It is a cold one up here in Canada this morning (10f)& when we went to start our D6C, there is plenty of power getting to the starter, but it just wont turn over. The starter really jars the engine & you can really feel it & it just moves the fan a bit but will not turn. It seems like the starter is fine, but there is something preventing it from turning over. Has anyone had something like this happen when it is really cold out? The amp meter shows full draw when I hit the starter & the drop with the glow plugs look like usual, so I don't think it is electrical. I have started this machine in weather like this lots of times, when it is even colder out & it always started excellent. Any ideas?
Did you check the rad for icing up just for giggles? Might need to pull the injectors or glow plugs (I don't recall which is easier on that model) and see if it will turn by hand then, may shoot some liquid out if a piston is hydrolocked with coolant or fuel. Hitting it with the starter if it has a locked piston can bend a rod or maybe crack the crankshaft. Something to keep in mind.
It started to turn but came to a hard stop, or every time you try to crank it moves just a bit? Are the battery cables getting hot?
Batteries are weak.
If possible put a wrench on the crank pulley bolt and try turning it backwards by hand then forwards by hand. If it turns backwards but then locks up going forwards I'd then do as Lantraxco suggest and remove nozzels or glow plugs and try again by hand. Have to wonder if water got down the exhaust and froze. Water, fuel or ice could all lock it up solid. If this is a pre-chamber engine I would think fuel would be unlikely, but not impossible. Just don't keep hitting the starter as it could do major damage depending on what the problem is causing it to lock up.
Possible but I would still try turning by hand to be safe. A bent rod will spoil your day fast!
I really don't think it is electrical, just by what I observed. I had no idea that the starter could bend a rod so will watch that. We will try turning by hand as soon as the temp moderates a bit & go from there.
I was on the seat & the helper said that the starter terminal was getting a bit hot. Do not think it is the connection. Just too much current trying to get through.
I'd agree with Lantraxco & ksh. Don't try to force it, pull something out of the head that will relieve the compression and try to turn it over then. The torque of a starter driven by batteries in good condition can most certainly bend a connecting rod.
Just remember if by chance the first cylinder manages to leak off what is causing it to lock up and the engine does start to crank over besides the straight torque of the starter you also have the kinetic energy of the flywheel and all the rotating parts to deal with that can add up big time. Not to mention if by chance you get "lucky" and one cylinder fires!!
Sounds like a hydraulic lock, like coolant in a cylinder
Metalman, did you have a cover on the stack since parked? could be rain accumulated if not.
A good drop in temps will cause connections that were working to stop, if one of the starter terminals was getting hot I would pull it off clean it good with a wire brush and snug it back on... but like most others have said already better safe than sorry - so pull the engine through by hand at least four or five times.
Don't rule out water in the clutch compartment. As said try to turn the engine backwards by hand. Don't force anything. Sure sounds like ice somewhere. I would be inclined to tarp it and throw a heater under it for a few hours and then start checking compartments for moisture.
A tarp and heater I think might be what caused the corrosion in my starter. I didn't have much of a choice though. I got stuck in some wet loam and a couple days later when I got pulled out, the tracks were frozen solid with the wet loam. I couldn't leave the machine till spring or it would have sunk back into the loam. I used a tarp and a diesel Reddi-heater to thaw it out so I could get it out of there. Just recently had to have the starter rebuilt again because of lots of corrosion. The only thing I can think of that would cause that much corrosion was when I used the tarp and heater. It was very humid under the tarp. If you had a block heater or something just to warm the engine might be a better idea than tarping the machine unless you have a really big heater that will dry all the condensation.
Here's how I see it. If you use a heater under some form of enclosure you must ensure that there is an "exhaust" somewhere in the enclosure to allow the moisture to escape along with the hot air otherwise all you do is move the moisture from one location under the enclosure to another rather than getting shot of it.
Supposed to have a warmup here tomorrow, so will wait & let nature do the warming up. 11f here this morning & they say in the 40's for tomorrow. I will try turning it first to see if there is hyd lock.
I dought if the inside of your engine will be thawed in one day of 40 degrees. It will probably be mid afternoon to reach the high for the day and there will not be to many hours above freezing for the heat to penetrate. On a side note you must be a heck of a tarper. I never have had one that tight. I usually just set a piece of 3/8 plywood from the top of my torpedo heater to the hood of the machine. With the heater in the back of the pickup it warms the engine to a comfortable warmth in about 45 minutes.The excess heat and moisture blow out the other side. When dozing non frozen ground in freezing conditions and the tracks are plugging up with crap that freezes as you work I put the torpedo heater blowing under the radiator. It usually takes a couple hours and the mud is soft enough to dig out. I always am happier when the ground freezes and the air is dry.
It warmed up to -3c here so we went back at it. First, cleaned the main terminal on the starter that was a bit hot yesterday & put it back together tight......all good there. Pulled the glow plugs & then tried to turn it over........same thing, so that would eliminate hyd lock I would think for sure? Starter really seems to hit hard when it is engaged, so I really don't think it is lacking power. Batteries are charged up full today too with a charger. Someone had mention that there could be a clutch problem where it could freeze, but it is power shift, so not likely anything to freeze in there right? They are saying in the 40's tomorrow (+6c) so if there is something frozen it should free up. Stack was not covered but it has a curved outlet at the top & it faces away from the prevailing wind. I have never covered the stack before & never had a problem. I would think with the turbo quite a bit of water would need to get in there cause a problem in the engine? Anyone else have ideas?
Yes, my helper said that when I hit the starter it does turn just a bit. Cables are not getting hot now after the starter stud connection has been cleaned.
Have you tried turning it by hand? Preferably reverse normal rotation first then forward? If you keep hitting it with the starter I'm worried whatever the reason it is not turning something is going to break if it hasn't already.
Yes, we did try to turn by hand, but could not. This machine has been an excellent starter in winter conditions before this occurred. We do not have a good way to heat up the engine compartment, but they are saying much warmer here tomorrow.
if you have a torpedo heater let it run pointed underneath from the back of the dozer and the blade will deflect the heat back to the dozer..
If you can't turn it by hand, you are inviting a bigger issue by keep trying it with the starter. For all you know every time you bump it something bends or twists a bit more. You really need to find out why its stuck and get it loose first. Personally I'd heat it for 8 hrs giving the internals time to thaw. You could try to turn it by hand every hour or so. Even if it is not caused by moisture you still need to find out why it will not turn over. Is it possible the starter is locked? Usually a bit of a back turn on the engine will loosen them but on a 955K I had to take it loose and pull it partially out for it to unlock.
I can try to unbolt the starter & see if that may be the problem.
OIH, you beat me to that one, really I was thinking about it but was out to dinner with wife! About once a year my old Farmall will do that, back off the starter bolts almost the full way and shake and it's good for months or years! Just a pain as it always seems to do it at a very inconvenient time.
Of course it had to drop to about -15C when I put the tarp over it. Propane heaters are supposed to be worse for creating moisture where the kerosene/diesel are supposed to be a drier heat but I think it was just the weather getting a lot colder, the tarp not having much insulation value, the heater only 70,000 btu's and not being able to run the generator overnight. I ran the generator about 9 hours and just barely got the bad side thawed enough to free the track. I had to move it forward and reverse a little at a time so I think having a torque converter was good for easing power to the track. Direct drive might have really buggered something. I had a 12" fan to help circulate the air as well but maybe a bigger heater would have made it toasty enough to thaw and dry everything out. Other than the starter which likley got the corrosion from this event, everything else seems to work fine. Just one of those things where you have to do what you can to get the machine out.
My old H Farmall locks about once every year or two. Usually because battery is low from sitting and I just had to try it first. So far I have been able to stick it in 5th gear and rock it backwards to free it.
We are back up n going! Not sure if there is more to this problem though............ Got tired of waiting for things to warm up & pushed the D6C into our maintenance shop this morning & cranked the heat up. Then I took a tiger torch & went around the engine compartment & gently heated things for 15-20 mins. After an hour the engine was free again to move by hand. Tried the starter a bit & it locked again. Pulled the glow plugs again & the 2nd one from the front shot water out (don't think it was antifreeze but not positive) The water theory is most likely as that is why the engine was stuck when we had the glow plugs out on the cold day & it would not move. Sooooo, I am thinking that maybe I am to blame for not covering the exhaust, except the fact that I have never covered before & the stack has a curved outlet & never had trouble before.:beatsme BTW the cast elbow where the exhaust turns to go up through the hood has a drain hole & it did not seem plugged so don't know. Anyhow, it is back up & working again & it seems to not have suffered any ill effects from my cranking against the hyd lock......happy about that!! After I got it going I went to work pushing some snow. Keeping my fingers crossed about how the water got in there, or if it may be antifreeze.............
Just thinking if it was coolant from the engine it would not have froze, so when you first tried to turn over the engine with the glow plugs out it should have sprayed out the hole. Also if it was coolant you should have been able to tell by the color, red or green depending on type of coolant you use. And then again did you check the radiator it would be low if you had a coolant leak. Would not hurt to pull an oil sample and have it tested for coolant.
It was a small quantity of water & it just sort of sprayed out, not really able to see any place where it collected, as the area that it landed on was not very clean.........no visible puddles. Did the taste test & did not detect any "sweetness". I agree, if it froze there is a greater likelihood of water not antifreeze. An oil sample will be a good idea, yes.
Make sure the oil sample is analyzed for sodium and/or potassium. Even if the analysis comes back negative for water or glycol traces of one of the two aforementioned elements are an indication coolant is getting into the oil. Which one it is will depend on what type of coolant you are using. Generally labs test for both anyway - if they are asked to that is.
I still suspect the exhaust. Been a wrench way too long and remember way too many machines was told it couldn't happen to that filled cylinders with just enough water to shut them down. My Allis has a gap between stack elbow casting and turbo but I would not hesitate to set a coffee can on it even as does look stupid or cheesy. Only takes a tablespoon of rain to seal over the drain hole and another tablespoon past a exhaust valve to lock one tight. Having had been hard frozen when outside I doubt was antifreeze, just collected moisture. I am old school and hard to convince NOT to cover a stack on a machine sitting out. Sorry to say I am also one of those guys that will cover a stack on a tractor when trailered or will leave it idling. Seen all too many turbos with bearings trashed from coasting due to drawn air thru while driving down a road.
Yair . . . OH NO! Not this again. It just came up on another forum. I'll believe when I see it. As I mentioned on here years ago I put in quite a bit of time actually trying to make it happen with blowers and what not but such notions persist . . . same as I recently copped derision at a gathering of machinery folks for actually trying to explain it was possible to run a shaft from a modified turbo and feed power back into the transmission. Apologies to O/P for going off topic. Cheers.
Blowers no, but it is theoretically possible with a turbo, just need one cylinder where the valves are both open in overlap. Seen the compound turbo setup, somebody on here had an ag tractor that went south, that one used a fluid coupling I think to cushion the drive from the gear reduction off the second turbo. Back to the OP's machine, I'm betting on blowing snow filling the exhaust and covering the drain hole, melted from the top down and filled whichever cylinder had the open exhaust valve? YMMV
Yair . . . Sorry lantraxco by "blowers" I meant leaf type blowers we messed around for hours trying to make it happen . . . Allis 21's had a six inch forward curved exhaust, I am convinced instances of turbo failure after a long trip on a float/lowboy is due to vibration brinelling rather than any notion of unlubricated rotation . . . I believe an exhaust boot during transit is good practice none the less. The brinelling phenomenon is well understood with very large turbos and an elaborate procedure was once used to centralise the shaft in the oilgap and lock it prior to shipping. Cheers.
I'm with Scrub. On turbos for marine diesels (Brown Boveri IIRC) that were about the same physical dimensions as a medium-sized wardrobe the manufacturer installed some sort of shipping support for the compressor and turbine wheels inside the housings. As it was explained to me the main purpose of the supports was to take the weight of the rotating assembly off the bushes/bearings and protect said bearings from vibration while in transit. Obviously a lot of these items were transported long-distance by sea and in my experience there is nothing worse than the vibrations created by a low-speed marine diesel engine and transmitted through the ship's hull and deck plating.
I don't know where in Ontario the Cat was, but here we've had plenty of rain this fall, and enough of it was the nearly horizontal kind. Blowing rain is much more likely than snow, it doesn't even have to be blowing INTO the open exhaust stack, the water will cling to the surface and get blown around and into the hole. Just go out and watch the next blowing rain storm you get. I bet you'll get one sooner than me, so I nominate you
We had it happen on an ancient Oshkosh with a through the hood stack and a rain cap. Rain cap landed slight off center. It was my salt truck and we needed it NOW. We forced it and bent a push rod and ? It never did run just right from then on.
metalman.. when this tractor finally started, did it hit on all cylinders or was one dead till it ran a little? Hydrolock is a wonderful way to bend a rod. if you got very very lucky, cut the stack off square, then keep a coffee can next to your seat and use it every time you shut it down.
Y'all can laugh but I have replaced a few turbos that rolled on a distance move(greater then 100 miles). Shafts would not hold seals after running just a few hours on the next site, bushings looked as if had been torch cooked with one locked tighter than ****'s Hatband on the shaft. As to laughing at a old man's choices I prefer not to press fate, she hurts me bad enough without my assistance!!
Sounded like it stumbled a little right at first, then seemed fine. The can idea is a must from now on........agreed. I ran it for about an hour after & all seemed ok......think I got lucky this time, or could there still be trouble?
Yair . . . Not laughing DMiller. You are absolutely right. Turbo's going out after a shift is a well documented phenomenon . . . I believe though it is from rotating assembly vibrating against the bearings rather than rotating from the airflow that causes the problem. As mentioned on other threads I have taken time out and tried to make it happen by blowing air back down the stack. Cheers.
Of topic kinda but a good hydrolock story. Buddy of mine has Cummins 6BTA's in his boat. He calls on the radio and says I'll be late my fuel filter is plugging up. Second call I'm coming in on one engine it quit. So I know him he's been hammering the throttle to keep it going. Never lifts the hatch just more throttle. Well back at the dock his bilge has ton's of water in it. Asks me to take a look. A raw water hose came of near the air filter and the engine has been sucking in water till it couldn't take any more and stalled. Pull the dip stick and he's got 2 or 3 gallons of water that pushed by the rings Gray milk shake stuff. He's got no patience couldn't get all the oil out and then just refills it. He says can't I just burn the water out of it? Sure enough we go for a ride and it steams like a tea kettle until it stops and all is well. I don't know how but it didn't hurt anything. He's put another 200 hours on it with no trouble. I guess I should be proud I rebuilt that motor from a bare block. He's overheated it so many time I can't count them. Those little Cummins must be tough.
I would hate to be the wrench that pulls that engine down next time. Water and bearings don't mix well, be lucky if he has not already spun camshaft bearing(s) in it, lots of bushings too on other drives and steam in a cylinder is bad juju as to corrosive/erosive effects. I would not have had such luck to get away with it.
strange what people will do to their own iron.
I think you can pretty well guarantee it. Infernal combustion engines were not designed to ingest water in any quantity ...... Here's a good photo of a high tide in a 3516 ...... this one blew 2 injectors clear out of the heads when it was fired up with water on top of some of the pistons. Of course being a 16-cyl engine it's always going to fire up really easily, especially in ambient temperatures of 80+.
Good example of why I was stressing to the OP about not bumping the starter after the first time it came up hard! At least he was "lucky" and only had 6 cylinders and sub-freezing temps. If my brain is working right, only had one eggnog so far, a 16 cylinder only needs to turn at the most 45º to get to the firing point on the first cylinder and probably much less. Where a 3306/D333 six cylinder engine would need about 120º turn on the crank. Then there was the time we had a 12V-71 Detroit get hit by the "bow wave" off another Euclid R-35 going through a 4-5 foot deep puddle, forget how many rods that one bent!
Probably 9 rods? that was my count on a similar "accident" (Scraper jocks playing games).
I hear ya. If it was mine it wouldn't have made past the first overheat let alone the water ingestion . On his first run the year before, he left some valves open. So the engine sucked air instead of raw water for cooling. I installed two sets off alarms upper and lower. Never turned on the upper key. So it's the first run no alarms, he's not looking at gauges or paying attention to anything. On the first frigging run of the year!!! Ran it until his girlfriend say the boats on fire. It was smoking so bad she was ready to jump. After we let it cool we added like 2-3 gallons of water. No leaks, no oil getting in the engine and it runs great. Only damage was a hairline crack on the outside of the exhaust manifold. It only leaked when hot and higher RPM'S. Unbelievably lucky.
Could be that was many years ago, the trucks had to drive through the water to open up a spot for a new installation of the jaw crusher. They were instructed to dive nice and slow and only one truck at a time in the water. Not sure if someone got in a hurry or just "playing games". As I recall bent rods and cracked liners from the rods hitting them was the main damage. It did get a complete rebuild anyhow.
On a slightly different note,On my D8H/K tractors,I allways tape the stacks up with shrink wrap and cover the elbow couplings up. I like to think this keeps the rain (and wind blown rain) out of the mufflers and the all important elbow and turbo couplings.
Since having the hyd lock problem on my D6C it may be my imagination but I think it may sound a bit different when running & would like to do a compression test on it, before working the machine again. Does anyone know if there is an adaptor available, made by Cat that can fit into where the glow plugs thread in, to get compression readings? The engine is a D333C. BTW, I have a can to put over the exhaust now!!
May just be nerves or just listening more intently since the issue. So long as no knocking, no odd starting noises and starts good I would not sweat it. Can keeps my attitude under control on my machines, what is funny is when I forget to remove it will blow off with a bang! and clunk and rattle!
I just got one of these: http://www.ebay.com/itm/401214600647 It has most glow plug adapters plus some injector adapters. There is a cheaper one with glow plug adapters only.
That one took some digging. I knew there was a special tool as we had one where I worked but not sure if we ever used it. For the prechamber engines there is an adapter that replaces the fuel nozzle/capsule in the prechamber that is basically just a slug of steel that replaces the nozzle with a hole through the center. This allows you to connect a hose to the place the fuel line would go. Cat uses this to allow you to do a leak down test on a cylinder, but it would also allow you to do a compression test. In this case of a suspected bent rod causing low compression I'm thinking a leak down test would not be that helpful. I will attach the instructions anyhow. The adapter is a 1P5569 and as of this morning shows as still available in York PA. for $30.00. Someone handy with a lathe could probably make one up without too much work using a nozzle for a pattern. View attachment GMG00694 - Analyzing Cyl...pdf
this is a great idea just in case the worst (bent rod) might be the deal. never hurts to be safe, that motor would not look good with a hole in the block.
I suppose a crude way of measuring piston height would be to remove the valve cover and measure the valve movement at TDC. Not precise, but if you measure all of the cylinders and you know the one that had water, you'd have a normal range and you could tell if the suspect was way off. Assuming the prechamber won't let you measure piston height directly?
Sorry this one got a bit long!! I think I see what you are saying: Here's one idea. Bring the piston on a cylinder up to near top center, remove the spring and retainer off say the intake valve and let it down to where it touches the piston. Use dial indicator to find top center by moving crank a little in each direction. Then take two measurements, the amount of up and down travel on the valve and also the height of the valve stem with it resting on the piston. Then do the same thing on the cylinder that had the water in it to see if there was any major difference in the measurements. Of course there will be some differences caused by normal wear and how much the valves and seats have been worn or ground over the years. But if say the one with the water in it was .0.0100 different from all the others it would make me want to check things out a bit deeper. Another not too invasive test would be to remove the exhaust manifold and start the engine. If the cylinder that had the water in it blows white smoke from a miss after the others are burning clean that would also be one to make you think. Even less work, if you have an infrared temp gauge start engine and see if there is any major difference in the temperatures of the exhaust manifold when first started. This subject got me to recall a little Kubota engine in a Bobcat I worked on. That poor engine had two problems, failed head gasket and a cracked head, not sure which one came first. I rebuilt it with new head and a resurfaced block, also fitted with one over pistons. I did send the rods to the machine shop to be checked as I was concerned about the chance of a bent rod on the cylinder that had the crack. The shop sent them back and said they checked and they were straight. For some reason this just did not sound right. I then took the rod in question and one of the others and installed one wrist pin through both small end so they were side by side. Sure enough the rod out of the bad cylinder was slightly shorter than the other, not a lot but enough I could feel it when I ran my finger over the two large end bores. I'm assuming the shop had just done a quick check for alignment and not a center to center measurement. I probably should have taken them back to the machine shop but being too busy I just ordered a new rod and tossed the short one. That was eight years ago and as far as I know it is still running just fine.
Pull the injector capsule and you can probe the top of the piston direct through the pre-combustion chamber orifice. Here are some other sources for the 1P5569 adapter. http://www.machinerytrader.com/list/partssearch.aspx?partnum=1P5569&pst=starts
We did run the heat gun on the exhaust manifold when cold & it was fairly consistent as things warmed up. Also, replaced the injector tip on the problem cylinder to eliminate that being a possibility. Seemed to sound better after replacing the injector tip. The "off sound" that I am hearing my be my imagination......... Ordered the 1P5569 adapter from Cat today & plan to do compression test on all cylinders before working the machine. Have a custom made can on the exhaust stack now, just in case the roof leaks!! Is that being paranoid or what?
Kind of a belt and suspenders thing huh? Now you need to put a hook up inside the can to hold the key for the master switch, just so "someone" doesn't forget and fires it up with the can on there.
I hate it when a exhaust can lands on a newly painted hood. Been there and done that.
One year at christmas I taped garbage bags over all the the exhaust pipes to keep the water out. Operators being operators ( sorry guys ) didn't have enough sense to take the bags off before they started the machines. Scared the crap out of a few of them when the garbage bag exploded like an overinflated balloon. Guess who got the job of scrapping all the melted plastic off the exhaust???
We got the adapter for checking the compression on the D333C engine, did the compression test this morning & we found good compression on all cylinders, ranging from a high of 475 down to a low of 450 PSI. I am thinking that is good news. Guess what.....when I pulled it outside after finishing the testing, I put a can over the exhaust!
Sounds good! Was that a "hot" or "cold" test? Not that it should make too much difference as a 25 psi variation sounds good to me. Just something to make a note of in the records and maybe check again in a year as you now have the baseline to know if there is any change.
this is great news! best of luck your way.
The compression test was done cold. Keeping my fingers crossed for a bit yet!
Should be fine. Sorry we had to dig on you about the can, just a simple step for us old hands as we have done this for years.
I know what your mean, every little noise will have you in a panic till you figure out that it is just a pen that fell down in in the heater or some such thing.
Just got done resurrecting a little engine that had starter and other problems today, kept hearing a grinding noise and thinking it might be the new starter or automatic controller.... No it was just a rat had stuffed the fan shroud full of acorn shells and it was picking one up every now and then and shredding it.
I see you have a cured exhaust pipe but you might consider cutting it off straight and putting on one of these......might save a bunch of headaches if someone forgets to put the can over the pipe.
I have those on mine
I've had two engines get water in them with a rain cap like that. When they get worn they can **** and let the water in. Just have to watch they don't get bent or worn to one side.
I like the rain caps but still often put a can on if not used every day. I put a can on even when using every day if there is a call for a storm. I had a engine that hydro locked when starting the day after we had a 50 MPH wind with heavy rain. Fortunately there was no damage put I had to pull the injectors and blow it out. A good wind will open them if they happen to be pointing into the wind.
forget the rain cap, first tree limb will rip that off.
Yair . . . . You beat me to it olddirt those things are useless on a dozer. The can on the stack should be a life long habit. I can remember on more than one occasion driving back to a machine because I had no recollection of putting it on only to get there and find it was on every single time. Cheers.
Cat never put much faith in or publicized much in the way of compression pressures, at least that I'm aware of. Here is some old school information that would indicate those pressure readings are kind of low.
450 to 475 seems ample on a working engine as long as it puts out ample power. A worn in engine has less parasitic loss of power and can make more power than a fresh tight engine.
And after forgetting to remove before starting a couple times one may learn from their mistakes!
Also in the case of this particle engine the major concern I believe was the chance of a bent rod causing a low compression reading on one cylinder. So being they were all rather close to one another that does not appear to be the case at this time. With all the variables involved I can understand Cat not wanting to publish hard and fast specifications as some owners would be trying to make all kinds of warranty claims if an engine was 5 psi lower than some specification.
I would guess that if a rod was bent enough to lower compression, it would have already "shown itself" in other ways. You know what I mean. It takes a lot of side shift in a beam like this to appreciably shorten the end-to-end distance.
I know that this is very much off subject but this is how my wife & I spent the morning, turning the garage workbench into a makeshift sauerkraut making operation........... It takes a few hours of work but we enjoy the benefits throughout the winter. It likes to have some higher temps to get the fermentation process moving, so I rigged up a regular 120v thermostat to power a 60 watt lightbulb to kick in when needed, set for around 75f & house it all in with a couple of plastic bins. Takes about a month to be ready use. Sorry for being off subject!! PS.....have a can on the D6C stack now that it is back outside!!
I was thinking you might be working on some new Bio-fuel for that D-6? No comments on what some good sauerkraut might do to me!
Yummy
"And after forgetting to remove before starting a couple times one may learn from their mistakes! " especially if it manages to come in contact with your noggin on the way down.. like one did for me! I keep the can right next to me in the cab.
Had this cap on the exhaust pipe that doubled the operating noise by rattling and clanking !! A bean can serves well... painted, it looks professional. If I forget, it usually clears the hood and hits the ground on start-up.
There is a better grade of rain cap out there.... http://pipefittingsdirect.com/Exhaust-Rain-Cap-Aluminum_c69.htm
I just had one of those completely disintegrate on me. It looked like it could not handle the vibration and just wallered out the pivot hole in no time flat. I don't know what the problem was.
I've had the one on my D6 for about 4 years (pic from above) without any problem. Don't know the brand but it's well built. The limb risers protect it pretty well because my exhaust is fairly short.... it's possible it could still get hit....just have to keep your eyes open. I can't imagine it making the exhaust any louder.....the only time it might flap open/closed is at idle, otherwise it's held open by the exhaust. They've been using flaps on farm tractors for quite a few decades....if they didn't work they would have done away with them. I've seen the wind blow cans /buckets off quite a few times. They work good but it needs a bungee cord holding the bucket on for safety.
big coffee can fits close and will not blow off. had one of those super rain caps on for about 5 hours and a better grade of limb broke it off, and bent up the end of the pipe. just put the can on it.
Yair . . . D6c10k.. Raincaps are a pain in the arse. Don't rely on them. They will get bent, they will waller out the pivots and rattle and clang and they will stick open and direct water down the stack. Cheers.
There is a reason they are called "Rain Rattles" in the US!
Here are the results of the engine oil analysis on the D6C. I don't know the first thing about reading the results, but where is says "No Action Required" I know is good. The news continues to be positive though. I still think it sounds a bit off but could easily be my imagination though. We put 1 new injector tip in the affected cylinder a week ago. I decided to order the other 5 & they are in now, so hope to put them in early next week. The machine has not really been working since the mishap except for testing, so after the injector tip change out I will be ready to try it out again after the next heavy snow, which will likely be soon. We are overdue for our first heavy snow of the season.........
When this happened to mine it didn't sound just right. Since is was just an old plow truck we just ran it though the winter. Next spring we found a bent a push rod. I'd take a look at yours and check the valve lash while your in there. Just spin them to check for out of round. I'll bet one is slightly bent.
I hadn't thought of the push rod thing, sounds like it might be the last thing you have to check out.
I guess with a bent push rod we could still have full compression, as ours tested good across the board?
Yes if the push rod is bent the valves just stay closed longer. It won't effect a compression test at all at cranking speed.
It could affect power though couldn't it?
Yes it will effect power and make it sound funny. On mine it was really bent and sounded somewhat like a miss and it smoked more.
At least with the compression check you know you didn't bend a valve.
Comments regarding the oil sample results ......... 1. Just like one swallow doesn't make a summer one oil sample analysis on its own is not enough to make predictions or establish a trend. - Note the comment ...... "More sample history needed to establish a normal wear trend". 2. The hours on the oil (90-odd..?) are not really enough to make any meaningful comments regarding the oil condition. If the sample had been taken at 250-ish operating hours it would have been better. 3. Lead (Pb) @ 1ppm is in the range of 0-1ppm that I would normally expect for an engine in good shape. 4. Silicon (Si, aka dirt) is low at 6ppm. Anything under 10ppm @ 250 hours on oil is classed as OK. 5. Iron, copper, & aluminium are all pretty low. 6. Viscosity is low at 13.9 for a 15W/40 oil with less than 100 hours on the sample. Are you sure you don't have an internal fuel leak even though the analysis results show negative for fuel..? If it was me I'd keep changing oil & filter every 250 hours and send maybe 2-3 more samples to the lab before I'd pronounce that engine healthy.
Thank you for the interpretation of the engine oil analysis. I checked our records & the engine had 88hrs. on it since the last oil change, which is when the event happened. Not aware of any fuel leaks internally. What should viscosity be for that grade of oil?
The oil manufacturer's spec sheet will have the exact number but usually it's between 14.5 and 15 (actually 15.6 according to Petro-Canada's spec sheet). I wouldn't be too put out by a 250 or 500 hour oil sample registering 13.9, however I would be slightly concerned at a sample with only 88 hours on it registering the same viscosity number, especially when new oil is supposed to be 15.6.
maybe I am weird but none of my oil ever goes past a hundred hours..
Depends on which oil and what machine but 90% of the engines at the quarry where I worked were on a 350 change, powershift type transmissions were I believe in the 700 hour intervals and hydraulic oils were mostly in the 1400 hour change. Originally we did go in multiples of 250 hours but then they slowly extended using oil sampling to track how the oil was holding up. On an operation like Nige works in if they were changing oils at 100 hours they would need a dedicated rail line to haul the oil in! Just took a quick look at the the intervals Cat recommends for one of the newer machines we had just before I retired, a 980K frontend loader: Engine oil-500 hours, transmission oil-1,000 hours, axle oils-2,000, and hydraulic oil-3,000 hours. They do recommend filters being changed in hydraulics every 500 hours and samples taken in all compartments every 500 hours. A bit different than what some people used to do with changing the filter, at least for the engines, every other oil change, never could understand that idea!
If your machines don't clock a lot of hours it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, because you'll be changing oil based on calendar periods rather than hours. Right now on some of our machines 100 hours is 4.5 days of operation .......
when I get 100 hours many times in less than 5 days as well that oil comes out. I can't imagine what it looks like in 500 hours but I guess it suits the guy who owns it. this is motor oil, btw. who changes it by the calendar?
Anyone whose machine qualifies under the "every 250 hours or 3 months, whichever comes first" I would assume. Do you have oil analysis done on your engine oil..? Some of our engines the oil iss changed at 250 hours, others at 500. IMHO it all depends on the engine model, the oil pan capacity, manufacturer's recommended oil change interval, and experience on a particular job site with the oil and fuel being used. In my experience high-sulphur fuel can put a severe crimp into oil change intervals.....
Would have to agree on that, my remarks were based solely on how most of the equipment at the quarry was used. Basically 40 to 50 hour work weeks.
Reminds me of my old neighbor who had a 1960s car sitting in the field near my house. Can't recall the make or model but it wasn't anything special. In ten years I never saw it move, I don't think it even ran! But by golly he changed the oil in it every 12 months! That car sure must have meant something to him....
Yair . . . Dunno oldirt. Short term oil changes certainly can't do any harm and, in these days of spin on filters "service contamination" should be pretty much a thing of the past. In the days of canister filters I am convinced the less than ideal practices of many owner operators and mechanics introduced more dirt into the system than what the filters took out. In my world (back then) everything got oil changed at around 250 hours with new filters every time . . . it was a real culture shock when, in my ignorance I bought my first Japanese ute (Nissan Navara) and discovered the rotten thing needed an oil change every five thousand kilometers which equates to fifty or sixty hours. Cheers.
Then there are fellas as myself, Grandfathers both worked refineries and both never changed oil just the filters and topped off what the filter lost. Same way their bosses did the company equipment but then again they rotated those machines out every three to five years and did not care!! I watch guys buy into AMSOIL claims, I do not like the use or extended use of oil to that extent, acids from moisture and carbon from combustion build up, engine parts wear regardless the 'Spectacular' additives boasted of resulting in free metals contaminants. Contaminants are what kills engines not old oil, old oil just transports the contaminants. I changed oil on my '99 and '97 Ford diesels every 5000miles regardless or if did not roll much every six months. Tractor gets a change each spring and early fall(both as to moisture build up and dirt levels), my old crawler only works so hard anymore so gets a once a year service where it sits most late fall and all winter. Cars are now under a watchful Wife looking at the automated monitors, she will not change her own cars oil until under 25% quality, I change mine quarterly if not by miles. My Harley gets oil at 5000 mile intervals as noted by the dealer for full synthetic systems now.
I was still noticing what I perceived to me a miss on the D333C in the D6C & went ahead & ordered a valve cover gasket, one push rod & the 5 remaining injector tips (one was changed previously when the trouble began) & finally got a chance today to get it back in the shop to investigate & here is what we found, just as one of the other members suspected, a bent push rod on the exhaust of #2 cylinder. Compression checked out ok so hopefully everything inside is good. When they are stood side by side the bent one looks to be about .075" shorter than the new one. I think it was bending more as it ran more, for when I started it to pull into the shop the miss was more pronounced than before. Anyone know what the valve clearances should be set to?
Can I rub your head for luck? I'm thinking you dodged a bullet if that's all the damage there is. :notworthy
I think I'd be having the head off it for a bit of a look-see ...... because I cannot for one moment believe that the bent pushrod is all that resulted from the engine failing to turn over. Let's face it all it would cost you is a head gasket and a few seals, and you would have the satisfaction of knowing that at some future date you would not be running the risk of an air-conditioned cylinder block.
Have to agree with Nige on this, lots of small damage adds up to potential something else hiding in plain sight. Amazing what a few tablespoons of liquid can do to these engines. The old Cummins engines would lose the crimp seal on pushrods where they would fill with oil over time, would miss like hell as the rod flexed from the extra weight. Eventually would eat the cam lobe.
Hey I win the prize!!! You owe me a beer if I ever see you LOL. With your compression test being so even I think you're good to go!! Even a slightly bent valve would really throw of the test. I'd run it and then retest the compression at says 30 hours or so. Keep us in formed
Valve clearances are ... Intake 0.015" hot Exhaust 0.025" hot Take 0.002" off each for cold adjustment
Thank you for the information OM.
What might you see pulling the head vs pulling the pan?
Six of one versus half a dozen of the other, but pulling the pan on a track-type tractor is a pain, pulling a cylinder head IMHO is easier ............. also it's easier with the head off to see exactly to what point the piston crowns are coming WRT the tops of the liners when the engine is at TDC.
I too would err on the side of caution and be tempted to pull the head. I would be looking at the height of the various pistons at top center to see if there was any measurable difference between the ones in the cylinder with bent push rod and the others. Plus be looking at the pistons and valves for signs they may have touched each other. Also remove valves an make sure none are bent even a little. Seems like that push rod got bent by pushing against something and a valve is the only thing it would be pushing against. Forget the full details of the original not cranking problem, but if it was water in the cylinder and that water was frozen, I think that might be a common thing in Ontario, the valve that push rod operates was under some serious force too. For the price of a head gasket kit and maybe a valve it would let me sleep better at night. Edit: Went back to first post and like I was thinking the temp was 10F on the original attempt to crank. Nige might be in a tropical climate and forgetting water becomes a solid at those temps! And with the bent rod being on an exhaust I can picture a chunk of ice on top of the piston coming up and hitting the valve and putting a slight bend in the push rod that got a bit worse each time the valve opened once engine did start.
We replaced the bent pushrod today & weighed the risk of leaving the head on vs the amount of time it would take to pull it off & decided not to remove it at this time. There is a fair bit of work involved, more than just unbolting the head. Hyd lines run over the engine & some brackets from the hyd tank even bolt to the head. Anyhow, I may regret this decision but we put things back together & ran the machine for about an hour and a half & everything sounded exactly like it should so far............... I have been warned.....I know . I wonder if the pushrod had a slight bend in it from the "engine lock" event & then it continued to get worse. Total run time from when the event happed (3 weeks ago) until we pulled the pushrod was about 2 hrs & it was totally missing on the affected cylinder by the time we got it inside on Friday.