failure?Anyway, they have the original head to compare. Thanks so much for your input, all of you guys.You all have so much experience and knowledge and have been a real help.
The service manager may not be old enough to remember that the water pump impellers used to be plastic bonded onto a steel hub. The impeller would break away from the hub and stop spinning. The pump wouldn't leak as the hub would still mate with the carbon face seal. I would have thought that the plastic impellers would have been worked out of the system by now, but there could still be some out there.
The water pump impeller was, if I remember correctly, steel. I don't remember it being plastic, I would remember that.
If you're not sure what Cmark is referring to check the picture below. Locating dowel is circled in Green and Plastic ferrule that is starting to collapse is circled in Red. I might not be too worried about the ferrule looking like that on an engine with 15,000 hours on it but one with only a handful of hours sure is not right!
Yes I see that.I don't know what happened to the dowel pin, but the plastic fertile is out of shape. Service manager didn't mention that. He did point out how each pistons head was showing deterioration, melting, in the corners, indicating extreme heat.Like I mentioned to the service manager, the engine heat gauge started to move up to the middle of the gauge range on a20 decree day right from the get go, engine was laboring, like running the machine with brakes applied, smoking, not heavy, but smoking black smoke, engine finally died,started back up again, drove it across the field about a mile, did some pushing dirt, engine quit again.I am wondering if the heat gauge is off somewhat and the engine is overheating. The radiator wasn't steaming though. After it cooled down, I checked radiator water level, it was 75% that is when I called Ziegler, that is where we are today .
correct me if i'm wrong, if this is a pre-cup engine, should it not have the ss heat plugs in the piston crown? they are used to prevent piston damage from the combustion gases out of the pre-combustion chamber. this has been such a long thread I don't remember if it is a direct injection or a pre-cup engine
It's a precup
did your original pistons have the heat plugs? they are about the size of a 50cent piece and are bolted into the head of the piston. if you turn the piston over you can see the nut on the underside
I guess I don't understand your question..my engine had glow plugs to preheat the engine to aid in starting diesel engine. The second engine has the same preheat glow plugs. I think we are talking about the same thing.
no. the plug (or button) is part of the piston. put up a picture of the original piston top. the original piston before the original failure
56wrench, I understand how you might have missed it with 725 post on this thread already, but that has already been discussed. Actually I had brought up that thought first myself. Unlike some of the other Cat pre-chamber engines the 3300 series pistons do not use the steel plugs in the pistons. I believe the D343 3408 and several other did have those plugs in the pistons. Here are a couple pictures for anyone not sure what is being talked about. The black and white picture is a D399 piston and the color picture is a D343 piston the circle more or less is the plug being referred to. Might have to look into this further as I did a Google search on 3306 pistons and some do show up as having the plugs. Might depend on the horse power ratings of the various engines! I did find at least one place where it does at least confirm that pistons are different between direct injection and pre-chamber engines even though the two different pistons do use the same rings!
I can't put up a picture because I left the original engine pistons with Ziegler caterpillar in St Cloud. They wanted me to leave it with them. Sorry!
Way back from post #203.
Thanks, I forgot about that post .
So If I remember correctly this is a rebuilt long block from another company right? I'm thinking they cobbled the engine together incorrectly!
I would say they now owe you a complete motor.. one that is running correctly. they will most likely have to outsource this from a competent engine builder. would be cheaper than all this nonsense. I don't think I would trust them to put it in either.
I stand corrected on the subject of the heat plugs in the pistons. This thing sure is a mystery
You are correct, it is a longblock engine form Capital Exchange in Denver Co.They are standing by their claim that the engine was assembled correct. They rebuild 300 engines, mostly truck engines, per year and have not had one go bad last year. You are totally correct, this is a mind boggled. I asked Chris, service manager at Ziegler caterpillar, if they have ever had one that they couldn't figure out. He said no,they eventually figure it out. I am going with that. I need this machine real bad!
tell zeigler to give you a loaner till they fix your machine since they are now the ones with no clue how to fix it..ill bet that doesnt go over too good, but see what they do...also they are a cat dealership, shouldnt they be able to look up the proper parts that go into that particular engine rather than keep guessing..I worked at a chevrolet dealer back in high school days and any time the mechanics were stumped on something crazy they could call tarrytown ny a training facility for general motors and a tech would come to the dealership to look at the problem and he had direct access to GM engineers and designers to help figure the problem out, I would imagine all companies including cat would have some sort of facility for the same issues, either you ask zeigler about it or contact cat corp and ask for yourself and pass the info to zeigler , it doesnt sound like they are making any headway now, just still guessing..IMHO
depends on the "training" that their "techs" get.. doesn't it.
thats one reason I would bypass zeigler and go right to cat, again I would think cat would want dealerships to have somewhat properly trained techs..,,or maybe thats just wishful thinking..LOL in the chevy dealer we had A,B and C rated mechanics depending on the training they got from GM, A guys would get the toughest jobs due to their training..
I might have to do that if it's not up and running soon. They checked and double checked the part #1and and they match up. He doesn't know what else to do if the fuel pump checks out to company specs and the radiator isn't clogged up or plugged with crap.
I'm not sure whom at the dealer is working on it but I personally know two of the mechanics at Zeigler's in St Cloud. They are both top hands. I also know that the shop is full, up past their ears, busy with winter rebuild projects for contractors. They got crawlers torn down between the bays as well as all the bays being full. Standard procedure for winter in all the northland dealers. I think the management is giving you bullsh*t excuses because you are small potatoes compared to their big contractors. Spring will soon be here and then I'm betting all of a sudden they will figure it out.
Old iron habit If you are in St.Cloud, stop in and take a look at the machine. It is in bay#4.Maybe you can figure it out.
I got a feeling your going to get bent over with no lube. Maybe they did what Ive seen other dealers do. They put cheap ass parts in it, sold them to you as Cat parts at top dollar, and when it failed they have egg on their face. Its happened before..............
so what have they decided to do now?
Haven't heard from them for two weeks now!!
They're not very good at letting me know what is happening. I guess that I am not very important!
I would be face to face present at this point.
You are probably right. I was hoping that they would give me an update without me calling them first but,it looks like I will have to drive up there and talk to them personally!They were supposed to let me know what they found with the fuel pump after checking it.Oh well.
really sorry you have to do this, but you are going to have to get up close and personal with them. bad thing is your tractor is most likely spread out all over that bay. your money is just as green as the next guy. the other guys are just yelling at them every day.
Unfortunately it seems this is the way most shops do business these days. I think they get on the quick easy jobs to turn cash and leave bigger jobs on back burner. Update calls seem pretty rare unless it’s to collect some $$$
Still trying to find someone qualified to check the pump.
I know you guys don't have much faith in the mechanics at the cat dealership but I don't have anyone else to turn to. I just have to trust them to get my machine back up and running again. If I could have had one of you guys to rebuild my machine, I definitely would have done that, but decisions have to be made and sometimes we go down the wrong path,taking the wrong road.I just hope that Ziegler caterpillar can get it figured out.
An unannounced "pop in" usually works best. I love seeing the surprised look on a service managers face.... I have followed this since the beginning, I really, really hope they get this thing worked out for you.
Talked to my friend whom now works out of a different dealership. He was in St. Cloud the other day stopping for parts while on a service call. He asked a couple of his buddies about your machine. They confirmed that it was a remanufactured engine that **** and was then rebuilt there at the dealer and then **** again. They were pretty tight lipped about it and either didn't know or were unwilling to say much about it. I agree that you should pop in and jack them up. Ask them to beg one of there retired mechanics to come in and get it fixed right by someone who can work without a computer.
I wonder if this is how they force small operators to dump their old machinery. I would be really tired of this chinese fire drill about now.
Some of us on here have talked to the service manager about whats been tying up bay 4. He said "Not my problem" Time to make it his big problem because "ziegler can and will fix anything made by caterpillar" Says my customer service rep.
I am going to find out this week just what is going on. Chris, service manager, says that they will figure it out, sooner or later! Hopefully sooner
So, checked out my machine today. It's pretty much dismantled. They checked the fuel pump to make sure it had the right barrels installed for that fuel pump, and they were correct.They think that the machine is not cooling correctly. They took the radiator out and found the cooling tubes on the bottom, about75% of them were plugged with what looked like to me, seeds from a tree,an olive tree,or seeds from some kind of plant.Next,they are sending it off to MPLS. to get it checked to see if it is still usable .They have the shop manager working on it. He said that he has worked on several 3306 engines before and would like to see this one out of bay#4 back to work again!He is quite puzzled by this machine. One other thing, I told him how the machine was laboring as I was going across the field, before I even put it under load. He is going to check the transmission filter.,might be plugged, causing engine to overheat.They did replace the water heat gauge, the original gauge, he said was not working when I first brought it in.
just a question ..whose paying for all of this? is the dealer covering the engine cost and you all the trouble shooting and new repairs or parts that are needed or are they taking full responsibility for all costs to give you back a good working machine?
I am covering the costs of the first rebuild, they are covering the second time in the shop minus the other tests and service work, gaskets, miscellaneous parts, radiator send out for repair, filters,that will be my responsibility. I think I am going to have one of their mechanics come out when they deliver it out and have him here to make sure that everything is working properly. Maybe have him here for an afternoon, let him run it. I think it will be money well spent!
They should send a mechanic on their dime after all the problems they've caused you.
Im not familiar that much with the Cat engines but seeing you have had so much trouble and its just a thought would it not pay to get the builders to prove the engine on a dyno first. This would prove the work carried out is reliable and gain true engine running data and hp so as its proven reliable before fitting back to the machine and returning to you.
They will find something other than their mistake to blame this overhaul on. The radiator coolant flows from top to bottom. The seeds would be on the top. WHO overhauls and test runs a engine without a working temp gauge before it leaves? A $80 gauge could have saved the lawnmower shop 20k. They might be preparing to put some blame on you as a overheat, take caution. Correct barrels in the pump yes, where was the timing? Nozzle size? Fuel rate? Did both pins (flywheel and pump) slide in at the same time? This is something that shoulda been done before ANYTHING came apart and documented. Dose the timing retard as the fuel rate advances? Buddy you have a frankenstein (spacer plate on a pc block) engine and a guy that has worked on a few. Id like to know what part number pistons were used and how they compare cc wise and in the dish. It will change whats going on inside the combustion chamber when you bring the science of combustion together. Good Luck...
re read DoyleX's first paragraph till it sticks. I don't believe they are planning to do you any favors either.
I'm with Old Dirt here, it sounds by your comments the svc manager is hunting for the right combination of IF's that will remove their liability. They failed to validate coolant flow if the radiator was choked, they also failed to explore the non-functional heat indicator BOTH Their problem especially if they did not run the machine to operating temp and verify the rebuild was satisfactory prior to return to customer. We in my old facilities verified all the above and that a machine was fully functional or called the customer as to OTHER issues prior to release, that evidently did NOT happen here. ALL theirs and if they try to back up on these newly found issues pull your earlier receipt and ask why NOT noted as to those faults in the prior repair as those WOULD HAVE been found for them to call you on and would have cancelled out any warranty IF noted.
To be fair to Ziegler caterpillar, they did replace the heat gauge on the first rebuild, they said that it was not working, although they didn't let me know that it was replaced. The radiator plugged was on the top side, My mistake. I Really have no confidence in the machine right now. Very hesitant, without a tech there to put it to work again! The shop manager, a really good guy, said that they were going to do a more thorough load check before sending it out. I just can't afford to have this happen again. I told him that. They said that they understand. I am going to need a full warranty, if I keep it.
As Doylex said, they WILL find enough things wrong to cover their parts cost for the overhaul. The radiator being plugged story is a "fishing " story from them. They replaced the temp gauge at overhaul, but it didn't work? Doesn't make sense to me. When you were telling us about it laboring and blowing black smoke going to the ridgeline. You stated that it seemed warmer than it should be. You didn't say the temp gauge showed it running hot or even warmer than normal. There are so many things that just don't add up with this whole ordeal.
The video of my machine running was before I took it up to Ziegler. You are right, and they are right, it wasn't working. I don't know about how they record gauge readings, I just take their word on that they ran the machine for a couple of hours, did a stall test on the machine, everything looked to be good to send out. They are going to replace #1and#6 pistons and cylinder walls.He said that they others can be cleaned up. The engine head might have to be replaced. They are going to completely inspect that too. I just have to trust them!
peek a boo
Looks like my machine in the background!
Exactly what I thought.
At least they prefer clean to mounds of stuff and crap!!
HOW can you run an engine for A COUPLE OF HOURS & not check the temp?? ON A NEW ENGINE O-H!!! It DOESNT HAPPEN.. You check oil pressure & temp CONSTANTLY> thru out the run..!!!! I don't know what else to say..
They said that they ran it for a couple of hours and heat gauge was normal, no load though,just stall test!
Who took the picture?51kw, do you work there?
DONT admit to it 51.. LOL
If the original work they did showed scored pistons and cylinders from over heating why would they have not thoroughly inspected the cooling system? That would have been one of the first things I would have been checking! Seems I recall they were trying to say the cylinders were scored from oiling problems do to wrong rocker assembly or some such nonsense. Last I knew oil in the valve train area does nothing for lubricating the pistons or liners. I believe myself and others raised questions about piston coolers. This is sounding like someone cutting corners and not doing a proper repair and now looking for someone else to blame after the fact. Hard to believe if they filled the radiator and rechecked after they warmed it up they would have not noticed crap floating in there. Same as when they tore down engine there should have been signs of crap in the engine if someone was working with even one eye open! I know our local Cat dealer will not warranty any engine overhaul with out the radiator being disassembled and cleaned by a radiator shop they approve of for that work.
Being blocked that much would have been a bear to get coolant back in, shoulda been swimmers in the drains from the blockages, definite loss of concentration by someone.
I can't recall that they ch I can't recall that they checked the radiator out on first rebuild. Are you saying that the wrong rocker assembly had nothing to do with the engine failure?I am thinking that the whole problem started with radiator being plugged, improper cooling of the engine.Waiting for the report on the radiator inspection. All I know is that I have had two engine failures and the mystery has not yet been solved. Thanks for your input.
This post really puzzles me. I think 51kw is really the service manager at Ziegler caterpillar and I have been talking to you all along. Sorry for negative things that I might have said!!
I could be wrong here and if so I would like someone to explain how a problem with oil flow to a rocker arm assembly could cause anything more than excessive wear on the rocker arm, shaft or maybe valve stems. If there was a wrong match up of rocker assembly to head and or head to block I would expect either lack of oil or in some very extreme case too much oil flow into the rocker cover area. Neither of which I can picture having any effect on the pistons or cylinder liners. As I recall there is a very large area for oil drain back from rocker cover area in a 3306 engine so I don't see where there could be enough oil staying up in that area to cause a problem of oil starvation to other areas of the engine. In my opinion rocker arms are not critical in regards to lubrication at least for short periods of time unless they were installed bone dry with absolutely nothing of any kind for lubrication. By critical here, I mean causing an immediate failure of some other area of the engine.
I've been inside lots of oddball engines and some have extremely little lubrication to the rocker arms and they still work fine. Like a 2 cylinder Lister where the pistons go up and down at the same time, has solid push rods and just relies on the crankcase pressure pulsations to carry oil mist up to the rocker boxes, no pressure flow to the upper head area at all.
It was on the www. I have not and will not work for Ziegler.
A stall test is a load! They load it to the point the torque converter stalls out! MAX load possible.
steve.algren.. this thing has gotten so crazy if it were me I would go straight to the service manager and ask how much they are into you right now. this might not go down well but your tractor is really old (even though you really like it) and it's true value is very low. now consider that it might pay you to cut bait here and stop all resuscitation attempts and turn this tractor into an organ donor. look around for a decent D6D (or just rent a tractor) which there are a lot available for around 20-25G and start over. the real fix for your tractor is going to be a new crate motor. I don't believe ziegler is going to swallow that. just some food for thought. right now your machine is the worst kind of money pit I have ever seen.
With my luck, I would end up with something worse than what I have now!
when I got my 6D it had a rash of stuff go blooey. lost exhaust gasket backing off the lowboy when it arrived, to fix that it took a reman head, new manifold, new injectors, (turbo was shot too) water pump/all bearings in the fan drive. ran about an hour and noticed radiator was pushing coolant out, new radiator went in fixed that then injector pump had some kind of bad serious disaster that required a complete rebuild ( this was a good thing, it runs extremely well now). still had trouble with trans heat so found trans pump was shot fixed that really great then final fell apart so had to fix that in the field but all good now.. (also took new rails, segments, pads) whole bunch of leaks around the torque converter that I got to spend a lot of quality time on my head reaching in there to fix those.. anyhow just pointing out that with these old tractors you are never done. If I had any work lined up for it I would do the trans, reseal/bearings the rear cross shaft and clutches, and the other final which probably looks about like the one that grenaded, but this old girl will probably just continue to be mostly yard art now. and this was a tractor that actually looked pretty good. I wish you the best of luck, if you were closer you could come get my D and give it a workout. you would have to give it a charge of refrigerant, however..
Thanks for the offer, real kind of you. I just don't know exactly what I am going to do. I am in to this way too deep now!
Hang on Steve, It will be a classic soon. Then you will learn the next lesson. Lesson 2. Just because they are rare, it does not mean they are valuable.
Dozers are pretty much money pits, the bigger and older they are the bigger and deeper the pit. There's are reason the guys that do dozer work for a living charge what they do and stay a month or more behind. Just hope that you have enough projects to work this repair bill out of the tractor Steve. Not sure how deep you are in the machine but I'm sure 1,000 hrs or so will work it out. We put around 900 hrs on ours last year (personal use) at $125 an hr I could pretty much rebuild the dozer and still be ahead. It's not all doom and gloom.
... and lesson 3>> NOT ALL CAT DEALERS are the same.. Just because they hang a sign out front that says CAT.. doesn't make them smart enough to fix everything..
Yes, but how are you supposed to know which dealership is good at rebuilds? I just believe you have to trust a dealership. After all, as someone posted on this forum,"caterpillar mechanics can fix anything caterpillar makes ".So who are we,the average Joe, supposed to trust?
have you reached out to corporate cat and complained or inquired of this dealership and what training they have or dont have and asked if they could look into whats going on? every company has customer support on a corporate level way above the dealership level, maybe a call from corporate to the dealership may make a difference or for the least they know someone up the food chain is watching whats going on...theres more than one way to skin a cat...LOL
Thanks, I will keep that in mind!
You were warned about Ziegler..
I guess it depends on how far away the next Cat dealer is. If an authorized Cat dealer has problems figuring it out, I don't see a problem going over their head directly to Cat corporate. Cat like most manufacturers is always telling you to use OEM parts and go to their dealers because they have all the factory training and special tooling, blah, blah, blah.
at this point I think he is at their mercy, and everyone knows it. calling the big office in the sky will most likely not endear the mr. algren to the shop manager at all.
I think there's ways to talk to Cat corporate if the dealer can't figure out what is wrong. I'm sure the dealers must have to meet some kind of standards to be an authorized Cat dealer in the first place. Maybe corporate has heard of something similar since they deal with all of the Cat dealers. Maybe the dealer should be reaching out to Cat themselves if they can't figure it out? If this was a big customer having all these problems the dealer couldn't figure out Cat would for sure be involved. It shouldn't matter that's it's not a big customer and maybe the dealer is just hoping Steve goes away. He just wants his engine fixed which shouldn't be rocket science to a Cat dealer. It's not like it's a 2030 tier 16 with 42 separate computers controlling it.
Yea but one of those they could plug a `puter in and it would tell them everything that has been done to it since it left the factory and even tell them the which operator ate what for breakfast the day the problem started!
It would probably cost 20K just to hook the computer up to read it and have to be done by a Cat dealer. It's not like it's a rare engine in a rare application is why it's so puzzling why know one can figure out what's wrong.
I have to admit this thread has been entertaining! ......and expensive.
Anybody else have the book "Beer and Diesel Fuel" in their library? Its a decent read about a Cat factory service rep that traveled to multiple countries to solve and sometimes offer re-engineering advice to the factory when the local dealer was stumped. Its a entertaining book to read while educating us about various Cat machine issues and how they were solved.
apparently those days are over..
Last time I was in St Cloud it was not a dry town. Quite the opposite. They should be able to get some corporate help to go there. Probably not anyone at corporate old enough to help though.
I haven't heard anything from them. I guess that I am just a "peon",small potatoes to them. Can't use it yet anyway ,40" of frost here in Minnesota!!
Your getting screwed if you ask me. Ide be sitting in front of their facility with a protest sign until they did something, and Ide call the store manager every hour all day, everyday. If that didn't get some kind of result, Ide be having a lawyer call them from now on.
Qt this point in time you need to exert maximum pressure on them. Contacting the "GODS" at Cat for starters.
pressure on cat.. sure..
Wow, this thing is still going...
Update?
Ziegler is putting together a price to get it back up and running again .Radiator was 50%plugged with water scale.
They said that they were going to "help" with the costs!whatever that means We will have to wait and see
WOW.. they have the ENTIRE machine, right? & not just the engine?? Steve,, I don't know how to say this any plainer.. ALL THAT should have been checked BEFORE the engine was started.. its THEIR FAULT.. You SHOULDNT HAVE TO PAY 1 CENT for their mistake.. as a matter of FACT.. they should be paying YOU for your down time.!!! Your gonna get bent over, no matter what you do.. just lettm fix it & THEN> Do yourself a favor.. pay w/ a CC & AFTER you get the machine back, "dispute" the charges.. Its either that or get an attorney..
I second that thought, a engine overhaul is only complete when it is proven reliable and if they failed to credit ALL the subsystems to provide engine support before releasing then THEY are at responsibility for everything save fluids/consumables.
Guess I have to agree on this also! As I believe I have said somewhere back in this thread our local Cat dealer, the last I knew, required that the radiator be removed and cleaned for a machine they were doing an engine rebuild on. The last one I was involved in was, I believe, a 769C truck. We removed the engine and sent it to the dealer to be rebuilt. Before they had it ready they informed us that radiator need to be gone through. They did not do the radiator themselves as we also used the same shop they used for their radiator work. After we reinstalled the engine they sent a mechanic out for the first start to check idle speeds and oil pressure. Unless there is something in writing on your paperwork for the last "rebuild" stating that you were responsible for insuring all associated systems such as radiator were in good working condition they should have at the least put in writing a recommendation that you have them serviced. The Pumpguys suggestion to pay any bill they toss at you with a credit card could be a good way to get someone on your side with a little leverage. Now if they eat the bill for all the work but ask you to foot the bill for having the radiator cleaned I guess I would not see a major problem with that but the loss of use of the machine due to their neglect should come into play!
Well,they said that they were going to help ,so we will have to see. Their conclusion of the engine failure was due to overheating the engine, plugged radiator. I told them that you guys said that the machine shouldn't have been sent out without checking out the radiator, service manager said that they ran water through it, that was their checkout of the radiator. The camshaft lifters also showed scratching marks from pushrods ,extreme pushing due to the lack of lubricating oil ,wrong rocker assembly, on the first rebuild, My mistake, so they are placing some of the blame on me. We will see....
just cut to the chase and buy a big 5 pound jar of Vaseline your gona need it....just by those remarks from the dealer they are passing the buck already...
this is so crazy wrong it is unreal.
I will agree with everyone so far.... you are going to take it in the shorts hard and dry!
I can see paying for radiator repair, I can also see consumable materials as oils, antifreeze and gasket sealants but they come at you with anything else is time to call an attorney.
Just have to wait and see what they are going to do!
How long are you going to have to wait? You should be on them like flies on _hit!!! Sounds like they are grasping at straws trying to avoid their own incompetence.
If I were you, ide be asking for their regional reps contact information. Sometimes you have to go over their heads to get results.
and Steve, when I know I'm going to get screwed, I usually like to practice my positions beforehand. May I suggest the "over the barrel" pose. I'm currently trying to get a customer assistance from CAT on a failed engine at 2800 hours on a D6T. I will tell you this, I am NOT beyond walking into the service managers office and leaning over his desk with my legs spread if I don't get my way. Ill do it in front of a regional rep too. Its my way of making a point!
I understand your point but I want to see what they will do for me first .I believe in being nice to people who are working on something that I own. It's called"Minnesota nice "Maybe I am getting screwed, but let's see how this all plays out.
There comes a point when enough is enough and you've been waiting a long time.
Stop and think... So all the lost time from their mistake cost you non use. You received no rental or loaner machine. Use that as leverage against whatever dollar they will try to stick on you. That should more than cover the simple radiator repair. After all, every bit of this repair is negligence on their part for not training the lawnmower mechanics about proper engine overhaul related systems functions.
Been thinking it, but didn't post it. If Steve wants to play nice then so be it. Ill be looking for his explosion on here soon enough.
I like your style. As Dalton said "be nice till it's time to not be nice".
Steve's first post goes back to November 2016. I don't think this dozer has run 10 minutes since, and the downtime alone adds up to more than what he has in repair costs with no resolution in sight. Its way past time to be nice He's the "little guy" that gets squashed by CAT just like the rest of us do when THEY FK up. At what point exactly do you stop putting up with their BS? There an old saying......."The squeaky wheel gets the grease". The days of " You attract more flies with honey then $hi*" are over with these dealers now days. This is all just MY humble opinion...............based off BS I see daily anymore. I had a customer 2 months ago take a D3K in for hard starting. I looked at the machine BEFORE he took it to CAT, but didn't have time to do the job in his timeframe. It went to CAT. They installed a new pump and injectors,and ran it, but called him to let him know he had a bent valve? It didn't have a bent valve when it was picked up, I ran the engine myself beforehand. There was nothing he could do at that point, NEW head and $15000.00 when he picked it up.
It is my belief that cat will drop a bill north of 30G on this guy, then pretend to "help" with the trucking..
How will we know when it's time to not be nice? You won't, I'll tell you when it's time. Love that movie.
Let them finish it. Take it home, use it, and then when they threaten you for non payment, let them, and explain the whole mess to the judge. Hell, show him this thread. My guess is that they would rather write it off than admit to corporate they messed up bad. They need to be Minnesota Nice to. For those out of state, that's the Minnesota Office of Tourism advertising slogan.
Excellent idea! *Edit*. That actually puts the ball in their court. Be MN nice and say "Do you mind if I take it and run it a bit to make sure it's right? I'll be back in a couple days with a check if all is well." Sometimes you gotta be smarter than the average bear and beat em at their own game. Damn sure wouldn't pay em and then try to get your $ back. It'll never happen.
That would be a better idea. Pick it up or get it delivered on a Friday and say you're going to run it over the weekend to make sure everything's good. Then let them come to you for payment.
I DOUBT SERIOUSLY they're gonna let him get 5ft away from the front counter with out paying the bill.. ESPECIALLY if THEY have to deliver it.. I stand by my statement.. pay w/ a CC.. & once you get home.. dispute the charges.. the CC co. puts a freeze on payment UNTIL an agreement is reached & all is settled.. THE CC co even have "moderators" that will intervene on his behalf.. Just be sure to wait until the machine is delivered before you pull this stunt.. THATS another thing.. once the machine is finished.. how you getting it home?? CAT?? or private carrier?? Don't pay the bill & THEN try to figure it out.. have a plan in place.. IF its CAT.. don't let them tell you, "it'll be A COUPLE OF WEEKS before we can get someone out there".. THATS B.S.!!! They just wanna make sure they get YOUR MONEY before they deliver it.. Good luck..
I would be extremely (as in to the max) surprised if cat lets this tractor off it's plantation without full payment in hand. they read this thing too. it is painfully obvious they know one individual (farmer) will not have the monstrous legal sources needed for the disputed CC court case. they will leave one component off the tractor till they get their money. this isn't the first time they have been down this road.
Well guys, I found out that they are not going to cover the costs involved for the rebuild .They're saying that they are not responsible for the radiator being plugged, as to the cause of the engine failure .The bill to complete putting it back together is A LOT more than what the machine is worth .I have to consider the options that they presented to me. I don't like any of them ,but I have to make a decision on what to do .Thanks for all of your comments ,you guys have been SO helpful ...
Just to add another point ,even if it's back up and running again ,I can't trust the engine to not fail again. They never could explain why the machine died twice just going across a field,under no load.I think that I am going to have to cut my losses.
I would be consulting a lawyer. There are too many discrepencies to their story. The temp gauge that was replaced, but still didn't work. Where is that documented? Did they forget to document the replacement? The fact that a 50% plugged radiator should not cause an overheat under minimal load. ( You driving across the field) As many of us have said, they will screw you over.
As you and I just said. THEY HAVE NOT EXPLAINED THE PROBLEM!!!!! Get a lawyer!!! ASAP!
I hate to tell you, but walk away and let them keep the machine will be your best bet...for several reasons..1-its not worth it financially, 2-will it run and for how long and 3- who knows if they screwed with it on purpose to fail down the road, 4-you will spend lots more on lawyers and probably get no where and after a legal battle refer to #3 again....take it as a loss against your farming business and move on...but you had to see this coming as most everyone else did...just consult a lawyer that you can trust on the best way out but either way it wont be pretty...
let me guess, they will let you walk away if you give them your tractor..
Plus some!!
so for arguments sake, what is the bill $$$ for the work they have done on the dozer?
I'm positive its more than the machine is worth as it sits. .......and its not even fixed yet. Ide give them the dozer, tell them FU, and make them come after me.
Oh GOD, I'm dying to know myself!
HeavyEquipmentForums Steve, go Here^ and tell us how you REALLY feel.
what a mess. really sorry for all this pain when you were only looking for help.
Man this is ***ked up. Talk to a lawyer for sure. It's worth a few hundred to know your legal options. I don't buy anything they're telling you. Unless you haven't told us the entire true story I don't see how they're not liable. Not saying you're misleading us just putting that contingency out there. They're damn sure responsible for some of the issues. If I had a machine with a fresh O/H from somebody else exhibiting those symptoms I would most likely decline the job but IF I took it on I would start from the front and work my way back. While an engine is a complete component in and of itself there are ancillary components that must function properly for it to operate correctly. Instinctively I don't trust other people's work. Trust but verify you could say. Given the background of this machine and having been fought on bills before I would sure think Cat would be doing all they could to cover their ***. Or in this case they're cornholing you as a way to cover their culpability. I hate if for you. What a nightmare to deal with. I guess ultimately you will do what's best for you and only you know what that is. I'm a fighter myself, sometimes principal over $$. Have your bank do a draft that's good when you've put 100 hours on it....lol
This has been a real lesson in life. I should have listened to you guys much earlier on ,especially "Nige", he has so much wisdom .but life goes on.I should have repaired the original engine, would have been the best course of action.
To be fair to Ziegler caterpillar, they offered to buy the machine from me for a not too bad price .The replacement parts that they installed were aftermarket parts from Capital Exchange ,that they covered, price wise ,so they are not warranted by Ziegler .Ziegler originally said that they were going to replace the parts ,at their expense on the second rebuild, but they seem to have forgotten about that. They deducted the engine troubleshooting and half of the transport costs from my farm ,but that was all they were going to do for me. Little guy looses again!
I guess I wouldn't be so quick to jump all over cat about this, and I'm not much for lawyers. If you think cat's bill is bad, it's nothing like lawyer bills. And Cat probably has their own on retainer. Maybe I just hate lawyers. I think a lawyer is just going to mean he can pay a lawyer, and cat, and a year or so from now he might see his dozer, and he'll have wasted even more of his time/life. If you guys remember, this isn't originally cat's problem. Steve lost a engine, and got a reman from a supplier, and installed it. There were some arrangement problems with the reman engine, and probably a guy familiar with these engines would have caught it, but steve didn't. Reman didn't make it. (wrong oiling set up, if I remember right). I don't think that was on the reman supplier. After the first reman failed, steve then called in the cat guys. They found the arrangement problem, and put it back together. They kind of started in the middle of this problem, which is a horrible way to jump into a problem, and they knew steve probably didn't want to spend any more $ than he had too, having already been burned once. They dug into it, found the wrong oiler set up, and figured they had it. The cat man is in a no win situation. Customer tried to fix old dozer himself, messed it up, and now they get thrown in. IF they go through every possible thing on the dozer, customer is probably upset, because he didn't want his radiator, transmission, torque converter, fuel injection system, finals, or whatever else, all gone through. If they go through everything else, they may have not found anything else, but it sure would have been nice if they had checked the radiator. When they found the wrong arrangement parts, they figured they had the problem located, and quit looking. I probably would have. Unfortunately, they didn't dig deep enough. So they carry a little blame there, but I'm not sure its the same as if they had gotten the dozer from original problem, instead of after the first repair by steve. Should steve have kept running it after it was obviously not right, after getting it home from the cat man? I don't think so. That's not on CAT. Steve asked cat to fix it, he's on the hook for the bill. I think steve's being a stand up guy here, and its probably going to hurt. But he knew cat doesn't work cheap, and that's where he took it. Sometimes we all have to take our lumps with big equipment. It stinks for steve, but I'd like to think I would handle it with the same attitude/ outlook that steve has expressed here.
I think that you said it very well .I have no one to blame but myself .Thanks
if they will buy it even if you lose a few thousand..jump on it and move on, if your gona lose both your nuts and an arm, I would consult a lawyer.. your call to make... then if you need a dozer try and find a reputable seller that will give you a warranty, even better see if you cant rent the machine and use the hell out of it to make sure it runs good before buying...also your sanity is worth something in the big picture..
I disagree. Steve, I've followed this thread from the beginning, and was sure hoping for a different outcome! Yes, you do have some responsibility in the mess--but I don't think you bear the brunt of the blame. There are too many things that don't add up (these are to the best of my memory and I might be off in left field somewhere): 1. Several very knowledgeable folks here cast serious doubt on the theory that a bad arrangement would have starved the upper end enough to cause the damage seen in the failure of the first reman engine. 2. When you took it to Ziegler for repair, there was an understanding there that you would receive, in return, a working machine. There's an implied contract there. 3. They returned the dozer to you in a state that precipitated another failure--they supposedly had tested it before delivery, why didn't they catch any problems at that point? If the radiator was plugged enough to cause the engine to fail while driving across a field--then they should have caught that in their own testing. I rather doubt they did much "testing" before just giving it back to you--which may be considered a breach of contract. 4. The "bad temperature gauge"--how did Ziegler determine that the gauge was bad? Was it getting hot and the gauge not registering? That raises the possibility that they did test the dozer and overheated it before noticing that the gauge was bad. Suppose a clogged radiator was really the issue all along AND the temperature gauge was bad. They tested the machine, notice it is very hot but the gauge is not registering hot, they replace the "bad gauge" and then what? No more testing? IF Ziegler's argument is correct, that the radiator was the problem--then it stands to reason that it is also probable that they, themselves, damaged the engine before they ever returned it to you. I'll bet they even know that. 5. They're behavior reeks of a manager asking "what's up with the 6c in bay 4"? And getting the whole story about how they're going to have to eat the cost because they messed up. The manager says, "Oh, no, we're not.... tell the customer he's responsible because of the clogged radiator." There is ample evidence that they are trying to cover their own problem: 1. They know you are not a contractor and cannot afford to throw money at machinery 2. They know you already tried the "cheap" fix, so they must assume that you don't have unlimited funds. 3. They went ahead and did the repair without telling you exactly how much it was going to cost you--considering 1 & 2--why would they sink that much of their own time and money into a repair when they knew, without a doubt, that you were unlikely to be able to cover the cost? My take--after their rebuild failed, they realized they gave you a faulty machine. Someone there agreed to fix it at their expense. That person got overruled and they are trying to blame it on a problem that they should have, by all rights, have caught in earlier testing--but they didn't and in missing it possibly damaged their first rebuild. I'm not one to run to a lawyer for stuff--but there are times when it is appropriate and a letter from an attorney can work wonders. If there is any possibility of negligence on their part (which there is), you would have your dozer back very quickly.
Well spoken!
HOLY ****.......even MORE well spoken advice!
don't forget this, Steve : IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT. once cat service manager took over and promised to fix your tractor correctly and then completely fubar'ed it they now have all the responsibility in the whole matter.
My last word on this. If you tell Cat to keep the machine, they will sell it. Any costs that the selling of the machine does not cover will most likely still considered your responsibility to pay. If you do go that route, insure you get a signed document that releases you of all charges, in exchange for them keeping the machine. I wish this had a different ending. Steve, I admire your tenacity and the ability to keep your head up during this long, real life lesson, process. You will be considerable more knowledgeable and perhaps better off because of it in the long run. Good Luck and thank you for helping us all with our continuing education.
I too feel that at least an attempt to see if a letter from a lawyer would do some good. It would be one thing if you had taken this machine to Fred's lawnmower shop to have the work done. But you took it to what SHOULD have been the best and most knowledgeable group of people in the state who have direct access to the manufacture of the machine! Unless you gave them detailed instructions on what you wanted them to do and what you did not want them to do I have to feel they hold 90% of the responsibility for the failure. To me it's like if they and done the job and gave the machine back to you without checking the air filter or the piping to the engine from the air filter. If I recall, I'm not about to read back through over 850 pages to find out, this machine was taken to them after a extremely low hour failure of the previous engine repair. To me the first thing that should have been done after dismantling that failed engine would have been a in depth investigation into the cause of that failure! At that point if they had found the radiator plugged then, yes it would be your fault.
They didn't look for anything other than the wrong rocker assembly installed by me. I just talked to them again this morning and the service manager said that they weren't looking for anything else ,in their minds, that was the only explanation for the engine failure #1.Chris,did say that they poured water down from top to bottom of the radiator, found that it did run out the bottom ,imagine that !!!
I sure admire your patience Steve. If it were me I would wait and see how they handle the final outcome of the repair bill /charges. Don't P#ss them off till then with a lawyers letter. There still may be hope that they will do right by you. Good grief you waited this long whats another month or two ?
I'm sure I've said it at least once before: A problem with rocker arms is NOT going to be the cause for a cylinder having a piston seize! Sure it will cause problems like worn rocker arm bushings worn shaft and maybe even some valve guide wear after a period of time. By a period of time I would say several hours or more and that is assuming absolutely no oil was getting to the rocker arms. Just the normal amout of oil one might put on during assembly would be good for a bit of running. Anyone who claims otherwise needs to give me a good explanation of how this would happen. How bad of a mechanic did they have working on this machine that they would not even work the machine enough to get it to operating temperature before dumping it on your lap? Just reading back some and see again that their road man can out with the BS story about wrong size pistons shows me they don't know what they are doing. If you have any paper work from that trip they made I would keep it and make sure your lawyer sees it and print out all this thread to let him hear from some of those who do know what they are talking about!
THEY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.. they saw this poor farmer coming and decided to tune him up good.
I called them and we
I meant to say that I called them this morning and we settled the dispute between us .It is not the outcome that either party wanted ,but I don't want to get into a legal battle and neither did they ,so this thread is FINALLY over!Thanks again for all of your comments and suggestions ,many I didn't heed, sorry ,but I must move on .
you cant leave us hanging after all this time..what was the out come?
Good grief, you gotta tell us what the final outcome was.
They forgave a lot of the first rebuild charges ,I ended up owing them some money but manageable for me ,and my marriage is still intact!!That is the most important thing. My life partner is my best friend. I have a real winner for a wife. I just have to find another d6c to play with!!Thanks again. ...
MY GOD MAN.. just kick us in the nuts why dontcha.?? We/some have stuck w/ you for the last couple of YEARS.!!!!! & your just gonna walk away?? Your "some kinda special"..
when you say you owe them some money is that after they keep the dozer? or you have it back and owe them....just put the numbers out there, it will only hurt once...
here is my guess.. he GIVES them the tractor, and pays about 9500 bucks.
Does not compute. How do you send a tractor for a fix, then find out you owe them the tractor and a lump of money in return? Can't quite get my head round that one. What kind of a world do we live in?
Why does this seem like a troll thread now?
[QUOTE="Steve.ahlgren85, post: 738851,---> I just have to find another d6c to play with!! Thanks again. ...[/QUOTE] SAY WHAT !!!!! Find another D6c ??? This whole thing wasn't making any kind of sense to me. Now it is unbelievable when you don't explain what the hell the settlement was. IF THERE WAS ONE !! Troll thread indeed vetech63 !
Steve you owe it to all the people who have tried to help and guide you in this long painful process. Please tell us the final outcome. Nobody blames you for walking away but your experience could really help someone else in the future. What were they disputing? You took a machine to them to get fixed and they couldn't or didn't fix it. That's not your fault.
My choices were #1 Pay Ziegler for the first rebuild $10,641,and take the machine home disassembled. #2 pay another $14,255 to rebuild it again, totaling $24,896. ,first rebuild plus second rebuild.They are not going to cover the costs on the second rebuild because they don't see it as a quality of workmanship issue. They were not looking any where past the rocker assembly installation incorrectly, which was my fault .They did run it outside ,did a stall test ,and past inspection, so they sent it out to me.#3 option was to let them buy it from me, reducing the transport costs ,two times to my farm 35 miles, one way, also reduce the machine diagnostics costs, making my payout to them of approximately ,$4,000.Chris was supposed to email me the total amount this afternoon, but he must have gotten tied up. I am giving them my machine plus $4,000 .I know it is not right ,but I don't want a legal battle .You guys deserve some figures and it is what it is .I just don't trust that machine to not fail again. I can't afford to have this happen again so I am washing my hands on this machine..Any more questions, feel free to ask!
I'd have been in an attorneys office that HOUR, been on the phone with that attorney to Cat the next. They just robbed you and STOLE that machine.
They'll probably stick another engine in it at their cost and make a huge profit on it. Most lawyers will give a free 1/2 hour consultation. I think this dealer is gambling you wouldn't take them to court. I thought they offered to buy machine? Not making you pay $4000 for them to take it. Hope you didn't sign anything. Even 1 or 2K at the lawyers is still less than the 4k you gave them. The rest of the machine has to be worth as much as the engine. I agree they stole your machine. What ever you do don't sign anything or give them any money and TALK to a lawyer. What they did may even be illegal and they can be prosecuted. THEY SCREWED UP!!! not you. Don't let them get away with it.
dont laugh but start a " go fund me page" you should see some of the lame stuff people collect a fortune on, just put your long sad story on and im willing to venture you would collect a pretty penny..go look at some of the go fund me pages...
I cannot imagine the mental turmoil you and your wife have gone through with this ordeal. Have you totaled up the entire amount of what you have lost including the value of the D6 before those idiots transported it off of your farm the first time ?
I don't blame you for walking away.. It's probably donna sting for a long time.. Just don't buy another POS.. or the next time you come here looking for "help".. all you'll hear are crickets.. cuz to be brutally honest> you didn't follow our advise from the start & your not gonna follow it in the end.{lawyer} I know FOR A FACT, that if you take them to court, you'll win.. simply because, they know they were wrong & banking on you walking away.. & IF you decided to pursue the matter.. they wouldn't take it any further & pay you 10K to "go away".. cuz its ALOT cheaper than getting THEIR lawyers & insurance company involved.!!! I've seen it happen atleast 10x in the co I worked for.. 10K use to fly out the door on a regular basis.. w/ a fixed machine !!!!!!
I just don't see any way of taking them to court and winning. They would claim that they were not responsible for the radiator problem because they were repairing the rocker assembly as being the cause of the engine failure #1.I would be stuck with legal fees trying to sue a giant business that has a legal team of their own .I see nothing but a larger headache than what I have this morning!
Well if that is what they are claiming they are dead to wrong as it has been said here a number of times THE ROCKER ARM PROBLEM DID NOT CAUSE THE FAILURE! If you do in fact make them a gift of this tractor and a pile of your money do not ever even look at buying another piece of Cat Equipment! Your picture is going to posted at that dealer with a heading saying SUCKER in big letters and the price for every part you want to buy will be three times what it should be. And heaven forbid if you need to call them for any kind of repair work. They will tell you that the broken door latch is what caused a total transmission failure and they will offer to take it off your hands and "ONLY" charge you transportation and $4,000.00!
I can imagine your grief , aggravation and marital strain you have gone through, but the worst is over, go consult an attorney even if you have to pay a few bucks , show him all the facts including a copy of this thread and let a lawyer decide if you have a chance or not on winning a legal battle with them, then you can make an informed decision...not to hit you below the belt, but you got great advice here that you discarded to the side and did it your way, if you go that route with a lawyer..well you know..but dont give up so fast...and if a lawyer says you have a very good chance of winning ask him if you only pay the lawyer if you win and about what the price will be, or at least have the lawyer send a letter to the cat dealer threatening legal action if they dont cover all the costs, worse case on that is if they say no and you can walk away knowing you tried...
I wouldn't pay them a dime if they were keeping the machine. It's much better, based on my experience, to be the plaintiff and not the defendant. Go see a lawyer, explain things WITHOUT your predispositions that are undoubtedly influenced by the bull$hit Cat is feeding you. See what the lawyer says. A letter works wonders sometimes. I'd keep my $4,000 and use some of that for a lawyer. Cat ain't coming after you. Getting you to give them $ and your machine is like getting kicked in the nuts when you're already on the ground in pain. I know you want to wash your hands of it and I understand those feelings. However, there are occasions when you have to fight for what's right. Don't let them make a bit*h out of you. Hell I'll write the letter for ya. I'm from the firm WeFu*kem & How. The collective knowledge that attempted to help you navigate this nightmare has a combined experience of CENTURIES. Think about that. Let us help. What I flushed down the toilet this morning was smarter than the tech that worked on your machine. Don't back down!!
I think I'm the "sucker", I read all 45 pages in disbelief. It's like a bad long movie with a bad ending.
As I have said before and others are saying now. You are being charged for THEIR incompetence! A lawyer consult will do wonders. Most will work on a contingency fee. They only get paid if you win. Listen to your gut, you have said that this doesn't seem right. There are no questions being answered. I hope you have saved any documents and emails sent by Chris. I would guess that there will be some lost documents on their part if this goes to trial. They will have to try and cover up their mistakes.
In my area a first time visit with a lawyer is usually free of charge.
I don't think a lawyer would work on a contingency fee in this case. They only do that in injury claims from what I can tell but it doesn't hurt to ask. Most will give a free consultation and to get a letter sent is probably in the 3-$500 range. Don't try to guess at what the dealer will use as their defence. They are the authorized Cat dealer and it's not like your machine is a brand new model and they've never had one apart. No, it's just one of the most popular engines Cat ever made with thousands of them out there. There is no excuse for them not checking everything out especially after the machine came to them because of a problem with the 1st rebuild. They should have gone through the entire engine, cooling system, oil system and everything else that relates to any kind of engine issues. If they would have fixed your machine properly and charged an extra $1000 or so to re-core the rad you would have been a happy camper. They are playing you as a fool. I don't think they'd want to go to court. A good lawyer finds an experienced independent mechanic or even gets a Cat mechanic or foreman from another dealer to explain what steps should be taken in determining what caused an (unusual) engine problem and these guys are SUNK! After a meeting in a lawyers office, they wouldn't want to go to court. Let me give you my own personal experience with something similar I went through. Sorry it's a little long. I purchased an older (75) GMC 6500 single axle dump truck several years ago. I paid a premium because it looked in fantastic shape and the seller said it had all new brakes. The seller even had a DOT inspection on it although it isn't required on a single axle truck under 33,000 GVW. Truck ran great and the box was like new. A couple month's later I got a job hauling sand to the local MX track. Everything was going great. I had hauled 39 loads no problem. On the 40th load heading back to the track, I turned on to the gravel road heading to the highway. I was speeding up going about 15 MPH when all of a sudden I heard a loud bang. I looked in the passenger mirror and thought I saw something fly in the ditch but I think it was just dust or something. I stopped and noticed the brake pedal was fluctuating and the truck wasn't stopping like it used to. The truck was loaded and I had about 15 miles to go mostly on back roads. I limped the truck to the track and dumped the load. Then I limped it in to a brake shop I did snow removal for. They were certified to do commercial vehicle inspections as well. They pulled it apart and the problem was obvious! The passenger side drum (hyd brakes) was almost split in 2 ! The hub was the only thing keeping it together. The brake pads were like brand new but the drums were 120% worn when measured with a drum micrometer. Further inspection showed the wheel bearings were also shot. $2000 later I had proper brakes. The brake pads were so new (99%) they were reused! I contacted a lawyer who assigned an articling student to my claim to save me some $$$. The seller and the company that did the inspection were sent letters. They said it was sold as is and they weren't liable, so a pre trial meeting was set up at the court house with a judge (to see if it could be settled) because they weren't prepared to offer me anything. My lawyer explained the problem and they (the seller had a lawyer) were trying to say it happened a couple month's after the inspection. (the inspection was a big mistake for the seller). I did one better... I put the broken drum in a box and took a small dolly to carry it. After some discussion and deniability I opened the box everyone was wondering about and pulled the drum out. The owner of the inspection shops jaw dropped to the ground. He said he'd never seen a drum split before. The seller knew him because the company the seller used to work at had their trucks serviced there. The owner then said he took the sellers word for it that the brakes were done. He thought the seller had a brother in law that was a HD mechanic and did the brakes. The shop I knew that did brakes said you never take someone's word for it and always pull at least one wheel off when doing an inspection. The manager of that shop was a good friend and offered to come to court if need be. We set up a meeting at my lawyers office and the sellers lawyer was again saying it happened a couple month's after the inspection and it was sold as is. The problem with that is that an inspection is good for a year and should note any potential issues that may need to be addressed in less than a year. It does not explain how you can have 99% pads and drums worn 120%. The shop that fixed my brakes also said a groove on the drum can usually be seen or felt from looking under the truck and is a good indication the drums are worn and the wheel should come off to inspect further. A couple days later the inspection company asked my lawyer if they could pay for the repairs in 2 payments. They could lose their inspection license. My student lawyer suggested I should get it all at once. I should have taken this offer. I did get $1800 though split between the seller and the inspection shop. I think I paid about $550 for the student lawyer so I did get $1300 of my money back which is certainly better than just walking away. I claimed the legal fee's on my taxes so a got a little bit more back. STEVE TALK TO A LAWYER!!!
If we could get our hands on their training material I wonder what it says about proper procedure in a reman or O/H engine situation as far as what to check.....might be able to use their own info against them.....
All this stuff would be good in court. I don't think the dealer would want to go to court over problems they couldn't figure out in a common engine. I know when Finning (local Cat dealer) rebuilds an engine, everything is new in it including the oil pump even it appears to be good. I'm sure Cat does have a procedure and overhaul manual. Say it did go to court and they discussed the overheating. Wouldn't the 1st question be, Did you thoroughly check to make sure it wasn't a radiator or cooling system problem? I think they missed a bunch of steps and it's on them.
I would really like to have NIGE weigh in on this,if he would one last time!
I know Im calling my buddy at ziegler salvage monday morning!!!! Steve you still wont listen to a word any of us that live it everyday for life says. You got everything you had coming to be blunt
Yes it would be nice if Nige weighed in. It's too bad Bob/Ont isn't still with us. Be interesting to see his take on this too since he worked at a large Cat dealer for many years. No offence at all meant to Nige but do none of the other opinions from experienced owners, operators and mechanics mean anything to you?
Like I said> I've seen my old company "pay off" a lawsuit atleast 10x a year.. 10k in your pocket for just a letter.. AND they had to fix the equipment.. or at the VERY LEAST, reassemble it.
LOL. OK I'm done!
I suspect Nige has headed back into the bush for work, would not expect any comments from he for awhile.
I Please, I mean no disrespect. I value all of you guys as being very knowledgeable .So please forgive me .I just wanted one more of the senior members of HEF to give his input. I, plus my wife are very hesitant to fight a legal fight with a corporate giant.
It only becomes a legal fight of that magnitude if you choose to do so. At this point you've thrown so much time and money at it throw a few hundred more at it in the form of a firmly written letter from a lawyer. I've been down this road several times. Letters often make them sit up and take notice that they may want to rethink their position. You've got NOTHING to lose in doing so. Don't think of it as David vs Goliath. It's right and wrong. Honestly their corporate lawyer that's on staff probably isn't very good or he'd be at a firm. He's not there to litigate he's there to make sure documents are drafted properly and to cover their *** when somebody is fired. (Sorry for assuming it's a he, could be a she or even an "it" these days) I sued a very large company years ago when trucking over about $50,000. It took me about 30 months but I got my money. Their staff counsel was not very bright nor were their employees and I had documentation of everything they denied. They tried to starve me out but I wasn't having it. More often than not legal matters are a nightmare. I'm in the middle of one now that's gone on over a year. I sued because I chose to, they're wrong and I'll get my $ at some point. In this case you'd be potentially suing them to keep what's yours and have it work the way it should have when you brought it to them. All of their excuses are straight up bull$hit. There are situations where it's wise to walk away. This is NOT one of them.
Steve, consulting an attorney is not fighting a legal fight. It's seeking professional advice. If you have a toothache, you go to a dentist. Please, seek professional guidance. You don't have to follow their advice.
I cannot believe this
As I previously said be nice to them until you know the outcome. Now you know what it is. Get a good lawyer to write that first letter of intent. You always have the option of giving up at any time you choose if legal consul tells you it may not be feasible to proceed at some time in the future of the lawsuit (which I doubt). I really believe you (could) will get your dozer back.
You can lead a horse to water.....
well it was about 40 plus pages for the equipment advice alone, I figure at least another 30 for legal advice and most wont be taken by original OP...again to OP im sure you are beyond your last straw that broke the camels back( and your wife) most here( not all) are sympathetic with your journey but you are at the end, dont go down with the ship without any fight, give it one more final try by consulting an attorney..ask yourself what do you have to lose but if any a consulting fee for the attorney..you can only go up from here, you know the worse case scenario ....
Someone should send a link to this thread to everyone at the ****ed up dealership. Perhaps the whole truth of this dilemma isn't getting to the top of management and/or ownership.
I wouldnt be surprised some commenters on this thread arent from the dealership and thats why the OP got the final answer as they see he is too passive on this issue...and if he earlier on involved an attorney or contacted corporate cat the outcome would have been more in his favor..also the OP can go on social media with his story and that would also find anyone else that got screwed and im sure once it hit social media corporate cat may even contact you on this issue..you have many avenues to go that are cost frre or almost free to get satisfaction..or your so wealthy you can take the hit of machine original cost, rebuild cost and mafia vig of $4000.00 to walk away..
Another thing to do is check with the BBB for other complaints about this dealer. It is free and I'd find it hard to believe Steve is the only one who they put through ringer. Lawsuits are also public knowledge. A lawyers office could see if this dealer has been sued before. Also if word got out about how they treated Steve and he was considering legal action, there may be others who would "come out of the wood work" with their displeasure with the dealer. Cat corporate certainly wouldn't want the bad publicity. You're worried about going after the big guy, the bigger they are the harder they fall. Look at the whole me too movement. A couple complaints against one of the biggest movie producers in Hollywood and he went down like the Hindenburg and many others are going down the same way. As was said, you have nothing to lose by consulting an experienced lawyer. Don't let them intimidate you. Look at this, they are Cat dealer and not even a member of the BBB. Also look at the complaint. https://www.bbb.org/minnesota/busin...-in-hugo-mn-1000013288/reviews-and-complaints
I've been trying to come up with a way to explain my problem with the lack of proper troubleshooting of the original failure the dealer saw. One way to say it might be like taking a truck in for a steering problem and the dealer says the alignment is off. They then "adjust" the toe-in and give you the truck back and five miles down the road a wheel falls off and you hit a car coming the other way and kills someone. Then they claim it wasn't their fault as the alignment checked out right when it was on their machine. If there is no action by the original poster guess we should all just file this away as a major loss of time and just make it a point to ignore any future requests for help from this person. We tried to the point some very good people have left the forum out of frustration.
Ken that is a very good analogy. I was also trying to find a good way to put it. Well said sir.
Well said Mr. Hanson
I talked to Ziegler caterpillar this morning, they are offering to cover the labor charge costs to rebuild my machine, not the parts cost. They are insisting that the pistons melting was caused by low oil pressure ,no lubricating the major components of the engine .That's about all they are going to do,said that if that isn't enough ,go see your lawyer!I told him that everyone who added comments on this forum, said that Ziegler caterpillar is at fault for not thoroughly checking out the radiator. He said that the low oil pressure was their only concern. I called my lawyer today, he is back from vacation and booked solid,so waiting for an opening ..
good luck, I think you have a good chance ending on a much better note than you have now...bring all your paperwork and a copy of this thread to him..in the mean time I would be calling cat corporate demanding satisfaction and see what they will do from their end and inform them you have an attorney and are ready to take legal action if a more satisfactory outcome can not be worked out...thats a free call if you make it..
to welder dave.. as to them not belonging to the BBB.. they don't have to. they are the only game in the whole state. thanks to cat for insulating all their dealers from any competition, this behavior is the result.
. Hell, they can't couple hydraulic hoses properly without stuffing a pump. So rebuilding an engine is away out of their league.
It would be nice to know how much the labor charges reduced the bill. And how much those parts added up to. I dunno, maybe getting the machine back by paying for the parts may be doable. Provided the parts are at dealer cost, they owe him at least that !
Wait now they are saying this last failure was due to low oil pressure? Or are they referring to the earlier one? If it is the first one that sounds very far fetched to me. How large are the passages from the block through the head and up into the rocker assembly. Unless this engine is different than what I recall the oil passage from the block and in to the head is through a dowel pin that also helps align the head to the block. As I recall that dowel has maybe an 1/8 inch hole through it! even if that oil passage was wide open I can not believe that there would be enough drop in oil pressure to cause a rapid failure. Maybe if you were working it at 100% load for several hours with out a break, but I don't believe you ever even ran it long enough to get it good and hot! I say first thing in the morning talk to a lawyer. You already know they have backed down from last weeks demand so they know they are at least partially wrong so no is the time to get that letter from a lawyer to push them a bit harder. If the lawyer charges, say $1,000.00, to write them a nasty letter and they drop the price $1,500.00 you just turned a $500.00 profit!
I am reserving my comments for awhile because I think someone that works there is monitoring this thread.
Olddirt,no they don't have to be a member of the BBB but it sure looks better if they are and shows they care about their customers. They aren't a little mom and pop corner store. By offering labor they are in essence admitting to some fault on their part but would never admit it. The fact their story changes is to your benefit. If they told you call your lawyer, do just that and call their bluff. My guess is they would try to drag it out hoping you'd just give up. The thing is, it doesn't cost a lot to file a claim and then they have to respond. May not even come to that based on the initial letter. I don't know your lawyer but when you talk to him make sure to ask if he has handled this type of claim before. If he hasn't ask if he can refer you to an attorney experienced in this type of claim either from his office or another office. It is important because an inexperienced lawyer say a real estate, divorce or tax lawyer might not understand anything mechanical and/or a repair shops responsibilities. In my case I had a student lawyer and got a decent settlement but still think if it went to court I would have got all my money back plus some legal fee's. I actually think if the student lawyer would have pushed the issue a little I could have got more. The guy that sold me the truck had a high priced lawyer from a big law firm. I think she may have intimidated the student somewhat. She tried in the meeting. You drove the truck for 2 month's, anything could have happened, etc., etc. Still doesn't explain how the brake pads are like new and the drums are way beyond worn out. However, if it went to court and the judge saw the split drum and I had my expert witness from the brake shop and also the person in charge of issuing DOT inspection licenses I don't think the shop would have wanted to go to court and risk losing their inspection license. You're on the right track now Steve. Talk to the lawyer and see what they say. Imagine if Cat corporate had to testify what procedures their authorized dealers are required to do. You could probably get that from Cat anyway or your lawyer could if need be.
Let them monitor it. They're the ones that will have to explain their actions or lack thereof. You trusted they'd know how to fix your Cat machine and they didn't.
to the op.. to think they weren't reading this (and laughing) from day one would be rather naive. welder dave.. they DO NOT CARE about us little fishies. this is all about them getting us to leave them alone with their large accounts. they really think they are too big to need us now.
Finning here doesn't even have a service counter.
If you want to get serious and mean I'll DONATE my time to explain how they screwed the pooch. I've won two lawsuits pro se plus did 99% of my divorce that way. Learned myself a lot I did!!
Steve, I don't think anyone from there would stoop low enough to look at this thread. It would admit they do not know it all. This thread was brought to their attention in Bloomington a long time ago. They showed NO interest in trivial matters like this thread.
I had some spare time tonight so I read through most of the 47 pages. Wow. It's so easy to get yourself upside down on an old machine like this. It's easy to point fingers after the fact, but I think the owner of the machine deserves a lot of blame here, but the dealer didn't do much better. This is a classic example of multiple people throwing parts (very, very expensive parts) at a problem and never actually fixing the problems. As a fixer of machines, perhaps my view is jaded, but this is how I see it: Seems very likely that the radiator blockage and overheating is what actually killed the original engine. The oil pressure loss was just a final nail in the coffin. So the OP throws a totally different engine at the machine and mixes and matches the parts. This creates a new issue with low oil pressure to the bottom end. The jetting oil at the rocker arms absolutely could have killed the motor. The oil takes the path of least resistance. If a passage is wide open, all the oil goes there instead of where it is needed. Now the Cat dealer has to sort out an antique machine with several simultaneous problems that has been hacked together by an amateur. They fixed the oiling issue but missed the original issue just like the owner did. It sure does seem like someone (especially a trained Cat mechanic) should have figured out the stupid thing was overheating. Burned up valves and pistons. What's that got to do with oil pressure? How do they explain that once they tested the injection pump? It has classic overheating issues. Burned up 6 and starting to burn 5. Is it a coincidence that those are furthest from the water pump? The OP screwed up, and he knows that. So he did a sensible thing and paid the experts to make it right. The dealer screwed up, but they don't want to admit it. I would absolutely hire a lawyer. How could they send the machine out without checking the water temp?
Exactly. Back in the day when I was at the tractor dealer any new tractor, new engine or engine O/H got time on the dyno to make sure it was right. By time I mean several hours at dang near full rated PTO HP.
It sounds as if they did a "parking lot run" w/ it.. Engine on blocks, a jug of fuel, a battery & a radiator or a hose stuck in the water pump.. no gauges.. Made sure it started.. revved it up a couple of times & that was it.. When my Co. does Govt engines.. the contract is written-up w/ an 8 HOUR CONTINOUS RUN at FULL LOAD.!!!! NO KIDDING.. & if FOR ANY REASON the engine is shut down.. the clock is reset.. AND>> Its verified by an Govt inspector.. theres a guy sitting next to the engine for 8 hours checking>> HP, torque, temp & oil pressure EVERY 15 minutes.. & checking for leaks.. We once got low on fuel & had to BEG the fuel co to come fill the fuel tank.. we were 7 hrs into an 8 hr run.. Luckily they came & topped off the fuel tank..
When installing an engine, even if it has been floor run, it should be installed in the machine and ran to operating temperature....with all engine pressures and temps checked. Sure an amateur started this, but it went to SUPPOSED professionals that are SUPPOSEDLY highly trained and skilled. When the engine was built, ran and installed by CAT, its their baby when it goes out the door. They should be standing behind their work and not passing the buck to the customer. All too often these things always happen to the little guy. If this was a large company that buys millions of dollars worth of parts, equipment, and service..........they would be rebuilding this on them.......no questions asked.
Very true I know of two cases like that. A 769C and a 980G. Did a little digging in old files just to be sure I was accurate with facts: One was a 3408 in a 769C truck. In March of 2001 with 13,700 hours on engine it was pulled and taken to dealer for rebuild. After it was put back in service it ran good till August of 2001, total hours used 650. That is when all hell broke loose and major failure with one rod laying on the ground behind truck and block almost split in two. Cat ate that one saying it was a bearing failure. Then in March of 2009 the 980 G was taken to dealer for "Before failure Rebuild" on engine and transmission at 18,622 hours. Machine came back and seemed fine. That was till 6/17/10 when it started to have a miss on #4 cylinder that was found to be a bent push rod. Cat had no real answer and suggested installing new push rods in that cylinder. Seem good again till 6/29/10. at 21.350 hours the #4 miss was back. That time due to one push rod making it down in to the oil pan I had to remove pan to retrieve it. That is when I found a broken piece of one of the retainer clips for the lifters/cam followers laying in the pan. Cat sent a man out to look at it and found he could not remove one of the lifters for #4 and also saw damage on cam. Loader went to dealer who installed a reman short block. This was on an engine rebuild with 15 months use and 2,688 hours on it! So yes a big outfit can get special treatment from a dealer, or at least fair treatment when there is a failure either of materials or workmanship.
2,688 hours on it! Sounds like my C9 for the D6T.........and CAT will do nothing. Customer just doesn't spend enough money with them to be considered for assistance.
Yes, I admit that I made my share of mistakes on my machine, but there's something just not right about this. Why should I ,after paying for the first rebuild at Ziegler caterpillar, expecting to have an engine with new parts and dependable ready for work,have to pay again for the same rebuild? To me it's like having a new engine put in an older car at a major dealership, having it fail, taking it back to the dealership and they will not fix the problem without payment first. Just not right!
NOW your getting it Steve..
Yes. You are right. I hope you have not signed anything regarding giving them the machine or any money.
Haven't signed anything or sent money. My lawyer said that it will come down to me proving negligence on their part,my expert mechanic witness against theirs letting an arbitrator decide.
I think you have a good chance of getting out of paying for most of the work they did and keeping your machine. You have no chance of them fixing the machine or "making things right". I'd forget about that. Get the lawyer to start harassing them and get the machine out of their shop. Then work on the bill. You may end up paying for any parts that were not damaged. That still leaves you right back where you started, with a broken machine. I guess you could then do another reman and this time fix the cooling system. If you drug it to the scrap yard, I'd understand.
cat will never let this go to court. don't get greedy, just ask for legal costs plus whatever they screwed up in that motor. somehow, you need to get that tractor home because if they think they will have to pay up you will most likely find a couple surprises that they left you and you should try to find them first. getbacks are.. well.. you know.
Should also send a copy of this thread and any emails and paper work from dealer to cat's regional rep. i worked in a ford dealership, once you get the reps and corporate involved things have a way of happening. A letter from your lawyer also helps. The dealer may have a history of screw ups with the company. Corporate does not like unhappy customers.
no matter what the outcome and you get the machine back, I would have a good mechanic take a look and make sure the dealership didnt sabotage it to go boom or screw with other items on it as they wont be happy letting it go...I know too many shady repair shops that have done that to get even with a customer that was in the right after they tried to screw them with $$..
You should get your machine back in proper running condition. Even if they put a good used engine in it. You paid for a rebuild at the Cat dealership not some fly-by-night backyard wannabe shop. Cat doesn't have dealerships like Maaco body shops that offer budget, standard and premium jobs based on how much you want to spend. In other words they are supposed to do a premium job and check everything before releasing your machine to you. They have to live up to Cat standards and that's why they are the authorized dealer. It's also a big part of why Cat is as big as they are. They charge a premium for this service but it is to give you piece of mind it was done right and should be as good as new. They shouldn't be cutting any steps out unless they were specifically told to or like another poster, they had the rad done themselves but at the same shop the dealer uses. If you don't want to pay for the Cat dealer to do it, go somewhere else. An arbitrator? Sometimes you can go to an arbitrator if both sides agree but it doesn't necessarily stop a lawsuit from being filed. Sometimes both parties can meet on their own but it's not common. Often once a claim is filed with the court, there will be a pre-trial meeting with a judge or an arbitrator where both sides basically lay their cards on the table to see if it can be resolved without having to go through the court. If the plaintiff isn't satisfied he/she can still pursue the claim in court. It can be settled right up to the time you're walking into court or even in court before all the testimony is finished. The court date can bring the bluffers to reconsider their position. You don't normally get all your legal costs back but if it is clearly obvious that the matter shouldn't have went to court and wasted the courts time, you can be awarded court costs and sometimes additional costs as well. Steve wouldn't have to worry about this since he spent thousands of dollars at the dealership and still doesn't have a proper running engine after month's and years of being patient. I can't see the dealer talking their way out of this. They can't even get their story straight on what caused the problem. Then they offer to buy the machine only to change their mind again and want to keep it along with $4000. Kind of pathetic really. They really should man up and fix what they were hired and paid to do!
Here's where I see the problem. Your expert against Caterpillar . An arbitrator or judge will likely believe Caterpillar over your guy. The other problem is how confusing it'll be to a non mechanic. Was it low oil pressure? Over heating? Did the new gauge fail? Did they install a new gauge? Was it aftermarket parts? Was it the wrong rocker shaft? Was the radiator plugged enough to cause the failure? Let me ask everyone on here what caused the failure???? I don't think anyone on here really knows. In my opinion I don't think he ever ran it long enough to overheat it with a plugged radiator or low oil pressure.
I'm thinking if they did their so called stall test, they started the machine and had the test done in 10 or 15 minutes. If it failed driving a cross a field before it did any work, there's no way they could have got it up to full operating temperature and thoroughly tested it. I think having a knowledgeable mechanic will be an advantage but so will having the official Cat overhaul procedure. I think they would have to prove they followed the procedure outlined by Cat. Cat has a procedure and manuals for just about everything to with heavy equipment from overhauling to how to get the best production. A judge or arbitrator could also question that thousands of dollars was spent at the Cat dealer to fix a Cat engine and they didn't or couldn't fix it. Offering to buy the machine and then wanting to keep it along with more money leads me to believe someone did come along after the fact and try to put all the blame on Steve and none on the them.
I reread my post and it sounds like I don't think Caterpillar is at fault. Not at all I just think it's not going to be easy to prove it it an arbitrator or judge.
If they charged you $1000 to fix it last time it would be your problem. But for $9500 it's become their problem. $4 and your tractor is close to extortion and attempt to take advantage of the weak. The publicity from this thread is going to cost more than $9500 lol
I agree with this. That's a lot of money to spend to have the so called experts not be able to figure it out. I don't think Cat corporate would be amused or a judge/arbitrator for that matter.
Ditto above 2 posts. The exact mechanical problem the judge wouldn't want to know. It's the running up the bill then saying this tractor is now ours is the issue. It's not normal in my experience to run the bill up and then let customer know they no longer own the machine. Diagnosis and estimates of final cost are normally explained in stages to let customer decide whether to proceed. In this case it doesn't appear to have happened. Early on, the reman was covering some of cost, what happened there? I can understand some of cats confusion, being in the middle of several peoples work. But as said, they took the job on, it's up to them to find the problem. Is machine bolted back together and running, have you seen it like this Steve? Or is it in crates, and these figures/we keep machine talk some kind of estimate, or write off speech?
John Shipp just said the big winner here: "The exact mechanical problem the judge wouldn't want to know. It's the running up the bill then saying this tractor is now ours is the issue. It's not normal in my experience to run the bill up and then let customer know they no longer own the machine. Diagnosis and estimates of final cost are normally explained in stages to let customer decide whether to proceed. In this case it doesn't appear to have happened."
Say what, Cat repairer saying they now own the dozer. Unless they have a legal contract stating that or a court order Steve still has ownership of that machine and should be free to remove it from their premises fixed or not. Anything else is called theft IMHO
I admit. its very confusing. They installed a new heat gauge after finding original gauge not working, cut vacuum line .I didn't run that machine more than very long, maybe an hour and a half .They said that that gauge is not very accurate . The gauge needle was higher than normal ,past the middle range ,but not overheating .I am thinking that the whole problem is associated with the radiator being plugged.
The machine is in their shop ,totally disassembled .Capital covered about 75% of parts cost for the rebuild #1 that Ziegler agreed to install. The warranty covered the quality of the workmanship on the rebuild, not parts. I don't see this as a parts failure, How can parts fail after 1.5 hours of use?Even aftermarket parts ,if you want to use that excuse, will not fail in that short of time period!
the cat dealer was suppose to give back a good running machine, the cat dealer should have tested the new engine long enough to guarantee that, they did not, the machine failed soon after being returned to the OP, so the cat dealer is on the hook for a failed repair no matter what the cause, that is very easy to prove to everyone..
Exactly!!! Hobbytime.
I don't look at this as caterpillar trying to run up the bill, They are offering to buy my machine ,deduct the buyout price of $4,000 from the original bill. That is one option that they gave me. Second option was to put the machine back together, bare bones ,deduct the transport costs,deduct the labor charge but I would still have to pay for parts going in,repairs on the head, gaskets, and radiator inspection and reassemble. That part I can understand as being my responsibility,but still out some money .#3option ist Their response to that is,we don't have any way of testing the engine under a load here. I posed that question to them. They did the stall test .ran it outside for a couple of hours, they said ,everything looked fine.
So, you are saying your D6 is all together and ready to be delivered ? If so, any warranty on it ?
Option #3 was to recore radiator install fees,reconditioned fuel pump, reconditioned camshaft and lifters,new water pump, new cylinder packs, reconditioned head,new bearings, gaskets, transport costs approximately $25,000.
No,still disassembled .
bull$hit!!!!!!!!!!!! they send the machine and a guy out back and drive the dam dozer for 5 hours to make sure it runs, whats 5 hours of pay for a helper at a cat dealer maybe a hundred or so bucks??? they are so full of it and you keep eating up what they say..its time for you to put your mad as hell face on and go after them...
That's insane. I'm in the wrong line of work. A local municipality has a Sterling truck with an L10 Cummins that needs a head gasket. Local shop quoted $20,000 for a complete rebuild.
This is on top of the first rebuild bill of$10,600
What??? They want to do all that to an engine that was rebuilt and other than the 10 minute half a$$ed test run they did has less than two hours running time on it???
S
Camshaft has been damaged, lifters also worn badly due to the lack of lubrication from rocker assembly mistake.
Good grief Steve ! $35600 total. What dismays me is that Ziegler is saying the radiator needs a re-core job. The service manager really should be in the back lot somewhere power washing equipment instead of running dealership shop. Wow ! what a bunch of imbeciles.
whats the dozer worth in good running condition in todays market?
So they "ran it" & it didn't overheat?? if not, then why do they need a rad?? OH that's right, the gauges didn't work.. This just keeps getting better.. so to speak.. THEY *** up & that's all there is to it.. So either it was a lack of lube that caused the problem or was it the radiator, that they didn't watch the gauges on OR shoot it w/ a temp gun.. while they were test running it.. Heck.. when I test run a customers engine, I compare the temp gauges WITH a temp GUN.. THAT WAY I can tell the customer about his machines gauge..
I have been told that if you can find one for under $20,000,you're lucky.
and I thought this couldn't get any worse?!
You need a lawyer. I can't believe the slack you have cut them so far.
You mean they rebuilt the engine after you had brought it to them for what has to be the second failure, as the initial failure was the one that started this whole store at posting #1, and they rebuilt it and did not correct the problem with the "claimed to be rocker problem". If that is what you are saying then any problem that cam about from this far fetched story is on them. They know the engine had been messed with by an untrained person. They should have made 110% sure every part they touched was correct for the application. I know you are not a mechanic but the story seems to change every time something is posted about this engine. Until someone can prove to me that this story about a mismatch between the rocker assembly could cause the oil pressure to be so low as to cause a major failure in only an hour and half or so of running I'm sticking with the BS claim on that one. Did they even check the oil pressure while they had it running to do this claimed stall test? If the pressure was indeed below spec's they should have noticed that in the first few seconds of running it and immediately shut it down to find the problem! Just in case this dealer doesn't know how to check oil pressure here is the chart off SIS: Note that this are MINIMUM PERMISSIBLE PRESSURES! I would personally start to panic if, after warming up even slightly, on an engine I had worked on the oil pressure at anything over 1,000 RPM that was less than 60 PSI! I would ask them for the test run sheet on the engine that shows the oil pressure, temperature, RPMs, and if they were serious the Boost Pressure and RPM at convert stall, hydraulic stall and then full stall. If they can't or won't give you that information be sure your lawyer makes full mention of that when he talks to the judge. If they did not make note of those things they are in my mind guilty of malpractice. It would be like a doctor doing a heart transplant and not checking you blood pressure or pulse! And if they come out with the story "The gauges on the dash read good" get that in writing because they had no way of knowing if they were accurate with out comparing the readings to a known good gauge.
So what did they do... let it sit outside idling for a couple hours??? That's about the worst thing for a rebuilt engine but could explain why it didn't overheat on them. LoL I had a Hino diesel truck and it could idle all day and the temp. gauge would barely move. Get driving it and it could cook you out in 15 minutes. Steve you need to dismiss EVERYTHING they are telling you! There are just feeding you a continuous load of total BS trying to manipulate and confuse you. I think it's working. The only thing you want to hear from them is that they are going to fix your machine for the money you paid for them to do exactly that. The fact the rocker assembly wasn't right should have been a clue to 99.99% percent of mechanics that they should thoroughly check EVERYTHING to do with the engine!
If they used their own equipment they'd have this hooked up while they checked it over and made sure it was ok..... Idk about y'all but when I'm starting a new motor I'm super sensitive to noises, smells, vibration etc. I even go as far as running them without valve covers to make sure it's all oiling properly etc. I don't let one leave my shop until it's been heat cycled a couple times, head/s retorqued if necessary, lash checked and I usually sacrifice an oil filter just to be sure. I damn sure don't want one coming back to me!!! Back in the day I'd set my hydraulic lifter valve lash on a SBC by feel as it ran. Then I got serious and it was all solid lifter from there . That was before roller lifters became so common.
A guy from cat corporate called today, admitting that they should have checked out the radiator more thoroughly ,that the radiator being plugged was probably the problem from the very first startup. They are admitting mistakes as I am .So where do we go from here was my question?They have agreed to install and cover the costs involved for the parts. My responsibility would be recore radiator, installation costs,and parts to replace camshaft and lifters, plus the original bill,or to forfeit the machine to them with a $0.00 balance.
That still stinks, but it is $4000 better than the first offer.
I'm the same way ... Run solid lifter roller cams & superchargers on most of my iron ...... Anymore a feller needs every advantage he can get . HeavyEquipmentForums If Steve's Cat D6 came in to our shop and we could not sort out the Cat engine trouble it would leave with a Detroit 4-71 under the hood .
Personally, I would jam a 6-71 in there.
I've got a fresh 8v71.....
Go easy fellers .... We don't want to tare the D6 Cat up . Cat D 6 C early 70's machine 160 horse power range ? I'm an International / Fiat - Allis guy . Hard to keep up on the off brand machines .
It's not turbo so the most it'll go is 318.... it'll be fine
N50's in a 6-71 would be close... we can paint it green and call it an 82 -20.
That would make it an 82-40 if it was green.
you should have a good running dozer at their expense at this point, I would think you paying for new radiator and any labor on that fair, as if the motor didnt cook and they found the real issue, you would be paying for the radiator and costs anyway..but you paid for a rebuilt engine at a cat dealer and thats what you should have at no additional costs for the engine part, plus the radiator and related expenses..thats fair..
Finally. Someone is finally making sense. I don't see how you could do much better than that. They basically offered to wipe the slate clean and start over. I think that's a fair offer.
Lets get back on track. Steve, first thing you need to do is stop admitting you made mistakes. You did initially but once it went to the dealer it was up to them to diagnose the problem and repair your machine. That's what you paid them for. The only thing you should be admitting fault for was trusting the Cat dealer to fix your machine. They are supposed to have the expertise and all the special tools like Junkyard posted. They still owe you a proper running machine. Cat corporate covering $4K makes me think they know the dealer screwed up. The dealer should be covering the rest. The dealer screwed up royally and are scrambling to try and get out of it. Keep the pressure on and don't back down. You've got them rethinking their position. Just this thread should arm your lawyer with more than enough proof they cut a lot of corners. If they fixed everything except the rad, at the very least you should get a discount on a re-cored rad (they most likely get a discount at the rad shop) and they should cover the labour for the extreme length of time they have had your machine. They should also deliver it no charge because if they had properly diagnosed it and fixed it in the 1st place, they wouldn't have to haul it back and forth. Their time is worth $100/hr.+. Your time, downtime and frustration is worth something too!
steve, listen to welder dave. he is right. your mistakes ENDED when you delivered that tractor into their "professional" care. remind them of that when you tell them you expect your tractor back running as they PROMISED.
Yea ,I am on board with that. The fact that I lost 3 weeks working time last fall before freeze up should not be forgotten.
Hobby time, I don't quite understand fully your post. Are you saying that they are responsible for the radiator recore expense, camshaft and lifters replace ,leaving me with the original bill on first rebuild??I am ok with the first bill only. They have to remember that I had to drag the machine across our field with our big tractor, load it up ,time lost not finishing the job last fall ,that has to be accounted for also .
That is exactly it Steve. That stuff should have been caught by them at the FIRST rebuild they did. That is why you had it taken to Zeigler. A CAT certified shop! You wanted a proper rebuild, not a so so rebuild by a fly by night shop. As so they should have checked EVERYTHING as they would have in any other rebuild. You deserve a running tractor. That is what you paid for.
Expecting them to recore the radiator at their expense is just wishful thinking. You would have been charged for it if they did things correctly the first time. If it were mine I would pay for it. Provided I could get a fair settlement in this fiasco. Just my opinion.
I agree but what would you call a fair settlement? I have lost a lot of running time with this machine .Another thing ,every time I asked for an update on my machine ,I was the one who had to call and inquire. Even though I asked for periodic updates, they would never call or email .
Even manufacturer's original warranty on a new machine specifically excludes loss of use so I don't think you can expect to get anything there. You can certainly mention these facts though. If you needed an engine rebuild then you pay for an engine rebuild, cam and lifters then you pay for cam and lifters (unless their screwup tore them up), you need a new radiator you pay for a new radiator but that is as far as it goes, you don't need to pay twice for anything. There should be a pretty good benchmark for how much each of those "should have cost". Additional transportation cost you can argue and fight over, I don't know about that.
Fair settlement for you may be a bit different for me. It is how we see things. If it were me and I needed a dozer and was in the situation you are, I would consider what it is going to cost me to get it home with a warranty on the engine. Keeping in mind all the self inflicted expenses that were not Ziegler's creation. Knowing that number I would start looking for anther comparable D6 and what that is going to cost to get it delivered to my farm. Again keeping in mind the new/ used will probably be buyer beware. It could be another money pit. That is how I would bring the ordeal to an end. I am guessing that getting the dozer back from Ziegler is what I would end up doing.
NO....the only new expense to you should be the radiator and any labor directly related to fixing the radiator, anything failed by a clogged radiator is the dealers fault for not properly repairing and testing the dozer to make sure all is good....you are getting a ton of support from both guys in the industry and others that have businesses and have dealt with these issues of having equipment repaired and all of them are on your side that you have a good running dozer coming to you from this dealer at no more expenses other than the radiator and some minor related costs....the dealer is already backtracked on what they want just with the resistance you have given them so far, enter your lawyer and all the proof they screwed up and it seems cat corparate is even on your side from the comments you provided from him, so for a little more aggravation you should end up on top of this in the end, dont give up and try to explain to the wife all is not lost and the flower is about to bloom in your favor..
Very often I would at least crank over an engine with in shut down mode with valve cover(s) off to see some oil flow before letting it start and also make sure I had around 30 psi on a good gauge before letting it fire up. The other option I did use at times, when it was available, was to connect a hose from an air powered oil pump to pre-lube an engine before even cranking it over!
It may have been missed but I asked yesterday if the cam and lifter charge was because they did not find them bad the first time they worked on the engine. If they delivered it to you they were in essence all the parts were in good usable condition at that time so if they are bad now I would say it is there fault for not catching the problem the first time. As for the radiator, yes that is your responsibility, but and it is a big BUT, you should not be forced to pay the dealer to re-core it! I would be checking around to find a radiator shop that can do the job for you. Darwin is only a bit west of the "Twin Cities" so I'm sure there are some good radiator shops near buy. It is very possible that a good radiator shop could clean the core and have it just as good as new. Even if it needs to be replaced the radiator shop could source a new core for much less than the Cat Dealer would charge. Heck just for fun give this outfit a call and see if they will quote you a price, I have not dealt with them but might at least give you an idea of what a core could be had for. If you were close to NY I would contact my local rad. shop. http://www.superiorcooling.co/radiator-core-for-caterpillar-3.html
Just don't buy an aftermarket radiator. I don't know if one is available, but they never fit or work right. Much better to recore yours.
They didn't go that deep into it. It was sent out as in good working condition .They only noticed the camshaft and lifters problem after they tore it apart the second time .They looked into the failure deeper the second time it came back
Steve it is not your fault they did not catch it the first time. As kshansen said, it was returned to you with all internal parts deemed good by them. If they are no longer good it is on them. I agree on the radiator being your baby. I also agree that you can get it fixed MUCH cheaper on your own. At least it will not have their 15% markup.
Okay did some looking online for you try calling these people seem to have a few very positive replies: Hillmyer Radiator Services Repair Auto Radiator Repair Service 15302 43rd St SW (320) 286-2404 Just outside of Cokato Minn!
Thanks, I have heard of them .I am going to call Ziegler caterpillar to get my radiator back to their shop .It is in Minneapolis right now. Thanks!
They didn't go that far into it?? You wanted a patch job?? so you got a patch job.. NO warranty.. That being said.. they should have noticed the over heat & oil pressure on the test run & notified you. IF you had said, "I'll take care of the radiator".. then thats on you.. BUT they didn't.. so that's on them.. and every other problem the IT created..
If the motor has been overheated, and it seem very obvious it has, you need to check everything. The head and block should be checked for flatness. The head should be checked for cracks. Valves and seats need to be checked for cracks. The coolant passages in the block and head also need to be checked for obstructions. Sounds like you are getting cam bearings. Don't let them throw some liners and pistons in the things and ship it.
I understand loss of use isn't covered by a warranty but often a loaner machine will be provided or some other kind of arrangement made if the machine will be tied up for an unusual length of time. Steve's dozer has been at the dealer for month's and month's and month's after their so called first attempt to repair it failed. That's why I think it's not too much to ask that the dealer covers the labor on the radiator. I think if Steve could pay under $2000 for the rad and have a properly running machine back on his farm would be reasonable. Several years ago the Cat dealer here wanted to try and break the union (parts guys are union) and all the parts were moved out of their warehouse and handled by a logistics company. When they handled parts internally they could tell you exactly when they should be in and track them all the way. Usually the next day if ordered before 4pm. When they transferred the parts department to the logistics company they couldn't give you any idea other than it could be next day or could be in 4 days, nobody knows for sure. One of their biggest customers (Sureway) was losing $50,000/day at one of their gravel crushing operations waiting on a piston for a 3412. I think it took about a week and 1/2 to get it. From what I heard they ate a lot of the cost of replacement parts after costing the customer hundreds of thousands in unnecessary downtime. The dealer went back to doing parts internally. Sureway is a huge customer but that doesn't mean the dealer shouldn't look after the small customer too.
"Sureway is a huge customer but that doesn't mean the dealer shouldn't look after the small customer too" not in cat's book.. big money talks big no matter where you go.
Sureway didn't start off with a big fleet. I'm just saying the dealer could admit they made some mistakes and keep the customer happy regardless how big they are. Steve isn't arguing over a $100.
I’m with most everyone else on here Steve, Ziegler should make things right and get you a running machine. Even if you told them “patch up the engine and get it back to me” ( which I don’t think you did) they should have at least warned you about all the things that needed to be checked out with a rebuild. We have a couple excellent independent mechanics around here that are probably more capable than any corporate shop, problem is most don’t have insurance for mistakes and a bill like this would sink them. That’s why major repairs go to certified Corporate dealers. If the guys on here warned you about all the things that would make the rebuild go south the shop should have too. The radiator, gauges, and anything that has oil running through it should have all been checked on an engine failure. You would think Ziegler had a gauge pack they would hook up during testing to do a stall test and make sure all vitals were correct especially on a dozer this old. I would fight them pretty hard. All you are wanting them to do is what you paid them for the first time. Did they ever mention or ask about the radiator or systems during the rebuild process? If so what did you tell them.
Thanks for the response .Nothing was mentioned about the radiator until they tore into it the second time.I and the shop manager were going over just what they had done to the engine the second time, not finding the cause of the engine failure, we were brainstorming what to do next ,did he mention pulling the radiator ,checking it out and finding the tubes 50%plugged with water scale and small stones. It was an afterthought that they pulled the radiator out..
They are covering most of the parts and most of the labor but I would still have to pay for the camshaft and lifters replace ,parts and labor. Also pay for radiator recore expense and radiator in and out labor charge ,still a pretty hefty sum of money. That is where are at now. It's going to have to sit up there for at least another two weeks ,we are on spring break vacation .They let it sit for a whole winter while I had to wait, and then I was the one who had to call and get updated, even though I asked for updates
Also ,as far as I know, they didn't check out the camshaft and lifters after pulling the head off the first time. Is that a standard practice to check out camshaft after finding pistons melted ?I don't know, I am just asking..
Steve I don't remember how long you ran it but I don't think it was long enough for a serious overheat. I have a Cat 980B loader with the same engine we use for snowplowing . It pushes a 18' snow box in a large mall. It always ran hot when used hard. We probably ran it into the red on the gauge 4 or 6 times. We tried flushing the radiator, new thermostat, etc. with no help. One day it started leaking antifreeze out of the orings around the pre cup chambers. We replaced the orings and the next time out they blew again. The engine didn't over heat either time. The orings were from Cat. I tried getting help from the dealer but they had no idea what it could be. I asked for a guy with gray hair but they've all retired. So I asked the question on here and got the answer right away. The oil cooler was plugged at least 70% with rust pieces!! That helped a bunch but after a while it started creeping up more and more. So I got a look at the top of the radiator and it was plugged with the same junk probably close to 50%. Anyways the reason for my long post is I have the same engine ran for many hours with a 50% plugged radiator and oil cooler. It NEVER scuffed a piston or had any trouble. I can't believe a 50% plugged radiator blew you engine in such a short time. I'm glad your getting somewhere with Cat. Keep after them and good luck!
That's what I thought too .Why would it fail after just a short time running?My worst fear is to go through all this rebuild again and have it fail agai!! I just CAN'T go through that again, even with a full parts and labor warranty. I am really hesitant to want to run it again!
To add to that thought, the engine oil cooler was new on new long block. I am having a hard time understanding how that engine would get hot and not show hot on the gauge! The service manager said that those gauges are not very accurate ,they can be off a lot!
I'll disagree those gauges are accurate enough to tell if your overheating.
We don't know if the water pump is working or internal passages are blocked or anything else. It got hot enough to melt a piston twice and burn up a valve. They ruled out over fueling.
Steve, why are you brainstorming with the service manager? He should be brainstorming with his mechanics and/or Cat not you. If you knew the problem your machine would have been fixed a year ago. When you took your machine to Zeigler BECAUSE of an engine problem they ABSOLUTELY should have gone over it with a fine tooth comb and checked everything to do with the engine. It's almost like you're second guessing yourself and looking for excuses to let the dealer off the hook. Just when we think you're understanding they are the ones who messed up you do a 180 trying to find something you did wrong. You paid the Cat dealer to figure it out and they effed up plain and simple. Stop apologizing and making excuses for them. If your engine is done right you won't have to worry but should have a warranty to cover the odd occurrence of something going wrong. I also think you need to stop talking to the dealer. It is painfully obvious they are trying to manipulate you and they're doing a very good job at it. If they would have put that much effort into fixing your engine you'd probably have 1000 trouble free hours on it by now! It is time to let your lawyer do the talking and/or writing!
and now you are going on "spring break"?? I am done with this waste of bandwidth.
I have seen 2 different 3306 engines run with the impeller separated from the shaft that didn't overheat unless loaded heavy, one in a 140G grader that only got hot pulling steep hills and a 966c when stall testing the transmission, they are tough and cool good. I have no idea what the problem is with your machine but the water pump should be looked at, only takes popping the cover off.
Does the 3306 have piston cooler nozzles?
I don't know if they do Shop manager said that the water pump is showing wear. I don't know how they measure wear but ,I think he mentioned clearance gap between impeller and housing being too much.He said it needs a remanufactured pump .
When my D6C showed evidence of needing a new water pump, it starting boiling over a bit, or should I say sort of slobbering out of the top of the rad pressure relief. Once the rebuilt pump was put on, the problem went away & has been fine ever since.
We live in the bold north country, still 30"of frost!
Now even more damning info is coming out. When did the shop manager know about the worn water pump, after your machine went back to them? You didn't run the machine long enough to wear out the water pump that certainly should have been checked. TAKE THEM TO THE CLEANERS!!!
That's a good question!!
Just to say a temperature gauge won’t register correctly if it’s not immersed in fluid. As to the rest of the story I’ve seen engines severely overheated that never melted pistons. To me it would seem the timing had to be way out of adjustment for an engine to fail that drastically.
Yes, I would tend to agree with you. I really don't think that the cause of the engine failure has been found yet.
The cause is very clear. Zeigler tried to cut corners and this is the result! Steve, you need to be telling this to your lawyer not just going back and forth on here. The sooner the better.
This is just my thoughts but it seems to me the more Steve talks to this Service Manager, the more the guy is making it obvious that they didn't do anywhere near what they should have done to make sure Steve gets a reliable and serviceable machine back, and Steve can use all of this as cannon fodder when it comes time to take them to the cleaners!
I know that Cat in St. Cloud has some knowledgeable mechanics. I suspect that they don't like this any better than anybody else. I wonder how much of this is management telling mechanics not to do any more than was absolutely necessary. So far there doesn't seem to be anybody that works there that professes to know anything about this machine. They have seen it setting there forever and know nothing about it. I think they have been warned of "patient confidentiality" and there is a stick being held above their heads.
I know that they have some very professional mechanics there but I have called in a professional mechanic from caterpillar to do an expert analysis of the engine failure cause. I just don't think that the engine should have failed ,melted pistons twice, in an hour and a half running time .They will have it done this week .
the one issue I have with that is he is a cat employee, will he give a truthful explanation or one that is favorable for the dealership...you should tell cat that you may have your own mechanic or you should pay one that you know to be there with the cat mechanic as he goes through that engine to keep him honest and have a pair of eyes working for you..
Obviously the service manager doesn't know who the "very professional mechanics" are or your machine would have been fixed properly. I agree with having a qualified independent mechanic checking it out or at least inspecting it along side the Cat mechanic so you have your own expert opinion. That said, I believe the dealership is still at fault. You paid them to diagnose and fix your engine and they failed to do that. Who are you supposed to go to who is more qualified than the Cat dealer? Has your lawyer written to them yet? Send a letter from your lawyer to show them you are serious! I can just see it now... well the Cat mechanic said it was because this and that and the owner should have noticed this and it's not the dealers fault, etc., etc, etc. Then you're going to be second guessing everything you did and thinking it's somehow your own fault and the dealer should be let off the hook. Then there will be 1000 more posts where you're looking for opinions on what to do. I as well as many others have been trying to guide you in the right direction but it is getting redundant. Sh-t or get off the pot. I don't think there's much more we can tell you.
You know, sometimes family can be a priority... And, my GOD this thread! I think this CAT dealer is not alone these days when it comes to guys like us who own antique CATS and not fleets with $100,000's at our disposal for repairs. We are back burner customers who WILL be taken advantage by dealerships full of clowns who don't have the skills to work on this older equipment. I knew Bob Ont very well, he was my personal go to guy for my D6C and 225, so much knowledge is being lost with the passing of guys like him, I'm not sure there will be enough knowledge around in ~20 years to keep these machines running. The guys at the dealerships today look upon them like antikytheran devices. No ports to plug in the computer diagnostic equipment to tell them exactly which widget needs replacing. No intuitive sleuthing to find the root cause. These guys may as well just ask, would you like fries with your boat anchor 3306?
Bob/Ont was the guru on the older Cats. He helped me numerous times with my 931B and made it very easy to understand. He was always willing to share his expertise and knowledge. I hope Steve's lawyer sent a letter and Steve comes back to give us an update. He just needs to be firm in his position and put some pressure on the dealer instead of second guessing himself all the time after talking with the so-called service manager.
The said thing is too many think that that computer with ET loaded on it WILL answer all the questions. In reality in most cases it only points you in the direction to go looking. You still should be able to know how to test things to confirm what the real problem is that is causing the malfunction. Of course you can just replace one component at a time till the problem disappears! But could be the actual problem was just a poor connection that cleaned itself when you unplugged the old relay or sensor and plugged the new $367.95 new one in! But it now works and the customer is happy and the dealer got his money so everyone thinks the computer solved the problem!
I think that good mechanics do know that the computer does only point them in the direction to look. That being said I also think that not all mechanics are good.
Any updates?
Nothing new, I am going to meet with the product support guy on Monday to go over the results of the professional failure analysis report that is ready to be reviewed. We will see what they found !preliminary results of the engine failure was caused by an "air lock" in the engine resulting in the water temperature gauge to give an incorrect reading when in fact the engine was running much hotter than was indicted on the gauge.This causing the cylinders #1and#6 to fail prematurely on the second rebuild done by Ziegler caterpillar. We will see!!
They also said that the water pump is shot and was not circulating the water through the system property ,also radiator 50%plugged and needs to be cored .
None of which are problems of yours. Radiator should not have made a difference until you put it to work. Air lock is their problem, they filled the system. They should have checked for proper circulation in the test run.
Isn't it common knowledge with Cat engines (especially D8H's) that you have to make absolutely certain to bleed any air out of the cooling system when filling it. I think some engines even have bleeders to help with this. I think they are still grasping at straws and if they couldn't even make sure the cooling system was properly bled they have no business working on a lawnmower engine let alone a Cat. UNBELIEVABLE!!!! This is ABSOLUTELY their fault and they owe you a proper running engine with no costs to you. Get your lawyer on it right away. I've heard of incompetence but this takes the cake!
Adept Ape who works at a Cat dealer has a video on vacuum filling engine coolant, which should work for anything no matter how hard to bleed. It is apparently the industry standard now for EGR coolers and whatnot. I agree a 50% plugged radiator is not going to overheat on a less-than-fully loaded tractor until a lot of dirt is moved in a short time. Probably never on a machine that is used for fine grading, brush, etc. I just got back from a job with a generator with NO FAN and it took it a good 15 minutes for the bottom hose to even start to get warm under medium load.
I've filled a million Cat engines with coolant using a bucket and a funnel. Never had an issue. Run it until the thermostats open and you're good to go. This expert is not inspiring confidence.
Wow, from the initial findings, I don't see how Steve should be on the hook for any of this Ziegler CAT debacle, or should we call it a boondoggle?
from the evidence so far im surprised the dealership isnt offering to rebuild the engine and fix all for free as the cause of the engine failure is looking 100% cats fault, if this went to court and the 3 ring circus of a dealer is presented to a jury they would award all kinds of good things to the original OP including down time of dozer and OP aggravation expenses( all the time spent on trying to get his dozer fixed) , alot more cost to the dealer than just getting it fixed...I hope you go for the jugular on the dealer, anything less they dont deserve....
Right on Hobby.. "Its obvious to the casual observer" what has happened.. that's IF we're getting the full story. IMO
Agree on the idea that a partially plugged radiator would not cause a catastrophic engine failure in a short run across a field doing some minor pushing of dirt. And if it was going to be causing a problem they should have caught it when doing the test run and stall checks while it was at the shop! Give me a break that cooling system if working at 100% should have little trouble maintaining correct temperature when working at 100% load on a 100ºF day unless the operator was so dumb as to be running it fourth gear while trying to push a full blade of dirt. I always tried to measure the amount of coolant I put in an engine, at least to know it was close to the amount that the book called for if I could find that information. It's one thing if the book calls for 12 gallons and you just drained and refiled the system with fresh coolant to not get the full 12 gallons back in as there might be places that did not drain 100%. But on a major tear down that included replacing liners you should be able to get very close to the 12 gallons. Might have to start and let it warm up till thermostats opened to get that last couple gallons in. And don't get me started on the BS of the water pump being a little out of spec's, that's just one more example of either poor work procedures for not checking it on a machine that had a possible over heat problem or just not careful test running after assembly. I'm suspecting that the guy who screwed this machine up is someone's relative or drinking buddy and they are just trying to push the blame off on to someone else!
well thats also true, we are getting just the OP side of the story, I dont think he would leave out important details, but anything is possible, it could be he finally woke up and figures the dealer is bending him over a barrel and giving it to him dry and now hes ready to fight for what he deserves..a good running machine...at no further cost to him..time will tell and its been an interesting ride so far... many times it takes the whole thing to soak in till the OP digests it and goes from beaten down emotionally and financially to the raging lunatic he should have been by getting constantly screwed over by the dealer and now its the dealers turn to get beaten..hopefully that is the real story and the OP finishes on top...hey you got one hell of a cheering squad in your corner Mr Steve...dont stop now...
The full story..... ? If it looks like a duck and it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck...... chances are it's a duck.
This just comes down to an individuals personality. Some ppl fly off the handle at every little slight, some never say a peep, most of us will take some kind of beating before we snap. With myself, I'm finding as I get older, I tend to snap a lot quicker
[QUOTE="etd66ss, post: 742144, member: With myself, I'm finding as I get older, I tend to snap a lot quicker [/QUOTE] Me to mate. Snap first then ask questions later. Age says " put idiots on back foot first"
LOL..agreed...I can understand OPs reluctance in the beginning to make waves as I understand hes in a small town setting and didnt want to rock the boat and hoped the dealer would do the right thing, till it became evident he was going to take it deep and hard with no lube...as time goes by my patience for poor service has slipped down to almost 0, and you would be surprised what becoming a hard nose im not gona take it attitude and (now with technology and social media ) and the threat to go public with a problem gets the wheels greased usually rather quickly...
I don't know how internal passages could be blocked, anything is possible, I guess.The longblock engine from Capital Exchange looked clean when I got it,everything bolted up nicely , no noticeable problems. It will be an interesting meeting tomorrow with the results of the professional failure analysis report. I still think that the failure has not been solved.
I agree with you on the failure issue Steve. In reference to the Wesj post you quoted. I don't remember you mentioning a burned up valve?
Is your lawyer going to the meeting? No way I'd go somehwere to get ganged up on at this point. Think of all the people they will have to testify against you then.... "Oh yes, he agreed that the dealership did not cause this issue" x3-4 people. Certified mail communication only from this point
I will get the full report tomorrow morning. I am pretty sure that they mentioned that the head needs to be sent in ,exchanged for a new head .The valves showed extreme heat damage, valves were starting to melt .I will find out tomorrow morning.
Even if your lawyer doesn't go, don't go alone. Take a friend, wife...somebody. Even if all they do is listen. In Oklahoma you can record a conversation without consent of other parties. Not sure in Mn. If legal I darn sure would.
You can record anything as long as you mention it. If they object, NO MEETING! DEFINETLY take someone along, preferably your lawyer. If 75% of what you've told us is true, they should be discussing how they're going to fix your machine. Steve, do not go to the meeting alone under ANY circumstances! I say this based on how you've reacted on here. You don't want to admit any fault on your part and I can just see the dealer and whoever else wearing you down trying to somehow make you believe you did something wrong. The only thing (without knowing at the time) you did wrong was trusting them to fix your engine. It's not that you're a bad guy but just the opposite, I think you're too nice and in this case nice went out the door month's ago. You shouldn't say ANYTHING!!! Let them explain their incompetence. That's where paying your lawyer would be well worth it. It almost sounds like they left a rag stuffed in the coolant passage and forgot about it. I only say this because I've seen it on dirt bikes where people have left a rag in the intake when cleaning the air filter and forgot about the rag.
If the radiator was plugged badly enough to toast the fresh engine, surely the tractor would have been chronically overheating prior to the initial failure, or have I missed something?
To heck with just recording, set up your phone and put this on Facebook Live or live stream the meeting to YouTube. That'll get their attention when they know the world is watching.
Steve, I have seen some very coolant related overheated engines and NEVER seen a melted valve! A melted valve would HAVE to be caused by combustion temps extremely high. Again their story is NOT jiveing with the symptoms!!!!
WOW.. a LIVE STREAM of the meeting would be awesome..
Come on Steve, we are all on the edge of our seats waiting for the latest Zeigler lies.
Just say you're setting up a conference call with several other machine owners and mechanics so nothing gets missed.
Meeting must not have went well. No news yet.
Here is the full report from the professional failure analysis team that spent the whole day at Ziegler caterpillar in St Cloud one day last week.I hope all 9 pages uploaded! If not ,I will try again . Meeting went well. We came to a good agreement.I am getting my machine back with a full warranty on the engine and parts, All new original caterpillar parts, new pistons ,liners,camshaft and lifters ,new water pump, new head,all the labor included, plus delivery. I am responsible for the radiator recore expense.
that's better than I expected
View attachment 1797 CH
That's awesome!!! Arent you glad you didn't just roll over with their first offer?
More pictures
Yes I am, all thanks to you guys!
Good deal Steve. Sounds like you are gonna come out alright on this.
Hmm. So how was a supposedly remaned engine full of scale and core sand? And the liners were out of it 3 times and no one noticed? I thought the oil cooler was new with the reman engine? I feel like every answer brings up 10 more questions.
Lets have a video of it working. We are all waiting for it. I'm glad they came to the plate. Sounds like this mess finally got forced on to the right person whom could and would make the right decision. I do wonder whom gets blamed behind the wall?
Now that it seems to be headed toward a positive outcome....who's going to come up with the next train wreck...? I'm glad it worked out. Whether it seems like it or not we were all pulling for you.
Careful... We lost at least one great HEF member on this train wreck.
Maybe some of those CAT people actually WERE reading this thread! LOL
The outcome that was achieved IS what WAS supposed to take place THE FIRST TIME the engine/machine was dropped off.. Happy for you Steve but what a nightmare.. Be sure to get the "warranty" IN WRITTING!!!! & be sure to ask if the warranty is ONLY w their scheduled service..
Steve I'd really like to read the full report. I've tried looking at your pictures for 15 minutes now but can't figure out what's what
I will try to send the report again!I know, it's hard to read.
Good for you Steve. Your patience paid off. What a strange chain of events in the entire rebuild procedure from the very beginning with Capitol's re-manufactured long block. Who is "the professional analysis team" ??
They are a professional team of analysts who are involved in solving problems associated with an engine failures where the cause is in question, undetermined.
Some more pictures
One more page
They are still blurry.
They really should be scanned in a copy machine tbh...
Try againto TTACH]
Full size
It is readable now. Looks like a very complete analysis was done.
How could the reman block have 2" of sand in the liner bores? Would that not have been taken care of when the block was remanufactured in Denver? Did someone put sand in the coolant system filling up those cavities at the same time wearing the crap out of the impeller? I'm a bit confused by this sand...
I have a feeling that reman engine just had a set of rings installed and sent out the door. Sleeves were never replaced.
All of the white scale will flake off and settle out like sand. Its hard mineral and abrasive. Poorly maintained cooling system. When backyard joe mechanic dumped in the coolant from the first engine swap im sure the whole bucket went in. Even the crunchies in the bottom... This whole thing could have been avoided IF somebody would have put together in their head the following. If garbage comes out of the cooling system when you drain it there is more inside. Look in the top before you dump coolant in. What do the cores and inside look like? Mechanics 101... Next place to bang down a door and start shaking people, capital exchange. The lack of oiling is on them. All of this is unreal!!! I cant wait till the back half of the tractor rears its head.
Not an excuse, but I don't recall being able to see the tubes of the core on my D6C from the filler neck...
Somebody who has followed this more closely clue me in on what is happening here. So we have an engine with a partially clogged radiator (which I might have reused on a normal repair if customer budget dictated, it doesn't look that bad for light duty work) We have some white scale in the engine which indicates it was not torn down all the way but the bottoms of the liners are not where much (any) heat is dissipated. We have some remarks about a misaligned passage causing low oil pressure and poor piston cooling jet flow but that happened before the last rebuild, correct? As far as I can tell the problem happened driving across an open field and it was related to piston melting/seizing and/or valve burning? But the remarks also say the nozzles and timing were correct so why was the top end burning up? Do I have the facts wrong or is this everybody else's understanding?
My take is that there was a parade of events that caused catastrophic overheating as stated in the report. A cooling system with a number of issues including the worn pump impeller. I have never seen valves that badly warped. Cracked yes, warped like those, no. Good grief ! Take notice of the bleed valve being plugged comment that indicates the air pocket was trapped forever.
Air pocket in cooling system, coolant flow issues, etc. would cause it to warp or break a head and/or gasket. Not melt a piston or damage valves. Something does not add up here from the info I have seen.
Birken, It does explain it very well. The head having no coolant was nuclear hot, which explains the valves that were warped. But the block having coolant in it was much cooler, which is why the pistons did not look that bad.
So apparently the last people to work on the engine(dealer mechanics) did not do a proper bit of trouble shooting or they would have found 90% of the problems. Lacking doing that if they had just done a fair job on test running it after they had assembled it the problems would have reared their head before they gave it back to the owner. Just hoping this time they do a proper repair and give it a good long test run to be sure it is ready to start moving dirt!
But was the head itself damaged in any way? What would you think about reinstalling a head subject to such abuse? This is why I always make 100% sure I have coolant circulating back through the water pump immediately after starting something that has been drained, and I always make sure the thermostat opens and the water in the radiator is topped up from any air that may have been released when the stat opened. Mechanics 101.
Just to add to that thought. The district manager said that they probably could have caught the over heat problem during the stall check and running it outside, IF they would have used a cylinder heat shot gun.He admitted that they didn't do that .
Look back at my post #853 on page 43.... I still think they may have done some of the damage themselves.
CalvinJim I agree, you did it in point 4, post 853. I would be very meticulous in checking that head and block for cracks after this overheat. Also checking for warpage. Steve, As was stated earlier. Make sure the warranty and all the conditions and clauses are spelled out, explained and documented.
I'm so happy for Steve! Hopefully the rad won't be over $2000. Even though it's a little more to spend he should have a good running machine in the end. Big kudo's to Cat for having a non biased and experienced failure analysis team! I don't think there's any way Zeigler would have wanted to go to court. It wouldn't surprise me if someone from Zeigler did see this thread. They sure don't come across as very professional and I wonder if anybody at Zeigler is going to be looking for another job??? Just curious if Steve went to the meeting alone or went with someone else? Did the Cat team basically run the meeting? Somebody was obviously on Steve's side for a change instead of just us on this lowly forum. LOL
After all this time and effort by people on this forum I can only hope that Steve finds a way to post up a video of this machine pushing a blade full of dirt just so we can have some feeling that the work was worth it! Also hope that anyone new reading this has learned how important listening to people with experience and giving accurate replies to the questions they put forth is to the successful completion of a repair. No one on this forum had anything to gain financially from this situation, unlike the dealer or outfit that supplied the replacement short block. So if someone said to check this or that or do this test, it was not so they could profit but understand the problem better.
Any head that was overheated like Steve's should be scrapped.
I am starting to understand how MOM felt when AS the world turns went off the air
Post # 1062>> new head.. Lol> olfolks
I don't see why the head needs to be replaced if it's not cracked. Mag particle check or die pen testing is a must. Surface it, new guides, check that the seat have not sunk, leak test, etc.
I don't know what all those tests and work would cost ? Any idea ? Just curious. After all the mental turmoil Steve and his wife have gone thru, I'm certain he would want a new head, especially after he saw the photos and reading the report of what the head alone went thru. Also the pros that did the analysis recommended a new head. I am guessing its going to be Zieglers expense anyway.
All those tests are standard practice anyway when you rebuild something. I guess if it survived all that abuse it should be the strongest head Cat ever made.
I'm not a mechanic but it was obvious to me that the dealer was trying anything and everything to try and shift any responsibility off themselves. I'm sure the Cat team felt the same way and came to the right conclusion. I've been shafted before so when it's blatantly obvious someone else is going through it, I'll try to help them as much as I can. Without this forum, I think Steve would have had a much more difficult time getting to the same conclusion.
wow, is that in writing? and before you agree are they detailing exactly what your new expense will be? if they are agreeing to that then that is a sure admittance from the dealer they screwed up big time, I would have them write that up and give it to you signed then tell them you want to radiator covered for all the time you didnt not have use of your dozer and all the aggravation they gave you and on top of that they were ready to bend you over raw, you deserve compensation for that and if it went to court you would get more....but its your call to determine if that deal covers all your pain....another question, they are going to let the same idiots try again to rebuild it? will the team that analyzed this failure inspect or sign off on the 3rd rebuild and testing to make sure its done correctly or can you have it shipped to another dealer that knows how to rebuild an engine? if in fact you have to pay anything more I would have in writing no further payments till the dozer is proven to work as it should and you should work it for a few months till you make any more payments to the dealer...
I think your right about getting "MORE" in court.. & I dont know how much p-u & delivery charges are BUT... Don't you think it equals out?? Rad. VS delivery?? I think he did alright for not having to GO TO COURT.. { personally, I'm w/ you Hobby but that's just "US"} Steve.. what was your ORIGINAL BILL?? when you picked it up/it was done the 1st time.. You know.. when they shoulda replaced the rad. to begin with.. Lol
Pretty close to $10,200!!!
You have to consider court costs involved! My lawyer gave me some good advice ,he said try your best to work out your differences between parties involved.They were willing to help out alot,but I am putting forth also .Try to live by the golden rule, "Do unto others as you would have them to do unto you "Great bible passage!
I agree with that and the dealer tried its best to fuk you over the hardest they could till you called them on it with some backing from this thread...did you forget what they tried to do to you???? so the only reason they are caving in now and trying to make you happy is they would get their balls nailed to the wall if it went to court, and I agree with your lawyer and others to settle out of court, but you can do alot better and you need to remind the dealer of what they were trying to pull and also let cat corporate know what the dealer was going to pull as that all goes against cat reputation and I doubt the corporate bean counters would want that and with social media reaching around the globe, so will your story of a cat dealer screwing you over..what I would call fair is you get your dozer back in top running condition with a full warranty on the engine delivered to your door and nothing less for not 1 more nickel.I bet if you put that on the table and tell them if there is an issue with that you will take your chances in court,im sure they will cover the radiator too..at this point you have nothing to lose by calling them on that...yes you probably could get some more in court and also get legal fees covered by the dealer, but if you can get what I said then you can give up any extra and legal fees...
Wasn't it you that posted this hobby???
that was before they caved and gave you almost everything you wanted, now that they showed 100% at fault, screw them and go for everything, before it was still a battle who would pay for what, this is how litigation goes, you keep getting a little more at a time, the dealer just folded their hand and you win and they know it, so you deserve the whole thing go and take it...if the report came back against you and they were still gona fight you then you have to decide at what time of the battle is satisfactory..but now you have them by the balls so squeeze hard, they lost and knew they were screwing you, so now its all in your favor show no mercy, because the dealer now knows with that report from cat will kill them if this hits court..so yes now I know they are done I changed my mind and would want them to pay it all..you took enough aggravation and im sure lots of stress at home with the mrs, so its your payday , if you wanted to really kill them goto court, but you can get more without going to court so having them pay for the radiator and related expenses is your compromise not to goto court.. just look at the change of events in the last few weeks it went from you losing everything and paying them $4000.00 more..they were looking to rape you and now they are offering to rebuild the engine with all cat parts and give a warranty..why do you think that is?? because they know they screwed up and were going to take royal advantage of you, but the evidence from cat people that did the report showed and proved the dealer wrong..the dealer didnt think twice before trying to hurt you, so its only fair you make the dealer feel a little pain back.. now if the dealer from the beginning was truly trying to work with you and was willing to cover the damage they did without trying to take your dozer and make you pay more then yeah you paying for the radiator would have been fair, but since they are proven wrong and tried to hurt you. all bets are off, go for the jugular..
The OP is still going to have to pay for something. He brought them a broken engine. They tried to fix it once. Now they are going to fix it again. It's not like he brought them a brand new engine and they screwed it up. He brought them a screwed up engine and they screwed it up again. The OP is still on the hook for getting it from broken to fixed. The failed attempt should be wiped clean, but they don't "owe" him a new engine.
I would agree that since they tried to bone Steve up the rear by offering to take the tractor off his hands and he pays $4000 or whatever it was, the gloves are off. They would get their asses handed to them in court for that! CAT corporate ought to look at this dealership and decide if they want them to keep representing CAT, that is what I would be asking.
He should try to get everything covered but a lawyer is a few thousand a day in court and even if he wins everything, it's very rare to also be awarded all your legal fee's. I think Steve might get compensatory damages in court too but anything can happen. A lot of times it depends on the particular judge and who they feel sympathetic to.
Good for you Steve ! The world needs a lot more people with your belief and attitude. It is no wonder to me why you took all this in stride and got really decent results from Ziegler. I live by what goes around comes around.
the OP brought them a broken engine agreed and he paid to get it fixed, so he already paid to have it fixed and then the dealer blamed the OP for the 2nd engine failure and wanted to screw him big time and for more money, so for that and all the time the dealer had the dozer that we now know for fact the dealer screwed up the 2nd engine they should also compensate for all the lost dozer time, so having them pay for the radiator can be considered their punitive damages for the dishonestly from the dealer, they plain out lied to the OP and wanted to take further advantage of him, this can be considered fraud on the dealers part, so if the dealer wants to push it, this can easily go from civil to criminal quite easily...I would even be tempted to go to the state district attorney and see if they would prosecute the dealer or parties involved for fraud..
I think it would be a little different if the dozer was used as a source of income (owner/operator) and the owner lost work because of the downtime. I don't disagree that Steve shouldn't have to pay anything but I think it would be better if he got an agreement and a specific date that his dozer has to be on his property in perfect running order. Setting a court date will likely be about 3 month's away and even if Steve wins everything the dealer could stall around even longer. In fact winning in court doesn't guarantee you get paid. Sometimes you have to take further steps ($$$) to enforce the judgement. I think it's one of those times you have to pick your battles. If Steve can get the rad done for under 2K, I think is not too bad of a trade off. Also a lawyer will want money up front to go to court and no guarantee on the outcome. He could look into fraudulent actions by the dealer but that wouldn't result in any money in his pocket.
Getting the machine back together and running well is the first thing, as welder Dave says a written date for this would be constructive. If they fail to deliver or jerk Steve around any more, sure he might swap to "eye for an eye" and say to h%ll with it, roll the dice or whatever. For now, while Zeigler acting in a professional manner, get a date, get a warranty, get machine back running and tested. Pay for the rad if that's what it takes, paid when machine is back up and running of course. Post long vid here for further happiness.
I have been following this thread but have not read every post. That being said, I sure hope that they provided you with a loaner machine to use at your disposal???
No Loaner. Just the run-a-round for eons.
your missing the point that the dealer wanted to steal Steves dozer because they screwed up..they wanted to take the dozer after he paid over $10,000.00 to get it fixed and they screwed that up and then wanted him to pay $4000.00 more to call it even..so your ok with letting the dealer do that??? till Steve fought back and now the ball is in his court...this has gone past civil and is now criminal if he wanted to press charges, ill bet the state district attorney would take to case and that would also get him his dozer and $$ back with no cost to him as the district attorney would be acting on Steves behalf, no private lawyer needed..so yeah I dont think Steve should be made to pay a nickel more to get back a good working dozer...
No, I'm not missing the point. I have been strongly encouraging Steve to take the matter to court. I mentioned looking into fraud on the part of the dealer which could possibly result in criminal charges but might not have any money exchanged. Maybe getting a complete new rebuild (less rad) with full warranty is partly because they tried to screw him over? I didn't see the settlement agreement. I don't think Steve should pay anything either but he's already been without his dozer for over a year. Anything can happen in court and if Zeigler had good lawyers could drag it out for a long time even if found 120% at fault. Steve might prefer to have his dozer back in 30-45 days max. and be able to use it rather than gambling he might get more through the justice system but have to wait another 6 month's or more to get his dozer back. I am positive he is sick of the whole long ordeal. I would also hazard a guess that the full rebuild agreement has a clause that it is not an admission of guilt on the part of the dealer. More of a an act of goodwill to the customer. Cat is likely picking up part of the cost as well because it is one of their dealers.
I wonder, when the time will come that CAT corporate will instruct all their dealerships to no longer support classic machines? It seems odd in the first place that a dealership will even work on a machine that is ~50 years old. Try going to a New Holland dealership, or any other and getting that kind of work done on a 50+ year old machine, they'll tell you to go away.
at this point it looks like its out of the dealerships power for making any further calls and corporate cat is now involved and sees whats going on and is probably instructing the dealership what todo, as this does impact corporate cat..the final decision will be Steves and what he can live with and what he thinks is fair in the end, we are just the cheering squad on the side lines with no skin in the game..
Mate, I can still buy new parts for my 89 Ford Versatile which was made before New Holland took over and ceased production in 1990.
One of the advantages Cat has over most other makes is they have parts for old machines and there's a lot of old cats still operating because of it.
She's an older machine but she sure is attractive!
Kinda like my wife!!
I think that in many cases they have accomplished this by charging so much for service that it costs more to fix an older machine than it does to just buy another old machine that works a little better. This kind of attitude keeps a lot of independent shops busy. A lot.
We have the old saying ......." Fix it rite but don't spend any money on it ".
It sure gets me plenty of side work. I could stay covered up on older iron. Even dealing with people who want to patch things up.
Parts is one thing, but getting a dealer other than CAT to take on a job like Steve's is much harder, from my experience anyways. They want to sell you a new machine well before they will do any work on a 50 year old unit.
CAT builds it's entire business on solid machines built to last, product support and customer satisfaction. Their parts supply chain almost has no peers. I ordered a steering clutch for a 47 D2 at a particular NW dealer and thought I would have to wait for a month or two... had the clutch the following day. I would think that if CAT has a dealer that is not performing to their level of expectation... some serious fecal matter may hit the oscillating, rotating air mover on a corporate level. Especially if the entire entity starts to suffer from warts due to one or two.
What is a now a large independent repair and parts shop that started in 1927, used to be the Cat dealership back in the 50's maybe into the 60's. Don't know what happened but Cat can take dealerships away.
Yeah, you can lose your dealership. John Deere is pretty bad about that. They more or less phased out all the small dealers and gave the big ones a bigger piece of the pie. But, things are a lot different now. The dealer model is more or less obsolete. In the internet age, an independent shop can access all of the parts, information, and special tools that a dealer can. Companies like Deere fight tooth and nail to keep independent shops from fixing their computer controlled equipment, but it's not sustainable. Right to repair will eventually prevail. Today, the dealership exists to sell equipment, parts, and do warranty repairs for the big spenders who buy new fleets of new equipment. If you took an old 2 cylinder or even something like a 4020 to the local JD dealer, you'd have a hard time find an old grey beard to work on it.
Have been seeing the issues with dealers near here. Farm tractor shops are closing pretty often, being bought out by the Corporate boys that have leverage and $$$ to set new machine inventories and discounts to move them. Just lost Larson Eq. Jefferson City.
Corporate takes out little guys, refuses to hire anybody that knows what they are doing. Good time to be an independent repair shop.
X2
Just wondering how Steve is making out with getting his dozer fixed properly?
Me to.
Where did he take it this time ?? Oh never mind you mean ziegler is supposed to fix it right....
My dozer is being put back together. I brought them the radiator on Monday morning,that was expensive!!$2,640 but they had to sandblast the tank,new core ,should never give any problems .Todd, shop foreman said it's going together well. He said one head bolt streched torquing down, so he didn't want any issues with the head, replaced them all .Should get it real soon.
So you're dealing with the shop foreman now and not the ???? service manger... 2 thumbs up!! Sounds like things are going good for you finally and they are taking every precaution to make sure it's done right. I have feeling Cat came down on them hard to fix their mess.
Amazing to read this after all that has happened previously ! Perhaps they are doing it right this time.
do you know if corp cat is still keeping an eye on whats going on? and if the team that looked at the blown motor is giving any support with the rebuild and proper engine testing and break in? thats the most important before you get it back..
Don't know if they are watching what is going on!I would think that they would be involved being they spent the better part of the day assessing the machine!
I would think the dealer had their azz handed to them by Cat.
Any videos of it working yet?
Ziegler caterpillar called, said that it is ready to be delivered! Going to get it this week .They said that they ran it for a couple of hours outside again, checked each cylinder for temperature changes ,all seems ok. We will see what happens when I get it back, how it runs.
you should personally go to zeigler and run if for an hour or so under load and drive it around before delivery to make sure its running correct..and if they have a problem with that then something is not right..especially with the history of their repairs..
I'll try to make a video of the machine running when I get it back. It's very difficult though!!
Very hard to upload
If everything is working properly open up the champagne and have a toast to HEF... and Cat for stepping up to the plate for you!
STILL.. NO dyno run?? Wow.. they must trust their work...{snicker}
I hope they at the least did a few converter and hydraulic stall tests to run it right up close to max temperature on both and then ran to cool it down and repeated a few times. If they painted the engine I would not let them hand it back to you if there was any paint left on the exhaust manifold. If they don't work it hard enough to burn off the paint it has not really been worked!
They are very confident that they have the found the source of the engine failure, radiator and worn water pump. We shall see!!
I had a long chat with a friend in the Cat world the other the day and was told that Corporate Cat was not involved in the settlement in any way. It was Corporate Zeigler that got involved and stepped up to the plate.
Not surprising IMO. An issue such as this with a single machine would not even register on Cat's radar. At the dealer corporate level it would be a different story, it's their reputation that's at risk of getting dragged through the mud.
I got the machine home yesterday and gave her a good workout .seems to be running great! It's running in the condition that I am not concerned about the machine stalling, dying on me .Sure is a great feeling to be back on my d6c pushing dirt and trees. I have to thank you guys for talking me out of forfeiting my machine to Ziegler caterpillar !I have lots of plans for this machine. Thanks for all the help and comments, some negative, but I know that you all just wanted to see this machine back up and running again and you had my best interests in mind .Thanks again, you guys are the greatest help .This forum has to be the best at helping amateurs and professionals. Good going guys!!!
Did Ziegler give you and oil sample kit to take a sample of the engine oil after a period of time to just make sure everything is OK in the engine? Did they also give you a right-up detailing what was done and recommended first oil change and valve setting?
Some pictures! No,to all questions! Great advice !
Some pictures!!
Happy for ya.. Is that a chrome stack?? LOL.. who says ya cant polish a turd?? LOL!!!!!
Hopefully it's got a raincap and a bucket nearby for sitting off season....don't want to go through anymore drama!! I am relieved and glad it worked out for you Steve!
Didn't Cat have the team that did the assessment? That means they were involved. Zeigler may have stepped up because that assessment certainly placed the blame fully on this particular shop. Zeigler could have known about this thread too. I think Zeigler has to worry about their reputation and how they are viewed by Cat corporate. They probably didn't want to have Cat corporate involved with the mess they created themselves. Glad Steve has a good running dozer now!
Nice..you shoulda asked for a paint job....
Don't know about that welder Dave!All I know is that I have my machine back and she runs beautifully! I have put her through a pretty good workout ,she runs so smoothly and has lots of power. I can't tell you how great it feels to be in control of all that power. Running great!
They did paint the engine Hobby time!!
This post probably had a lot to do with Zeigler stepping up to the plate. They may have not knew about it until late in the game but once they seen it they paid attention. I believe that the shear number of you professional mechanics telling the truth had a lot to do with them stepping up. Hats off to all of you for helping Steve out.
I'm still curious if it was Steve who got the assessment team from Cat involved or did his lawyer help??? I don't think it took a mechanic to know that just everything was done wrong on Steve's engine. The blunders they made were unbelievable for a Cat dealer. I wonder if the service manager still has a job.
I sure hope your checking your fluids BEFORE EVERY start up..?? Did you get you gauges working?? THAT would be one of the first things to do..!!! or the next post will be> "How do I bleed the air out of a D6".. lol
Welder Dave, It was a suggestion from ,if I remember correctly ,Hobby time who suggested that I have a professional caterpillar assessment team come in and assess the machine failure .My lawyer didn't have to be involved ,so that was great!Yes,pumpguy ,I am checking the fluid levels ,everything is good
My hats off to all of you guys too. I really mean that ,this forum has been the greatest help and also saved me my machine !!Thanks A bunch!!
One last suggestion I would give to you Steve is always, and I mean always look at the ground for fluid puddles every time you move the the dozer after it has sat without running for a while. I did and I saved an engine from a disaster. The oil had been changed and the mechanic didn't tighten the oil drain valve. I also saw many puddles of antifreeze that leaked out over night.
Yes,tinkerer,I remember that suggestion you made a quite a few posts back. That is something that I am always checking ! Thanks for the reminder ..
Well I think we all deserve a video of the old cat pushing.... hard to believe this debacle had been going on for this long and it had a mostly positive outcome.
Wow, so a happy ending? I really didn't think that was possible.
Neither did I!I put about 10 hours on so far, all is well!tried to make a video today, by myself, that didn't work out. Will have to get my wife to help.Sure drinks fuel though!!
On a related note, Ziegler caterpillar called yesterday to see how the machine was running, very classy thing to do!
If you are trying to post a video steve: I take the video on my phone, then I download it to youtube. Their video download is super easy. Then I copy and paste the address of the video into the "embed video" on the toolbar on heavy equipment forums. I've never downloaded the video direct to this site. Also- I'm thrilled you got it up and running, that's a great result. I never dreamed that Cat would come through like they did for you. I'm glad I was wrong.
Bloody good stuff Steve. Happy that it's all worked out for you finialy. I hope this thread doesn't go to 70 pages though.
Thanks, this machine is so much fun to run !!
No electronic crap to have to deal with. No deff fuel additive!
Yeah, cheap to fix
The classy thing to do would have been to pay for your radiator for all your time they wasted and trying to make you pay them to take your machine. I'm guessing this is someone hire up and in that case it was a classy thing to do. Any word if the service manager is still working there?
Thanks, I will try that!
Oh yah,forgot about that one!
My d6c caterpillar bulldozer pushing gravel!
thats great that its working good, but I would still be pissed as all hell that zeigler wanted to f--k you out of your dozer and make you pay more for them to take it, that would burn me up inside till I got vengeance on them for that..but thats just me..and just shows how dishonest they were..but if your happy thats all that matters...
D Miller's post about letting Ziegler caterpillar take my machine really made me rethink just what I was doing That would have been a HUGE mistake. Thanks D MILLER ,You really are the person who changed my mind .This machine is running great, I haven't had any problems ,so far, It's really a fun machine to operate!
Woo hoo glad to see the old girl running!
What? Tennis shoes? Come on now Steve, real operators wear real boots. Maybe after another day or two of practice, eh?
Thanks for the video Steve. Those gauge readings looked goood ! Don't be bashful about dropping the blade into float when backing up once in while to make it look real purdy !
And did know when your'e on a long push with a full blade that you can steer the tractor with the blade tilt. It saves the clutch's heap and also you have both tracks driving. Nice to see it doing what it ort to.
Was it Africa or somewhere where the real operators wore sandals. I think someone at Zeigler realized they better look after Steve or they could have been facing a big lawsuit with little chance of winning.
Put her through a tough workout this morning, pushed out a couple large tree stumps and took down a terrace ridge!!Running great!!
I seem to recall some guy on here from over in Africa posting pictures of him and another guy doing some major work on a dozer or loader and they were wearing sandals and got a lot of comments about it!
Now that you have your tractor running well and am very happy you came out alright on it. Don't forget to keep an eye on your cutting edge. Don't want to wear into the moldboard!
New videos of d6c caterpillar.
Is your decellerator broke? I always figured that they wouldn't have put it on there if it wasn't intended to be used. just my $.02
In big tree's like that you have to be extremely careful a tree doesn't come for you. It is a lot easier on the transmission and drivetrain to decelerate before changing direction. You don't want to be down because of tranny problems after waiting so long to get your machine working properly.
Still very nice to see the machine working for a living not sitting in the shop,
Thanks, yes the decelletator works fine ,just forgot to use it. Still getting familiar with the machine.This machine is a joy to operate .Everything is working great My hats off to to everyone who helped me get this machine back and running again.
Back in the day the tranys had what was called " soft shift"or "full power shift" so the engine didn't need to be decelerated so long as the machine was stationary when the selection was made.
It took a little digging but found the following in the operators manual for D6 Powershift machines:
It really is a good practice!The decelletator is there for a purpose. Thanks for reminding me !On a related note,what is the worst that some of you guys have seen ,transmission problems, I mean,from not using decelletator?
You probably don't want to know. For the longest service life use the decelerator. If you have money burning a hole in your pocket slam it back and forth full throttle.
More than likely you will have final drive issues before transmission problems. Running the old 66A D9G's I would only use partial decel when going from forward to reverse when pushing over banks, a lot less time to spool the engine back up and a lot less black smoke. Otherwise it was full decel changing directions.
Used to do the same on 10N's depending on how many thousand vertical feet the blade was hanging over on the outside edge. Not so much with the R's and T's
Have you checked your hydraulic fluid level?. That hyd pump is howling like a starving dog.
Thanks, I will have to check that out
Just to give you guys an update on my D6c ,I have put on approximately 100 hours since almost letting my machine go back to Ziegler caterpillar,it has performed flawlessly. The only issue that i had was a broken bolt on dozer hydraulic ram, my fault trying to grub a stump out at an extreme angle. I was so close to abandoning a good hard working machine due to costs involved getting it back to original condition. Special thanks kshansen old iron habit,welderDave,DMiller,Hobbytime and anyone who contributed to helping me! I can never repay you guys enough for helping me.This truely is a great help forum!!
Awesome ! Thanks for the update. I wondered from time to time how it ended up for you.
We do take gifts, some will take other stuff!!! Nice to hear the machine is working out.
A 1 lb bag of wild rice from the local Indians would be nice!
Anyone traveling through or is up here on vacation or business, I would love to meet and buy dinner!!Thanks a bunch!!
No applause, just throw money! Glad that it's working good for you.
The MN Chapter of ACMOC is having our next meeting/work day in Monticello on June, 1st. Stop by if you can. WE welcome new folks. We have a great group of knowledgeable fun guys in the club. Some help with the work, many are older and offer support and comradeship. Going to be putting a original wood/steel cab on our current project, a 1937 Model 11 Cat grader. Always plenty of food around.
U Thanks for the invite. I will try and make it . Can you pm me an address and time to gather?